[Deck Discussion]R/G Tempo, revisited

[xrobx]

Really?  You actually tested it and drew a tropical most of the time??  I've not drawn one to date in my opening hands, but I only play 1.  I've drawn volcanic and its amazing opening hand.  I don't see how tropical would be much worse, as the whole idea of this deck is turn 1 rootmaze...??

For the record, we know that maze is a dead card late game.  Bounty of the hunt is the only suggestion I have at this time, or stormbind.  I feel stormbind is brutal, as it's too mana intensive.  Bounty I haven't tested yet, but could be decent.  It gets around old man of the sea, misd, direct damage to your creatures (try using this RG against almost any aggro and you'll get owned), etc.

I want this deck to be a prodigy hate deck, but it has extremely hard times dealing with 4c and aggro.

I didn't run fire/ice yet, as I thought bolt was strictly a better removal card than fire, and most of the time you don't want blue in your hand (I only run 2 blue cards; AR and TW).  I can see how ice is nice against oath, as it taps their stupid flying idiots.  It is nice against other aggro, which is this decks weakest matchup.  However, this would require altering the manabase moreso and removing a few cards.  I'm willing to try it out replacing bolt with f/i, but that makes some things that much harder to do.  You need more mana for removal, your grim isn't as strong as he can no longer take down 4/5 fliers, you can't take down juggernaut as easily, and it's simply a worse mana to  damage ratio.  However, the plus side is versatility and the ability to eat oath easier.  4 fire/ice, 4 naturalize, and boas should put the ankh player on his feet.  

I'm not giving up on REB just yet; so for the moment, what are peoples thoughts on REB vs Null Rod sb??

Null rod is their for slaver, and combo, and somewhat mana denial through artifact based mana decks.  REB is their for the same reasons, except the last (mana denial).  It can stop combo cold, stop oath by forcing through a naturalize, hurts 4c matchups (in your favor), and helps against slaver somewhat.

Thoughts on the REBvsROD and fire/ice I think are extremely necessary.  Test away.

[d4ddy]

one thing to add... 3 REB's maindeck, if you look at the statistics, almost every deck runs crucial blue spells, with these and Hearth Kami maindeck, along with burn and mancers, not only does slaver not have a chance, but TPS, Meandeck, Oath... all of which (besides slaver) are you feared matchups. REB maindeck was the best change yet in my friend and I's R/G deck, when tested against slaver it went undefeated.

[[supa_t(im)]]

How exactly is this deck bad against other aggro.  In my usual build I run 8 burn spells (4 bolt, 4 magma jet), 4 grim lavamancer, and 4 naturalize.  Against Madness (zaarless) lavamancer and 8 burn spells really help against their early discard outlets.  Against Zaar Madness, rootmaze and wastelands help, as does the plethora of burn (although they are much faster so its still a tough matchup).  Against workshop aggro this deck has tons of solutions.  Bolts kill juggs, every burn kills welders, naturalize kills juggs, and rancor makes every critter trage with juggs.  Combine that with root maze and the matchup is generally in your favor.

What other aggro is there to worry about.  WW?  Burn, lavamancer, and superior critters.  Stompy?  Burn, lavamancer.  Sui Black?  Burn, lavamancer, superior critters.  Fish?  Burn, lavamancer, islandwalk.  Sligh, burn, lavamancer, regenerate, superior critters (naturalize sometimes).  What else is there?

As for null rod vs REB, I run both in my SB.  REB really helps against the control matchups to force through key spells, like say naturalize against Oath or Slaver, bolt against 4cC, Root Maze against any of them.  Also to force through anti combo cards against TPS (our worst matchup).

Rod really helps against the combo matchup which will always be our worst matchup.  I think with 11 (4 Maze, 4 Pillar, 3 Rod) hate cards after SB we should have at least a winnable matchup against combo.  Also, if Slaver stays as the sheep deck, rod helps to keep them from winning.

After testing with the power a bit, I don't really see it helping the deck.  It usually acts as a win more thing, but this is not conclusive.  Any other observations on adding two big blue?

[never]

I took my version of R/G to the YMG tournament. I went 3-2. 1-1 versus slaver. I lost to ELD, he pretty much just beat my ass the first game when I mulled to 5. And then second game he brought in FTK and it was all over.

My other loss was to food chain goblins. We played out three games just for fun. I lost all 3. It was never even close. That match up is just an autoloss. I could clear his board of creatures, but if a ringleader resolved afterwards, it was just all over.

My build was a bit different than some I've seen here. I added Kaverk's Torch, Hearth Kami, and Channel. I channel torched two different people at the tournament, it was great. Torch is also a great, practically non-counterable way to get rid of other creatures.

I also maindecked red blasts, and they saved me in so many games. A few different games against an opponent who went "island go". I went "mountain go". Only to blast their end of turn ancestral.

[[supa_t(im)]]

@never
I don't know how FCG is an autoloss.  Maybe its because you play channel + torch and MD REBs.  If you play 8 burn and 4 lavamancer, there is hardly a way for them to kill you.  Remove their piledrivers, or their warchiefs, or their sharpshooters, or all of them, and they have a really rough time killing you.  If you MD naturalize, they say good bye to food chain.  This matchup is really not that hard.

