New B&R List

[Toad]

I'll speculate: Wizards is prone to include one black tutor per block. Now we have exhibit a) Kamigawa block with no tutor as of yet, but one set to be released.

You missed [card]Night Dealings[/card]. No additionnal Black tutor will be printed in SOK.

[Razvan]

I haven't read some of the pages, so this might have been already said, but am I the only one (probably not) that's concerned that Control Slaver and variants will be absolutely incredible and very hard to beat now? Stax was the only deck that could come even close to threatening it.

To those that say Oath has a good game vs. it, yes, it does, but ONLY because it was scared of Stax and Trinisphere. Now that it's out of the way, dedicating 8+ SB cards to it's worst matchup is not out of the question. So can every other deck, that's true, but really, other than some combo protection, and mirror, what else do you fear?

Sphere of Resistance is fundamentally different than Trinisphere. Look no further than Kevin Cron. Look at his SCG9 deck.

I hate trinisphere, it's an abomination, as Dicemanx said. But I fear for the format now... I won't go into the whole cascading argument, but I do think it's a valid concern.

[epeeguy]

The DCI actually just showed us they had no clue about what happens in the constructed formats. They randomly banned Trinisphere in Type One with no actual reason to do it based on format distortance and domination. And they banned billions of cards in Standard because they probably had no clue on what to ban in order to hinder Ravager enough.

Well, I disagree about what they ended up Banning in Standard; I think they really hit the nail on the head with what the ended up Banning, and the format is going to be a lot healthier for it.  Certainly, the Disciple needed to go, as well as the Artifact Lands (though perhaps Darksteel Citadel could have remained).  Ravager was on the fence, and maybe could have stayed with the Disciple and Lands gone...

But still, this set of Bannings in Standard ensures that there won't be quite the problems that there have been, and makes certain that other problem cards (like Shrapnel Blast or Cranial Plating) aren't quite as problematic without dozens of free artifacts to help them out.

As for Trinisphere... I have to agree with JP on this one.  I think this is the beginning of a cascade of Restrictions that are likely to occur over the course of the next year.  While you can argue whether Trinisphere needed to be Restricted, they did Restrict it and what is done is done.  The question becomes, what is the fallout that is likely to occur now, and what is the format going to look like this time next year (let alone in 6 months).

[dicemanx]

As for Trinisphere... I have to agree with JP on this one. I think this is the beginning of a cascade of Restrictions that are likely to occur over the course of the next year.

What is the basis for this? This could have been said at ANY point over the last two years or so. The format has shown us something COMPLETELY different recently. It has demonstrated that it has this so called "buffering capacity" - the ability to keep many powerful archetypes in check based on the power level of the many top decks and the tools at their disposal. The moment that something "unbalancing" enters the fray, the format shifts to deal with the problem and can do so quite effectively without degenerating into the dominant deck/hate deck scenario. Look at Meandeck SX for example - not even a 70%+ turn 1 kill deck can make a dent in the format anymore. Even Control Slaver, which was the target of attack recently, is not nearly as dominant of an archetype as most people think it is. There were even some excellent tools in fighting the archetype that had surfaced in Syracuse.

The format is at a wonderful point where it would be extrememly difficult for *anything* to dominate. This would lower the chances of any such "cascading effect" from occuring. So, unless something horribly unbalancing is printed in the upcoming sets, I predict that nothing will get restricted for a long while.

[Denney The Third]

I read up to page 2 and got bored. Anyways trinisphere was a game annoyance but not an overly powerful card and did not warrant restriction unlike some cards such as Goblin welder which is the key to a slaver combo that has been winning and covering top 8s across the boards. Goblin welders should be the first M:TG restricted creature.
    BTW restricting dark ritual wont stop combo. A kobold clamp combo running songs of the damned and culling the weak easily fills in the loops nad still has a strong first turn win percentage. and if they somehow dont win turn one the clamp has allready drawn them a strong hand for turn 2.

[MarkPharaoh]

Did anyone see this?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=19115&item=5959714554&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

That's just fucking stupid

[epeeguy]

What is the basis for this? This could have been said at ANY point over the last two years or so. The format has shown us something COMPLETELY different recently. It has demonstrated that it has this so called "buffering capacity" - the ability to keep many powerful archetypes in check based on the power level of the many top decks and the tools at their disposal. The moment that something "unbalancing" enters the fray, the format shifts to deal with the problem and can do so quite effectively without degenerating into the dominant deck/hate deck scenario. Look at Meandeck SX for example - not even a 70%+ turn 1 kill deck can make a dent in the format anymore. Even Control Slaver, which was the target of attack recently, is not nearly as dominant of an archetype as most people think it is. There were even some excellent tools in fighting the archetype that had surfaced in Syracuse.

