New B&R List

[Juggernaut GO]

well, memnarch is still in to steal your platinum angel rich

[BlueJay]

 Remember what was dominating before Trinisphere started entering the format in a big way?  Three decks 1) Tog, 2) 4cc, and 3) FISH (wasn't dominating but was winning every tournament Marc Perez played in).  

I think Fish will return in HUGE numbers.  That deck is just ridiculous now.  It remains to be seen if GAT will as well though.  

I have a secret to tell.  Marc Perez and I were working on Fish together for SCG Syracuse.  I settled on another deck becuase I simply didn't have enough testing to finalize the Fish maindeck, but here is one conclusion we came to: PLAY BLACK LOTUS IN FISH.  It's totally ridiculously good.  Fish also has the best game one match of any deck I've ever seen against Goth/Control Slaver (which is obviously absurd right now).

Haven't stoped paying fish when trinisphere and MWS showed up, i still think Fish will still have some problems when it comes to MWS + Cruci + Random Fat (5/3 comes to mind) so i think the format will even itself out.

Agreed on Black Lotus.

[Toad]

I actually find that Trinisphere forces interaction between players.

This is my favorite quote so far. Good job .

Trinisphere means you cannot win regardless of what your opponent is doing. First turn Trinisphere means you can't play 3 Moxen and 2 Dark Ritual to Minds Desire for 8 on your first turn. Trinisphere means you can't play Goblin Welder on your first turn leading to a turn 2 Intuition or Mana Drain for the game. It slows down the game. I've won many games out of a first turn Trinisphere. You'll have hard time beating "Turn 0" Combo decks if you are not mulliganning into Force of Will. Trinisphere forces tactical interaction between both players. Dark Ritual and Mana Drain end the game in a far more abrupt way. What I like when playing Combo is sideboarding for game 2 without even having seen an opponent's card on the board. Call that interaction.

I'm sorry for you that you can't understand that.

[CHA1N5]

The result of this will ultimately be subtle and mostly psychological.  Workshop Aggro will actually be hit much worse by this restriction than $T4KS.  $T4KS will live on, 5/3 will have a harder time.  Combo will get a lot of attention over the rest of this year and old control decks of every flavor will be dusted off again.  People will remove Rack and Ruin from all sorts of decks.

In the end, we'll end up with Combo vs. Control vs. Workshops all the same.  The best thing about this whole business is that it will get people thinking outside the box... something that they should have been doing all along.

[Smmenen]

Sometimes the problem is that people aren't thinking sufficiently IN the box *cough* canada *cough cough*.

[epeeguy]

Trinisphere means you cannot win regardless of what your opponent is doing. First turn Trinisphere means you can't play 3 Moxen and 2 Dark Ritual to Minds Desire for 8 on your first turn. Trinisphere means you can't play Goblin Welder on your first turn leading to a turn 2 Intuition or Mana Drain for the game. It slows down the game. I've won many games out of a first turn Trinisphere. You'll have hard time beating "Turn 0" Combo decks if you are not mulliganning into Force of Will. Trinisphere forces tactical interaction between both players. Dark Ritual and Mana Drain end the game in a far more abrupt way. What I like when playing Combo is sideboarding for game 2 without even having seen an opponent's card on the board. Call that interaction.

I'm not sure that you're doing yourself any favors with that example actually.  That is to say, it seems to me that first turn Trinisphere isn't forcing any interaction at all; rather it is basically putting in the other player in such a position that they lose a huge amount of tempo and then struggle to catch up.  Nor is forcing a player to mulligan into a Force of Will "interaction" either; it seems that each player is simply trying to either A) preserve their ability to Combo out or B) create a lock that the other player can't get around.  IMO, that's not a lot of interaction to me.

Perhaps you could better define what you feel is "interaction" here?

[Smmenen]

Under Mike Flores' definition of Interaction, Toad is right.

[epeeguy]

Under Mike Flores' definition of Interaction, Toad is right.