Against FTK, yes, it blows the hell out of your creatures.  But it only has a 2 toughness.  Lavamancer can rif you of this pest, along with the plethora of other burn you should be running.

REB is a bad choice to MD.  Its way too narrow.  Channel + Torch is also way to risky.  If you fail to pull it off you are at a very low life and possibly a well placed lava dart will kill you.  I also almost got beat up for using that combo.

On the topic of adding power, I have found that its really superfluous.  Walk does say "I win" but its usually countered.  Ancestral is always good, but who lets a ancestral go through?  Maybe I was extremely unlucky and drew them at bad times, but I haven't really seen them help the deck.  Also, the addition of volcanic and tropical have opened up the manabase for more nonbasic hate.  Anyone have luck with these guys?

[xrobx]

Hmm, so far in my build I don't have enough testing to say all of this fairly, BUT:

I run 4 nonbasics, 2 taigas, 1 trop, 1 volcanic.  Get the blue when you need it, cast the spell.  If the spell resolves, you should be able to win now  If they are countering it, that is GOOD.  You don't care if they counter these, as they can easily counter any of your other spells.  Saying a card shouldn't be run for fear of it being counter is silly.

Sligh, burn, lavamancer, regenerate, superior critters (naturalize sometimes).

Sligh eats this deck alive, unfortunatly.

Again, my manabase is opened up to 4 nonbasics for hate, but again it doesn't really affect me too much yet.  Root maze changes the whole game with waste/strip effects

[never]

@never
I don't know how FCG is an autoloss.  Maybe its because you play channel + torch and MD REBs.  If you play 8 burn and 4 lavamancer, there is hardly a way for them to kill you.  Remove their piledrivers, or their warchiefs, or their sharpshooters, or all of them, and they have a really rough time killing you.  If you MD naturalize, they say good bye to food chain.  This matchup is really not that hard.

My slot for REB is what other people had been using for null rod/ankh. Neither would do anything more against FCG. And Torch is burn. I run 4 bolt. 3 torch. 4 grim.

I do maindeck naturalize, but none of the three games did he even bother to combo kill. And like I said, despite using burn and grim to wipe his board multiple times, a resolved ring leader gives him card advantage that I cannot compete with. Same with Recruiter. You do not have enough burn to deal with a stack of 10 goblins that will be coming at you turn after turn after turn.

And I even sideboarded pyrokinesis against him. Helped to wipe his board, but killing a few creatures doesn't stop a stack of goblins from coming after you again the following turn.

Against FTK, yes, it blows the hell out of your creatures.  But it only has a 2 toughness.  Lavamancer can rif you of this pest, along with the plethora of other burn you should be running.

The slaver match-up is in your favor, but that is because they don't play creatures except for welder, and you have river boa for island walk. You're trying to disrupt their game plan enough, so that your creatures hit them for 20.

When they bring in heavy hitters that you cannot artifact mutation, this becomes more difficult for you, because not only are you trying to burn out their welders, eat up their moxes, and get a root maze in play, but now you're trying to dodge and burn out a 4/2 creature that just killed your active lavamancer. It distracts you from your purpose of keeping a welder out of play. They already have maindeck trike, pentavus, lava dart, and echoing truth, that make your game difficult, I felt like the inclusion of FTK was just one too many threats for me to have to deal with.

I'm sure it could have been played around, but I didn't have a chance. I lost game one when I mulled to 5 and he basically picked up his god draw.

I think the Slaver match up is solid, but FTK, definitely transforms the match in his favor. That and ELD is just a better player than I am.

REB is a bad choice to MD.  Its way too narrow.  Channel + Torch is also way to risky.  If you fail to pull it off you are at a very low life and possibly a well placed lava dart will kill you.  I also almost got beat up for using that combo.

I 100% disagree with you. Maindeck blasts won me games. I only faced one deck where they didn't come in handy, and that was FCG, which is already an autoloss, so it wasn't a big deal.

They are far more disruptive than null rod or ankh, and have a much greater surprise factor in game one.

As far as channel. Channel is almost never a dead card. As I said, I run Kami and Mox Monkey. Even if I don't have torch, channel can help get rid of bigger artifacts if I haven't drawn another answer.

And you should never channel for anything unless you think it it's going to work. If you're channeling against someone who has a red open and you go down to one, that's just a bad play. Playing tournament magic isn't like goldfishing, you need to take into account that your opponent is probably a good player and if his deck is any good, he does has some sort of answer to almost everything you do. It's just a matter of whether or not he will find that answer in time.

You're free to keep your build how you like, but I feel those changes I made, only served to make the deck more of a threat. Don't forget, Torch still means an almost uncounterable way to kill welder or to just end a game that's been lingering.

You definitely brought up some good concerns though. Cheers to you.

[[supa_t(im)]]

hmm, I think I need to go into things in a little more detail.

Re: power in R/G.  I'm not saying that one shouldn't play it because it might get countered, that would be like saying you shouldn't play magic because things get countered.  I'm saying that I'd rather be playing other things at the time than playing the big blue.  They aren't bad to play with by any means, and I'm not saying anything as conclusive at this point.  I'm just saying that so far that I haven't been doing anything spectacular with it.  Not done testing.  BTW, I run the same duals as you, xrobx.

