[Article] Meandeck Tendrils Primer, Part One

[Smmenen]

FINALLY, it's here:

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=8825

I know its premium.  Sorry.   But one of the hands in the article is something I'd like to talk about.  I'd LOVE to hear if someone can explain definitively what the correct play is.  

Anyway, here it is.  Thoughts?  Questions?

[nataz]

EDIT: My bad, I suppose trite is exactly what I was being.

[Smmenen]

Please sign up - thanks .  I'd like to use the hand in the article to segue into a discussion of Meandeck Tendrils hands that are difficult and interesting to play.

Meandeck Tendrils is one of the most theoretically interesting decks ever constructed.  I hope that people who are serious and care about the format will support SCG so that we can discuss some of the interesting elements of the format.

[LotusHead]

This is LotusHead. Rogue Deck guy.  Salvagers Guy even.

Team Meandeck Tendrils was goldfished at a tourney in NorCal in my presence.  It was awe inspiring contiplating on the uber intelectual qualities of Magic: The Gathering in trying to decide if Meandeck Tendrils was "uh...it is supposed to win 1st turn a lot!" whilst I played against FIVE Control Slaver decks in a row in a 31 count tourney. (on a side note, Oath-Salvagers, my latest incarnation, would have gone 4-1 if not for a Proxy-Play Error on my part.  Not used to all that Drain Mana as I only own two Drains.)

anyways....


No, not 'anyways'. This isn't a SCG Premium discussion thread. -Z

Actually, thanks to TMD for all the great stuff they've done since I've known about it's existance 1 and a half years agon.  I do appreciate TMD for being the driving force behind Magic's Mensa Status.

(Come On, cut a deal and let us know a LITTLE about the deck!)



LotusHead: Voice of the unknown Vintage Underground.

(I am actually curious to see a decklist and have been offline for about a week.  Not getting to read an article posted on TMD was a heartbreak. The tourney reports in the last two weeks WERE exciting to read.)

All TMD repercusions understood.

LotusHead "I only own Power 7. Of Course I play crappy Salvager Decks."

EDIT: Apollogies.  I was offline for a week.  I did not see that Meandeck Tendrils's list was posted on TMD like a week ago. Sorry.  All animosity in this post is retroactively redirected at SCG for having a great site but charging money for cool TMD style analytical articles and stuff.  TMD, always be free. (sniff).

[Freelancer]

I would love to theorize about meantendrills BUT i'm not going to pay money to read a bunch off articles...even if it helps out starcitygames.com... So I kindly ask smmenen to reveal the hand he was talking about to me so I can atleast participate in the discussion, besides if your going to start a discussion somewhere let atleast everyone know where it's about... (in this case that special hand off yours wich I bet half off the themanadrain doesn't even know about)


Ps. Lotushead writing smmenen isn't SO difficult...just look 2 posts up...

[Necrologia]

I dunno about anyone else, but I've managed to rationalize my subscription to SCG as spending a few bucks to help compensate Smemmen for his excellent articles, and SCG for giving out the complete set of power despite the turnout at the last tourney.

After reading the article, I'm almost positive 4d is the correct play. Without knowing what the opponent is playing, trying to win turn 1 seems optimal, and plan 4d gets you closest to that goal. Comparing 4b vs 4d for example, what better use are you ever going to get out of the chain? Keeping it in hand to bounce a 3Sphere or whatever seems to be planning for failure, while there is nothing in the deck you can bounce that will generate more mana for you than crypt.

Plan 4d gives you a storm count of 7, draws you 4 cards, and leaves you with a mana floating. Out of all the choices, that seems the most solid as it's got a very good chance of winning turn 1. Setting up and passing has an unknown variable (the opponent)  which means it's inherently very risky. While I'm sure it's theoretically possible to calculate the exact right play here by plugging in Dr. Sylvan's data for the past month or two,  I'd just as soon try to avoid any other complications.

EDIT: After re-reading my post, I can't believe how much it looks like I'm trying to be a prick by talking in code. Is there anyway you can clear it with SCG to just post the hand?

[rozetta]

I signed up for the premium, but alas I forgot that I hadn't updated my address on SCG's site since I moved house. Hence the Paypal payment went through but the confirmation failed. I emailed them, but I have to wait for action from them before I can read the premium articles. I'll take a look at that hand as soon as I get in

I reckon it's worth paying for SCG premium, since there are also often great articles up there from people like Flores. Additionally, the live coverage of the SCG power 9 will be premium, so that already makes it a "must have" (although I hope they do a more thorough job of it now that we're paying for it - e.g. like sideboard coverage). It couldn't have been introduced at a better time - what with Betrayers having very little to offer Type 1, I don't have to shell out for a lot of new cards and can put the money over to those guys.

