Poll- Do you want to see a change in the B&R?

[Triple_S]

The more I think about it, the more I think an H bomb needs to be dropped on the format.  Hitting Bazaar, Intuition, Welder, 3Sphere, Ritual and ESG seems like a good start to me.  Drain in a K-e-e-p-e-r build is alright, but in CS its just stifling to the format but I think hitting Welder should fix this issue.

[Smmenen]

You can't unwind the clock man.  Dominance of mana drain (or any archetype supporting card) would be the death of this format as a real format.

[Kowal]

I'll approach this from a different angle.  Perhaps this will make it a little more clear.

Fact A)  People are not happy with the format as is.
Evidenced by:  Poll results.  44 vs 16?  That's a HUGE gap.  Mind you, these aren't random casual players in round one that are voting here.  These are people who have been part of this very community for several years.  These are people who have been through FoF, Gush, and Burning Wish.  I've been around here since just about when FoF got hit, and I've never seen this many people unhappy with the way the format looks.

Here's some quotes from some of the better known members.

I'm not really enjoying it too much right now, and Mike Flores' (Premium) article The Limit of Interactivity really coalesced my feelings towards it.

I understand that Vintage is always going to be the most uninteractive format. If you enjoy brokenness you enjoy shutting the other player out of the game. However, the level of interactiveness for the whole format is at an all time low. In the past, whenever a single deck reached this level of uninteractiveness, it was removed from the metagame, e.g. GAT and Long.

Every decent deck wins very early, or has powerful effects that lock out an opponent's possible interactions. Decks with interactive primary strategies just don't win: 4cc, Fish, EBA for example. I really feel that at least one interactive strategy should be top notch for us to have a more fun format.

My interest in the format is truly waning right now. This is due to several factors:
1. More important life issues that are taking precidence
2. The stagnation of the format at high profile events that has reduced the interactive nature of the format
3. My increased interest in other formats such as Kamigawa draft, MTGO Prismatic, and Magic Online in general
4. A greater interest in learning to be a better judge. Since the best opportunity I have to judge are the SCG Vintage events in Richmond conflicts with my ability to play in the events.

The way I see it, the current format revolves around 3 cards/archetypes in general: MWS Aggro/Prison, Dark Ritual/Storm/Combo, Control/Welder/Drain. To increase my interest in the format, I would expect atleast 2 of these problem cards to reinvigorate the format at the highest levels (note, this is not intended to steer the thread into a discussion of restrictions, this just my personal thoughts and feel free to PM with your views if they are different).

I'd just like to echo these sentiments. As far as Syracuse goes, I've driven there before to play, and had a blast, and I would recommend everyone do so, but as far as me personally, other things in my life, particularly the girlfriend and job, are simply of a higher priority. I have also been losing interest in constructed magic in general, as the recent sets have been very good draft sets, in my oppinion, and the games are so much more involved. Broken things are fun, but, if I wanted to goldfish, I don't need to go to a tournament.

I think the format is boring as balls right now. I am not going to Cuse because there's nothing I feel like playing outside of DARGON and I don't have the money. I think the boringness is because CHK gave us only a few morsels compared to Mirrodin block. We have a dearth of new, playable cards right now and it's making the format stagnate. If something really neat like Mindslaver comes out in Saviors and creates another archetype, we score, otherwise, we have to wait a while for things to be neat again.

Note:  The above I have a refute for, in that the answer to this stupid monstrous format isn't to print stuff that's so broken we're forced to use it...  The answer is to shake up the format by removing some of the stupid cards.  I'll get to that.

I enjoy playing Type 1... when I can actually play it. I don't mean when I can get time to play it, though that is a factor, but when some decks in the format give you zero control over the game. Losing to a Belcher god-hand? A Trinisphere-Mana Screw lock? Winning via Tinker-whatever turn 1... That's not playing type 1, thats just watching it.

I used to really enjoy playing Type One. Now I find the metagame to be extremely boring and I don't play a lot. I actually find Extended and Standard to be much more interesting because there are far more interactions between players. A Type One game often looks like goldfishing nowadays and I don't like that.

