SCG premium?

[Jacob Orlove]

It would be much better if you could buy $20 worth of articles in advance, and then just have them deduct $0.10 for each one you read.

[Matt]

Yeah, that would be awesome.

[Bram]

OMG like store credit! Yeah, that's much better, even. I'd hit it!

You wouldn't even need a fixed amount by which you can 'charge' your account; just a minimum one (say, 10 bucks or so). One could even charge it with 100 USD, should one be so inclined. It may actually make MORE money that way. Click an article, log in, and have your credit reduced. It's nothing short of brilliant.

The beauty of Jacob's suggestion is that it seems to me to be relatively easy and cheap to set up AND that it can actually be implemented in addition to the existing structure. Either you become a premium member and gain full access, or you pay for specific articles using store credit. That'd be totally sweet. Heck, maybe you'd even have one or two idiots who do both :-P

[CrazyCarl]

As Pete posted, competing with "backpack dealers" really, really, hurts his business. I have nothing against said dealers, but think of those people you see at tournaments with huge binders full of hot Standard rares and extra power.  Now think of what they're able to charge, not having to deal with the operating costs of a store, or taxes for that matter.  Now think, where do YOU want to buy your cards?

The price differance can vary widely, sometimes you'll get ripped off by a backpack dealer just because the availibility of a card is very low and you've got to pay the amount, but generally you'll get what you need faster and for less.

I've seen this go on at countless events and it's almost impossible to catch people in the act, but you all know damn well that people are "trading" cash out on the floor.  Vendors pay a LOT for their tables.  Backpackers don't need to.  All the time I hear bitching about the costs of cards from dealers, online stores, and whatnot.  I know I hear it about SCG every now and again, but what do you expect?  The upside of this is you DO get what you pay for.  Your cards will be professionally shipped, so very well taken care of.  Stores grade much more harshly than most other people, so you're guaranteed that the condition of your card(s) will be what you bought, sometimes even better.

In the end, the online stores are getting boned, but they're still staying afloat which is good.  Running your own business is ridiculously stressful, with every month you're putting so much on the line and if it fails, it's all on you.  Pete took a HUGE hit at the last SCG power event, but he kept to his word and prize structure which is fucking awesome.  If you think about it, $30.00 a YEAR really isn't that much.  Give up drinking soda, or refill bottled water bottles (which you should be doing anyways, but that's another discussion entirely) for a month and you'll save that $30, keeping the status of your wallet the same in the long run.

If you don't want to pay for it, don't, but there's really no reason to complain about it.  It costs way too much nowadays to run a business, especially with the raise of minimum wage, though I'm not sure that's everywhere.  The shittier the economy gets, the higher minimum has to be raised so people can support themselves, prices go up, and small business owners take it up the butt.  In this day and age of the super-corporations and the like, independant businesses are the little part of capitalism that I'm still happy with for the most part.  Yes, I don't have to pay for my Premium account but, at the risk of sounding smug, I think my contributions to the community have earned myself along with the other featured writers on SCG the right to such accounts.

So yes, it may seem unfair, but what I'd like everyone to realize is that article output WILL go up.  I know the new pay structure has encouraged me to write more, and I know everyone else will too.  You will get what you pay for, if not for the strategery value the entertainment.  Especially from me .  Plus Pete said he'd keep issues articles public, which is mad cool.  How many of you have won tournaments because of the knowlege you've garnered from reading the writings of Magic's best and brightest on SCG?  If your answer totals up to $30 + tournament entree and associated expenses, you'll be paying for that info, but you'll continue to make money on it.  Hell, less people will have access to such tech, making things all that easier for you at random.event.

As for the seperate article pay thingie, write an article about it and submit it to SCG  You'll be sure Pete will read it and you'll get input from the rest of the community.  I'd like to see Jacob or Bram take that on as they're very well at expressing their views, but if you feel like you can do it, go for it.

[Smmenen]

Yeah - if you like the fact that SCG has set up the SCG P9 events - even if you don't get to play in them, if you just support that notion becuase you care about Vintage - consider getting a premium account.