Re: sligh.  I don't think its an autoloss.  At least I haven't had a horrible problem with sligh using my build.  Its true you can't match them burn for burn, but you have better creatures, and still enough burn to take their critters out.  Its not necessarily in your favor since they can definitely rattle off more burn than you, and your hate may not effect them much, but its not as bad a match as TPS.

Re: FCG.  They don't always get 4 goblins when they resolve a recruiter.  Also, why try to clear their entire board every time they get a goblin out.  Get rid of their key goblins:  piledriver, warchief, sharpshooter, seige gang commander, prospector, lackey.  Also, with rancor all of your guys can trade with a piledriver, which is their biggest threat.  Once again, its not an autowin, but its not an autoloss either.  The deck has the tools to deal with the goblins.

Re: REB.  Well, I suppose REB MD could be considered a metagame decision.  If you see a lot of control and TPS this would be a good MD solution.  However, I think if it results in you losing to random aggro, its better to leave it as extra burn.  Especially since it does nothing to get rid of welder, or artifacts.

Re: FTK.  Null rod should be played in the SB for Slaver.  This shuts off not only slaver but pentavus and trike.  Then they can be easily artifact mutationed.  This means that you only have to worry about ftk ruining your day.  With at least 4 MD burn and 4 lavamancers ftk should be THAT much of a problem.

Maybe I'm thinking way to theoretically here, and when it comes down to it, the deck really just doesn't function the way it should.  I guess that I'll take your guy's words for it and figure that this deck gets pretty much pounded by decks that it should beat.  Its that inherent flaw of hate decks I suppose.

[[FtN|FH] Negator]

Here some Feedbackinformations from a turnament (yesterday) for some more discussions.
Please excuse my not perfect english
The Turnament was in "Dülmen" (Germany) 47 people played. About 40% of them have been powered or semipowered.

My Decklist:

4x Wooded Foothills
4x Taiga
3x Mountain
2x Forest
2x Treetop Villgae
4x Wasteland
1x Strip Mine
1x Mox Emerald

4x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x River Boa
4x Kird
3x Grim Lavamancer
3x Gorilla Shamane
2x Skyshroud Elite

4x Root Maze
4x Rancor
4x Naturalize
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Incinerate

SB:
4x Arifact Mutation
4x Pyrostatic Pillar
4x Emerald Charm (vs Oath)
3x Red Elemental Blast


How i played:
1st Round
2:0 vs a bad Whithe Weenie. (no power i guess)
His deckbuild was realy bad :/. But stupid Silverknight with Crusade and glorious anthem + Story Cicle vs Red was a serious problem for me in game two...


2nd Round
2:0 vs a momo green hate deck. (unpowered i guess)
Hidden Gibbons, Hidden Gorillas, Skyshroud Elite, Wild Mongrel etc.
Because of my very limited non basic lands and nearly no artifacts i played it was no big problem to win with grim/burn for his creatures and my kirdsbeating him.


3rd Round
0:2 vs Worldgorger (full powered)
I started whith 1st turn Root Maze and thought this whould be it...but i failed. With Manacrypt, Lotus and 1 Land he hardcastet the dragon and i was not able to handle it or beat him down fast. I died with him having something about 5 life. One turn to slow
Second Game i layed two Rootmaze again and started beatdown. He bounced both with a Echoing truth and killed me. I had no Naturalize at all.
I don't think i could have done anything else here...i layed Root Maze both games and he was able to play arround and i had no naturalizes.


4th Round
0:2 vs Mask (didn't see any power)
First game i naturalized his Survival of the fittest (he had no mana to use it). The turn after this he played a mask and a morphed dreadnought. It killed me.
Second game i started beatdown but i had no Naturalize and no Mutation (i boarded 4 in) on my hand. Only a REB i boarded too. He played no single blue card the hole hame and simply rolled over me with three survivaled dreadnoughts.
Now i know that is was wrong to board the REB's and i should have mulliganed until i had atleast one Naturalize or Mutation on my opening hand.

5th Round
2:1 vs Some kind of Landstill (unpowered)
He played pernicius deeds in maindeck. The loss was a result of two of them and me not able to kill him with 2 lifes left (countered my damage spells) and killing me with his Manlands
Game two and three he had only one deed per game and i killed him very fast.


6. Round
0:2 vs Trinistaxx
Game one he layed a first turn Metalworker with Workshop. I burned it with incinerate but no other burn spell in my hand anymore. His follwing Welder + Trisk won the game because i draw no burn spell anymore the hole game to take out the welder.
Game two i had to mulligan down to 6 because my first hand with Mutation, Naturalize and Gorilla but no mana. So i started with a 6 card hand with rootmaze but without Mutaton or naturalize. i started beatdown but lost to Tangle wire, Smokestack etc.
I must say without a Mutation on the opening hand i don't realy see the right way to win this. If you get the mutation everything is just fine but without its very hard.

[never]

The deck has the tools to deal with the goblins.

R/G has nothing to deal with a resolved recruiter. Which is basically game over, because you will never be able to recover from the amount of card advantage they are going to gain over the next few turns.

