[Deck Analysis/Debate] Oath vs. Slaver, which to play?

[IShHmokeDaNKs]

I am in quite the predicament. I am an established Control Slaver player, and have played it when it first was born. However, I have found a new deck to play, Oath. Both decks play out very similar, except they do one key detail different, how they win. Oath plays a more spontaneous win, playing Oath turn 1-6, and wining 2 turns later. Control Slaver plays it much more like a control deck should, a gradual process. What I mean by gradual process is playing a Goblin Welder turn 1, playing a Thirst for Knowledge turn two-three, and pitching something for the win (Sundering Titan, Pentavus, Mindslaver etc.). However, I am going much more in depth in this, a foot long and a mile deep.

Control Slaver:
By Rich Shay, played at Waterbury*

1 Triskelion
1 Platinum Angel
1 Pentavus
4 Goblin Welder
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
4 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Brainstorm
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Ancestral Recall
2 Duress
2 Mindslaver
1 Tinker
1 Time Walk
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Darksteel Citadel
3 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
4 Volcanic Island
4 Island

*(I am aware that Mr. Shay constantly metagames, and that this deck is probably not very similar to his typical builds. However, it is the most recent I can find)

Oath:
As played by Jacob Orlove in SCGP9

4 Oath of Druids
4 Intuition
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Mana Leak
4 Accumulated Knowledge
2 Impulse
2 Misdirection
1 Spirit of the Night
1 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
1 Gaea's Blessing
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Lotus Petal
1 Black Lotus

4 Forbidden Orchard
4 Polluted Delta
4 Island
3 Wasteland
1 Tropical Island
1 Strip Mine

Draw Engine/ Tutors:

Oath:
4 Intuition
4 Brainstorm
4 Accumulated Knowledge
2 Impulse
1 Ancestral Recall

I am a huge fan of this draw engine. Impulse is fantastic with a deck so redundant, a blue tutor, pitch-able to Force of Will. Accumulated Knowledge is great, as you can tutor for an ancestral with Intuition, it has an awesome interaction with Oath and Impulse, and you can occasionally get a hand with two or three of them and win from there. Brainstorm is an obvious choice at this point, as you can put cards back, fetch and see three more. It helps aid mana-screw, and can make bad hands, very good.

Control Slaver:
4 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Brainstorm
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Library of Alexandria*

I really have always loved the decks interaction with itself. Every single card in the deck can go broken, or can play control and dump Yawgmoth’s Will or active a Mindslaver. Thirst for Knowledge turns any fat (in this case Triskelion, Platinum Angel and Pentavus) into a three-casting cost bombshell that gives you card advantage. Fact or Fiction is a draw mechanic I have been trying to fit in Oath for a while now. It is so smooth, however too costly for Oath. This is my main problem with Oath’s draw engine, most good draw and tutors are too costly or a different color. I may splash black, use Mana Drain over Counterspell and put in Deep Analysis and Fact or Fiction. That, and Yawgmoth’s will is a huge proponent, however it will be discussed in the next topic. Library of Alexandria is fantastic, it literally wins control mirrors. However, so doesn’t Crucible of Worlds, and I sideboard that in Oath. I feel the deck with the most utility, consistency and overall draw strength has to be Control Slaver.

Threat-Base:

Oath:
4 Oath of Druids

Now some of you may look at this four card threat-base and shrug, and question me even posting this section. However, it’s solid, two-casting cost enchantment********** for the win. Being an enchantment is a huge proponent, it dodges an amazing amount of hate (specifically opposing Goblin Welder) directed at Workshop based decks. 5/3 still has Seal of Cleansing, but a first turn Trinisphere is a far greater threat. Oath of Druids can be played first turn, and be just as effective as playing it eighth turn. Its durability is withstanding, and it is easy to follow up with one, two or even three counter back up.

Control Slaver:
4 Goblin Welder
2 Mindslaver
1 Tinker
1 Pentavus
1 Platinum Angel
1 Triskelion

What you see here is a one-casting cost red goblin and five enormous bombshells that come out for three mana because of him. Tinker is purely ridiculous; a lot of decks can’t get through a first turn Pentavus or Platinum Angel. Pentavus, Platinum Angel and Triskelion are not virtually playable, however with so many ways to play them for three mana, and Mana Drains in the deck, it is a reality. However, despite all of this interaction, I feel the deck is extremely weak in the face of random removal then a few counters. That’s why Fish did have some game against it (not anymore due to some slot changes). I was at the Maine Lotus tournament when U/r Fish play four control slavers in the top 8, going 4-0 ( I came in ninth :0). Because of Control Slavers rush into things (first turn Tinker, etc.), and lack of an almost excessively strong counter base like Oath has, Oath has a better, more consistent threat-base. Now don’t get your panties in a twist when I say this, you are absolutely right that Control Slaver has more threats. However, will Control Slaver ever play a two casting cost win with 2-3 counter backup? If you say yes, then point out Goblin Welder, then you need to drop Elves or Keeper and play a deck that has answers. If your deck can’t beat a turn one Goblin Welder, then you need to seriously reconsider playing, or your deck.