My personal enjoyment of the format is at an all-time low.

Basically, my interest in Magic has waned over the past year mostly because of Mirrodin block and the subsequent reboot that it's required. I also felt the same way back during the days of Saga and its reboot through MM. Right now, I think Type 1 could use a reboot.

That should be enough proof that something is wrong.  Another example I can't quote would be Diaonic and his sidekick Nosre, who no longer even read the mana drain anymore because the format is so terrible at the moment.  (Diaonic some of you may know as the guy who t8ed in Richmond II with 5/3 in the field of oath)

The obvious solution is for something to change the format to make it suck leagues less.  Doug suggests that printing new cards would help revitalize the format by giving us new archetypes, but obviously the only way that will happen is if they can come up with something as bizarre as Mindslaver, or if they print something so retardedly powerful we have no option but to play it (which in turn makes the format suck even more.)

Something needs to go away.

First, the major reasons people are whining about the lack of interaction:  Trinisphere and Dark Ritual.  I've said it before, but just to make sure all the information is here, I'll repeat myself.  Mana Drain encourages interaction.  You must set up a complicated series of tasks before Mana Drain "just wins" as JP and Toad have said.  Now keep in mind I have nothing against these two for saying that.  JP is an accomplished theory writer, but by oversimplifying things like this, it becomes easier to teach the uninformed new things. But taking a leap back in to reality, there are many, MANY situations where Mana Drain resolves, and that player does not win the game.  It happens all the time, and that's why skill has always seemed more relevant until now.  Our premiere control deck has a very random mirror match.  Our non control decks encourage masturbating and goldfishing, which is absolutely terrible.

Trinisphere doesn't give your opponent a chance to play around it.  It's Force of Will or no, which, while acceptable for some people, is the single worst scenerio this format can have.  I equate being able to run four Trinispheres to running four Necropotence.  Both of them can be cast on turn one with some frequency, and both of them are extremely likely to "win" on turn one.  However, unlike Necropotence, you can randomly mulligan in to hands that have off color moxes, and as long as you can still count to three, you can play Trinisphere and win.

Dark Ritual, likewise, is stupid.  Even the least broken of the storm combo decks in TPS can draw a hand with two Rituals and just win this turn, even if your opponent hasn't had a chance to drop a land yet.  Is there any reason to allow this kind of stupidity?  

While Stephen is right in that if you're simply goldfishing, you obviously don't have an opponent.  But what I was implying by saying "requires an opponent" earlier is that you can goldfish TPS, Deathlong, Doomsday, or whatever other dark ritual fueled deck and as long as you repeat the motions fifty or a hundred times, you too can be a successful combo player, leaving very little to still learn from playing against real people.  Whereas if you sit around and goldfish tog or control slaver, you'll be nowhere near as successful as someone who's actually played those decks against people in the past to learn how it works.

Lastly, if you want to make skill relevant in this format (note:  being able to goldfish combo doesn't count as making skill relevant, because it doesn't involve your opponent's skill vs yours) you need to remove Dark Ritual and Trinisphere.  I would also support the restriction of goblin welder, because that would fix the staleness of the format, neuter the most powerful and dominant control deck whilst preserving the interactive cards (like drain), and would eliminate a very random mirror from existance.

Am I happy with type one?  Not in the least.  In fact, I despise it.  I love the community enough that I still travel far out of my way to have fun, the fun I have is in socializing and playing mental magic.  I absolutely dread actually playing this format.

I'm with JP here.  Reboot the format.  Do something to eliminate this problem.

[jcb193]

If Trinisphere were killed, would Sphere of Resistance bring us right back to the problem?  I used to play Sphere in TNT during the Gat days with great success against Gat AND rector.  

Has anyone tested Sphere in the Trini slot?

I realize that Trini locks the person completely out, and Sphere only slows them down.

On the other hand, people argue that MWS shouldn't be restricted because people will play Ancient Tomb instead, but with MWS gone, it now takes at least one more card to pull off a first turn Trini.

[Kowal]

You can still start a mox train with a sphere of resistance in play.