[Nazdakka]

Yow, this stuff gives me a headache...

The hand in question is identical to the one Smemmen discusses in the SCG interview during the P9 tournament. That hand IS public information, and here's a  link for it.

As for the hand, I agree with Necrologia: bouncing the Crypt certainly looks right. The only reason I can see not to is that it's possible to draw (say) Land Grant, Mox off the Whispers, in which case you might want to Grant, tap the land and Mox for mana, and then Chain Mox AND Crypt back to your hand. The odds of something like that happening seem lower than the simple play of Chaining the Crypt back and replaying it, so I'd go for d).

I went for SCG premium because I read the other constructed and limited stuff as well, and I feel I've got more than $30 worth of information and enjoyment from SCG already and it seems only fair to pay them back.

[The Hamburgler]

That post was pointless. Keep flames for you. Warning issued and signature deleted.
-- Toad

[Necrologia]

Unfounded flames and AOLese do not a good post make. Thankfully the sig you went out of your way to point out contains several typos. It made me chuckle at least.

On topic:

I'm curious how the hand turned out at the SCG tourney. You didn't make what in retrospect seems to be the correct play, but that doesn't necessarily result in an autoloss. If you won the game it might skew what we think of as the correct play, but I'm curious nontheless.

[Smmenen]

I actually lost the game.  But I counted a total of four errors made over the course of the game.

I went with 4b and I drew a third Night's Whisper off the Egg and then my next three cards were (in no order I can remember): Mox Jet, Yawgmoth's Will and Chain of Vapor.  

my opponent went:

Lotus, Mox Sapphire after mulliganing to 6.  I knew he was playing Control SLaver.  

What would you do?  I'll tell you what I did after we get some analysis

[Necrologia]

Well lets see here. Your position is:

Whispers, Whispers, Chain of Vapor,  Chain of Vapor, Mox Jet and Yawgmoth's Will in hand.

Mana Crypt in play, and Chromatic Sphere, Dark Ritual, Darkwater Egg in your graveyard. Is that all correct?

Your opponent has one shot drain mana up if you do it right, make him pop lotus on your first main, then go to second and make him take a burn. This will also empty your pool, so you have to be careful to not leave a bunch floating.

Unfortunately, your only source of colored mana available is the single mox jet. Leading with Will is asking for a drain, and will give what seems to be a mana screwed opponent sufficient mana to Fof/Thirst/D.A. That's suboptimal, and becomes downright poor without enough mana to play even a single spell from the graveyard. Assuming I'm correct in that you have only 1 black available, I'd cast the Night's Whisper and pray for more mana. If I've got the game state correct, what other play is there?

[Smmenen]

That wasn't every helpful becuase I misspoke in my previous post.

My top three cards were Jet, Will and Tropical Island.  I already had the Chain of Vapor in hand.  

So given what I said, I think you are right.  But those top three cards present a far more interesting situation.  Give it one more shot now that I got it right.

[Necrologia]

Heh. Well everyone makes mistakes.

So, that makes the game state:

Whispers, Whispers, Chain of Vapor, Mox Jet, Tropical Island, and Yawgmoth's Will in hand.

Mana Crypt in play, and Chromatic Sphere, Dark Ritual, Darkwater Egg in your graveyard.

With a second source of colored mana, suddenly we find ourself with choices.

I'd start with by playing the Trop and the Mox, tapping the crypt, mox, and island for 2UB. Sac the island to return the mox and the crypt to your hand. 2B floating.

From here there are a few viable options:

You could try for the will, then either: go crazy nuts, or go to the second main if it's drained. The opponent takes a burn, and is out of non-FoW counters. After replaying the mox and crypt you could whisper with a colorless floating.

Alternately, you could lead with a Whispers, then depending on what you draw, replay the crypt/mox and try to either Will or Whisper.

Essentially, do you try to draw the counter immediately? Or is it better to see as many cards as possible before forcing the opponent to react? It's also important to note that he doesn't necessarily have a counter at all.

So it it better to lead with Will or Whisper?

Whisper lets you see the greatest number of cards. Depending on what you draw you could then play a second Whisper or the Will. Whisper/Whisper shows the most cards, and costs the least. This also leaves Will in our hand, giving us an "I Win" play should the opponent tap out at any point.

Not playing Will also keeps the opponent from getting 3 drain mana next turn. This seems like the safe play.

