Poll- Do you want to see a change in the B&R?

[Bastian]

After going through five pages of discussion it's not hard to tell that something's going to happen to the format come march 1st (hey, it's my b-day too:))

You all have been making such a fuss over the need for changes (or not) that I'm betting they'll be restricting a few cards indeed... and I'm betting (that doesn't mean it will happen or that's my opinion. I'll keep that to myself for now)... I'm betting that the cards that are going to get the axe are going to be Workshop, Trinisphere and Goblin Welder, mostly because Workshop and 3sphere have been already mentioned on a mtg.com article after the last B/R announcements and Welder because it has already been mentioned by JP and Stephen at starcity.

Well... at least I do hope that darn goblin goes. When you look at it as a mana accelerant that costs 1 and manages to pull artifacts no matter what their cost is from the graveyard... damn... that's like a creature producing lots of mana for nothing. (but Steve already said this.,.. or JP...)

You're going over this so much that I'm more than sure that something's bound to happen.

[Matt]

Ok, here is a question I have for everyone who is unhappy becuase of a supposed lack of interaction or that the format is too fast:

Would you be happy if the format was entirely turn three combo decks and no control whatsoever?  The reason I ask is becuase the complaint seems to be with the Ritual and trinisphere ending the game on turn one.  I want to know if people are upset really with just turn one issues or the lack of reactive decks in the format.

I vote reactive, definitely.

[rozetta]

I still personally believe that Wasteland is also part of a problem in Vintage. However, like a few other cards, its overlooked as simply being part of the untouchable format-defining cards available. For starters, if Wasteland were restricted, this whole hubub about Crucible would have been nonexistant. Also, how many times have you all lost games to an opponent's 3 wasteland start (Crucible or no)? I bet a lot.

The fact is that even though nowadays mana bases contain basic lands, you still need to run nonbasics if you're playing more than one colour and on occasions, you will draw non-wastelandproof lands in your opening hand. How many of you have drawn an opening hand containing non-fetch nonbasic lands and wondered if you should keep it?

Does not the fact that people are forced into using many (around 5) basics indicate a distortion because of wasteland? Even at the times when Back to Basics and Blood Moon were popular, decks did not run more than one or two basic lands. I'm not saying it should be restricted, but consider that Crucible would probably not see as much, if not any play if it weren't for the ability for a deck to run 5 strips. Crucible without 5 strips would just be a neat way of recurring fetches or a sideboard option versus LD strategies.

The potency of that first turn Trinisphere would be much less of a problem if it couldn't be easily followed with multiple strips or easily crucible-strip.

[mrieff]

I voted no.

Type one seems fine right now, I never had too much of an issue worth 3sphere, or anything with workshops

[arj]

I agree with a lot of people saying that the root of the problem is trinisphere. A 2xtime walk on turn one is simply too good. I don't think that restricting it automaticly requires that dark ritual should also be restricted. Workshop decks still have sphere of resistence and chalice of the void to combat combo. Restricting workshop is also not the solution in my opinion, it simply ruins too many currently played decks .

So I propose to either restrict trinisphere or rewrite it so that it comes into play tapped.

[Bastian]

it simply ruins too many currently played decks .

This is the wrong argument to not make any changes. "Don't make any changes because it'll ruin too many played decks". This definitly feels more like... "Don't restrict it because it's a sacred cow I like to play with".

The card's broken. It's a permanent Black Lotus! Oh well... I'm already getting off the topic, but it was merely to make you understand that you should be stating something more valid than "it ruins too many decks currently played". You should be asking why are they be playing so much and if they're degenerating the format or not...

[knickers]

I'd like to see no changes to the Type 1 ban/retriction list ...
I want to give it a few more months to actually see how or if the scene adapts ... Plus this would give some more time to gather more data ...

[thejinhong]

Pat, this is a awesome thread.  I voted yes and I'm hoping for a Saga era nuke to the B&R list.  Jacob Orlove's targets seemed pretty dead on.  

I'm trying to get more people to get into Type 1 around my area, but its rather difficult when they claim Type 1 isn't fun because of the "turn 2 kill/turn 2 lock".... and they're correct.  

most importantly,
Fast mana must get restricted:
Workshop, the Rituals, ESG, etc