You can still play mana sources.

You can still reasonably Force of Will the Smokestack that comes after.

These are HUGE differences.

[Jacob Orlove]

Sphere of Resistance can also lock the artifact guy out of playing his own expensive goodies. It's symmetrical in a way that Trinisphere just isn't.

[Royal Ass.]

I Voted Yes cause I think the format needs to be shaken up some, however I wouldn't kill the differient archetype defining cards like Drain, Bazaar, and Workshop.  I would take out the cards that surround them making them uber broken such as Trinisphere, welder, intuition, storm cards, ritual etc.  

I believe if you take out the surrounding cards, you will still have the core ones available to make less broken type one feeling decks.  Not to mention the money invested in these things.  I know noone likes to say that, but its a factor.  If you can get the same result by axing either Welder or Drain, which one do you hit?  I say the Welder.

[Triple_S]

Money should have no impact in making a decision on restrictions. In my mind a card should be restricted for its impact upon the format and the level of interactivity that the card is preventing.

[Smmenen]

JKowal, you assume that if people voted yes they are unhappy witht he format.

I voted yes, but I'm happy.  Others did too, but they might have voted to UNrestrict - which does not mean they aren't happy.   My proposal for changes to the restricted list will be unveiled soon.

[Royal Ass.]

Money should have no impact in making a decision on restrictions. In my mind a card should be restricted for its impact upon the format and the level of interactivity that the card is preventing

Ultimatly I agree with that statement.  I was just saying that if you could restrict a cheaper card instead and get the same result, that that would be better.

As far as the debate about Mana Drain that was going on earlier in this thread I just want to add my opinion on why I think it would be bad to restrict it, as I find it a necessary evil. 7 Reasons:

1.   Drain prevents people from haphazardly casting spells whenever they want, especially ones with high casting costs.  I believe this is a good thing.
2.   While it does provide a large mana swing, it is reactive and not completely on the Drain player’s terms.
3.   There are other ways to decrease the power of Drain decks other than killing drain, such as say, restricting Welder if you think CS is too powerful. (Keep in mind, pre CS there was no outcry to restrict Drain, and I’m talking about when Keeper was a dominant deck)
4.   Without Mana Drain, control decks would all but be dead, since Drain is the one card that allows them to compete with the other speed based decks.
5.   I personally feel that Mana Drain is such an integral and historical part of the format that it has become a part of Type One in the same way that Moxes and Lotus have, much more than say, Workshop or Bizaar.
6.   Some people have asserted that a resolved Drain means game over.  All I can say is that I disagree with this and my empirical observations concur with this disagreement.
7.   It’s the name of this site.   [/quote]

[Moxlotus]

If I wanted to nuke the format I'd play Legacy or Highlander.  And I can't believe people are actually wanting a deck to dominate.  I love type 1 because in the last tournament I played in, 9 rounds, I played 8 different decks.  I remember playing Keeper or Sligh every round.  That got real old real fast.  Type 1 is broken.  That is one of the draws to the format.  If Type 1 were not broken, it would not be Type 1.  Do you like playing with broken cards?  If not, then why play the format?  The format IS broken plays.

1. Drain prevents people from haphazardly casting spells whenever they want, especially ones with high casting costs. I believe this is a good thing.

Ritual prevents decks from taking a freaking long time to find a kill. I mean, how fun is it to sit there for 40 turns being completely outdone while your opponent searches for its kill?  I believe this is a good thing.

2. While it does provide a large mana swing, it is reactive and not completely on the Drain player’s terms.

If being reactive means draining any random spell your opponent plays on turn 2 so you can get mana-then yes, it is reactive.

There are other ways to decrease the power of Drain decks other than killing drain, such as say, restricting Welder if you think CS is too powerful.

And there aren't ways to kill MWS decks or Tendrils decks besides restricting the backbones to the decks also?  And why would they need it anyways?  There is no domination.  In fact, Mana Drain has more numbers.

Without Mana Drain, control decks would all but be dead, since Drain is the one card that allows them to compete with the other speed based decks.