Leading with Will is an attempt to draw the drain out in order to play against a goldfish. By playing Will, then moving to the next main phase, you leave the opponent with a single blue mana open, while you can still cast a Night's Whisper with a colorless floating. Goldfishing is good, but unless you draw well on those 2 cards, the opponent is looking at 4 mana on his next turn. That's enough to draw some cards and still potentially have UU open next turn. Should the opponent lack a counter though, this play just wins. Any idea if the opponent knew what you were playing? If he was trying to mull into a counter, the odds of him not holding a drain and/or force are quite slim. Otherwise this might be the correct play.

Given the choice then between Whisper/(Whisper or Will) and Will/Whisper, I'd cast the Whisper. It shows the most cards, gives the most choices, and potentially costs the least mana.

[Komatteru]

Well the first thing to do is toss the Tropical Island into play, so we'll start with that.

It's also important to note that he doesn't necessarily have a counter at all.

Here's what goes through my head:

My opponent has 5 or 6 cards in his hand, and 4 mana available.  He has no land in play.  If I play Will, and he plays Mana Drain, and he does something like cast some card draw, he cannot have UU open on my next turn, as he can only play 1 land, and Lotus and Sapphire are gone.  Let's say he plays Thirst for Knowledge, then he will finish his next turn with 5 cards in hand, and 1 blue open.  This means he could cast Brainstorm on my next turn and find Force of Will and not wreck himself casting it.  He could also cast Brainstorm in response to my Will, find either Drain or Force, and then use that to wreck me.  So that's just a bit of what's in my head.

I'm hesitant to play Whisper.  That will leave me with little mana floating, so I need to draw Dark Ritual or Lotus to keep going with the turn.  Faced with this play in goldfishing, I've often crapped out because Night's Whisper was terrible.  Since there's already a Ritual in my yard, that doesn't seem as likely.  I would have the mana for Cabal Ritual if I cast Whisper's First, but that doesn't do me too much good, since I won't have much to play after it.

That said, I don't want my Will drained, since my opponent has no land, and more than likely doesn't have both Force of Will and Mana Drain in hand.  It seems more likely that he has Mana Drain than Force.  It is highly probably that if I do nothing further of consequence this turn, he will break the Lotus to play Thirst on my end step, and then draw a land and possibly dump a neat trinket into the graveyard.  That seems like the worst of all the situations for me.

So here's what I do.  I tap my Tropical Island and play Chain of Vapor to bounce my Crypt, and then I sac the trop to bounce his Lotus.  If he sacrifices it in response, then I move to my next main phase.  He might burn (that would be amazing), or he might cast that draw spell, which could find him Force of Will.  If it does, fantastic for him.  However, now he doesn't have Mana Drain mana open, and it is likely that he doesn't have a draw spell in hand, otherwise he would break the Lotus to play it, since he needs to find land very soon.  If he lets the Lotus go back to his hand, he probably has Mana Drain, but little else.

There's always the possibility of Brainstorm, but now he needs to find Force of Will instead of either that or Mana Drain, so his options are limited.  Based on what he played, he likely kept a hand based on potential (or of not going to 5), so I conclude that he doesn't have that great of a hand--i.e., he has one of Mana Drain, Force + blue card, or Brainstorm, but not more than one of those.

So the Lotus is gone, so Mana Drain is out.  If he casts a draw spell from Lotus, he has a high probability of drawing Brainstorm or Force of Will and countering my Will.  However, next turn, he'll still have that available, and will now have Mana Drain mana open, and that's really not good.  So, what I do is this

I Tropical and tap it.  Then I play Mox Jet, tap it, Chain of Vapor, bounce my Jet, sac the Trop to bounce the Lotus (B floating).  This is where I can play the rules to my advantage.  If he breaks the Lotus, then he's going to burn or play a Draw Spell.  If he burns, I burn, but I can wait until next turn to play Will, since he might not draw a land, and then I will be able to play Tropical out of the yard and chain of Vapor the world.  Suppose he cracks the Lotus.  I declare the end of the phase, and he plays a draw spell.  Now I get priority back, so I can still use that B floating.  I tap my Crypt, and play Will.  If he Forces, hooray for him.  It was going to happen next turn too, and I have no disruption to deal with that.  If Will resolves, amazingness strikes.  I play the Jet in hand, Dark Ritual, and then start going from there: Chromasphere, Chain of Vapor the crypt, replay, play the Egg and break it, draw amazingness, and win.