[CrazyCarl]

Yeah - if you like the fact that SCG has set up the SCG P9 events - even if you don't get to play in them, if you just support that notion becuase you care about Vintage - consider getting a premium account.

Plus you'll get coverage, and premium coverage means it'll be WotC quality like they used to do, probably with videos, sound clips, the whole 9 yards.

[Dante]

For me, the real issue is being able to discuss the articles here, since the SCG forums are just trash and almost not worth reading/existing.

I mean if most people here buy the membership and discussion doesn't fall off, then no biggie....

[Smmenen]

You know what, it might actually encourage discussion because randoms won't be saying silly comments ?

[Dante]

You know what, it might actually encourage discussion because randoms won't be saying silly comments ?

right, but it will require enough "good" players to get premium accounts to keep discussion up.

[Smmenen]

Do this: sign up now.  Do it just for a month - a trial run and see what you think.  If you like it, get an annual subscription.  

But please, try it out.  I'm going to do my best to be writing my absolute top strategy articles.  I hope it will be worth it.  Try it now and help get the ball rolling.

It can't hurt to try it out.  It's a measley five bucks.  If you don't like it, you don't ever have to renew it again.  But I think you'll be impressed!.  Do it for Vintage!  Support your troops!

[Phantom Tape Worm]

You know what, it might actually encourage discussion because randoms won't be saying silly comments ?

right, but it will require enough "good" players to get premium accounts to keep discussion up.

I don't think that will be a problem.  Many of the "good" players from TMD already read SCG regularly, so they know how supportive SCG has been of our format.  Short of TMD there is no site in existence that promotes vintage like SCG does.  We are having what is essentially a type 1 grand prix series compliments of starcity.  "Good" players, players that have invested the time and energy it takes to become "good" in vintage, the players that truly have an interest in seeing this format, our format, succeed, know that SCG is going to need their support for all of this.  SCG lost a lot of money at their last event due to some unfortunate weather.  It would be a great tragedy for them to discontinue this series next year because of finances.

Now I go to as many of their events as I can, but even if I didn't, I can recognize the value of a type 1 grand prix circuit for the continued growth of our format.  But it's not just about the tournaments.  Their commitment to type 1 is nothing short of amazing.  Front page articles by our own TMDers; a dedicated type 1 forum with people PAID to keep up the discussions on a daily basis; this is the type of behavior that will keep type 1 growing.

I will support SCG because I support what they are doing and have done for the format I love.  For me, this has little to do with access to articles, that's bonus.

The way I see it, I'm not paying for articles on the internet, I'm supporting my format.

[Dr. Sylvan]

It seems far, far easier to do categorization than a per-article micropayment system. I could see a three-category system of Vintage/Legacy, Constructed, and Limited, each at $15/yr with a $30/yr package for the trio or $25/yr for any two, being more profitable. I think the fancy term for it is market segmentation. It would also be very direct tracking of what the customer base wants, with far more accuracy than the page hits now provide.

To play devil's advocate, I can see why they wouldn't want to fragment their market. It could be a major headache to try to keep all three subscription tracks happy with only a certain number of major writers for each. If you got one Menendian, one JP, one Phil, and one Carl article in a typical month, you'd probably be okay, but you'd feel underwhelmed if the average premium content in the other categories was more numerous. I'm sure Knut has enough trouble getting people to write as-is, let alone if he actually imposed a schedule on us (I know I couldn't do it with my other obligations). So do try to consider how small a pie is being split when you brainstorm solutions that work for much larger businesses.

Micropayments or category payments are just that much harder to manage, and SCG does not have anywhere near the economies of scale of iTunes for that to work. For a more directly comparable example, economist.com's premium content can be purchased on a per-article basis for about $2.50, or $90 for the year. But they have half a million subscribers. SCG's readership probably isn't over 10,000. Dealing with that many small payments would probably cause them huge headaches, too.