Disruption:

Oath:
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Mana leak
3 Wasteland
2 Misdirection
1 Strip Mine

This is what I love. Misdirection is one of my favorite cards of all time. It has seen better days, as it is not very useful against 5/3, but it toasts counter wars. Against Control Slaver, I find Mana Drain can really produce more threats you can deal with. So, Misdirect Mana Drain and they still don’t get mana. It is an all out counter in this match-up, leaving you seldom unprotected. It also can be a looming threat. Game one I misdirected an Ancestral on to me, and game two he seemed nervous. He was sitting with a Fire/Ice, which he could use to stop an Oath activation, (he had two spirit tokens) but he didn’t play it, as he knew if I misdirected, it would deal him two damage. This would make my kill 1 turn faster (but I had Time Walk, so it didn’t really matter). Counterspell over Mana Drain. This is very questionable, and I will be writing a topic on which build is better, U/G or B/U/G. Mana Leak is solid, first turn counter of an Island and a mox. The counter base here really supports the lack of a central draw like Control Slaver has. The four strip effects are extremely good. And when I say extremely good, I mean I am trying to weave Crucible somewhere in the deck. That good.

Control Slaver:
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
2 Duress*

Force of Will and Mana Drain are obvious choices. I think people exaggerated how essential Mana Drain is to the deck. If you want to understand what I mean, then try playing with Counterspell instead. Of course I am not implying it’s more optimal, but it isn’t as terrible as many would think. I count Duress as a counter because it is a really rare card. Duress is both passively aggressive and defensive at the same time. It can set up some brokenness and protect you from dieing. It can get you that Force of Will so you can resolve Yawgmoth’s Will, or it can get you their Yawgmoth’s Will and let you live for a couple turns. This is an obvious choice; Oath has a better reactive side, and a better counter-base.

Match-up Analysis: Generalizations

Control: Oath and Slaver has some good game here. Oath has a two casting-cost threat, and a lot of counters. Control slaver has a good draw, decent counters and good threats. Both a very strong here, it can be due to play preference to play one or the other.

Aggro: Oath really dominates here. Slaver has some problems with Madness, and all Oath has to do is play an Oath of Druids and 1-2 counters. It’s a really simple choice.

Combo: Both have good match-ups, as Control Slaver has Duress, and sideboard Sphere of Resistance. Oath has it’s counters to rely on, except against Dragon, where they have enough disruption to get through it. Control Slaver really has better game here, but not by very much.

Workshop: If they don’t play a first turn Trinisphere, you don’t lose. However, there is still the rest of the game after that. Control Slaver has Goblin Welder, which can stall a good amount of turns. If Oath plays a first turn Oath, the game is over. Even though some builds play Seal of Cleansing, Oath really just caps it. I would say Control Slaver has a better match here.

Discussion Topics:
Which deck is better in an environment balanced between aggro and control?

Which one wins the mirror?

Should Oath play three colors?

Discuss which has better draw, threat, disruption and kill.

Oath of Druids verse Goblin Welder

general ON TOPIC thoughts, I really don’t want to see this discussion go badly.

Thank you for reading, debate! Discuss! Don’t flame! (Constructive criticism is very welcome, in fact encouraged)

-IShHmokeDaNKs

[jpmeyer]

Slave beats Oath pretty badly when the two decks are matched up, as Platinum Angel and Mindslaver are almost always game.

[Razvan]

Slave beats Oath pretty badly when the two decks are matched up, as Platinum Angel and Mindslaver are almost always game.

I don't know if that's true. Mindslaver generally will only mean a Time Walk if Akroma resolved, and depending on the SB, Platinum Angel might not be the one all-end all answer.

I think that Oath's got pretty good game against slaver.

[jpmeyer]

If they haven't Oathed, you make them Intuition for Gaea's Blessing and their creatures, giving them Blessing, which you then cast targetting nothing of consequence in their graveyard.

If they've already Oathed, you can try to use Intuition the same way to deck them with their Oath.

[The Atog Lord]

In my experience, Control Slaver usually beats Oath. However, a very strong opening from Oath can certainly beat Control Slaver. The matchup is by no means an easy victory for Control Slaver.

[IShHmokeDaNKs]

If they haven't Oathed, you make them Intuition for Gaea's Blessing and their creatures, giving them Blessing, which you then cast targetting nothing of consequence in their graveyard.

If they've already Oathed, you can try to use Intuition the same way to deck them with their Oath.

This is why I may install Drains over Counterspells, two Deep Analysis, Yawg. Will and Demonic Tutor and a Cunning Wish. This would make it much more flexible, pro-active and re-active at the same time. However, it's still just a theory.

I tried to keep the thread as bland as possible without going into too much detail, and to emphasize it in discussion. So, which deck is better, not just in the mirror? .02 cents? Thoughts?
-ISD

[Zherbus]

Well, Slaver is on top of the format right now and Oath isn't. If you go with Oath, make sure you have a build that will beat Slaver. The basic build takes less than what is needed to survive a format full of Slaver (Intuition or not).

[Lou]

Well, Slaver is on top of the format right now and Oath isn't. If you go with Oath, make sure you have a build that will beat Slaver. The basic build takes less than what is needed to survive a format full of Slaver (Intuition or not).

So are you saying that something like Pernicious Deed is needed in Oath as an answer to an active Welder and the such?  If not, then what is the answer that the deck needs to do well against Slaver?  Should it be maindeck or put in the side?