Without MWS, aggro would lose almost all disruption and control would easily beat it.  Without DR Dragon is the only viable combo deck left.

 I personally feel that Mana Drain is such an integral and historical part of the format that it has become a part of Type One in the same way that Moxes and Lotus have, much more than say, Workshop or Bizaar.

History-big deal.  That's like saying its ok to restrict Bazaar because it took longer for cards that worked well with it to be printed.  Worst.reason.evar.

Some people have asserted that a resolved Drain means game over. All I can say is that I disagree with this and my empirical observations concur with this disagreement.

Draining a turn 2 anything is next to game over if you have Intuition/TFK/cards in your hand.

I think its just apparent that people are biased towards control because that is what they've played the longest.  They don't want to give up the sacred cow that is Mana Drain because they've played with it forever, but don't care about other decks.  Flat out saying they wouldn't mind if a control deck dominated is ridiculous.  How fun was it when Keeper and Sligh were the only decks?  How fun was it when 4-Gush GAT was the only deck people were playing?  How is Type 2 with Ravager dominating?  I hear that's a pretty exciting and innovative format right now...oh wait.

EDIT-  I have a question for those who are unhappy with the format right now.  Why are you playing Type 1 instead of Legacy of Highlander?

[Vegeta2711]

1. Drain prevents people from haphazardly casting spells whenever they want, especially ones with high casting costs. I believe this is a good thing.

You have to be kidding. So does EVERY OTHER COUNTER and in the case of a permenant, removal tends to make people wary before casting anything w/o being able to use it immediately.

The thing with Drain is, even if you don't immediately lose the game, you're put at an extreme disadvantage. There is no playing resource drain or depleting counters by just running into them. You play a spell, it gets Drained, you either 1. lose 2. opponent draws a bunch of free cards 3. Got lucky.

[Kowal]

If I wanted to nuke the format I'd play Legacy or Highlander. And I can't believe people are actually wanting a deck to dominate.

I just have to chime in again here.

1)  I hate to imply that you're an idiot, but holy crap read that first sentence.  Even a nuked and neutered type one is WORLDS away from highlander in that certain very important cards like Force of Will and Brainstorm are allowed in numbers high enough to expect to see them.  And I swear, if one more blockhead makes the comparison to Legacy...

2)  Read the thread over again.  I never said a deck.  I said I had no problem with mana drain being dominant.  And I don't.  Unlike Trinisphere, Dark Ritual, etc, it encourages you to interact with your opponent, providing opportunities for both players' skill to affect the game.  Royal Ass sums up most of the reasons Drain is a good thing in a post above.


EDIT:  Also, Smmenen, I assume nothing.  I quoted many, many people that feel the way I described just to make absolutely certain everything was clear.  I'd like to get a show of hands of how many people seriously voted no because they want unrestrictions.

[Smmenen]

/raises hand  

Although I also voted becuase I want one restriction.

BUT.  And this is critical.  Your post said people voted here were unhappy.  I'm very happy.  But I still want one restriction.

The fact that you want Drain to dominate is very bad.

[Machinus]

The fact that you want Drain to dominate is very bad.

Isn't that what everyone wants? Historically, most of the strongest and successful decks have been drain based (most recently, tog, slaver, and oath), and it is the THREAT to these decks that people complain about - namely, stuff like led, trinisphere, and ritual (and their counterparts).

Even if you hate playing control decks, don't you still want drain to be a very strong factor in the game? Wouldn't you prefer getting to cast spells for at least a couple of turns (even if they get countered), rather than not getting to cast any at all and having to sacrifice all your permanents, or not even getting to play any permanents in the first place?

A meta-metagame with drain occupying (or sharing) the highest level of dominance is about as stable as this format can get...isn't it?

[Smmenen]

The fact that you want Drain to dominate is very bad.

Isn't that what everyone wants? Historically, most of the strongest and successful decks have been drain based (most recently, tog, slaver, and oath), and it is the THREAT to these decks that people complain about - namely, stuff like led, trinisphere, and ritual (and their counterparts).

