[Article] Taking Stax To A Tournament

[Jacob Orlove]

i would just tip in that each time i play stax against tnt, its pentavus that killed me. survival makes it too easy to get that pentavus, and once it gets there, there's nothing that you can do other than mindslaver, if you play it.

Or, you could just tutor up a Balance.

[Sauron]

I'm wondering why everyone feels that the Artifact land has to be a Citadel? Personally I'd rather play Seat/Furnace for coloured mana.

In regards to matchup discussion:

Any aggro 'Shop deck will be a bad matchup for Stax, this has been known for the longest time. They have Welders for one thing and creature threats in place of Stax lock components which don't work particularly well Vs another 'Shop based deck.

Dragon is a bad matchup also, as mentioned. Dragons mana base is resilient to Wasteland for the most part and they can win with Wire et al on the stack via Necromancy.

TPS and UBr Tog also have favourable matchups.

Otherwise Stax matchs up well with most decks, and as Toad mentioned better than 5/3 in some cases but it suffers from the proliferation of 'Shop based aggro presently.

[wonkey_donkey]

I'm wondering why everyone feels that the Artifact land has to be a Citadel? Personally I'd rather play Seat/Furnace for coloured mana.

The citadel creates a more solid lock with welder and crucible; the indestructability means that it can't be hit with a wasteland in response to a welder activation.

Tom

[Ssapphire]

Hi.

Good read and you have intrigued me to make a reply.

"Lion's Eye Diamond is retarded because It a free real Black Lotus ("real" as in "with no draw back in a deck designed to abuse It"

I have to note that I agree fully with you that it´s all about deck design. Degnerate cards that have unique abilitys and drawbacks that are there to balance the cards power out are often found to be targetted of  abuse. We now by hard experience how degnerate mana acceleration are. Burning Academy was designed and based to neglate LED´s drawback and alike is Staxs designed to misuse Mishra´s Workshop to neglate its drawback. I like the comparsion of LED and Workshop because both power upp other broken spells to a critical mass (different play styles of the deck but my point remains) LED is of course more powerful then Workshop when it had a Yawgmoths Will assisting, and Staxs equivalent have to be settled as Trinisphere.

I know Burning Academy inside out and have also brought Staxs to much suceed in large tourneys and Workshop makes it so consistent that it is scary. I feel it is the same way LED did in Burning Academy that you can aggressivly mulligan to 6 and 5 without greater hesitation to get the embrace of Workshop (or LED in Burnings case). Trinisphere is one of those cards that utilise Workshop to a bah-roken degree and I have the opinion that it is something that is bad for a healthy development of Vintage.

You say you have played Staxs in 2 years and then claims: "And Stax is highly unconsistant, even if Crucible of Worlds helps a lot now. "
You think its "highly unconsistant" and that makes me to question your knowledge about that specifik area of the deck because its one of the most consistent decks out there and by agressive mulliganing you will find a much more consistent way to play the arcetype into an unconsistent state. Draw7´s in staxs lower its consistensy much like the same way Wheel of Fortune is bad in a burn deck.

Much arguments is that the metagame is healthy and we should not do anything at all but even if some finds this dependancy between Dark Ritual and Mishra´s Workshop fighting it out and conceal one another to be a game of balance I and many whom have experienced this for a long time (Dutch and Scandinavian people who have been early exposed) know this by fact it can not proceed as it is now.
If it not yet is so at you the metagame strides to where your choise of deck can be only of those decks tweaked to beat the "unholy trio of Workshop/Trinisphere/Crucible" or have enough maindeck cards that makes it more even, because no opposion without Workshop can say they see Staxs as a good matchuppas  all breaks at most around even.