[mrieff]

Well, Slaver is on top of the format right now and Oath isn't. If you go with Oath, make sure you have a build that will beat Slaver. The basic build takes less than what is needed to survive a format full of Slaver (Intuition or not).

Indeed. Slaver is one of the top decks in the format. Oath was very good when nobody was expecting it. Now that the surprise element is gone, Oath's finishes have deteriorated quite a bit.

[Razvan]

Oh, I agree that Slaver is the top deck, but I still think Oath is one of the worst match-ups for it.

Everything JP said is correct, but often, you don't really have time to setup against a fast Oath, and for some reason, at least against me, I always see a first/second turn Oath with Orchard. Their heavy counter-spell basis also makes it difficult, although unless they get a Misdirection as well, a welder could quite well resolve, making it easier.

Relying on them having an intuition is unpleasant.

[heiner]

1. The 2 color slaver decklists running Thirst+AK+DA are just so much stronger especially in control matchups.

2. Oath has to play with 2 DA instead of the Impulses, to have only a small chance to compete with slaver.

3. If Oath has got 1/2nd turn Oath with counter backup it wins.

4. If Oath has no Oath down on turn 3/4 it looses, so altogether the matchup is in favor of slaver 60:40.

5. I wonder why Oath doesn't show up in T8s right now. Its a very strong deck IMHO.

[virtual]

In my experience, slaver is harder to hate than Oath.  Ground seal probably functions the best, and maybe stuff like coffin purge, but besides that slaver can be difficult to stop, especially if you let it start getting momentum.  

Oath on the other hand can be hurt by spawning pit, duplicant, jester's cap, claws of gix, goblin bombardment, or ray of revelation.  Furthermore, in the matchup between the two decks, mindslaver has mindslaver, which can be the answer to nigh anything.

The particular oath build in question (and because it is the one that caught on) has made oath more susceptible to mindslaver.  I have seen some other lists where 1-3 slaver activations pretty much doesn't hurt the oath player, so either a lock was needed, or oath would win.   Note:  rare is a deck that is completely unhurt by slaver, but some fare better than others.... intuition can really screw you, and as a side note gifts ungiven can screw you even more than that.

With the particular lists you have here, slaver may be a bad matchup for oath, however, I depending on the decks entirely, the matchup can change.  If you change the oath deck to one of the other variants found on the site (5c or doa), the matchup becomes different enough that a new analysis must be given.  However, slaver running duplicant and jester's cap main is very difficult for oath to win through, even if it's tuned more towards slaver.  Given the listed decklists I agree with what has been said, but some maindeck changes, and tuning can turn the match, as neither deck is immune to hate.

[Ultima]

From my testing, between the 2 decks it usually comes down to time.  IF oath can smack down an its win condition before Slaver hits about 5 mana, they can win.  In other words, Oath is on the clock here, not Slaver.  However, if Slaver hits 5 mana before the oath player resolves oath, then they tend to lose no matter what happens after that.  Then there's those times when Slaver just outbrokens Oath and wins  regardless in the early game.  I am speaking only in referance to the Slaver decks with Intuition though.

[jpmeyer]

Oh, I agree that Slaver is the top deck, but I still think Oath is one of the worst match-ups for it.

Everything JP said is correct, but often, you don't really have time to setup against a fast Oath, and for some reason, at least against me, I always see a first/second turn Oath with Orchard. Their heavy counter-spell basis also makes it difficult, although unless they get a Misdirection as well, a welder could quite well resolve, making it easier.

Relying on them having an intuition is unpleasant.

Oh, I agree that the turn 2 Oath with Mana Leak backup will win for Oath more often then not, but the second the game looks like it might go long, it's going to Slaver.

[IShHmokeDaNKs]

Zherbus:

Well, Slaver is on top of the format right now and Oath isn't. If you go with Oath, make sure you have a build that will beat Slaver. The basic build takes less than what is needed to survive a format full of Slaver (Intuition or not).

Actually, the reason I am playing Oath now is because I live in the heaviest Control Slaver environment in the world, Massachusetts. I see Rich Shay, Eric Dupuis, Corey Frasier, Pat Buchanon, Chris Hufnagle and occasionally some Hadley guys. I feel that if oath plays a first turn Oath off an Orchard, it really has a hard time losing. Control Slaver, however, has an amazing amount of flexibility. It has this flexibility because Mindslaver really can relieve them of any tough situation or problem. It's a one card answer to every deck. That, Duress, eight counters and cards like Yawgmoth's Will, Cunning Wish (in some builds) and Demonic Tutor. They are simply more vulnerable, a better combo-control deck. However, I plan on playing the combo half to my advantage. because the deck inevitably relies on playing a Goblin Welder, and basically winning from there, I plan on packing some tech removal. This is why I am sideboarding Cranial Extraction for the time being. If they don't have a Goblin Welder out, I can name it. If they do, I hit Mindslaver, the only card that sways the game to Control Slavers advantage. To do this, however, my build needs some changes:

Oath: Liberation from Slaver(y)

4x Oath of Druids
4x Force of Will
4x Mana Drain
4x Accumulated Knowledge
4x Mana Leak
4x Brainstorm
3x Intuition
2x Misdirection
1x Yawgmoth's Will
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Time Walk
1x Cunning Wish
1x Akroma, Angel of Wrath
1x Spirit of the Night
1x Gaea's Blessing
5x Moxen
1x Black Lotus

4x Forbidden Orchard
4x Polluted Delta
3x Island
1x Tropical Island
1x Underground Sea
3x Wasteland
1x Strip Mine

Sideboard:
3x Sphere of Resistence
3x Energy Flux
2x Cranial Extraction
2x Crucible of Worlds
1x Pristine Angel
1x Fact or Fiction
1x Echoing Truth
1x Coffin Purge
1x Fire/Ice

It's more bulky, and it needs more testing. It may run Duress maindeck.