The format is at a wonderful point where it would be extrememly difficult for *anything* to dominate. This would lower the chances of any such "cascading effect" from occuring. So, unless something horribly unbalancing is printed in the upcoming sets, I predict that nothing will get restricted for a long while.

I think you should have kept reading, as opposed to focusing on the first line of my last paragraph.  For one, I don't know whether they should have Restricted Trinisphere or not; certainly there are reasons not to Restrict it (keeps Combo in check, can be dealt with if you adapt to it, etc.) and there are reasons to Restrict it (results in nearly non-interactive games at times).  But, I'm undecided as to whether it should, or should not have been Restricted; I was ambivalent towards it really.

However, the fact remains, like it or not, they did Restrict it.  And, now, the only thing we have to look forward to is a steady series of Restrictions as other cards have to be put in their place with the removal of Trinisphere.  This is, fortunately or unfortunately, the inevitability that we are left with now.  So, over the next year we're likely to see cards like Mana Drain, Dark Ritual and others that end up getting put on the Restricted list because of this.  With one of the "pillars" now gone, the remainder have to be adjusted as well.

As to whether or not it's right that they did this... I don't know.  But, they did do it, and now we get to watch what happens over the next year.

[Freelancer]

I tend to agree with dicemanx, if the format can handle insane decks with 70%+ turn 1 win it can handle a lot...(the format could also handle them WITHOUT trinisphere, it mostly lost due to other forms off combo hate)

Or maybe we should just follow the doomsayers and restrict both ritual and drain to prevent dominance, and to prevent making the aggro control style to strong we might as well restrict null rod and to protect us against straight aggro restrict wild mongrel it is SO broken...In other words lets stop theorizing and let the metagame handle your new broken decks, if it can't handle them than I'm sure the DCI will start to sweep...*shrugs*

[Toad]

The format is at a wonderful point where it would be extrememly difficult for *anything* to dominate. This would lower the chances of any such "cascading effect" from occuring. So, unless something horribly unbalancing is printed in the upcoming sets, I predict that nothing will get restricted for a long while.

If nothing was dominating, why have you been claiming Trinisphere's restriction to be a good thing? That sounds quite antithetical to me. Banning Trinisphere was a clear mistake to me. A first turn Trinisphere has always frightened me FAR FAR less than a first turn Dark Ritual or a turn 2 Mana Drain. First turn Trinisphere means that you will lose the game if the opponent prevents you from getting 3 manas, which is somewhat hard if you play basic lands unless they got a second turn Smokestack. First turn Dark Ritual or turn 2 Mana Drain means you've lost the game. That's so different.

[BigDCool247]

I feel a great disturbance in the force, its as though hundreds of affinity and workshop players all cried out at once and then were suddenly silenced.

All kidding aside, Im not so sure about the restriction of Trinisphere, don't get me wrong I loved an opponent dropping a first turn 3sphere on me. However I am under the opinion that its presence truly helped to lower the role of combo.  Long.dec almost made me quite magic, trinisphere was just a great card you had to be prepaired for.  I truly hope the doomsayers are wrong and that combo will not step out of the shadow once again and make this game a die roll.  Well thats my two cents.

[Freelancer]

The format is at a wonderful point where it would be extrememly difficult for *anything* to dominate. This would lower the chances of any such "cascading effect" from occuring. So, unless something horribly unbalancing is printed in the upcoming sets, I predict that nothing will get restricted for a long while.

If nothing was dominating, why have you been claiming Trinisphere's restriction to be a good thing? That sounds quite antithetical to me. Banning Trinisphere was a clear mistake to me. A first turn Trinisphere has always frightened me FAR FAR less than a first turn Dark Ritual or a turn 2 Mana Drain. First turn Trinisphere means that you will lose the game if the opponent prevents you from getting 3 manas, which is somewhat hard if you play basic lands unless they got a second turn Smokestack. First turn Dark Ritual or turn 2 Mana Drain means you've lost the game. That's so different.

Trinisphere made interactivity in games impossible that is why it was restricted in the first place...I am aware that it wasn't dominating, but that isn't the point at all...
(I know you are responding to dicemanx, but I share his opinion so I had to respond)

I feel a great disturbance in the force, its as though hundreds of affinity and workshop players all cried out at once and then were suddenly silenced.