The "unholy trio" is indeed in the upper tier aswell as above it and Vintage is a hard format to put down to analys as much numbers and info are hidden in the sea of brokeness that happens, you (as well as I) do by certain know from our playtesting of matchupps and decks, how many games you really have to test to get a accurate number of their odds Vs eachother odds (more then the double of what is needed for a specifik matchupp in Standard). But eventually the best deck makes its claim and as we had it early on here starting with the introduction of Mirrodin Block 1½ year ago we see the same have now begun to take place in the US and its effect are spreading more global witch I hope will enlightened an greater number of influential people.

I am not oblivious  about your view of the matter and respekt them and understand how you talk from your own perspektive of experience and I see a huge difference between mine that i think much about how it can be so unlikly opposed  and will seek more insight in this matter in this tread.

Regards
//Kenny Öberg

[Smmenen]

In 2003, Oscar Tan made the same argument.

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=5908

Arguing Workshop on a purely theoretical level
So if we now have to face facts and write off what used to be Academy as too broken because it still has unrestricted tricks from Lion's Eye Diamond to Dark Ritual, it's not hard to see the logic behind crying,"Restrict Workshop! Now!"

What if I put a gun to Buehler's head today and we got:

Sapphire Mine
Land
Tap: Add UUU to your mana pool. Spend this mana only to play blue spells.

Bet you'd put a gun to his head tomorrow, right?

As I explained in "Counting Tempo," Mishra's Workshop is one of the strongest unrestricted tempo-breakers in the game because it doesn't even produce card disadvantage. It's literally like playing three land, and the only drawback is they produce colorless mana, but we've seen how relevant this is to decks that are practically all-artifact now:

It should be pretty clear that Mishra's Workshop is WORLDS away from Sapphire mine.

Here I refuted his argument.  
http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=5978

The argument that WOrkshop is like LED or Lotus is not new.  It has been refuted before and that argument stands now.

One thing I will say.  Stax is strong enough that there may be a tipping point.  What that means it that an environemnt with a certain threshold level of Stax reaches a point of no-return becuase although you can play decks with favoriable matchups against Stax - like my pesonal Tog list, or Dday, or TPS, or Control/Goth Slavers, or Dragon, or Workshop Slaver, etc, etc, etc - that when put in a field of round after round of stax, they can only defeat so many of them before the fix is in.  

That hasn't occured anywhere else and outside of Sweden (if it has indeed occured there) is theorietcal elsewhere.  

Even supposing for a momen that Stax is a serious problem which you assert it to be (repeatedly), don't get your hopes up that Workshop will be restricted.  It will likely never be.  Trinisphere and Welder would both be restricted first.

[Sauron]

The citadel creates a more solid lock with welder and crucible; the indestructability means that it can't be hit with a wasteland in response to a welder activation.

While that is true I still don't see it being too large an issue, after one activation the opponent will have no window to Waste the Seat/Furnace in any case and you can always weld another Artifact out for the Slaver if they have a Wasteland on the table.

[Conan_barberarn]

I really have to say I'm with Dexter on this one. A 1:st turn 3sphere equals a win 9 out of 10 games.

Why are you all saying that you can survive the trini through playing basics for 3 turns? A Smokesack following up the trini WILL win the game right then and there (the CoW may win it but S.S. is for sure). Remember that this is STAX we're talking about and not 5/3 (surviving a juggy isn't that hard, this is when playing basics help).

I also agree with Dexter on the STAX matchup analysis. STAX has generally no particular bad matchups in my view. Among the worst are CS (with maindeck tombs to break trini-lock) and they can roughly put up 65%. Dragon have a hard time in my view since trini really slows them down+ Bazaar tend to get wasted which means they need compuslion or intuition +animate to win. I don't know about the TPS as I haven't tested it enough but 2 Rebuild sounds really scarce to me if you expect to be playing them consistently. Of course every WS aggro deck have a good matchup vs STAX but everyone who owns MWS plays STAX because it's ability to beat the rest of the field.

