Zvi's Top 50 artifacts of all time

[Magi]

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/feature/253

I can't believe Null Rod didn't make it! One could argue that Null Rod helps define type 1, that Null Rod has had massive historical impact on the format, that at one point Null Rod WAS type 1.

But whatever. Maybe I just love my Rod too much.

Otherwise, it was a good read, especially his alternative lists at the end. Anyone else have any opinions on it?

[Shock Wave]

I appreciated the commentary, strictly for nostalgic reasons. I agree about Null Rod though. He must've forgot about it or something, because there's absolutely no denying the effect that card has had on our format.

[Gabethebabe]

I also missed a certain 12/12 trampling creature that costs 1 to play.

[Magi]

I appreciated the commentary, strictly for nostalgic reasons. I agree about Null Rod though. He must've forgot about it or something, because there's absolutely no denying the effect that card has had on our format.

I believe that his reasoning was that it was a "party pooper", or rather, an artifact hoser (the same reason he mentioned the awful Imi Statue in the same sentence).

Still, I don't see why that merits exclusion from the list.

Maybe I should write to him and let my opinion be known. Or maybe I won't. Actually, I probably won't, but whatever.

[Meddling Mike]

Yeah, I think Null Rod definitely got slighted in this list, I'm also surprised DSC ranked so damn high. It's probably just because I began playing in planeshift, but serrated arrows, jayemdae tome and disrupting scepter don't exactly jump out at me either.

[Bram]

Magi is correct. From the article:

There were a lot of cards that were neat and unique, but just weren't good enough to quite make it. I wanted to let in Horn of Greed, but it wasn't going to happen. Platinum Angel was probably the next card on the list, and it argued that it prevented you from losing the game, but I still say better luck on the next ballot. Null Rod and even Imi Statue wanted in, but I reminded them that this was the artifact list and party poopers were not welcome.

Zvi didn't forget about much. His argument against including Null Rod is mildly amusing. It is after a all a top X list and as such quite normative. This is a really good read and the captions are insightful. Zvi is still the man. When did he lose weigt, by the way? I remember him being fatter in old pics.

I also missed a certain 12/12 trampling creature that costs 1 to play.

Hmm. Yeah, I guess that one could have been in there somewhere.

[Mike Panas]

I didn't see mana crypt... did I miss it in his list?

[Zherbus]

#22 Mana Crypt - Rogue

[Disburden]

Call me silly, but I don't see how Sol Ring beats Moxen for the number two slot. I've owned many sol ring in my day (from Alpha to unlimited editions) and nothing compared to when I got my hands on the moxen. Nothing.

Well, #1 did

Notice the lack of Trinisphere on the list?

[Shock Wave]

Notice the lack of Trinisphere on the list?

Yeah good call. I wonder why, considering that it totally owns our format.

[Godder]

Price wasn't on the list of criteria he was considering. For the most part, Sol Ring is better than most Moxen, in that 2 mana for 1, once, is better than 1 mana for 0, particularly with regard to off-colour Moxen. This may not be the case currently, given the speed of Vintage (and Tendrils), but the list looks at power over time, not only right now.

While Dreadnought perhaps should be on the list, Zvi's comments on Illusionary Mask basically include 'Nought, since that's the usual creature being put into play with it.

Trinisphere has had little impact on non-Vintage formats, so I can see why that wouldn't be on there. Given time, perhaps, but Vintage is only a minor consideration for the Bronze Age.

[Tristal]

I have always believed that if Sol Ring were rare, and not printed in Revised, its value would be comparable to the Moxes.

[Disburden]

Trinisphere has had little impact on non-Vintage formats, so I can see why that wouldn't be on there. Given time, perhaps, but Vintage is only a minor consideration for the Bronze Age.

I wasn't implying that it should be included on the list, because I strongly feel it doesn't at all. I was rather trying to hint at the fact that it wasn't on the list and therefore probably won't be on a certain "other" list in the near future. Most powerful and restricted artifacts that have impacted our format were mentioned on the list.

[orgcandman]

It's probably just because I began playing in planeshift, but serrated arrows, jayemdae tome and disrupting scepter don't exactly jump out at me either.

For a while, two of the scariest plays were drain into scepter, or drain into tome. If something like that happened, the card advantage gained was insurmountable.  That is so easy to discover that it suggests conspicuousness or little need for perspicacity in the observer. the scariest two were drain into mind twist, or drain into braingeyser, but we don't count those because they're not artifacts.

I have always believed that if Sol Ring were rare, and not printed in Revised, its value would be comparable to the Moxes.