Lou:
I think the answer should be both maindeck and sideboard. As in, Yawgmoth's Will and Deep Analysis. In the sideboard, you get more flexibility and more threats.

Virtual:

In my experience, slaver is harder to hate than Oath. Ground seal probably functions the best, and maybe stuff like coffin purge, but besides that slaver can be difficult to stop, especially if you let it start getting momentum.

This is absolutely perfectly right. Slaver is a slow, accumulating Control deck that can randomly win by playing T4K, and pitch a slaver. Oath does this, except all of Control Slavers cards are usable outside this combonation. With Oath, Oath is a one card combo, and it isn't usable outside the combo like Thirst for Knowledge and Goblin Welder are.

Ultima:

Then there's those times when Slaver just outbrokens Oath and wins regardless in the early game.

This is what I'm hoping to cure by adding black for better broken mechanichs and tutors. I am a huge fan of your teams decks however, and I would love to get in further discussion. Keep the geat work up   .

Jp Meyer:
I love to read your articles, but your posts are mere summed up preambles of actual statements. You are right however, if it gets to let game, that typically means slaver. This is why your statements are just babble that lead to actual thought. I like it, however, as it intesifies post quality, and makes me do the work   . I am not going to try to prevent it from getting to late game, as thats impossible. I'm going to just try to dominate the late game if it comes to that.

Thank you all for posting, and I took all of your thoughts seriously. I apoligize for my delayed post, but better late, then never.

[Smmenen]

If you go back and read the article we wrote about the Oath deck, you'll see that Oath actually lost to C.Slaver or Goth Slaver if it had Plat Angel.   Plat Angel beats Oath pretty bad.   That's why we ran control magic in the sb.  

I don't think Oath is very good in a control slaver metagame.

[thecapn]

If you go back and read the article we wrote about the Oath deck, you'll see that Oath actually lost to C.Slaver or Goth Slaver if it had Plat Angel.   Plat Angel beats Oath pretty bad.   That's why we ran control magic in the sb.  

That's why he has Cunning Wish.

I think your addition of Yawgmoth's Will is really innovative.  We initially thought it was bad in the deck because obviously Will does nothing if you have no graveyard because of Blessing.  However, if you're Oathing you're probably winning regardless.  It seems like Will would be excellent for those times that you didn't get the early Oath and need to fight back against the momentum that Slaver has gained in the mid game, as well as to play any Oaths that didn't resolve or got blown up by Engineered Explosives.  I can definitely see Demonic Tutor and Will being good replacements for Impulse, at little cost to the mana base.  

At first glance Cranial Extraction and Crucible of Worlds seem really slow, though I suppose they could work.  Also, Energy Flux is much less effective without the Back to Basics to combo with.  Just some things to consider.

Oh, and as a side note, we played Mana Drain from the start - I'm not sure why Jacob's originial list has counterspell in it.

[Wollblad]

The decks are for the moment the strongest control decks there are, but I have to agree that Slaver, from some reason, beats Oath. First I thought it to be the other way round since Slaver wants to play Welders making Oath active even without Orchard. In our testing we added Cunning Wish to Oath's list to be able to get rid of Platinum Angel. It turned out that it was almost always Yawgmoth's Will that made the difference. With Slaver having a slightly better card engine, it eventually outdrew Oath, resolving Will and then game. As already has been noticed in this tread, the games won by Oath were those when it resolved an early Oath  with Orchard out.

Anyhow, both decks are possible candidates for including Disrupting Shoal, replacing Misdirection in Oath. This makes the decks better against TPS and far better against Stax and other decks playing Trinisphere. In Slaver however, Shoal messes up the deck list and leaves no room for Intuition/Accu. In my experience, Shoal does not alter the matchup statistics between Oath and Slaver, but makes Oath much better against some fast decks.

1) What is your thoughts on including Disrupting Shoal in these decks?
2) Is the possible inclusion of Disrupting Shoal in these decks change the choise from Slaver (which most people seem to prefer) to Oath?

[IShHmokeDaNKs]

Smemmen:

If you go back and read the article we wrote about the Oath deck, you'll see that Oath actually lost to C.Slaver or Goth Slaver if it had Plat Angel. Plat Angel beats Oath pretty bad. That's why we ran control magic in the sb.