You cannot compete with an aggro deck that consistently has a clock 2 turns faster than your aggro god draw.

By turn 3, you're at most going to have 4 guys in play. They could have 8 without even drawing foodchain and then they could stack 10 more on top of their deck. Nothing in your deck comes close to being able to handle that.

If you know of something I'm missing let me know, but there is nothing in any of the builds I've seen on here, that can handle Food Chains third and fourth turn.

[Freelancer]

FCG is indeed not a autoloss but it is not nearly as easy as supa makes it look...If they go broke with food chain there is nothing you can do pre-boarding but if they go the aggro route you stand a decent chance game 1...
If you trie to out-aggro FCG than you will indeed have a autoloss every single time you play against it....Your role in this matchup is control, trie to take down there big creatures (supa named them) establish 1 or 2 grim lavamancers trade your creatures with there important ones (through for instance rancor) and you should be fine in the long run...Also a ringleader is NOT gg, if they go for a stack with recruiter trie to keep your wastelands back and waste there coloured mana sources AFTER they drop a recruiter that should be game since they won't draw another R source for the next x turns...A ringleader doesn't always get 3/4 goblins more often than not (without a recruiter) it gets 1/2 gobbo's...In my testing this matchup is about 30-60 preboard and 50-50 after boarding in 3/4 naturalizes (if you suspect your opponent to sideboard food chains out bring in 3 to be sure if you think they are going combo route side in 4)...

[[supa_t(im)]]

FCG is indeed not a autoloss but it is not nearly as easy as supa makes it look...If they go broke with food chain there is nothing you can do pre-boarding but if they go the aggro route you stand a decent chance game 1...

I never said it would be a cake walk.  Its just not an autoloss.  (I guess my first few posts about R/G against aggro make it seem as though this match is totally yours, but I was just trying to bring up that if you know their deck, and you play it smart, R/G has the tools)

Besides, if its an autoloss, why are we even bothering to discuss R/G?  Seems FCG is the superior R/G deck.

[Freelancer]

I just got the feeling while reading your posts that you thought that FCG is a resonble to good matchup...I might hhave been mistaking though...

Maybe FCG is indeed the better matchup, it has a better matchup against aggro, workshop is even better, combo is probably a bit worse (no rootmaze) and control slaver is favorable for both...Although RG beatz has a maindeck/sideboard that has more free spaces in it...(FCG has about 3/4 places maindeck for sideboard options and no maindeck space for non-gobbo's/land) This also makes RG harder to build correctly though wich may or may not be bad...

[never]

Besides, if its an autoloss, why are we even bothering to discuss R/G?  Seems FCG is the superior R/G deck.

FCG is the superior aggro deck.

R/G is meant to beat up on control decks, not aggro decks.


@Freelancer: What are you siding in on game 2 that gives you 50-50 chance to win?

A ringleader should, on average, net something like 2 and 1/2 goblins, if they are running the optimal build.

And how are you supposed to wasteland mountains? FCG only needs green on the turn it casts foodchain. On any other turn they should be playing mountains. Not to mention, if you just happen to draw strip and strip their only mountain, they still have skirk prospectors(some have elvish spirit guide) to generate mana.

[[supa_t(im)]]

just got the feeling while reading your posts that you thought that FCG is a resonble to good matchup...I might hhave been mistaking though...

Well, I do think its reasonable, if by reasonable, not unwinable.  I did say at one point that its not that hard, so maybe thats why everyone thinks I'm like "OMFG!!FCG SUCKS!!!!111!!one!!R/G PWNS J00!!!111!!shift!!!one!!"  My words seem to convey a bit less worry than my actual feelings.

You know what I've found helpful against FCG, pyrostatic pillar.  It basically says "you may be the superior aggro deck, but now you either play at my level, or you kill yourself."  If I can get a boa on the table (which, if you've played the deck, happens quite often) it really improves things.  Pillar is conditional though, if you play it too late, you will often kill yourself.  If played very early, say turn 1, its brutal for them.  Just like any combo deck, however, they can play around it, but it still makes them sweat.

I guess a good thing about R/G is that its more resilient to Slaver.  If they don't have the lock yet and they slave a R/G player, there isn't too much they can do to hurt you.  If they slave a FCG player, they can effectively win the game.  So I guess R/G might have the upper hand on slaver compared to FCG.

[Freelancer]

Okay...I'm a moron...I'll admit it...

I thought for 2 seconds there that I had anything usefull to say about a matchup I played 1/2 games with, sorry about that...

RG is probably better preboarding against slaver but after boarding a smart FCG player will sideboard out all off the 'I killed my self stuff' like food chain/prospector and sideboard in stuff like null rod/REB...(k, don't take this as a absolute truth since I'm a terrible FCG player:P)

Supa, sorry about me thinking you thought FCG was a easy matchup...I misunderstood what you meant...than again I'm from Holland so my english kinda sucks from time to time...

[xrobx]

This deck never ceases to amaze me day by day, as there are so many routes you can take with it and each has different and amazing qualities.