[Milton]

I think this is a huge mistake for Star City and really bad for the format in general.

First off, Star City has every right to do this.  They can do whatever the hell they want.  They are in business to make money.  Somehow they have had a website for years without having to charge.  The fact that they charge now is odd, but I'll take them at their word if they say that this is necessary.

I'm not going to pay the $30.  I won't pay, so I won't have access.  I'll be much less likley to buy cards from them now than I was in the past simply because I won't access their website everyday.  

As far as the support Star City has given Type I in the past, that cannot be disputed.  I will, though, dispute the notion that somehow Star City has been "good to us, and we owe them".  I'm not convinced that they are losing money on most of their tournaments.  Carl's comments about the backpack dealers is spot on, but Star City takes in tremendous amounts of cards in trade at deeply discounted prices at these events.  They deal, and turn those cards into money on their website.

Carl talked about overhead, but Star City has the infrastructure where they can host a huge event, charge $30 at the door and give away a full set of power 9.  That event can make tremendous amounts of money during the day, not just in entry fees, but in trades and sales.  Backpack dealers don't have that ability.  And if Star City wasn't making money, they wouldn't host tournaments at all.

The irony of this is that many people who don't subscribe will perhaps feel somewhat unprepared for the next big event and they won't even go.  They will stay at home.  Only the dedicated will subscribe, will have the information and, in the end, perhaps only the dedicated will play in the tournaments.  

The players unwilling, or unable, to pay for premium memberships will be left in the dark, will get disgruntled at the same individuals winning,  will see Star City writers winning Star City events, will cry elitism and, in the end, they won't show up anymore.  Wouldn't that suck ass?

[Hi-Val]

I see absolutely no proof that that will happen. People didn't cry foul and turn the PT circuit into a ring of Brainburst subscribers. And it's also not like Star City is going to have zero free content. Zherbus will be writing regularly for nonpaying readers.

People, see this for what it is; one of our favorite sites doing what it can to survive. The other side of it is Starcity shutting down all writing. This isn't being greedy, this is being sane.

[thecapn]

The irony of this is that many people who don't subscribe will perhaps feel somewhat unprepared for the next big event and they won't even go. They will stay at home. Only the dedicated will subscribe, will have the information and, in the end, perhaps only the dedicated will play in the tournaments.

The players unwilling, or unable, to pay for premium memberships will be left in the dark, will get disgruntled at the same individuals winning,  will see Star City writers winning Star City events, will cry elitism and, in the end, they won't show up anymore.  Wouldn't that suck ass?

The dedicated will always win more tournaments in the long run.  If people don't want to pay $30, then they can just spend more time playtesting.  The content has to come from somewhere, right?  For the SCG writers who are on MeanDeck, their information comes from playtesting and team discussions, a model for sucess that is very repeatable.  I'm not sure what to say to people who think that reading a 2 or 3 page article is a substitute for testing, other than good luck.

[Milton]

The dedicated will always win more tournaments in the long run. If people don't want to pay $30, then they can just spend more time playtesting. The content has to come from somewhere, right? For the SCG writers who are on MeanDeck, their information comes from playtesting and team discussions, a model for sucess that is very repeatable. I'm not sure what to say to people who think that reading a 2 or 3 page article is a substitute for testing, other than good luck.

I think you are missing the point.  Our format has grown in the past three years because of openness, cooperation and easy access to information.

I remember arguing three years ago against proxy tournaments.  I thought it would hurt the format.  I was wrong.  We want people involved, so we fudge the rules a little bit and allow proxies.  The lesson I have learned from that is simple; the more accessable we can be, the better our format.  

Just as proxies allow for more entries into tournaments, easy access to information allows for better prepared competitors.  Information allows our format to prosper.  It allows our format to grow.  Things like secret decklists or premium memberships make it more difficult to keep players we have, much less expand to new players.

[Triple_S]

Information is a privilege, not an entitlement.  Secret decklists, teams, and premium memberships will not kill the format, its people being too lazy to do their own testing and getting upset when they get trounced by the same people every tournament.  That will kill the format, the ignorance and laziness of people who won't work to break the format on their own and wait to be spoonfed tech and decklists instead.