I read the article, and saw the inclusion of Control Magic. However, I felt it was a weak card, as Control Slaver is extremely flexible, and can probable find a way to get it back (i.e weld it out, Cunning Wish, Echoing Truth). So, the only better response is to remove it from the game. However, Swords to Plowshares is too weak for the job, as it would be at the expense of a turn later kill, which can lose you the game if they activate a slaver. I really have to think hard on this one, however I am testing Recipricate now.

thecapn:

At first glance Cranial Extraction and Crucible of Worlds seem really slow, though I suppose they could work. Also, Energy Flux is much less effective without the Back to Basics to combo with. Just some things to consider.

Cranial Extraction and Crucible of Worlds are testing slots to try and dominate the mid-game against most control decks. I completely understand what you are saying about B2B, and I think you are right. However, I don't see any workshops unless they are played in 5/3. Against  5/3, Energy Flux can typically do the trick.

I think your addition of Yawgmoth's Will is really innovative. We initially thought it was bad in the deck because obviously Will does nothing if you have no graveyard because of Blessing. However, if you're Oathing you're probably winning regardless.

Exactly. If you are Oathing, you really have a hard time losing. If you aren't Oathing, you are Willing. I am probably cutting Gaea's Blessing. I don't know if I will lose games as a result of this, but I may win some as well. It makes the kill a turn faster, if you have will in hand. You mill your deck to find the first creature, dumping some goodness in the yard. Then, Will is game. The only problem is, Control Slaver can set up will through Fact or Fiction and Thirst for Knowledge. I am having trouble doing this, except when I Intuition for Black Lotus, Time Walk and Ancestral Recall  :lol: .

Wollblad:

What is your thoughts on including Disrupting Shoal in these decks?

Disrupting Shoal can be placed in a modified version of both of these decks, but I don't think it's good. Both decks are established Control decks, with stronger counters and disruption than that.

Is the possible inclusion of Disrupting Shoal in these decks change the choise from Slaver (which most people seem to prefer) to Oath?

Possibly, but I think running black will do the same but better. I am really working on going two ways like Control Slaver, which can combo you out (Will, Tinker etc.) and has an amazing draw engine with strong disruption (Mindslaver, 10 disruption, 10-16 draw etc.).  I don't think Disrupting Shoal can split the difference.

Thank you all for your thoughts, I am very impressed in general here. Most people claim The Mana Drain members are mean, etc. I always thought if a post has edicut, punctuation and modern decks, it can thrive.

[jpmeyer]

You do also need to remember though that if you knock them to zero with the angel of your choice before you try to Control Magic the Welder, it doesn't matter if they can get it back.

[IShHmokeDaNKs]

JP Meyer:
I realize I may be new here, which is an explanation for your blindness. Platinum Angel is not the card that beats oatyh, actually, not even close to it. There is no single card, not one, that can shut down a solid control deck. This is what I am trying to do with your Oath. Control Slaver beats oath because it's a solid control deck. I play in New England, the most Control Slaver infected meta in the world. I have played with and against the deck in more games you have ever played (yes, I know who you are, and please, please don't take this to any offense) but I know the deck inside and out. Control Magic is almost a joke. I understand it's uses in formal format, but thats not the problem I have. I can smoke aggro, I need a card that specifically hates Control Slaver. This test card is Cranial Extraction now, but it will probably change soon. I don't lose to Platinum Angel, like no control deck should. I play Oath to beat control slaver, and that's what I am going to do. I am, however, extremely reasonable. I love to hear what your thoughts are, but I am not at all impressed that when I am talking about taking the mid to late game away from Slaver, and you tell me that Control Magic wins you the game against Platinum when they are at <0...... To say the least I am extremely unimpressed. Now stop treating me like an idiot (or a newb as people say nowadays) and lets talk strategic. Instead of giving me a situational card in a specific position, Cunning Wish is the same, except it fits every position (with the right toolbox) except it taks one slot. Come on now, challenge me, I will write a report on a tournament at Cape Cod in two weeks, and Cape Cod has more Control Slavers than JP Meyer-land. If I lose the tournament and to Control Slaver, maybe my attempt at optimizing the deck is futile. However Mr. Meyer, or The New Pope, it would be a sad thing to see this deck surpassed by another, especailly considering how much work meandeck, and myself have worked on it. I do like your style, you type posts that intise thought, however I find this to be a result of your thoughtless posts. In short, laziness is techzor.

[Moxlotus]

You sound awfully harsh against JP.  I'd tone it down a bit because since he helped design your deck I'd assume he has some knowledge of it.

Anyways, how do you deal with a Platinum Angel efficiently without Control Magic?  In your entire rant about how CM sucks or how no control deck can lose to it you failed to show how any alternative is better--or even mention any alternative to deal with that specific threat.

[IShHmokeDaNKs]

You sound awfully harsh against JP.  I'd tone it down a bit because since he helped design your deck I'd assume he has some knowledge of it.

Anyways, how do you deal with a Platinum Angel efficiently without Control Magic?  In your entire rant about how CM sucks or how no control deck can lose to it you failed to show how any alternative is better--or even mention any alternative to deal with that specific threat.

Let's disect this. I was awfully harsh against JP, but I was not harsh against him from helping me with the deck. I was harsh against him as on this site, if you lack a reputation and number of quality posts, then you are treated like a noob. For example, I talked about taking the late game away from slaver, so JP responded that if you Control Magic a Platinum Angel while they are at negative, you win.

...

...