Affinity and trinisphere don't have a lot off synergy, actually trini is the perfect hoser for affinity...

[Saucemaster]

Affinity and trinisphere don't have a lot off synergy, actually trini is the perfect hoser for affinity...

Dude, I don't play Standard either, but even *I* realized he was talking about banning Ravager, Disciple, and the artifact lands in Type 2.

[Freelancer]

Affinity and trinisphere don't have a lot off synergy, actually trini is the perfect hoser for affinity...

Dude, I don't play Standard either, but even *I* realized he was talking about banning Ravager, Disciple, and the artifact lands in Type 2.

Let's see...ARGH *SMASHES HEAD AGAINST WALL*...bah...you tricked me...this is a T1 forum...bah...Lets forget this small humilation k?


Edit: I blame it on my dutchieness...

[arj]

I think the reason why they didn't make portal legal now is to see if the restriction of trinisphere really makes combo insanely powerful. Adding a lot of tutors would just blur the ability to observe this.

[Fall-Titan]

With trinisphere gone does anyone else think that stax may still see play with it using orb of dreams instead. Sure it doesnt hurt combo as much as 3sphere and but i think it will see SB play at least. Any thoughts?

[Smmenen]

The other thing that needs to be considered is how truly ridiculous Control and Goth Slaver are now.  The only times I saw Rich Shay lose in the post Crucible environment were to Trinisphere decks.  Now that 3sphere is restricted, is Goth Slaver more ridiculous than ever?

Also, is Aggro-Control going to return in a BIG way?

[dicemanx]

If nothing was dominating, why have you been claiming Trinisphere's restriction to be a good thing? That sounds quite antithetical to me.

Because Toad, no matter how clearly the arguments are presented against Trinisphere, people keep on demonstrating their unwillingness to grasp them.

[[supa_t(im)]]

With trinisphere gone does anyone else think that stax may still see play with it using orb of dreams instead. Sure it doesnt hurt combo as much as 3sphere and but i think it will see SB play at least. Any thoughts?

Probably not, it would kill its own cruci-lock.

As for the new restrictions, I find them unecessary.  I, for one, haven't seem any conlusive evidence that trinisphere was creating a lack of interactivity across the format.  Maybe in a couple of matches during a tournament, but not in the format as a whole.  And things hardly got to the point of where the die roll was the deciding factor.

It just seemed, while 3sphere was an annoyance sometimes, it wasn't as bad as everyone was screaming it was.  No worse than say "forbidden orchard, mox, oath, go."

[Fall-Titan]

I know it hurts itself but how many times have you seen stax get a crucilock down on fast-semi fast combo and still win? I am saying that in order for MWS to combat combo now without splasing for FoW it needs to find some 3 cost artifact that can deal with the super speediness of combo. Turn 1 Trinisphere turn 2 stax no longer is available. I dont play Workshop control but i dont want to see a deck die because its only way of stopping combo was restricted. Sure the possibility of 3sphere turn 1 is still there but it is strictly limited to luck. Maybe the aggro MWS decks will re-emerge but i kinda liked the fact that blue was not the sole contributer to control.

[BlackmindKDC]

I think people are wrong about what is going to come back now that trinisphere is basically gone.  It's not combo, it's Aggro-Control (GaT)/ Control (4c).  Before trini's prescence was really felt combo was not dominating, it was solid but not out of control.  Combo while "under" trini has gotten only the unrestricting of doomsday to aid it so its the at the same power level that it was at before trini.  Combo's showings will go up but not insanely like everyone is hyping.  GaT was trying to be optimized then trini popped up and killed it so guess whos coming, fear the Dryad, or not.

Damn you Steve for getting to my point before i did...good job, lol.

[Conan_barberarn]

With trinisphere gone does anyone else think that stax may still see play with it using orb of dreams instead. Sure it doesnt hurt combo as much as 3sphere and but i think it will see SB play at least. Any thoughts?

Probably not, it would kill its own cruci-lock.

As for the new restrictions, I find them unecessary.  I, for one, haven't seem any conlusive evidence that trinisphere was creating a lack of interactivity across the format.  Maybe in a couple of matches during a tournament, but not in the format as a whole.  And things hardly got to the point of where the die roll was the deciding factor.

It just seemed, while 3sphere was an annoyance sometimes, it wasn't as bad as everyone was screaming it was.  No worse than say "forbidden orchard, mox, oath, go."