I agree. Even back in revised, I remember having a few of these and making insane trades. Like, Sol Ring for Demonic, a set of rituals, AND a Sengir Vampire. It's laughable now, but back then a 4/4 flyer that got tougher by eating scryb sprites was no joke.

[jpmeyer]

Call me silly, but I don't see how Sol Ring beats Moxen for the number two slot. I've owned many sol ring in my day (from Alpha to unlimited editions) and nothing compared to when I got my hands on the moxen. Nothing.

Well, #1 did

Notice the lack of Trinisphere on the list?

Sol Ring beats Moxes because the Moxes only net mana because they break the land rule.

I was actually surprised that Skullclamp didn't make it all the way to #4.

[Mana Duane]

I can't agree that Sol Ring is better than the Moxen. Expecially not a sapphire. Possibly if he had the Sol above the other moxen then sapphire at number 2 i could accept it but there is no way Sol is stronger than sapphire. What would you rather have in your first hand: a sapphire and a land or a Sol and a land? Almost certainly the Sapp since it means turn 1 Mana Drain or turn one Brainstorm off the Mox then play a fetchland and shuffle. The other moxen are weaker but still allow plays like first turn Mana Leak, first turn time walk or first turn Oath. Yeah the two colourless is stronger in the long run but accel is really broken on turn 1, who cares if you draw a land, a mox or a sol ring on turn 4, the difference is irrelevent then. The turn you play it, a mox is stronger than a sol and in a format this fast that's the most important factor. Just look at Steve's old Tog lists: 5 moxen, a crypt, no Sol!

[Smmenen]

In Vintage, I think that Mana Crypt is mostly superior to Sol Ring.  However, Zvi's list is not Vintage Exclusive.  Outside of this format, Sol Ring is probably better.  However, I think to say that Sol Ring is better than Mox Sapphire is patently wrong, if not absurd.  But that doesn't mean reasonable people can't disagree or even craft arguments either way.

[onelovemachine]

It's obvious Zvi wasn't writing with a vintage mindset, but I will whole-heartedly agree with both of your conclusions.  Paying mana to receive mana is not nearly as strong as paying nothing to receive something.  Any type one player knows that.  Moxes also have that colored mana thing that they do.  It makes them really good.

[Komatteru]

What's better depends on what state of mind you take.  If you take a combo state of mind, Mana Crypt is far better than Sol Ring, and I believe it might even be better than Mox Sapphire, or at least on par.  Josh (onelovemachine) has said it himself and I observed it long before: you don't get an appreciation for how much mana Mana Crypt really gives you until you play combo.  When I was experimenting with Meandeck Tendrils, I observed that drawing Lotus in your opening hand pretty much led to a turn 1 win, and Mana Crypt did the exact same thing.  Mana Crypt also had the benefit of existing the next turn in case something should go wrong.  I'm now amazed that Mana Crypt stayed off the restricted list as long as it did.

Now for Sol Ring.  Back when I used to play "T1" in 1998 or so, when I played old school keeper with a handful of power (Ancestral, Twister, and Sapphire, a couple off color Moxen), the card I always wanted to see was Sol Ring.  I used to think that it is utterly insane back then.  It's not as good now as it was, because games are a lot shorter now.  When you needed lots of colorless mana to activate Jayemdae Tome and Disrupting Scepter, Sol Ring was the best thing that was available.  I agree with Todd (Tristal) that if Sol Ring were rare and not printed in Revised, it would be comparable in price to Moxes.  I also suspect that if it were rare and still printed in Revised, it would go for $20-30 easily (it's restriction keeps it from being more).

Despite being a hoser, I think Null Rod should have gotten on that list, as it shuts down more than just Moxes.  We say that Skullclamp isn't insane in Vintage because Null Rod exists and is played, and that's really saying something about the power of both cards.  I was also surprised that Skullclamp wasn't higher.  It's utterly insane.

[Smmenen]

I think that the utility of Mana Crypt in a broader base of decks is greater than Jdizzle is suggesting.   Objectively speaking, Mana Crypt is better in Control Slaver, Goth Slaver, and Tog than Sol Ring.  Mana Crypt is better in Workshops and in Combo than Sol Ring too.  Any deck that anticipates winning within the first 10 turns and has enough 3 casting cost spells should probably find Crypt better than Sol Ring.  However, there are reasons to run Sol Ring instead - such as metagame considerations.  For example, the presence of Fish might make Sol Ring a better choice in Tog.  