See what I mean? Now, onto the next discussion, which is more on-topic:

I figured you would have read my previous post, displaying my new, revamped list that can take the mid-game back for Oath. In this build, I run an answer maindecked, Cunning Wish. I then Cunning Wish for Echoing Truth, Stifle etc, whatever fills the requirements in the specific situation. This is my proposed answer to not only Platinum Angel, but just a problem that the deck faces.

I do apoligize to JP, he was just trying to help, but it looked like this to me:

me: Because Control Slaver can dominate you late game through Mindslaver and Platinum Angel, I am attempting to take back the mid-game. I will do this through Yawgmoth's Will, Crucible of Worlds and Cranial Extraction. I don't have a problem with Platinum Angel as I have Cunning Wish.

JP: If you Control Magic a Platinum Angel while they have it, and they are at negative, they lose.
...
Understand?

[Moxlotus]

 was harsh against him as on this site, if you lack a reputation and number of quality posts, then you are treated like a noob.

To be fair, 90% of people are noobs when they first come to this site.  I was.  I mean, look at some of the threads that get locked as soon as the first mod sees it.  You gain respect from good work.  When you get a job, you are treated as the bitch at first.  You work your way up through good work until people take everything you say with deep thought.  When you are the new guy people will listen to you, but are more suspicious due to lack of credentials.  

Also, is it worth the maindeck AND sideboard slots for Cunning Wish/answer?  Rather than having only sideboarded slots, you have used precious maindeck spaces-which may be the best call because you can do something game 1.  However, this also reduces redundancy in the deck.  Control Magic also gives you a beatstick and creates a greater tempo swing than does C-Wish->bounce.  Cunning Wish is also a less than stellar maindeck slot against other decks, as without red or white (and black if you run U/g) you are very limited for Wish targets.  This will usually end up meaning C-Wish will be sided out a lot and having maindeck cards tht aren't that good against most decks blows ass.

[MisterShark]

Dunno if talk of sideboarding options has been strictly frowned upon in this thread, but...

... at the risk of either missing something with my suggested card's interactions or being champion of the obvious: what about Damping Matrix?

It should be castable fairly early for the Oath player via artifact mana support or Drain support, and if defended successfully, should buy the necessary time.

[Avangel]

Insted of Control Magic you could slap a Grab the Reigns into your SB.  You could Cunning Wish for it if you need it.  

It could serve 2 purposes.   Steal a Angel or Gobbie from your opponent ot toss a SoTN across the board after your attack phase for the kill.

[Wollblad]

Also, is it worth the maindeck AND sideboard slots for Cunning Wish/answer?  Rather than having only sideboarded slots, you have used precious maindeck spaces-which may be the best call because you can do something game 1.  However, this also reduces redundancy in the deck.  Control Magic also gives you a beatstick and creates a greater tempo swing than does C-Wish->bounce.  Cunning Wish is also a less than stellar maindeck slot against other decks, as without red or white (and black if you run U/g) you are very limited for Wish targets.  This will usually end up meaning C-Wish will be sided out a lot and having maindeck cards tht aren't that good against most decks blows ass.

The only wishtargets I used were BEB and Naturalize. FoW and Misdirection also gives you new targets as the game goes on. It is however true that the sideboard space is very limited and therefore Cunning Wish should be used only if you have a lot of Stax, WS-aggro and Slaver in your meta game, otherwise the last sentence in the quote will be quite true. I'm however not sure that Control Magic is better since it does not solve the core problem: better draw engine and Yawgmoth's Will. Slaver can play Thirst instead of Accu (noone wants to play the first Accu) and instead Oath has to take the first step taking an awful risk. Inclusion of black solves this problem by adding Duress which is very strong in the Accu-fights.

@MisterShark
Ground Seal works almost as well. Sure, it does not stop Mind Slaver, but it costs one less and lets you draw a card. As a sideeffect Ground Seal is very good against Dragon and Cerebral Assassin. Not that you encounter many of those, but if you do, you will have something to sideboard in.

[Ultima]

Maybe my testing and yours differ a little but there are some things I thinkn you need to re-evaluate about the Slaver (again only intuition slaver) versus Oath matchup.  The problem that Oath has with GothSlaver isn't about taking back the mid-game, its about actually going to the mid-game itself.  If you really have tested against GothSlaver alot, you would know that once Gothslaver hits a certain mana standpoint, it will win whether you resolve an oath or not.  Its the primary reason why Slaver is probably the best deck in T1 right now.  Again, unless you get that oath out before the mid-game, you'll lose to Gothslaver because they let oath resolve, play intution and win.  There are several reasons why this occurs.

A. The oath player can't play his aks because Slaver will draw off them and just win from sheer hand size.  Oath doesn't have any other draw besides aks mostly while Slaver has TFK and DA to play out.

B. Oath has an inherent topdecking deck problem because of its strategy.  If you notice when your playing oath, that you only topdeck either land or counters.  Slaver is topdecking draw and threats, and because of its synergy, the draw is just as much a threat as the artifacts themselves.

C. Again as most have said, Platz buys a lot of time.  I don't how you can say that cunning wish is enough to deal with platz or welders.  What do you do when the wish and will get tossed after an oath and they resolve platz.  More wishes is another route to test.