To all of you who say we should adapt and play our decks better:
I think it's time for the US meta to adapt to the Swedish. I think those of you who owns MWS should put together a swedish STAX-build, test it thouroughly and take it to the next tournament! Whenever I se a STAX top8ing in the US they differ greatly from "our build". Try out the swedish version (after a good amount of testing) at the next big tourney and see what you think. If you still dont like it, let me know...

/Gustav

[Smmenen]

If you claim that stax is so good, and us stupid americans don't know what we are talking about this is what you should do:

Write an article for SCG or even here detailing play-by-play the matchups of many different decks against stacks like I did with Burning Academy.  I had 8 games against stax and 10 against Tog in my primer.  Instead of just claiming it or even showing us tournament data, EXPLAIN it by proof.  Show us how the Stax deck you have beats everything else - write it into article form and have Ted Knutson put it up on SCG.  

If I wanted to show how a specific deck totally beats another, that's precisely what I'd do.  It's not that hard.

Do it like this:

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=5856

[Moxlotus]

I really have to say I'm with Dexter on this one. A 1:st turn 3sphere equals a win 9 out of 10 games.

Why are you all saying that you can survive the trini through playing basics for 3 turns? A Smokesack following up the trini WILL win the game right then and there (the CoW may win it but S.S. is for sure). Remember that this is STAX we're talking about and not 5/3 (surviving a juggy isn't that hard, this is when playing basics help).

Turn 2 mana drain-> anything leads to wins 9 out of 10 times.  Turn 1 Dark rit-spells usually leads to a win.  It's called a strong play and all decks have them.  Let's give an example with MWs going second:

Me: island, mox
You: MWS, Trinisphere
Me: Fetchland
You: spell, me eot R&R and win.

What about MWS going first?

you: MWS, trinisphere
ME: island
You: Crucible/waste or whatever
Me: fetchland/island
you: anything
me: fetchland/island R&R your cards GG.

Granted if it was turn 2 Stack it would probably be a win.  However that situation means you need 3 4-ofs in your opening hand.   Each one has about a 40% chance which also means that the chances of having all 3 cards in your opening hand is 6.4%.  6.4% random wins is pretty low compared to turn 1 kills combo can put up.

To all of you who say we should adapt and play our decks better:
I think it's time for the US meta to adapt to the Swedish. I think those of you who owns MWS should put together a swedish STAX-build, test it thouroughly and take it to the next tournament! Whenever I se a STAX top8ing in the US they differ greatly from "our build". Try out the swedish version (after a good amount of testing) at the next big tourney and see what you think. If you still dont like it, let me know...

I would never play Stax at a tournament, there are too many things that beat it, like 1996 Keeper.  Seriously if a 1996 deck can beat it there are obviously ways for modern decks to take it to school.

Also maybe instead of the US learning how to play the decks (which there are and they aren't dominating) you should learn how to play the Tog and 7/10 and TPS decks correctly to beat it.  If the rest of the world has no problem with the deck(and the rest of the world is actually playing some Stax)  then I would say it is more likely a problem with Sweden not being able to find an answer than with the rest of the world not on board.

Italian Tog>Stax
TPS>Stax
7/10 or WS slavery>Stax

If you can't come up with these then the builds are incorrect and/or the decks are being played incorrectly.  Some Stax players have already stated that they know Stax has bad matchups and have listed these decks.

[Addolorisi]

A 1:st turn 3sphere equals a win 9 out of 10 games.

That's if you're on the play. If we continue Toad's math of 40% chance of 3Sphere and 60% of the opponent not having FoW, that's what, 24% chance of dropping a turn 1 3Sphere?

Further, if we throw out 50% for a percentage of how often you'll be playing first, that means that you have a 12% chance of the 3Sphere coming down in time to prevent the opponent from having the resources to remove it. If that wins 9 times out of 10, then you end up with a final percantage of ~10.8%. Which means that first turn Trinisphere wins you about 1 out of 10 games. If you want to assert that your statement took into account being on the draw, then it's still only 1 in 5 games.