For the record, I've currently dropped the blue power as I do favour the consistancy of the brokeness.  This seems weird to hear me saying, but often times you do want fireblast over ancestral/walk, and often times I find the solid manabase of the RG (no blue) version is very solid, tropical and volcanic DO seem to complicate things  

For the record, your most feared card against this deck is misdirection.  This card is beginning to see play again, and rightfully so.  For control decks that are susceptable to aggro, a well placed mis-d wins games.  You also hate old man of the sea, but that's a given.  When the opponent combines the two you are definatly on your toes.  Watch out for this guys...again, something that makes me tend to lean towards REB over null rod.

3rd Round
0:2 vs Worldgorger (full powered)
I started whith 1st turn Root Maze and thought this whould be it...but i failed. With Manacrypt, Lotus and 1 Land he hardcastet the dragon and i was not able to handle it or beat him down fast. I died with him having something about 5 life. One turn to slow  
Second Game i layed two Rootmaze again and started beatdown. He bounced both with a Echoing truth and killed me. I had no Naturalize at all.
I don't think i could have done anything else here...i layed Root Maze both games and he was able to play arround and i had no naturalizes.

Dude, I'm glad you took this out to a decent sized tournament  Congrats for that.  The biggest play error IMHO is the absence of ankh of mishra in your decklist.  This card is ownage.  Instead, you played 2 treetops and 2 elites.  Your choice, your meta.  From my experience, I've never found a simply 1/1 (that 'can' be a 2/3), or a land that can swing to be better than a solid ankh.  Ankh runs havoc against so many decks; notice you went 0-2 against dragon; yes ANKH DOES HURT DRAGON.  They are supposed to be able to go off on their turn somehow (to which I'm still uninformed how they do so), but ankh is definatly a solid card against dragon; if I'm correct on how this works.

I'm kind of at a lack of knowledge here, as the dragon player animates their dragon, and when he comes in, lands go out.  No problem here - but, when animate dead is removed, the dragon triggers to go the grave, which triggers the permanents to come back in.  Here is where things are tricky.  To my knowledge, I'd feel that the lands come back in, triggering the ankh damage, and the animate comes back in, triggering the dragon recursion.  I believe that it has something to do with the priority/active player here, as if the lands came in first, ankh damage on stack, animate targets dragon, animate on stack, animate resolves first, placing the land damage lower on the stack, which will not be resolved until the player chooses it to be so.  That is, if the player goes for a loop, does he win the game without the damage being processed?  We need a clear ruling on this to decide whether ankh is useful whatsoever against ankh.  Someone who knows for sure, please address this.

[Fall-Titan]

Sorry im not replying to the rules question but in regards to ankh has anyone thought about using Zo-Zu the punisher. I know he costs one more and i know he is a 2/2 that is a fire/ice target but if the object of the deck is a balance between beats and hate he seems like a decent card. I would not replace ankh with him but maybe a 2 of or 1 of to go along side the ankh of mishra? Just a thought. If anyone has tested this out or is planning on it let me know how he worked.

[JamesPr]

Fall-Titan - There is a big difference between two colorless and two red and a colorless mana.  That right there make's Zo-Zu unplayable.  Ankh is already on the borderline of being unplayable itself.  

Most decks take the two four damage and proceed to do something broken and kill you.

[nataz]

I believe that it has something to do with the priority/active player here, as if the lands came in first, ankh damage on stack, animate targets dragon, animate on stack, animate resolves first, placing the land damage lower on the stack, which will not be resolved until the player chooses it to be so.  That is, if the player goes for a loop, does he win the game without the damage being processed?

you gots it, except you forgot to add that it takes an instant to make it all work. Therefore necromancy is key to go off under ank. As long as they do it on their turn, as an instant, you will die before the ank damg ever resolves.

[xrobx]

I checked it out, here's how it works (dragon ruling):

My turn, he can win with the instant (necromancy?).

His turn, he cannot win under ankh unless it is removed.

Plain and simple.  Thus, ankh is very good against dragon nonetheless.

This isn't an ankh discussion, but it was good to address that point as it proves to be an important factor when piloting this deck.

On that note, against dragon you have a favorable matchup.  Game 2, you sideboard in 4 naturalizes (if you don't have them maindecked already), and possibly crypts/ground seals if you feel the need for them.

Dragon should be one of your easier combo matchups.  Watch out for TPS

[MCS]

By my opinion, loosing to dragon is a very rare thing. Naturalize + rot maze are very good against dragon, it was just bad luck.

Personaly, I think that the version posted was good but just not good enough. I've eliminated incinerates out from the deck since they are just not good enough to make the cut. I found that playing naturalizes maindeck is a better option than to play ankh (altought ankh wins you some matches).

Against any kind of workshop decks, burn and wastelands are your best friend, and artifact mutation = game over. If you have an entire set of root mazes, naturalizes, gorila shamans and artifact mutations, especialy if you play null rod in your sb (btw, I found yesterday that null rod is great against kobolds if you ever find yourself playing against them), then playing against artifact based decks is usualy in your favor. Mulliganing to one in your oppening hand is a good choice in that matchup.

[DJ_DDP]

Why are there no ones that uses chain lightning?

I think i is a good card and it deals 3 dmg for 1 mana, that is good


DJ_DDP
Martin

[MCS]

Why are there no ones that uses chain lightning?