Trust me, oath problem isn't that it can't win the mid-game, its that there is a mid-game

[Demonic Attorney]

IShHmokeDaNKs:

Platinum Angel is not the card that beats oatyh, actually, not even close to it.

I promised myself I wouldn't post on here until after I got 2nd semester outlines for Con Law and Contracts started, but I can't keep silent about this.  From a "noob", to a "noob", in an abrasive tone similar to the one in which you addressed other posters in this thread:  

Your assertion that Platinum Angel is not the central determining factor in the Oath vs. Slaver matchup is demonstrably false.  I have played Slaver in the New England metagame for the better part of a year at this point, and have played in and observed numerous Oath/Slaver games.  Looking back on the trajectory of those games, I can't think of a single one that wasn't determined by Platinum Angel.  Not one.  If Angel hit, Oath lost.  If it didn't, Oath won--without exception.

Just two weeks ago I played vs. Oath to qualify for the top 8 at the Grand Prix Mox event, and won the match because I was able to force out Platinum Angel the turn before I would have died in games two and three.  Standard Oath builds simply cannot deal with Platinum Angel, and can only sit back and wait to be Slaved and beaten once it comes down.  

While JPMeyer is correct in saying that Control Magic becomes a much more viable answer to Platinum Angel if the Slaver player is already at 0, experience has shown that even this situation is usually not enough to give the game to Oath.  Yes, a Slaver player at 0 life dies as a state-based effect if they lose their Angel, so getting it back isn't an option.  And yes, a Slaver player at 0 has effectively had their maindeck counterspell reserve cut in half since they can no longer pay the 1 life to pitch-cast Force of Will.

However, other considerations still place the situation in the Slaver player's favor.  First, a good portion of Slaver players sideboard in Red Elemental Blast against Oath decks since REB allows them to punch through Oath's counter base more effectively, and REB will remain available to a Slaver player at 0 life as a means of countering Control Magic.  Second, Slaver's draw engine is its chief asset in my opinion, and it is just better than Oath's.  Thirst for Knowledge and Brainstorm (plus occasionally finding Library of Alexandria) allow Slaver to build up their hand more quickly than Oath, especially if Oath has already expended a good deal of resources in forcing out an Oath of Druids to knock the Slaver player to 0 in the first place.  Thus, having a deck that is innately faster at obtaining counterspells and/or additional threats, Slaver is in an advantageous position against Oath with Angel on the board, because generally speaking, they will be able to build up an advantage long before an Oath player is able to find their 1 or 2 answers.

With respect to your revised decklist, I can't comment with any forceful authority since I haven't played against it, but I don't think it will fare significantly better against Slaver than existing Oath lists.  Pre-board, you have Cunning Wish for Echoing Truth as your means of removing Platinum Angel, and Intuition/AK + Brainstorm as your draw engine.  Thus, making this play will require you to obtain access to at least 5 mana, or 7 if you want to play your answer with castable counter backup.  Slaver has access to 4 more mana sources than you, and its draw engine is stronger overall.  Given these facts, it seems reasonable to me that your deck will be less likely to be able to find, cast, and force through its one answer to Platinum Angel than Slaver will be to draw into more counters or an additional threat.

Post-board, the situation changes.  I'm not exactly sure what your sideboarding plan vs. Slaver would entail, but looking at your sideboard, I'm going to assume it would include bringing in the 2 Cranial Extractions, and also boarding out the Cunning Wish for the Echoing Truth and Coffin Purge, since being able to access those answers directly is more efficient than having to Wish for, and then cast them.  For its part, Slaver is probably boarding out at least Fact or Fiction and Pentavus against you for REB, although I would also take out a Darksteel Citadel and add a Tormod's Crypt.  The key plays remain largely the same under these circumstances.  The game between Oath and Slaver will still remain largely decided by what happens in the first 2-3 turns.  Oath will force down an Akroma, and Slaver will try to answer with a Platinum Angel.  Oath will again need to expend more of its resources early game getting down Oath of Druids and Forbidden Orchard, making it harder for Oath to race Slaver to its answer to Platinum Angel before Slaver manages to seal the game.  

The points of difference between now and pre-board aren't all that significant, I'm afraid.  You have Coffin Purge to block Welding, but against Oath I Tinker out Platinum Angel 90% of the time.  Since your means of removing Angel send it to Slaver's hand and not its graveyard, being able to stop welding seems largely irrelevant.  Granted, your bounce will be easier to cast and protect, since you need only 2 mana and not 5, but it still seems like Slaver's superior draw engine will allow it to produce a secondary threat quicker than you'll be able to find your Echoing Truth.  

The only remaining factor is Cranial Extraction, which is a 4 mana black sorcery.  Being this slow and clunky, it doesn't look like it will be much of a factor.  It will be difficult for you to play Extraction, AND knock the slaver player to 0 with an Oath + Orchard, before they can get Angel out.  More realistically, you'll only be able to do one or the other.  Assuming you get out your Oath engine, Slaver's better capacity to draw cards seems like it will enable them to find a threat before you can force through a 4-mana sorcery from an initial position of card disadvantage after you expend resources to force down Oath + Orchard.  Alternatively, if you opt instead to go with Extraction first, you're likewise in for an uphill battle.  My biggest problem with Deep Analysis in Slaver is similar to the problem I have with Extraction in Oath.  4cc sorceries are HUGE drain targets, and if drain hits, chances are very good that the entire game will irreversibly fall apart for you on the Slaver players' next turn.  Therefore, you'll need the following things in order to pull off Extraction as your primary game plan against Slaver:  

1.  1 of the 11 black sources in your deck, and 3 of the additional 21 sources.
2.  Some means of protecting Extraction from Mana Drain, which will involve either a pitch-counter or 2 additional mana and a castable counterspell.
3.  Cranial Extraction itself, as a 2-of in your 60-card deck, which precludes getting it via Intiution, one of your main avenues of getting additional cards.  