A meta-metagame with drain occupying (or sharing) the highest level of dominance is about as stable as this format can get...isn't it?

No.  What I want is a nice balance and diversity with no DOMINANCE.  Dominance is bad becuase it is the opposite of diversity.  

As I say in an upcoming article: the development of vintage has been the development of decks that can compete with mana drain.  If we simply restrict cards becuase they compete with mana Drain or even outperform it (barely though), that's a very bad thing and a huge disincentive to innovate.

[Kowal]

If the development of vintage is to design decks that win without considering the opponent in the slightest, I quit.

[dandan]

I voted neither YES nor NO as I honestly don't know. It seems to a far deeper issue than individual cards. Here's my point -

The biggest change to Vintage decks over the last 18 months has not been the introduction of new cards or the effect of new restrictions/unrestrictions. The changes we have seen are the changes we asked for. We have a Vintage scene with good decks, decks that have gone through team development, decks with a wide variety of tools to take on whatever metagame they need to. We can no longer use sub-optimal decks and expect to win. Look at Keeper. Excellent players have clung to this deck, metagamed it and through their skills, have continued to win far more than they should (which in a way is a good thing, as it shows that player skill is still a vital factor). However, most have us have realised that the way to win in Vintage is to not allow your opponent a chance to win, either by winning before they do anything or by stopping them doing anything or by telling them what to do. This is not a fun thing for at least one of the players!

In short we have a largely non-interactive Vintage metagame at present.

It is, however, balanced in that all of the good decks are capable of doing broken things.

Now, some people are unhappy that Serras and Negators are no longer with us (I think I am in this camp being a casual player at heart who occasionally plays competitively). Many of them want to turn back the clock to the 'golden age' of Type One (as it was called back then). This can't happen. Sorry.
Restricting a long list of cards will change the metagame. It might slow down combo. It might weaken Prison, Control  and might help Aggro or at least Aggro-Control/Agro-Combo (I find it hard to imagine weenie hordes turning sideways for the win anytime soon {FCG is Agro-Combo in my book}). It might not. You might find that Prison digs up City of Traitors and Spheres of Resistance and finds itself stronger in a world with no Mana Drains. You might not. You might find that Control with Shoals gets very strong with no 3sphere and ultra-fast combo. You might not. You might find that combo survives restrictions very well (see the Highlander format) and enjoys not facing 3sphere and Mana Drain. I don't know and to be honest, I doubt if anyone else does.

For me the current dilemma can be summed up by looking at Trinishere. This card is actually a marvel of design. It has a powerful effect but the effect is greatly reduced in power as the game goes on. The casting cost of 3 means its 'standard' appearance is on turn 3, right when its effect starts to nosedive in power. To use it well, you must get it out sooner. As an Artifact it isn't hard to destroy and it even has a clause to turn it off when tapped that most of us haven't bothered to worry about but is quite important with Artifact Root Mazes being printed. However, in Vintage we have Workshop and so 3sphere can be dropped on turn 1 far more oftenthan it is designed to be. The problem isn't Trinisphere, the problem is Trinisphere on turn 1.
The reformers would restrict both Workshop and Trinisphere, the tinkerers seem to be gunning for Trinisphere. However, isn't the real problem the Workshop that gives you 3 mana on turn 1, therebye breaking the casting cost of many Artifacts? The logical (or at least logical to Dandan) solution would be to restrict Workshop but even I can see that that would have a dramatic and IMHO undesirable (although not non-Mind's Desirable) effect on the metagame.

So we appear to be considering a dramtic change with unpredictable consequences, or minor changes with restrictions of (relatively) balanced cards to accommodate the continual unrestriction of cards we all know are grossly overpowered (Drain and Workshop) for either metagame or 'format identity' reasons or logical restrictions based on power levels that would, more than likely have a worse effect on the metagame than either of the two other choices.

Call me undecided.