In a vacuum, it it hard to truly say that Sol Ring is better than the Moxen for the following reason.  One could say that Sol Ring is better becuase over the course of a game it provides a greater quantity of mana than a Mox.  But on its first turn it is simply a colorless Mox that requires a mana investment that will frequently be a colored source.  As a result, you are probably filtering a colored mana to net a colorless.  The problem is that any analysis of the utility of that investment hinges on an assumption about the number of turns the game will continue.  The longer the game continues, the "better" the investment.  I don't think such assumptions can be made in a vacuum.  Also, in a vacuum, the Moxen should be of equal utility.  Unless we have a clear standard, criterion, or have explicit assumptions, you can't really say which is better.

[Disburden]

Paying mana to receive mana is not nearly as strong as paying nothing to receive something.  Any type one player knows that.  Moxes also have that colored mana thing that they do.  It makes them really good.

That was exactly what I said earlier, I thought I might have went insane since no one was agreeing with me on the topic. I Dont think Moxen (especially the Sapp.) cost 400.00- 500.00$ because they're "not as good as sol ring" which wouldn't cost nearly as much even if not printed in revised.

[jcb193]

The problem with Sol Ring is that you are often spending 1 "colored" mana to net 1 colorless mana.  Using your colored mana to produce colorless often= stalling out.  Back in the day this was great, because turn 1 was not as relevent as it is today.  Plus, as previously stated, there were a lot of mana sinks (tome, factories, vice, ivory tower, serra, scepters), so you used that 2 mana all the time.

[Garth One Eye]

Although there was a lot of debate and a few well written articles about Chalice of the Void, I noticed that it was conspicuously absent from the list.

[Cross]

To be fair Null rod was the number 1

Staffs, Wands, Rods and Shards

Anyone else notice a discreet lack of creatures from the list? There's only like 8. I would have like to have at least seen Triskelion on the list, other possible candidates could have been Titan, Plat, Karn (was #2 golem I think), the ever classic Phyrexian War Beast (I would have used this over Steel golem), and where was su-chi?

I do like his use of classic cards like disrupting scepter and serrated arrows. I think this throwback to the classic age of magic was great.

[Matt]

Steel Golem actually mattered, though, because it was in Necro decks after Ice Age left Type Two. PWB never did much of anything as far as I know.

[Shock Wave]

Trinisphere has had little impact on non-Vintage formats, so I can see why that wouldn't be on there. Given time, perhaps, but Vintage is only a minor consideration for the Bronze Age.

... and SoLoCryptMoxen *have* had an impact on non-Vintage formats?
Obviously, it's Zvi's list and thus the criteria for the artifacts is up to him. However, I feel that cards such as Trinisphere, Null Rod, and Chalice of the Void have had a significant enough impact on T1 to make the list.

[Matt]

Trinisphere has had little impact on non-Vintage formats, so I can see why that wouldn't be on there. Given time, perhaps, but Vintage is only a minor consideration for the Bronze Age.

... and SoLoCryptMoxen *have* had an impact on non-Vintage formats?

I bet no less than 50% of the world's Moxen have spent the majority of their lifetimes in someone's casual deck.

The true omission is Phyrexian Furnace, which was used by half of the entire Extended format for something like seven years.

[Shock Wave]

I bet no less than 50% of the world's Moxen have spent the majority of their lifetimes in someone's casual deck.

I don't think casual magic deserves consideration. We could make a case equally as strong for any artifact card if we're talking about casual magic.

[wizmentor]

If he didn't put null rod in the list because "it's a party pooper"
then he should have had a list of the "top 10 party poopers".
For example (in random order),

1)   Null Rod
2)   Platinum Angel
3)   Winter Orb
4)   Phyrexian Furnace
5)   Tormod's Crypt
6)   Chalice of the Void
7)   Trinisphere
8)   Powder Keg
9)   Engineered Explosives
10)  Disrupting Scepter

Jester's Cap
Mindslaver
Tangle Wire
Icy Manipulator
Nevinyrral's Disk
etc.

I was also looking forward to a list of the top 0 cc artifacts.

[Godder]

Trinisphere has had little impact on non-Vintage formats, so I can see why that wouldn't be on there. Given time, perhaps, but Vintage is only a minor consideration for the Bronze Age.

... and SoLoCryptMoxen *have* had an impact on non-Vintage formats?
Obviously, it's Zvi's list and thus the criteria for the artifacts is up to him. However, I feel that cards such as Trinisphere, Null Rod, and Chalice of the Void have had a significant enough impact on T1 to make the list.

The reason the SoLoCryptMoxen haven't had an effect on non-Vintage formats is because they've never been legal in them. Trinisphere, however, has had little to no impact outside Vintage, and it is legal in other formats.