Now I realize I just threw out a lot of "if" statements, but I hope I've done something to illustrate how often this should theoretically happen against any deck with Forces. And I ask you, is that really a large number when compared to the majority of combo decks that exist in the format?

Edit: I apologize if this post seems redundant. I started typing it a few posts back and got distracted with something else.

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

Me: island, mox
You: MWS, Trinisphere
Me: Fetchland
You: spell, me eot R&R and win.

What about MWS going first?

you: MWS, trinisphere
ME: island
You: Crucible/waste or whatever
Me: fetchland/island
you: anything
me: fetchland/island R&R your cards GG.

I just wanted to point out, that while these types of scenarios happen often, it is just as often that Stax drops a turn 2 tangle wire and totally rapes you. IMO, Tangle wire is THE card that shuts down control. It gives you multiple free turns (esp, under a sphere) to cast lock components or draw.

Stax is a very powerful deck, but by no means is it overpowering. I have to agree with everyone else on the issues when they say to check out italian builds of Tog. I mean, come on, Europe has one of the highest concentrations of WS, yet Combo decks and Control decks consistently T8 in the face of Stax.

[Moxlotus]

Me: island, mox
You: MWS, Trinisphere
Me: Fetchland
You: Tangle Wire, me eot R&R and win.

What about MWS going first?

you: MWS, trinisphere
ME: island
You: Crucible/waste or Tangle Wire
Me: fetchland/island
you: anything
me: fetchland/island R&R your cards GG.

Add the turn 2 Tangle wire in there.
Just float mana during your next upkeep and it still cleans their board.

[Ssapphire]

Even supposing for a momen that Stax is a serious problem which you assert it to be (repeatedly), don't get your hopes up that Workshop will be restricted. It will likely never be. Trinisphere and Welder would both be restricted first.

Yes I agree that they will probibly hit Trinisphere before Workshop as its the most non-radical choise and will make a big impakt on the current hiding of playskills of Workshop-Trinisphere-Go, and also remove some of the low-interaktion aka "I Win games". But to say that it likley will never be restricted when the fact is that the abuse will be increased over time and I can with more certainty  claim that it will more likley be restricted. Cards have taken many years by the increasing synergy expanding card pool so that they have been re-evaluated and added to the restricted list. And just look what the Mirrodin block did, its fact not fiction.

"That hasn't occured anywhere else and outside of Sweden (if it has indeed occured there) is theorietcal elsewhere." -ask the Dutch look at your indication of the amerikan T8´s. I know Your meta is different (I was there and played a 100 person Vintage Sideevent with Staxs at worlds last summer) and I can sum it upp that you like more swinging with Juggs than dropping Smokestack and I think it goes against the overall opinion of this forum witch card is a better first turn drop. Workshop aggro works well to fight Staxs but the important point is it does that by also missuse Workshop/Trinisphere/Crucible, and is that healthy? -No.

You say/list those decks and claim they have a good matchupp against Staxs, to me a good matchupp is 60%+, and non Workshopd ecks aside CS.Slaver and ESG-dragon can proclaim those results. Unless the Staxs deck of yours are swinging with juggs that is.

had 8 games against stax and 10 against Tog in my primer. So by 10 selected games you see Prision as a good matchupp?, more important why do you think our result/opinion about this subject contradicts so much? It seems to me you take it on a personal level and view it as Amerikans Vs Swedes or something that way, I try to create a dialog, instead you try to puch down it like it was critisism to you, bring the subject to another level, we clearly have different opinions and I share my view, don´t be arrogant to it.

Edit: I know many swedes refer to "the swedish staxs" and so on I don´t discuss it as that view I mean Prision without Juggs and no Draw Sevens or Five colors and so on when I refer and I hope you dont mix my point of subject too much with just "swedish staxs" and how others that is not me present it, its just an example of a deck that abuse the "unholy" cards imo, and not something I proclaim to be vastly superior to all other builds but something that differ quite some from the amerikan builds of prision and are much more focused on being redudant.