[virtual]

For me the current dilemma can be summed up by looking at Trinishere. This card is actually a marvel of design. It has a powerful effect but the effect is greatly reduced in power as the game goes on. The casting cost of 3 means its 'standard' appearance is on turn 3, right when its effect starts to nosedive in power. To use it well, you must get it out sooner. As an Artifact it isn't hard to destroy and it even has a clause to turn it off when tapped that most of us haven't bothered to worry about but is quite important with Artifact Root Mazes being printed.

I agree with most everything here.  Trinisphere is ALMOST a greatly designed card.  It has a great design for all non-vintage formats.  It's effect on vintage has probably been stronger than they would have guessed.  My main problem with your comment above is the first part of that last sentence. As an artifact, it is not hard to destroy, but it's effect is similar to that of mother of runes, without summoning sickness, or like that of darksteel forge.  The existance of the card helps to protect the existance of the card.  

The problem isn't Trinisphere, the problem is Trinisphere on turn 1.

A truer statement was never made.  

However, isn't the real problem the Workshop that gives you 3 mana on turn 1, therebye breaking the casting cost of many Artifacts?

 
This is the school of thought that I don't agree with.  Type 1 is about fast mana.  Workshop and Trinisphere are a holy duo.  Alone, either of them might be alright (Workshop is strong, but Trinisphere seems to be the current reason that it's wearing a target), but together they are a problem.  Workshop is, at least minorly, entirely replacable by Ancient Tomb, currently existing moxes, and other forms of acceleration.  Nuking workshop won't make turn 1 trinisphere an unlikely enough occurance for me.  Trinisphere is "replacable" by sphere of resistance, but with a significantly more balanced affect.  

Right now, for a deck to be viable you need 1 of 2 things:  #1.  4 workshops, or #2.  4 Force of will.  When you look at it this way,  the root of the problem should become obvious.

[Bram]

I voted no because I friggin' well like T1 the way it is now. I am aware of the sentiments elaborately described above and I can't honestly say I feel they are nonsensical. Even so, I like our format right now and would get seriously pissed off if they change it.

[dandan]

For me the current dilemma can be summed up by looking at Trinishere. This card is actually a marvel of design. It has a powerful effect but the effect is greatly reduced in power as the game goes on. The casting cost of 3 means its 'standard' appearance is on turn 3, right when its effect starts to nosedive in power. To use it well, you must get it out sooner. As an Artifact it isn't hard to destroy

I agree with most everything here.  Trinisphere is ALMOST a greatly designed card.  It has a great design for all non-vintage formats.  It's effect on vintage has probably been stronger than they would have guessed.  My main problem with your comment above is the first part of that last sentence. As an artifact, it is not hard to destroy, but it's effect is similar to that of mother of runes, without summoning sickness, or like that of darksteel forge.  The existance of the card helps to protect the existance of the card.  

However, isn't the real problem the Workshop that gives you 3 mana on turn 1, therebye breaking the casting cost of many Artifacts?

 
This is the school of thought that I don't agree with.  Type 1 is about fast mana.  Workshop and Trinisphere are a holy duo.  Alone, either of them might be alright (Workshop is strong, but Trinisphere seems to be the current reason that it's wearing a target), but together they are a problem.  Workshop is, at least minorly, entirely replacable by Ancient Tomb, currently existing moxes, and other forms of acceleration.  Nuking workshop won't make turn 1 trinisphere an unlikely enough occurance for me.  Trinisphere is "replacable" by sphere of resistance, but with a significantly more balanced affect.  

Right now, for a deck to be viable you need 1 of 2 things:  #1.  4 workshops, or #2.  4 Force of will.  When you look at it this way,  the root of the problem should become obvious.

OK, I will, in my sweet sitting on the fence way, both agree and disagree with what you say.

Artifacts are currently reasonably hard to destroy. An Artifact that makes all spells cost 3 or more is harder to destroy. I agree. However in a format with lots of Artifacts we should (IMHO) be seeing more anti-artifact effects than we currently do.

Regarding Workshop, although part of Vintage is access to fast mana, there is a huge difference between being able to generate 3 mana and 2 mana on turn 1. If Workshop were restricted, the number of Trinispheres on turn 1 would decrease. It would still happen sometimes. Fine.