It appears as though this will likewise require a considerable amount of resources on your part.  Even if you are successful, Slaver will have lost only one aspect of its multifaceted game plan (1 Platinum Angel, 2 Mindslavers, or 4 Welders), and will again be in a position where it will probably have more cards available than you, since it has not yet acted and you have expended resources to get Extraction through.  In this scenario, Slaver could conceivably just exploit its position ahead on cards to stop Oath from resolving, or alternatively could force in a threat of its own and take the game away from you.

This post has turned out to be far longer than I originally intended.  Let me add, compendiously, that Oath seems to have had its day and now that Platinum Angel is known to be extremely difficult for it to win through, Oath is past its prime in terms of performance.  If you're looking to beat Slaver, find another deck.

[IShHmokeDaNKs]

First come, first serve.

Ultima:

once Gothslaver hits a certain mana standpoint

This is what I am attempting to prevent by running Crucible of Worlds in the sideboard. It is rather slow, but it can get very effective. The problem is, this Crucible can't stop Drain, moxen or Islands (most of the time).

The oath player can't play his aks because Slaver will draw off them and just win from sheer hand size. Oath doesn't have any other draw besides aks mostly while Slaver has TFK and DA to play out.

This is all going to change very soon. I am trying to mix this up, check out the deck list at towards the bottom of the post. Explanations will proceed after.

I'll answer the bulk of your questions in my most recent build.

Demonic Attorney:

Your assertion that Platinum Angel is not the central determining factor in the Oath vs. Slaver matchup is demonstrably false.

This couldn't be any more a ridiculous statement. Platinum Angel is not (anymore) the main problem I face. Please wait, and read the rest of the post. My new build changes the creature base, which makes it immune to Platinum Angel.

And yes, a Slaver player at 0 has effectively had their maindeck counterspell reserve cut in half since they can no longer pay the 1 life to pitch-cast Force of Will.

Yes they can, if they are countering the Control Magic then it hasn't resolved, and they still have the Platinum. This would put the player at -1 life. I have just started to take my DCI lvl 1 judge training, and fully understand state-based effects.

Thirst for Knowledge and Brainstorm (plus occasionally finding Library of Alexandria) allow Slaver to build up their hand more quickly than Oath

This, if we are talking about normal Control Slaver, is false. Are we all forgetting that oath runs 14 counters? I don't play aggressive into Slaver, I lay back and play Intuition and Counterspells.

Now, this is the real business. I have recently tweaked Oath's kill mechanism to make Platinum Angel irrelevant:

0ath2K5:
4x Oath of Druids
4x Mana Leak
4x Brainstorm
4x Mana Drain
4x Force of Will
4x Accumulated Knowledge
3x Intuition
3x Thirst for Knowledge
2x Auriok Salvagers
2x Seal of Cleansing
1x Yawgmoth's Will
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Pyrite Spellbomb
1x Aether Spellbomb

4x Forbidden Orchard
4x Polluted Delta
3x Underground Sea
2x Tundra
1x Island
1x Tropical Island
5x Moxen
1x Sol Ring
1x Lions-Eye Diamond
1x Black Lotus

Sideboard:
4x Duress
3x Cabal Therapy**
3x Ground Seal
2x Pernicious Deed
2x Seal of Cleansing
1x Pristine Angel

I switched the kill to Auriok Salvagers, which don't lose to Platinum. However, they do lose to Trinisphere. So I decided to put some Seal of Cleansing in the maindeck. I am using Duress and Therapy in the board, Therapy is good in AK mirrors and against opposing Oath. I really want to fit Duress in the main, but I'm struggling to find slots. The same goes for balance, Fact or Fiction, Swords to Plowshares, and Deep Analysis. I'm tight on space.

Pernicious Deed is mainly in the board for 5/3, but is usefull against random aggro varients.

I am really liking the new draw, three Thirst for Knowledge. I have more draw and counters than goth slaver. However, it can abuse mana sources much better than Oath can, so I still have to bank on playing an Oath or rely on winning an AK battle.

Please comment on the build, flaws, changes, whatever.

I do apoligize for sounding abrasive, it was absolutely uncalled for. This Oath build sufficiently has no problem with Platinum Angel, and if, or so you say is the reason Oath loses, then maybe I won't have such a hard time winning now.

Damping Matrix does nothing, it gets welded out, countered, Duressed, or they just play Will and win anyways. Null Rod is more interesting.

Trust me, oath problem isn't that it can't win the mid-game, its that there is a mid-game

This really exercised my thinking process. Crucible and Extraction are way too slow, so the deck needs to either play an Oath early, or get in for the long haul.
-Thanks, ISD