TPS, Italian ToG do you and MoxLotus see Prision as a good matchupp? Do you proclaim results of  about and over 65% match win against it? Aswell the same with Dday-combo? Just because the odds is about close to even does not make it to a good matchupp,

I know other Workshop decks is good against Prision, you seem to see it as we proclaim Staxs to be some kind of "super ultra mega deck to play" my view and message is the abuse of Workshop and its companion even if its not that one single deck that uses it its a good example of how Prision is not healthy for the format. Aswell as Ritual is an example of abuse in TPS.

//Regards
Kenny Öberg

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

Add the turn 2 Tangle wire in there.
Just float mana during your next upkeep and it still cleans their board.

This only works when you're on the play. And even then, you need that mox for it to work. Even if that is the case, Tangle wire just caused you to tap out on your turn, meaning Stax is free to do whatever it wants for a turn without fear of mana drain. Generally, the two cards I hate to see most when I'm playing Tog is Trinisphere and Tangle wire. Crucible and Smokestack don't have an immediate impact on the game state. Trinisphere and tangle wire do.

-Bob

[Moxlotus]

TPS, Italian ToG do you and MoxLotus see Prision as a good matchupp? Do you proclaim results of about and over 65% match win against it? Aswell the same with Dday-combo? Just because the odds is about close to even does not make it to a good matchupp,

With TPS and Italian Tog, yes I do.  And the stax decks we(my testing team) use don't use Juggs.  We don't use draw 7s and have used both u/r and 5 color versions.  I would easily say that TPS and Italian Tog have over 60% win average and possibly 65%.  This is a reason that I won't play Stax at a SCG event, because I think that TPS and Tog are going to make a comeback and to a degree they have.  Rebuild is "the nutz" against Stax when cast eot then win on their turn.  Tog has basic lands and 4 Cunning Wish->R&R or whatever.  Post board they can bring in 6 anti artifact cards and leave 1 in the board for the 3 remaining Wish to find.  It is insane.

I can't say the same for Doomsday, but that is possibly because we don't play doomsday that much and aren't good with the deck.

Honeslty, just go look at an Italian Top 8, copy/paste one of their TPS or Tog decks and play with it for a while.  Disregard the first 20 or so games for learning the deck then keep track of preside and post side games.

@ clown of tresserhorn:  I agree with you.  When I play Tog I fear Tanglewire more than Smokestack of Crucible too.  I was just showing that Tog can win under a 3sphere which Dexter seems to think is next to impossible.

[Smmenen]

Even supposing for a momen that Stax is a serious problem which you assert it to be (repeatedly), don't get your hopes up that Workshop will be restricted. It will likely never be. Trinisphere and Welder would both be restricted first.

Yes I agree that they will probibly hit Trinisphere before Workshop as its the most non-radical choise and will make a big impakt on the current hiding of playskills of Workshop-Trinisphere-Go, and also remove some of the low-interaktion aka "I Win games". But to say that it likley will never be restricted when the fact is that the abuse will be increased over time and I can with more certainty  claim that it will more likley be restricted. Cards have taken many years by the increasing synergy expanding card pool so that they have been re-evaluated and added to the restricted list. And just look what the Mirrodin block did, its fact not fiction.

"That hasn't occured anywhere else and outside of Sweden (if it has indeed occured there) is theorietcal elsewhere." -ask the Dutch look at your indication of the amerikan T8´s. I know Your meta is different (I was there and played a 100 person Vintage Sideevent with Staxs at worlds last summer) and I can sum it upp that you like more swinging with Juggs than dropping Smokestack and I think it goes against the overall opinion of this forum witch card is a better first turn drop. Workshop aggro works well to fight Staxs but the important point is it does that by also missuse Workshop/Trinisphere/Crucible, and is that healthy? -No.