This draws me the same amount of cards as Whisper does, but leaves UB in the pool (allowing for Brainstorm and Dark Ritual), sets the storm at like 8 or something, and expends resources from the graveyard instead of my hand.  If I don't resolve Will now, I probably never will succeed in doing that, so I take my chances with that and play the "Well, do you have Force of Will?" game.

I think that's much better than taking your chances on Night's Whisper because your Will is slightly more likely to be countered next turn than this turn.  By using the Sphere and Egg in the yard instead of Whisper, if you fail after the Will, then you still have the Whispers in hand to try to rebuild later, while you won't likely be able to resolve the Will past this turn.

I spent like 25 minutes thinking about this, which would be unreasonable in a tournament.

[Freelancer]

Your reasoning all sounds real interesting and all, but somehow I believe you can't respond to a instant drawer with a SORCERY yawgmoth's will. Wich means he get's to see a couple more cards with his draw...That said the solution off chaining his black lotus is good thinking...

[Necrologia]

He's not responding to the draw spell with a Will. He's letting Will resolve, then gaining priority, what with him being the active player and all.

I must admit, bouncing the lotus is a pretty saucey play, and I completely missed it. I also spent an inordinant amount of time pondering, so this is just one more example of why I'll never be able to play this deck at more than a 15 man local tourney.

[carl]

"Tech wants to be free." - Paul Barclay

Check out this.

Enjoy :)

Seriously, I find it a pity that one cannot discuss this article without paying.
I was already disappointed when SCG didn't allow me to quote 'their' reports for my collection.
Now I  can't even gauge the article :(

[Grand Inquisitor]

Check out this

I know I should be much wiser, but please don't anyone click on this link.  Especially if you've been drinking.

It's another sad footnote in what used to be 'our' format that SCG used to have a completely free site.

[Freelancer]

Does that priority thing actually work? interesting, my rules knowledge isn't that great you kow...

Anyway let's not murder smennen's thread with bullsh*t about starcitygames.com if you want to discuss that go make your own thread (I know I did that as well, and I apoligize for that)...


Smennen I would be interested in some more hands and see how you guys play them out...Reading Jdizzle's post was real interesting, and may show some people why this deck is so difficult to play...

[Smmenen]

Check out this

I know I should be much wiser, but please don't anyone click on this link.  Especially if you've been drinking.

It's another sad footnote in what used to be 'our' format that SCG used to have a completely free site.

I'd like to say our format is getting better, but, honestly, the rate of quality inovation has slowed.  While I think our community has done a great job of maintaining its character in spite of a large growth in size, the recent notes have all come with strings attached...

Ironic coming from the person who has promoted X million GAT variants.    I honestly don't see how you can say that either.  Dday, Oath, all these decks are brand new and new and better decks appear to be coming out all the time.  And I honestly don't understand what you are saying in most of this post.  REcent notes?  

On topic:

The play I made in the tournament was:

1) Mana Crypt
2) Chrom Sphere (break it drawing Whispers 3)
3) Ritual
4) Whispers and then Egg.

The reason I didn't  bust the Egg was becuase I drew Whispers.

But my draw was Yawg Will, Jet and Tropical Island (my next three cards)

I then passed the turn and he went:
Lotus, Sapphire

Now here is where I fucked up again:
I dropped the Tropical Island and tapped it and my Mana Crypt just to get the mana floating.  Then I thought about Chaining his Lotus on his endstep and then I could untap and Yawg WIll and replay the Chain.  

Instead, I did what JD suggested - I chained my Crypt and then sacced my land and chained his Lotus.  He FOWed the Yawg Will pitching Mana Drain.  I don't know whether he had FOW in his opening hand or not.

[Bulls on Parade]

 Dday, Oath, all these decks are brand new and new and better decks appear to be coming out all the time.  

Yeah Doomsday and Oath were quality innovations, but they weren't what our format needs more of. I don't mean that they are by any means detrimental to Vintage, just that we need a different kind of creativity. These decks came about because of new cards becoming available to us, essentially (Doomsday's unrestriction, Forbidden Orchard being printed). We need to focus on what we can do with what's already available to us, because there's obviously a ridiculous amount of undiscovered potential.

I know this isn't completely on topic, but I'm sick of seeing Oath and Doomsday cited as recent examples of innovation whenever someone says we don't do enough with our cardpool. Yes they were nice, yes someone would have built the decks anyway because there were cards to do so with.

Meandeck Tendrils is a good example of innovation, because it wasn't the product of a new card being added to the card pool but was the product of a good idea.

[TrixR4Kidz]

 Dday, Oath, all these decks are brand new and new and better decks appear to be coming out all the time.  