/endrant.

(I paid my $30, not for the Smmenen articles, but for the Limited articles they run actually.)

[Milton]

Information is a privilege, not an entitlement. Secret decklists, teams, and premium memberships will not kill the format, its people being too lazy to do their own testing and getting upset when they get trounced by the same people every tournament. That will kill the format, the ignorance and laziness of people who won't work to break the format on their own and wait to be spoonfed tech and decklists instead.

I didn't say KILL the format, I said hurt the format.  

But your argument doesn't make much sense.  You said stupid, ignorant people will kill the format because they are too lazy to prepare.  You cannot prepare without good information.  If information becomes scarce, only the individuals with good info can be competitive.  Most good teams know this.  That's why they network and get as much good info as they can.

The goal of a TEAM is to win.

The goal of the FORMAT is to remain competitive.

A good team must balance these two.  If a team wants to win and keep information hidden, they will not help the format.  Most good teams, by the way, are willing to share info.  If information truly becomes a privelege, however, then the format loses it's competitiveness.  That's bad for the format.

Further, guys like Smmenen have to figure out how to balance being on a competitive team, which limits information and has some secrets, and being a featured writer who is read by thousands.  I'm sure this is a major area of internal conflict for him.  Also, he has the power potentially to provide BAD information to the masses for the benefit of his team.  He has, I believe, even been accused of doing this in the past, although I found those accusations to be somewhat baseless.

I don't think this is merely as simple as "We're supporting Star City".  There is potentially much more to it than that.

[Triple_S]

I really have to say that I like vintage for two reasons:  Winning and the people I have met through playing the game.

If certain aspects of the community suffer because of a lack of information, but I am still winning and having a good time hanging out w/ my friends, well then let it suffer.  Yes this comes across somewhat elitist but at the core of it this is a game about cardboard etc and I have more important things to worry about than the vintage community suffering because Meandeck didn't release a decklist until after SCG, or Ctthespian did a tournament report but didn't attach a decklist, or TSB spied on eBay accounts etc.

Another tangent...$30 a year for SCG Premium is NOT a lot.  It is seriously $0.821917 cents per day or something like that.

[Saucemaster]

Shane, will you be my valentine?

Anyway, let's be realistic here: do we really think that this is going to severely limit anyone's access to information about the format?  The people who are playing competitive Vintage are all here at TMD already, or soon learn about us, and if they're actually attending tournaments, they see the decks firsthand.  And if SCG is to be believed--and I see no reason not to believe them--the real choice facing them was to cut content entirely or go premium.  Surely cutting content entirely is MORE harmful to the dissemination of information in the format than going premium is?

[Smmenen]

Heh.  While I was posting, Justin made the same argument I made here:

http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=342179#342179

[Bram]

I wrote an article on the subject expressing my views and suggesting an additional component to the current system. I submitted it to SCG even though Knut privately told me it has very little chance of getting published as front-page discussion on this will liekly (and understandably) remain staff-only. If I recieve word that it will indeed not see print, I will post it here because I am curious as to what you think about it (not so much the article as the suggestion it contains, obviously).

[CHA1N5]

I'm not going to pay the $30.  I won't pay, so I won't have access.  I'll be much less likley to buy cards from them now than I was in the past simply because I won't access their website everyday.  

For every person that feels this way, there is also a person who will begin coming to the site due to increased content and additional, high-profile writers.  That person will become a SCG customer because of this move.

[Note: I'm not actually claiming a 1:1 relationship between the two, it's just a statement of principle.]

Anyone who thinks this move will fail is entitled to their opinion/predition.  We'll see, in the end.  Just keep this in mind:  more often than not, the sky is not falling.

Anyone who thinks this move was fundamentally wrong needs to examine their own sense of entitlement.

Things like secret decklists or premium memberships make it more difficult to keep players we have, much less expand to new players.