I think i is a good card and it deals 3 dmg for 1 mana, that is good


DJ_DDP
Martin

Chain is OK, but having a burn with instant speed helps you out from some situation (for ex. tangle wire).

[[supa_t(im)]]

Supa, sorry about me thinking you thought FCG was a easy matchup...I misunderstood what you meant...than again I'm from Holland so my english kinda sucks from time to time...

Don't worry, I often have a hard time conveying what I really mean on message boards.  Go back and read some of my other stuff and you'll get really confused   .

I know a few people really like Ankh, but my problem is that it doesn't help against decks that we really need help against.  TPS?  Oath?  I don't see it doing much against those decks.

As for the SB issue, I would run both REB and Null Rod.  My SB runs pillar, mutation, reb, and rod.  I MD naturalize, which may be the reason I can run both in the SB.

[Freelancer]

Supa trie reading my long posts, I'm sure you will notice that I tend to say the same things two or even three times in a different context...o_0

Yeah ank is mostly good against slower decks (control mainly) wich this deck already has a decent matchup against...(ie. it's not as horrifying like the TPS matchup/oath)

Yeah I also maindeck naturalize for it's versatility, and sideboard both REB and pillar as 4-off in the sideboard...I also run 4x mutation and 3x null rod wich is exactly your sideboard...bleh...

[xrobx]

I'm back from the SCG syracuse tourny with results, comments, and everything you will want to know about this deck and it's viability in the current metagame

Okay, my list going into the tournament will first be posted below.

RGZoo, I hate you!
Rob Hackney
February 26th/2005

Mana Sources (27 including strip effects and creature mana):

    1  Black Lotus
    1  Mana Crypt
    1  Mox Emerald
    1  Mox Ruby
    2  Taiga
    4  Wasteland
    1  Strip Mine
    4  Forest
    4  Wooded Foothills
    4  Mountain
    4  Elvish Spirit Guide

The facesmashers (15):

    3  Gorilla Shaman (2)
    4  River Boa
    4  Grim Lavamancer
    4  Kird Ape

Accelerated Death (10):
 
    3  Rancor
    4  Lightning Bolt
    2  Fireblast
    1  Shrapnel Blast

Lockdown (8):

   4  Root Maze
   4  Ankh of Mishra

Sideboard (15):

SB: 4  Naturalize
SB: 4  Artifact Mutation
SB: 4  Pyrostatic Pillar
SB: 3  Red Elemental Blast


First and foremost, I know this deck has been discussed for awhile and I intend to explain everything that needs to be said about it, be it the viability, choices, feared cards, etc...but where to start...

History:

Zoo has always been one of my favorite decks of choice for aggro, because it ran funny little critters that could inflict damage ever so quickly, and it could function on such a low manabase, it was unreal.  For 1 or 2 mana, you could have a creature dealing 2-4 trample damage second turn!  Not only that, but you could laugh as your opponent lost to your stupid monkey, snake, or maybe another kind of stupid animal, that clearly shouldn't be kicking your face in on turn 2.  From this, I worked on RGzoo for the past 3-4 months, while watching the evolving metagame as it tended more and more towards goblin welder based decks, like stax and control slaver.  These decks were the rant and rave of everyone both online and offline.

Why zoo?:

Well, as I just said, the popularity of artifact based decks running that pesky welding machine for 1 mana jumped through the roof.  Everyone started to discuss how to beat these machines, as they're results showed many T8s with an average of 4.5 welder based decks per top 8.  This is ridiculous.  Not only that, but it deserved a swift kick in the nuts by a monkey carrying a rancor on its back.  Enough said.

Play results:

This is where shit gets messy.  Okay, first of all and most important, this deck is a deck that requires you to keep the pressure on the opponent.  I'll say that again, this deck requires that you smash face as aggresively as possbly.  This is the flaw that I was sidetracked from when playing in the SCG tourny against the player who ended up winning (Kevin Cron).  He played stax, and as I mentioned, I designed this deck to mop the floor with stax and CS, and anything that rhymed with, or read, "Goblin" or "Welder".  Alas, my match with Kevin began.  Game one was fairly one sided, as I began to swing hard with little critters and very quick and efficient tempo.  It ended in my favor, with a likely suprised godfather of stax left uneasy...

The big mistake:

This is very super extremely important, as I blindly ran right into.  This deck is BEATS, as in, you need to beat the shit out of your opponent as fast and quickly as possibly.  After sideboarding in 4 artifact mutations, 4 naturalizes, and taking out 4 lavamancers, 4 kird apes, my hate was strong.  Too strong in fact, that it diluted my threatbase far too much.  Games 2 and 3 against Kevin were both lost, 1 a very close matchup, the other complete dominance by Kevin.  The problem I faced, but unfortunately didn't realize until it was too late (not after this game, but AFTER a loss by another Team Meandecker playing slaver), was that I had annihilated the chances of winning.  As in, the threat base was strictly too low to insure a feasible chance of succeeding.  This was a mistake made due to the lack of playtesting with good stax/CS players, and was entirely my fault.  I frown on this now, but considering the great time I had at the tournament, I simply shrugged it off.  After realizing that I could not top 8 in this tourny with 6-2-0, I let myself go, and fooled around with fun ideas when sideboarding in against different opponents.  The point of this section: do not dilute the threatbase of this deck too much!  A better sideboard for me against kevin would've simply been 4x AM in, and 4x Lavamancers out.  I didn't see a goblin welder hit play on his side, so I did not need the mancers, as they were too slow a beatstick anyhow.  By diluting, it changes the focus of the deck from an aggressive beatstick with hosers into a control RG deck with hosers; the first is very efficient and viable, the second, quite inefficient and not viable in a 130+ person SCG tourny.  Why?  Simple, RG zoo has no control elements to it, it cannot draw effectively, and has useless cards late game (multiple root mazes, ankhs, etc.)