Yeah Doomsday and Oath were quality innovations, but they weren't what our format needs more of. I don't mean that they are by any means detrimental to Vintage, just that we need a different kind of creativity. These decks came about because of new cards becoming available to us, essentially (Doomsday's unrestriction, Forbidden Orchard being printed). We need to focus on what we can do with what's already available to us, because there's obviously a ridiculous amount of undiscovered potential.

I know this isn't completely on topic, but I'm sick of seeing Oath and Doomsday cited as recent examples of innovation whenever someone says we don't do enough with our cardpool. Yes they were nice, yes someone would have built the decks anyway because there were cards to do so with.

Meandeck Tendrils is a good example of innovation, because it wasn't the product of a new card being added to the card pool but was the product of a good idea.

I am not understanding what the big deal is about how a deck is discovered, if new cards keep comming out, they have to be looked at, are you trying to imply good decks only keep comming out because new cards are comming out, and instead of this, we should be looking at older cards for NEW good decks? if thats the case, I don't understand why you would even have an opinion about something like that, the format is what it is, it's COMPLETELY fine the way it is.

[Bulls on Parade]

I am not understanding what the big deal is about how a deck is discovered, if new cards keep comming out, they have to be looked at, are you trying to imply good decks only keep comming out because new cards are comming out, and instead of this, we should be looking at older cards for NEW good decks? if thats the case, I don't understand why you would even have an opinion about something like that, the format is what it is, it's COMPLETELY fine the way it is.

Yeah, the format is fine. Instead of restating my point I'll just copy and paste from my original post to make you look extra good.

We need to focus on what we can do with what's already available to us, because there's obviously a ridiculous amount of undiscovered potential.

Sure the format's fine the way it is, does that mean we should completely stop trying to improve it until we get the spoiler for the next set? When you create a goal for yourself and meet it, do you stop there?

[moxdiamd]

For starters I want to say that I love the Meandeck Tendrils deck.  Very well done Meandeck!  

I've seen Tendril builds with necropotence main deck as opposed to sideboard.  What is everyones opinion on this?  Personally, I seem to like it main. First turn necro of a ritual, set aside 10-12 cards. Turn two is almost a sure win.

[Smmenen]

The necro issue willl be discussed in the next article.

[moxdiamd]

The necro issue willl be discussed in the next article.

ok... yeah.. great.  Doesn't help since I'm not "premium"  

[TrixR4Kidz]

Sure the format's fine the way it is, does that mean we should completely stop trying to improve it until we get the spoiler for the next set? When you create a goal for yourself and meet it, do you stop there?

No, It doesn't mean we should stop trying to come up with ideas until the new set comes out... BUT

A. People are constantly trying to be innovative, and tons of people bring rogue decks to every major tourney and most of them scrub out because they are just inferior

B. Making newer and fresher decks DOES NOT improve the quality of type one in any way

C. I'm not understanding your whole "setting a goal" statement, I don't see what "goal" has even been reached, was MTG nominated for an oscar this year and is everybody content with the way things are now instead of trying to push for a nod next year? I don't remember anybody claiming the ultimate type one goal has been reached (whatever that may be)

Yeah, the format is fine. Instead of restating my point I'll just copy and paste from my original post to make you look extra good.

Bulls on Parade wrote:

We need to focus on what we can do with what's already available to us, because there's obviously a ridiculous amount of undiscovered potential.

We need to? Why do we need to focus on what is already available to us? how is this going to change anything, and why are you even concerned about this?  If you think this is what is important, then make up your own rogue deck, take it to a tournament and win with it.

[Smmenen]

The reason is that t1 is currently underdeveloped given the card pool.  Not enough people are trying to break the format and it leads to stagnation.   Only a few people in this format are actively trying to innovate on a continuous basis when there is so much untapped potential.  The goal is a more developed format with more deck options.

[Sauron]

I spent like 25 minutes thinking about this, which would be unreasonable in a tournament.

This is an interesting comment, having watched Smmenen take his interminably long first turn in the recently posted Waterbury video coverage (Round 1 Game 1).

The audio was bad due to backround ambient noise, so I don't know whether a judge was called by his opponent, but I sure would have called a judge to watch for slow play. As a judge I almost certainly would have given a caution and, barring improvement, subsequent warning, for the length of time taken between spells and so forth.

Is the length of this turn typical for a turn one winning hand with this deck?

If the deck is really that difficult to play then its no wonder at all that over multiple rounds razor edge mistakes creep in that cost games and matches.