You say/list those decks and claim they have a good matchupp against Staxs, to me a good matchupp is 60%+, and non Workshopd ecks aside CS.Slaver and ESG-dragon can proclaim those results. Unless the Staxs deck of yours are swinging with juggs that is.

had 8 games against stax and 10 against Tog in my primer. So by 10 selected games you see Prision as a good matchupp?, more important why do you think our result/opinion about this subject contradicts so much? It seems to me you take it on a personal level and view it as Amerikans Vs Swedes or something that way, I try to create a dialog, instead you try to puch down it like it was critisism to you, bring the subject to another level, we clearly have different opinions and I share my view, don´t be arrogant to it.

Edit: I know many swedes refer to "the swedish staxs" and so on I don´t discuss it as that view I mean Prision without Juggs and no Draw Sevens or Five colors and so on when I refer and I hope you dont mix my point of subject too much with just "swedish staxs" and how others that is not me present it, its just an example of a deck that abuse the "unholy" cards imo, and not something I proclaim to be vastly superior to all other builds but something that differ quite some from the amerikan builds of prision and are much more focused on being redudant.

TPS, Italian ToG do you and MoxLotus see Prision as a good matchupp? Do you proclaim results of  about and over 65% match win against it? Aswell the same with Dday-combo? Just because the odds is about close to even does not make it to a good matchupp,

I know other Workshop decks is good against Prision, you seem to see it as we proclaim Staxs to be some kind of "super ultra mega deck to play" my view and message is the abuse of Workshop and its companion even if its not that one single deck that uses it its a good example of how Prision is not healthy for the format. Aswell as Ritual is an example of abuse in TPS.

//Regards
Kenny Öberg

Kenny, you are missing my point.

I am asking you to open the dialogue not by assertions - as on this board, which will accomplish little to nothing, but by proof.  Post results - explain, explain, explain.  In my Long.dec (Burning Academy Primer), I took great lengths to EXPLAIN how the matchup played out - turn by turn, play by play to show why the deck won.  

Do the same - prove it to the masses and they will play it.  Then you'll get your evidence.  

The United States is basically three parts.

There is the Northeast - the Waterbury and the Mana Drain Invitational which basically are Control heavy and have little to no Workshops.

Then there is the midwest/South: this is a uniform metagame that runs from Gencon to Richmond VA to Chicago to Columbus - this metagame has LOTS and LOTS of Workshops - look at the Gencon top 8.  The difference is that we have figured out that Workshop Aggro and Workshop Slaver beats stax.  If you look at SCG IV results - what they called "stax" in fact are mostly aggro decks with Juggs.  Few were actually bona fide prison decks.  

Again Make an article - post IN GAME analysis - that is the only way you will persuade someone like me that you are right.  

Stephen Menendian

[Rapalaman1]

Awesome article Toad. I have been a follower of you and your Stax builds since I first started playing competitive magic. I think the traditional Stax build with some of the first components ever used is still the best build around.

[Marton]

i would just tip in that each time i play stax against tnt, its pentavus that killed me. survival makes it too easy to get that pentavus, and once it gets there, there's nothing that you can do other than mindslaver, if you play it.

Or, you could just tutor up a Balance.

U/R stax does not play balance. Is there a good way to deal with opposing pentavus in U/R stax?
Post-side, you have a ton of options, with Hurkyl's being probably the best.

[Ssapphire]

@MoxLotus

Ok, Yes I have been playing both TPS and ToG a lot and also for the Prision matchupp, If the Prision deck are running a complementary set of Sphere of Resistance & Chalice of the Void those two decks have nothing to go for in that matchupp, ToG has as I translate your view a good shot because you are mostly playing Trinisphere and put your trust to it, and yes then you get the results you mention, because as you noted ToG has a lot of cards on three like you firstly mentioned with Cunning Wish & R&R), and Rebuild is the nutz against Prision, but that additional mana the Sphere of Resistance (or the more harder to do but still occur, CotV set to three) makes ToG lose hard in that matchupp, and I have been testing those decks, latest was TPS that I latest brought to a Black Lotus invite tourney where I won in Denmark back in December. In it I have been forced to play Hurkyl´s Recall in the board to try to keep in front of that matchupp, and by that I don’t see it as a bad matchupp but that does not make it to a good one, but all decks are being distorted to try to handle Prision, with a usual of cards is 5 Basic lands, maindeck Rebuilds & more hate in the board.