Orchard, mox, oath= 3 card combo. MWS, trini=2 card combo. 1st turn oath is in no way a sure win anyway, there's a million things that can happen to either: your creatures, opponents spirits, your oath+ he may actually just ignore your oath and win instead.

I repeat what I said earlier: We've gotten rid of the worst kind of kombo (the 2 card combo that randomly won games).
T-H-A-N-K    Y-O-U     D-C-I  !!!!
To handle the remaining kombo decks shouldn't be impossible now when you actually gets to play your Duress/CotV/Stifle/whatever.

/Gustav

[True Lies Ownz]

Wow. The 2 decks that I play for standard and type 1 (affinity and workshop aggro) when I find the time to play (which is very rare these days) have just been axed.  Bye magic.

[Smmenen]

I think people are wrong about what is going to come back now that trinisphere is basically gone.  It's not combo, it's Aggro-Control (GaT)/ Control (4c).  Before trini's prescence was really felt combo was not dominating, it was solid but not out of control.  Combo while "under" trini has gotten only the unrestricting of doomsday to aid it so its the at the same power level that it was at before trini.  Combo's showings will go up but not insanely like everyone is hyping.  GaT was trying to be optimized then trini popped up and killed it so guess whos coming, fear the Dryad, or not.

Damn you Steve for getting to my point before i did...good job, lol.

 Remember what was dominating before Trinisphere started entering the format in a big way?  Three decks 1) Tog, 2) 4cc, and 3) FISH (wasn't dominating but was winning every tournament Marc Perez played in).  

I think Fish will return in HUGE numbers.  That deck is just ridiculous now.  It remains to be seen if GAT will as well though.  

I have a secret to tell.  Marc Perez and I were working on Fish together for SCG Syracuse.  I settled on another deck becuase I simply didn't have enough testing to finalize the Fish maindeck, but here is one conclusion we came to: PLAY BLACK LOTUS IN FISH.  It's totally ridiculously good.  Fish also has the best game one match of any deck I've ever seen against Goth/Control Slaver (which is obviously absurd right now).

[Freelancer]

I think that aggro/control will surely be archetype to at the very least consider for any upcoming post restriction tournaments, since the one thing they are developted around is tempo advantage wich trinisphere effectivily neuters...

I Fear control and aggro/control strategy's much more now after the restriction off trinisphere, maybe the order off restrictions will go: trini-drain-ritual resulting in a format that is a lot closer to legacy in terms off power level and speed...(if legacy is on a scale from 1 to 10 at 5 right now than vintage is on 9 right now and will be after these bannings around 7)
That said I still highly doubt that both combo and control strategy's will over power the meta...(these are my personal feelings, and I don't have that many arguments to support them besides the obvious; DCI trusts our capability to handle the)

All stax has to do is maindeck both sphere of resistance AND chalice of the void to have a decent matchup against combo again (just don't set it on 0 or 2 against TPS that makes baby jezus crie -random comment against stupid MWS players on MWS- )

Edit: the moment I previewed this post there where 3/4 more comments in this very thread, in other words I'm probably behind...But yeah smennen is right lotus belongs in fish, I wonder why I always listen to others...oh well...

[[supa_t(im)]]

Orchard, mox, oath= 3 card combo. MWS, trini=2 card combo. 1st turn oath is in no way a sure win anyway, there's a million things that can happen to either: your creatures, opponents spirits, your oath+ he may actually just ignore your oath and win instead.

I repeat what I said earlier: We've gotten rid of the worst kind of kombo (the 2 card combo that randomly won games).
T-H-A-N-K    Y-O-U     D-C-I  !!!!
To handle the remaining kombo decks shouldn't be impossible now when you actually gets to play your Duress/CotV/Stifle/whatever.

/Gustav

Turn 1 trinisphere isn't a sure win either.  There is so many things your opponent can do to get rid of trinisphere or ignore it if you don't play any other lock component.  Also, turn 1 trinisphere isn't always "workshop, trini, go"  it can be "tomb, mox, trini, go" or even "land, mox, mox, trini, go."  Those are more than 2 card combos.

How come when talking about trinisphere, its ALWAYS the best scenario, but when talking about everything else, its ALWAYS able to be disrupted?

I grow tired of this thread.  It is pointless to argue what will happen now that trinisphere is restricted.  Instead we should be going out and making it happen.

[Toad]

Orchard, mox, oath= 3 card combo. MWS, trini=2 card combo.