What is learned from this experience?:

Sooooo much.  It's hard to even describe how to play this deck to its full potential, as I made a crucial mistake early on which prevented my entry to the top 8.  First and foremost, type one is a very prominant metagame, with tons of different possibilities for decks.  You never know what you'll be up against.  This is demonstrated from the most recent SCG tourny, and you'd see that if you looked at the t8 decklists.  A good friend, Lam Phan, pilotted his BirdSh*t deck to place 3rd overall, with a very close finish (to placing 1st/2nd).  Yes, he ran a very different deck, but he is also an extremely good player, who knew his deck very well.  Similar to this deck, it was able to cope with what was expected in the metagame, and does pack answers to many threats.  I'm not trying to compare decklists here, just the concept that new and evolving decks can show competitive play and results.

The most important thing to note about this deck is that it can compete with other tier 1 decks, and it is a budget deck.  That said, you can make this deck (minus the power) for about 100$ or so, and pilot it to success in T1 power 9 events, such as SCG tournies.

Card choices:

This has been discussed for the past few months on TMD, and I do believe much of this can be solidifed.

Manabase:

The 27 structured manabase I found to work quite well.  There were very few times when I drew land that was not useful/needed, and the advantage of using tapped mountains as fuel for fireblast is quite unreal.  The wastelands and strips are completely necessary, and the basic lands are a must.  The importance of playing around other players strip effects is crucial, as it changes the whole role they will play as the opponent.  Sometimes you bait out a crucible lock (with wasteland) so that you can fireblast, sometimes you appear to have a solid manabase by dropping basics (negating them from dropping a crucilock, wasteland/etc.), sometimes you first turn kird ape with a mountain so they doubt you'll have a forest for backup, or even more, drop a first turn taiga ape with backup fetch lands so you bait out wasteland.  This all comes down to the ability of the player to know what his opponent is holding at any given time, and the odds and probabilities of drawing into the mentioned strip effects.

The creatures:

4  Elvish Spirit Guide:  These are a must; they produce mana and are a solid 2/2 at the worst case scenario.  Also pitchable to the new addition*.

3  Gorilla Shaman:  Monkeys proved to reck havoc on my opponents manabase, as most of the time they'd see play turn two and eat a few moxen, crippling my opponent.

4  River Boa:  "Mana drain...."  "Force it...."   "Response...recall...force it...." were probably the most common phrases I heard when casting this snake.  He is so solid, and puts them on such a brutal clock that almost ensures damage each turn.  The 2 damage a turn is not scary, what is scary is his resiliance and the utmost fear of any player against him; a resolved rancor on his back.

4  Grim Lavamancer:  These guys keep welders back.  I'm not positive about the numbers now, as I found myself siding these guys out quite a bit, and I didn't really have much problem with killing welders anyhow (maybe I was just lucky on my draws for welder removal?); however, against a welder deck I'd want 4 in, and 4 bolts.  This is a possible 3 of, as not every deck you play will run 4 welders.

4  Kird Ape:  A must have 4 of.  They smash face very effectively for 1 mana.  The inclusion of basic lands is super important here, as forest proves to be very strong in this deck.

Burn time..:

4  Lightning Bolt:  A must have, 4 of.  Bolt is very strong to this day, as it shows an amazing damage to mana ratio and is an instant.  Very versatile.

2  Fireblast:  These worked great, and I've been back and forth between using 3 of these, and no s.blast or 2 of these, and 1 s. blast.  They help avoid wastelands, and late game, under maze, can get rid of dead/tapped mountains for damage.  Playing around mana drain with these is always fun.

1  Shrapnel Blast:  Same purpose as above, except replace dead lands with dead artifacts (mana crypt, moxen, ankhs, etc.)

Lock down and kill:

3  Rancor:  I found that 4 of these was too much, as often times I'd go for a lock before a creature drop, and if flooded with these, they proved to be a useless card.  However, if resolved, they often were spectacular.  The best number is either 3/4, to which I am still inconclusive.

4  Root Maze:  A great lock card.  Has some synergy with the added card*, but overall needs to be cast turn 1-3 or is a dead card.  It gives the deck a needed first turn boost/must counter.  As we know, many decks in type 1 capitalize on going first, and this card makes this deck able to do so.  It ruins many forms of combo, and gives slaver/stax a very rough time.  I'd keep this as a four of, because consistancy for resolving one turn 1-3 is crucial.