I completely agree that there are viable replacements for Workshop and Trinisphere. My line of thinking leads me to the logical conclusion that Workshop should be restricted but I then point out that I feel that such a change 'feels' like it would have bad consequences. As stand alone cards, Trinisphere is a masterpiece of design and Workshop is an accident waiting to happen (look at how careful Wizards and our own CCF are over cards that give more than one mana - holy Temple of a False God!!)

In any case, as they say up north "If in doubt, do nowt"

[rozetta]

I think they could still take a bunch more cards off the B/R list; I voted yes.

[dicemanx]

I voted yes.

I am generally quite happy with the format. The only thing I would do is remove the most offensive elements that create excessive non-interactivity:

1. Trinisphere
2. Turn 1 combo piece(s) - Dark Ritual and Cabal Ritual perhaps

Beyond that I don't think anything should be touched. Aside from games involving turn 1 combo and having to deal with turn 1 Trinispheres, games in T1 are quite intense, interactive, and quite fun. While I believe that a combination of the massive distortion generated by Trini and CoW, along with allowing 10 proxies in many events, has led to the supposed warping of the meta and the emergence of the supposedly "dominant" archetype (Control Slaver),  the world doesn't revolve around NE. There are actually quite a few perfectly viable deck archetypes beyond those that actually get played by the majority of the players in particular regions of the US.

[Revvik]

I voted no because I friggin' well like T1 the way it is now. I am aware of the sentiments elaborately described above and I can't honestly say I feel they are nonsensical. Even so, I like our format right now and would get seriously pissed off if they change it.

Echoed, though I didn't realize this until just last week.  I've been testing with some friends for a tournament approaching, and in our gauntlet we had (among others) 2-land Belcher, Workshop Aggro, and Control Slaver.  The Workshop Aggro matchup, in particular, is worth noting due to everyone's targeting of Workshop:

Out of 10 games, I was never locked down under Trinisphere + Crucible Strip.  Not to say it didn't happen; it did happen in a game 1 but I went right past it to win (sign of adaptation?).  And while he did win games due to Trinisphere locking me down long enough to swing for the win, they were under some unusual circumstances for me.  I equate Trinisphere's existence in the format to this:

If I'm allowed to combo out turn 3 (not counting the two Time Walk turns) from Gush, Intuition / AK and a 40-point trampling Psychatog, then they can have their Trinisphere.  After all, every top deck in this format needs a busted play.  It's fun to play with them, and it can be fun to play against them (in a challenging way, not in a solitaire way).

[Vegeta2711]

You know if I could get more than 1 good game out of 7-9, even though I play a bunch of different decks (you'd figure the numbers would change), I might like the format more.

[Hyperion]

Taking dicemanx's proposal one step further (or back, depending on how you look at it), what happens if you restrict Dark Ritual only?

By doing that, Trinisphere automatically becomes worse because the decks it hoses best are significantly weakened, and the door is opened to slower decks that can't stand up to speed combo but potentially have game against Workshop.dec and control decks, i.e. slower combo like Dragon or even FCG!

[Revvik]

Good one.

Now, along those lines:
If changes were made to where no one Control deck was "dominant" (which it isn't, if you look beyond some state borders), say, by weakening Control Slaver slightly, then this opens up the possibility of the return of some decks such as 4cC, Psychatog-based control, and so forth (decks that usually couldn't stand up to CS).

The cries to neuter cards that kill entire archetypes usually seem like an exaggerated response.  If I felt something had to be done about each deck, I'd pick the following to be restricted:

Thirst for Knowledge
Crucible of Worlds
Land Grant

My reasoning for this is as follows:

Thirst for Knowledge - Incredibly good draw spell synergistic with far too many things.  Undercosted.
Crucible of Worlds - the real offender in Workshop decks (other than the workshops themselves).  Now, in order to lock out a properly built deck, they'd need two restricted cards.  Why not Trinisphere?  Well, 'shop decks (aggro and prison) need a broken play.
Land Grant - enables combo decks that completely disregard the opponent, unlike TPS and Doomsday, both of which are disruptable and give time for at least some interaction.