First turn Oath WILL win you the game on turn 3 unless your opponent really does something before that. first turn Trinisphere MIGHT win you the game on turn 3 or later if you get cards after that. On a first turn Oath, if you drop a land and pass, you'll be facing a 6/6 dude that will eat your life. On a first turn Trinisphere you drop a land and nothing else happens unless your opponent drops a Smokestack turn 2, which turns that into a 3 card combo too, hardly a bad deal for T1. I've been winning games against Stax after a first turn Trinisphere based on the single power of basic lands. You can hardly do that against Oath.

I actually find that Trinisphere forces interaction between players. If you are playing Combo, you just basically want to ignore your opponent and kill him. When I'm playing Combo, I basically want to Mana Drain whatever they cast on turn 2, even if it's something totally irrelevant, to "win" on turn 3. Trinisphere slows down the format and forces the opponent to take your cards into account in order to execute your game plan. That's forcing interaction. Hardly a bad deal. If you find that Mana Drain is a card that encourages interaction, then you are probably not facing decks that can make an insane abuse of Mana Drain.

Now a lot of "Turn 0" Combo decks become absurd. Slaver (both builds) are absurd too. And two fine archetypes (Workshop Aggro and Stax) are quite dead, despite not behing dominating every single Top8. Sad.

[Denney The Third]

Speaking of combo here's a 2 card combo that nueters slaver and oath:
Orims chant, swords to plowshears. TADA that nasty 6/6 is gone for good. now if your running black you can coffin purge when their possible hydra in oath kills itself. against welders you just pluck them off. Also if your running 4cc you can not only swords the welder but dart/fire them out of play. then you wait and win.

I guess for reasons like this 4cc may take off as well as more combo.

[dicemanx]

I actually find that Trinisphere forces interaction between players.

This is my favorite quote so far. Good job .

[The Atog Lord]

The other thing that needs to be considered is how truly ridiculous Control and Goth Slaver are now.

I'm not sure about this. Trinisphere was one of the factors keeping Death Long in check. AndI'd say that Death Long has better game against Control Slaver than Stax or 5/3 ever did. Beyond that, the small aggro decks that can give Control Slaver so many problems will now emerge, no longer held back by Trinisphere.

And, of course, in October, I'm not sure how well CS will do against the avalanche of Combo that will emerge. It will need some adjustment at any rate. Wizards just killed a huge combo hoser and added a lot of tutoring into the format. I'm a bit nervous about how this will work out.

[VGB]

As for the new restrictions, I find them unecessary.  I, for one, haven't seem any conlusive evidence that trinisphere was creating a lack of interactivity across the format.  Maybe in a couple of matches during a tournament, but not in the format as a whole.  And things hardly got to the point of where the die roll was the deciding factor.

Taking the long view (i.e., regarding player turnover as the driving force behind restrictions), anything that takes the fun out of the game hurts the game.  Whether Trinisphere was actually dominating or produced a widespread lack of interactivity is sort of besides the point, since past restrictions have also been obviously based on the long-term view rather than just short term results (i.e., tournament data).  Long didn't dominate or produce a widespread dearth of interactivity, yet the fact that it patently soured more players than it drew was reason enough to restrict 2 cards.

The business case for the current restriction probably looked something like this (and this applies to any card):

Restriction of 3Sphere will result in the loss of X customers/players.
Leaving 3Sphere unrestricted will result in the loss of Y customers/players.

The answer obviously shows that the DCI regarded the former number to be substantially less than the latter.  The success of the DCI and Wizards is dependent on making sure turnover never results in the net loss of players, hence making a move that results in fewer players is nonsensical.

I consider the health of Vintage (in terms of growth and popularity) as a sort of watermark for the overrall popularity of the game.  Sure, Standard/Block/Limited are the cash cow, and have the greatest impact on Wizard's bottom line in the short term, but it's Vintage that defines the game due to the depth of the card pool, requisite rules knowledge, and the fact that T1 has a certain mythos and appeal due to it being the stomping ground of Magic "design atrocities", where cards not only have huge/swingy effects, but huge pricetags due to their collectability.  T1 also encompasses the history of the game, since every deck that has ever existed can still be reconstructed from the available card pool in a closely approximate form, which isn't true of any other sanctioned format.  Is it merely coincidence that Magic as a whole is doing as well as it is, and Vintage has been exploding?

If you lose a Vintage player, you lose a recruiting tool as well as a customer.  Vintage players are also more likely to play multiple formats, since they are huge fans, by definition.

The fact that T1 exists is probably a bigger proselytizing force than any other current aspect of Magic.