4  Ankh of Mishra:  Similar to root maze, but has a few differences.  It allows you to stop the crucilock combo, which is quite prevalent in type one metagames these days.  It also allows a first turn must counter effect, like root maze, as you have many ways to power it out first turn for 2 colorless mana.  It puts a ton of pressure on decks running fetchlands, and also decks running things like ancient tomb, city of brass, or anything that tends to have a small drawback on the active player; hence, it makes the smaller, less intense drawbacks of the opponents manabase seemingly larger than they are, which helps accelerate RGzoo's main focus; damage to the dome.  Criticism about this card is great, but from my experience I've only shown amazing results when this resolves.  It has less effect late game, but is still not necessarily a dead card.
   
**The new addition:

I thought about this before, but it should be playtested with now, as it helps get rid of redundant or dead cards for possible effective mana. Chrome Mox, if you haven't guessed already, is the card to which I'm referring.  It can pitch out an un-needed root maze for precious mana, drop a permanent for a close stax matchup, and allows a very slight modification with the manabase (which is quite important in any deck).

The obvious choice I believe here is replacing a forest with a Chrome mox, as the forest is not needed for fireblast, often will drop a root maze and produce green, and forest tends to be a less desirable draw than a mountain most of the time.

The sideboard:

This is bound to change between metagames, but a general rule of thumb is that you don't want to dillute your threatbase more than 4-6 cards.  Hence, we can devote more sb space to oath matchups, as well as other unfavorable matchups (4cc, FCG, etc.).  The new sniper from BoK looks pretty decent for SB tech against SOME oath and 4cc, and there are a few other decent choices as well.  For now, I'm probably keeping my sb as it is, but the changes I make between games will certainly be different

SB: 4  Naturalize
SB: 4  Artifact Mutation
SB: 4  Pyrostatic Pillar
SB: 3  Red Elemental Blast

The only questionable sb choice I have at the time is possibly the REB.  I do find, however, that it allows you to force important spells through when you need to, which is always nice.  It is often not a dead draw, and being red, can be imprinted on the Chrome Mox for extra acceleration.

For those of you who still love this deck, don't give up on it.  I've spent months working on it and I might take a break now, but I'm not giving up on the idea.  It is a very viable and competitive deck as far as aggro goes, and is a very good budget deck for players to start with.  The success of this deck, like any, depends on the player and with time you will learn to master this deck and hopefully we'll see succesful tournament results from you  Good luck guys.

[never]

Did you have any problem with rootmaze + fetch or ankh + fetch?

Aren't those the combinations that you want your opponent to be dealing with, not yourself?

[[supa_t(im)]]

Great job xrobx!!  6-2-0 is an awesome record for the deck.  I wonder if that means if more people played it, it would have have made a splash.

A couple questions of course:

Mana Crypt, did you find this useful?  What were you casting with all that colorless mana?  Was it just another artifact for s. blast?

3 Mox Monkey, why only 3?  I always thought they would be a 4 of because they are a big part of your hate.

Could you possibly go into more detail on how the blasts worked for you?  Especially s. blast.  Did you find either one working better?  Did they effectively do their job of quickening your kill?

For ankh, did you ever get yourself in trouble with ankh?  How much damage do you think it inflicited per game (approx)?

Did you ever want Naturalize MD over any card?

Thats about it, sorry for so many.  Great job once again.

[Revvik]

Did you have any problem with rootmaze + fetch or ankh + fetch?

Aren't those the combinations that you want your opponent to be dealing with, not yourself?

This deck operates on an extremely small manacurve, meaning the land that played the Root Maze is sometimes all that is necessary, and while you wait for your fetchlands to untap, you can still play Kird Apes, Skyshroud Elites, and power out your most expensive spells (River Boa, Ankh of Mishra).

As far as taking damage from Ankh goes, remember that most decks these days rely on winning in one fell swoop, so taking 3-5 from one fetchland is irrelevant to them.

As far as combo goes: if you find yourself losing quite often to combo, reevaluate your maindeck and sideboard hate.  Root Maze is often quite good, but if that doesn't cut it for you, try maindecking 3 Pyrostatic Pillars and leaving one in the board (these are excellent against Type 1 in general, since while you only need to resolve a handful of spells to win, other decks must cast things like Ancestral, Intuition, lots of Moxen, etc.).   Pyrostatic Pillar: it's not just good against storm counts anymore.

Chain Lightning: Sorcery speed, and the "chain" part of it can come into question when a lot of other decks out there run Volcanic Island and 5-color manabases.

A question of my own: what are you killing with Shrapnel Blast that warrants it in the deck?  I see the potential synergy here with the recent addition of Chrome Mox, but if it forces you to run Mana Crypt simply to up the artifact count (Crypt is bad), then I question its inclusion.

Reasoning for question: Mana Crypt is a sign of either a need for incredibly fast mana, or a higher mana curve, neither of which this deck really needs.  Higher mana curves especially, since that just opens the deck up to Mana Drain vulnerability (one reason Call of the Herd was cut from the BC list).

I also think your creature count is a little too low for Rancor, since ESG probably doesn't always count as a creature.  
Can't complain about the results, 6-2-0 is both outstanding and depressing (I'd hate to see more people sitting across from me with this deck, and it's getting publicity...)