So I agree ToG can handle Trinisphere good but I wasn’t so clear about what configuration of Prision I’m talking about and Trinisphere is not solely enough and in much sense weaker then Trinisphere in that particular matchupp, the same goes for decks that utilize Rebuild & other three mana answers.

I hope this gives some explanation why I have a different view about those matchupps.


@Smmemen

As I explained to MoxLotus can also be of value for you to get insight on why and more importantly how I get such opposing result compared to you and how our public opinion in this part of the world are the same as what I represent now. We have had a lengthy development of Prision Vs Combo and with the Mirrodin block Prision have the tools to choose from and enough to fight back so the decks that go to success are severely tilted and there is not much room for other more innovative decks in the format. Dark Ritual and Workshop takes up almost all the room (of those deck s that win tournaments).

//Regards
Kenny Öberg

[Covetous]

I can't even count the number of times people from Europe (especially Sweden) have referred to how much better their stax decks are than those stateside, but I can't recall ever seeing a swedish stax decklist.  I don't see how it is even remotely possible that Stax decks from Europe are so much better than US stax decks, and no one has ever shown me a swedish stax decklist, much less one that proves how good their stax build is.  The thing with Stax decks is that they have little room for variation--much less so than workshop aggro.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but all Stax decks basically require the following cards:
3-4 welder
4 trinisphere
4 smokestack
4 tangle wire
3-4 crucible of worlds
1 tinker
1 ancestral recall
2-3 win conditions (trike/karn/titan)
9 crysolomoxvault
4 workshop
1 academy
4 wasteland
1 strip mine
8-9 more lands
That leaves for about 7-11 more cards which can vary, 4 of which are usually TFK/mediate (leaving 3-7 cards different).  I seriously doubt that there are 3-7 cards that make Stax decks from Sweden so good that nothing can beat them.  Basically, it sounds to me like the preponderance of Stax decks in Sweden is the only reason that Stax is so successful, rather than it somehow being so much better than any other deck that exists.  Players over there are pissed about having to play stax or beat stax, so they try to compensate for "metagame envy" by talking about how good their stax decks are and how bad ours are.

So, Swedish people (or other Europeans who think their Stax builds are so much better), please post a decklist that shows how much different and better your build is.  I agree with Smmenen that if you want people to believe you about how good your stax build is, then write an article for SCG about a big tourney you succeeded at with Stax, explaining your matchups and why you succeeded.  If you won power with Stax, write a tourney report or a Euro-Stax primer.  Don't just say "our deck is just better but we won't tell you what it is."

P.S.  Turn 1 trinisphere may be really powerful when it hits, but it doesn't hit as often as people seem to think it does.  Yes, 3sphere-->smokestack is incredibly powerful and game-breaking, but how often does that really happen?  Is it more likely for that to happen, or for you to have to mulligan because your first 7 cards smoke serious pole?  Part of what makes Stax inconsistent is the need for 27-29 mana sources in a deck without many draw spells, and specifically without brainstorms.  

P.P.S.  Is WS aggro beats Stax, and your metagame is filled with Stax, and you can play WS aggro or Stax, why do you play Stax?  Play an anti-stax TnT deck with MD Artifact Mutation/Rack & Ruin and laugh because TnT tends to already have a good matchup against Tog (i.e. one of the other decks that should succeed in a Stax metagame).

[Toad]

Thanks for butchering my thread with off topic discussions. I appreciate a lot.

Closed :<