Of course, the question that begs being asked is "Is Mike Flores' definition of interaction right?"  And, while I may respect his opinion, I'm not sure that it is right.  Because, I think that there's also an unanswered question here, which is: Can cards that force players to be interactive eventually go to the extreme of being non-interactive?  That is to say, they go so far as to simply spoil the other player's plans, while preserving the one players advantage.

I think that's where Toad's example falls apart; that is it goes so far to the extreme that it becomes a non-interactive situation (against some decks, the other player becomes a non-issue).  Flores has some excellent examples of cards I would agree with as being interactive... but I'm not sure that I'd agree that Trinisphere does that.  But, like I said, I'd like to hear Toad (or anyone else) further explain their opinion here as to whether or not Trinisphere forces interactivity between players.

[justindz]

Toad:  Your concern that Trinisphere encourages interactivity by slowing down the game is valid.  However, my general observation has been that, with Workshop decks, Trinisphere slows the game down for your opponent but not you.

Would Shell of the Last Kappa be a decent MWS drop against storm combo decks?  It might force bounce or artifact removal before "going off" similar to Trinisphere.  However, it would also require untapping with it in play.  Just brainstorming.

I'm not suggesting--god forbid--a replacement for Trinisphere.  There are three mana alternatives against combo (In the Eye of Chaos?, Arcane Laboratory) but they all involve the horror of colored mana.  Also, it is important to note that Trinisphere was only restricted which means that a small but significant number of games can still be non-interactive bland fests.

Anyway, if combo suddenly takes over the world, I can dig out mono-black again, whee!

[Disburden]

The result of this will ultimately be subtle and mostly psychological.  Workshop Aggro will actually be hit much worse by this restriction than $T4KS.  $T4KS will live on, 5/3 will have a harder time.  Combo will get a lot of attention over the rest of this year and old control decks of every flavor will be dusted off again.  People will remove Rack and Ruin from all sorts of decks.

In the end, we'll end up with Combo vs. Control vs. Workshops all the same.  The best thing about this whole business is that it will get people thinking outside the box... something that they should have been doing all along.

  I couldn't agree more about $T4KS still being a playable deck. I've been concerned for some time that 3-sphere haters would get their way and being a STAX player I was quite upset at the thought of combo running rampant. With a few weeks preparation I was able to throw together a reasonable list (using the 5C mana base) that was able to hold off combo for some reasonably tight match-ups. The mana base like the one used by Kevin Cron also supports some Maindeck combo hate if that was ever to be needed to pull a victory over the combo matchup.
   I'm sad to see the trini go, but there's nothing I can do about it. I was sad when the skull got the axe too though .

[jazzykat]

I have to say that I am pleased myself. While I don't think that stax is the juggernaut some people purport it to be, the trini lock is about as mindless as it gets.

Stax players can still hate on combo, there are sphere of resistance and CotV which are something good against combo.

I would like to pat  wizards on the back this time.

[justindz]

My vague definition of interactivity in magic would be based on both players taking a certain minimum number of turns on average over the course of the match (at least 2, not more than 4?) not counting obvious exceptions like scoops or quadruple mulligans.  It would additionally require that those turns be actionable or meaningful.  For example:

If the combo deck goes off on the first or second turn with a statistically meaningful frequency and the opponent's hand and board are irrelevant, this is a problem.  The opponent either does not get a chance to play the game or the opponent's actions can be largely ignored.

If the workshop deck drops a Trinisphere on the first turn with a statiscally meaningful frequency and the opponent's subsequent turns are rendered ineffective, this is a problem.  The opponent's game essentially has to start later than yours and for the significant stages of the game, the opponent's hand can be largely ignored.  Notice, I don't factor the board in this equation because Combo is largely operating from either the hand or powering cards that are below the 3-mana threshold (heavy amounts of 0-cost artifact mana, for example).