I honestly feel that restricting Goblin Welder (a creature) would kill MANY archetypes, and not just problem ones.  Decks like Hadley Cerebral Assassin could continue on, Control Slaver is still a viable archetype, and 'Shop decks have a threat on par with the format.

I'm probably wrong, but who the hell cares, I have no control over things.

[jcb193]

I think that the following needs to happen:

1.) Restrict Dark Ritual (even in suicide, its always allowed an "oops" factor).  It took combo to fully show us this.  
2.) Restrict Trinisphere (Sphere of Resitance is still a strong (and fair) first turn play)
3.) Restrict Workshop (simply a matter of time people, do you really think all-artifacts decks are going to get weaker over time)?  Restrict MWS, make lock decks work a little harder for the lock, ie investing 3-4 cards turn one, instead of 2.

Fast mana is what is "breaking T1."  The sooner the fundamental turn, the worse the format.  It is not worse than the Academy days (though faster), because back then, there was nothing other than a pure hate deck that could even have a chance against Academy.  We are blessed with various options today, but we are quickly locking out all non-tier 1 decks.  

Trinishere (in concept) is a godsend to this format (in theory, it starts the game at turn 3), but due to "going first" benefit, Trini is broken.

Watch: Mana Drain, Intuition.

Intuition is going to be a problem.  Back in the day, graveyards were irrelevent and discard was a balancer.  These days, graveyard is a library #2.  I think Welder can be left alone.  

Though i don't play control, and god knows i've played against various forms of The Deck for nearly a decade, i do think it's good for a meta.  It's inherently strong, but still allows an opponent a window of opportunity.  Mana Drain may eventually go, but hopefully not before Intuition or YWill banning.

[Smmenen]

If the development of vintage is to design decks that win without considering the opponent in the slightest, I quit.

Most of the time you tone down the rhetoric, so I will do the same.

The development of modern vintage is clearly marked by the design and innovation of decks that can compete with mana drain.  

Masknaught was designed to fight blue based control.  TnT was built to beat mono blue.  GAT did it best of all and got the axe.  Long did it and got the axe.  But not all of the decks that have done so have got the axe.  

If we restrict simply becuase something does better in tournament than Drain based decks, we essentially end all incentive to innovate.  It would be better to sit in a completely stagnant format where people play bad aggro and think they can beat control, and all the good players play mana drain decks.  You can want that, but it would mean the end of the format or "new school" and a return to the "old school" characterized by stable, relatively unchanging format.  

It is quite evident to me that what is at the heart of nearly all these restricted list struggles is mana drain, one way or the other.  The issue is multifaceted, so its not just about whether mana drain would dominate - its' about the role of mana drain as well.  Mana Drain dominating and permissive dominance would imply that if anything getst good enough to start out performing mana drain, then it would have to be restricted.  What if we restricted Ritual and Bazaar and workshop and then something comes up, say on the power level of bazaar, that suddenly pushes out drain decks.  And then something else comes up.  And then we are back at square one.

Anytime you restrict based upon principles unrelated to dominance/distortion, we get into the realm of the subjective.  That is not an inherently bad place to be, but it is very dangerous.  It is most dangerous if your view is in support of any particular card being dominant.  I could easily see someone who loves Ritual decks or workshop decks hoping to restrict Drain or Workshop or Ritual becuase it threatens their pet decks.  How do we sort out and screen these subjective opinions?  Without an objective viewpoint or test, we can't really validate your opinion over anyone elses.  

At this point, restriction basically becomes a proxy for some other concern - interacttivity, speed, or skill.  I can refute the argument that drain should be dominant under any of those claims as well, if someone is bold enough to make it.

[Smmenen]

Ok, here is a question I have for everyone who is unhappy becuase of a supposed lack of interaction or that the format is too fast:

Would you be happy if the format was entirely turn three combo decks and no control whatsoever?  The reason I ask is becuase the complaint seems to be with the Ritual and trinisphere ending the game on turn one.  I want to know if people are upset really with just turn one issues or the lack of reactive decks in the format.