Strictly speaking, these things DO make information less available immediately, but do you think that the format is currently suffering from all of the team secrecy that has been in place for the past 12-24 months?  Before you answer, be sure that you're able to separate what is good for the format and what is good for the Open Vintage forum

[Triple_S]

Sorry Saucy but I am a taken man...perhaps you can settle for PTW instead? or Brassman if you are in the mood for something more metallic?

[Milton]

Anyone who thinks this move will fail is entitled to their opinion/predition. We'll see, in the end. Just keep this in mind: more often than not, the sky is not falling.

Anyone who thinks this move was fundamentally wrong needs to examine their own sense of entitlement.

I think your first statement is correct.  The sky isn't falling.  It won't kill the format, but I see it as something that will do some harm.

In regards to the "entitlement" issue, though, I see very few people arguing about information as entitlement.  Some disagree about withholding decklists, which I see as a different issue.  There are good arguments on both sides of the decklist issue.  Other than that issue, though, no one is arguing that they are entitled to information that is developed by groups or teams.  This does, though, strike at the heart of "entitlement".

Clearly most connected people won't pay.  They will feel that they are "entitled" to the information because they have connections.  They will just get the article from a team member who can CP and e-mail it to them or post it on their private forum.  Or, a team of eleven or twelve will chip in to buy one membership and share info.  To me that seems to be going against the spirt of "helping out SCG".  I may be wrong, of course.  Perhaps everyone on every team will gladly pay, but if my teammate wrote articles I would expect him to share them with me for free.  I would feel "entitled" to that information as a team member.  That means that the non-connected have to pay for information to stay connected, while the connected get it for free.  "Entitlement" becomes a weapon of the connected and a good excuse for not communicating with the less worthy who aren't "entitled".  In this case, the ones using entitlement as an excuse are those who feel most entitled to withold info, not the ones trying to access it.

What happes is that paying for information creates entitlement where none existed in the past.  Paying for information could start us down the slippery slope where openness and inclusion, easy information and access to ideas is replaced with a sense of entitlement (for people who pay and are connected) and a sense of resentment for people who aren't connected and don't pay.

That all aside, I'm just not looking very forward to the akward conversations here on TMD about premium articles.

[Triple_S]

I actually think that the exclusion of people who don't read the articles will lead to better discussion w/o the random comments of people who have no clue of what they are talking.   They are usually the same people who try to pick up Meandeath or something w/ no playtesting experience w/ it and cry when they scrub out of a tournament with it.

[Mr. Channel-Fireball]

I completely agree with Milton's point.  How many attendees do you think SCG will lose if their P9 Series is Premium material?  Think about any business...Pete is hurting his company by not advertising his own event.

I know I check up on Starcity whenever they run an event, and it gets me juiced up to join said event, even so much as to probably try to make it to the Chicago P9 tournament.  

I was given the opportunity once from Brainburst to have free membership if I included them on a weekly project I was writing for Cardshark.  I turned them down because I didn't agree with the idea.

And I still don't.

Sorry Steve, but really, what "tech" have you shared on TMD's boards since the conception of Meandeck? How will this be any different?

[Triple_S]

I doubt seriously that the switch to Premium will impact the P9 series in any serious way.  There just aren't that many premiere Vintage events of this magnitude..a switch like this will not keep people away.

[Dozer]

I have subscribed, simply because I love to read the non-vintage articles. Also, 30$ a year is not much, certainly not for a player who is willing to pay 20+$ for staple cards in the format.

As for the question of information and entitlement, I think it does not really matter. A lot of people/teams will share some content, but certainly not all of it. (I know we don't.) Those who want to read the premium content pay for it, and those who want to read it but are unwilling to pay can stop bitching and go to hell. As for everybody else, be happy that SCG will continue to provide quality stuff for free.

One last point, though: Making coverage premium is a really bad move. That is what will make players/readers shy away from SCG, not the fact that suddenly Flores is not for free anymore (he deserves to be paid).

Dozer