Recreating this situation with something like Chalice of the Void requires either 1) multiples so that the 0 and 1 slot can be blocked or 2) at least some experience and judgement to block effectively.  Playing a Trinisphere to strong effect requires a Trinisphere.  A Trinisphere may promote virtual interactivity in that it prolongs the game against combo, but it discourages true interactivity in the sense that cards are played out actively and reactively on either side of the board.

Now, this is a definition based on my cozy little world and how I would like Magic to play out (which includes Combo being significant, mind you).  I'd like to see people for or against Trinisphere's interactivity expound in a similar sense so that these arguments are clearer.  I don't buy the claim that discussing the restriction is pointless because a more thorough understanding of this interactivity stuff can only make Magic more rewarding to engage in for the Johnny players out there like me who want the opponent to do things in the first few turns.

Edit:  I'm also ethically opposed to any format in which Mono-Black cannot compete

[smilerz]

To be fair though, alot of people have alot of reason to be pretty upset.  Good Reason.   This is not Berserk.  Berserk was completely misunderstood in terms of its potential application.    If you scroll back and read the thread on berserk (which I participated, so I remember), you'll see that.  There is reason to suggest that this may be a huge mistake.  They have restricted a card now in this format based on interaction concerns entirely, and not dominance or distortion.  If Workshop decks fall out of the format almost entirely, which given their trend on Sylvan's statistics is the logical prediction, the format will rapidly consolidate and shift.  Those shifts can lead to a restriction cascade.   I'm not saying they will, but there is good, rationale, logical reasons for suggesting that it might.  The risk is there.  I'm not saying it will happen immediately, but a decision has been made which could trigger long term ramifications that are not good.  We should be aware of those risks and realize them now so that we can monitor the outcome.

If the format actually does degenerate into the world that you envision, which I find a little far-fetched, is there anything from recognizing the balancing factor of 3Sphere and unrestricting it?

As for the impending combo doom, the storm-based decks have not changed (with the exception of further restrictions) since 3Sphere was printed.  So if pre-3Sphere combo looks exactly like post-3Sphere-restriction combo, why is there a new level of concern?

[wonkey_donkey]

I actually find that Trinisphere forces interaction between players.

This is my favorite quote so far. Good job .

Trinisphere means you cannot win regardless of what your opponent is doing. First turn Trinisphere means you can't play 3 Moxen and 2 Dark Ritual to Minds Desire for 8 on your first turn. Trinisphere means you can't play Goblin Welder on your first turn leading to a turn 2 Intuition or Mana Drain for the game. It slows down the game. I've won many games out of a first turn Trinisphere. You'll have hard time beating "Turn 0" Combo decks if you are not mulliganning into Force of Will. Trinisphere forces tactical interaction between both players. Dark Ritual and Mana Drain end the game in a far more abrupt way. What I like when playing Combo is sideboarding for game 2 without even having seen an opponent's card on the board. Call that interaction.

I'm sorry for you that you can't understand that.

I see your point, but arguably trinisphere forces only one player to interact. 5/3 and Stax are going to try and do largely the same thing no matter what is done by the opponent, whether that be a crucible lock/smokestack lock/juggernaut etc. The fact that the trinisphere-player's opponent is unable to play on autopilot doesn't necessarily make the game any more interactive. Your logic would be correct if trinisphere stopped anything from happening until turn 3 (which, granted, it sometimes achieves), but there are all too many situations in which interaction is prohibited by the asymmetric nature of trinisphere.

Trinisphere is not just a card that slows down the game - it can just stop one player from being able to play out their game plan. Is that any different from combo's aims - to stop the game for the opponent whilst getting on with your own game? If not (in principle, if executed differently), then trinisphere cannot be said to encourage interaction.

Sorry for re-hashing some of the old cliches, but they seem appropriate for once.

Tom

[Smmenen]

To be fair though, alot of people have alot of reason to be pretty upset.  Good Reason.   This is not Berserk.  Berserk was completely misunderstood in terms of its potential application.    If you scroll back and read the thread on berserk (which I participated, so I remember), you'll see that.  There is reason to suggest that this may be a huge mistake.  They have restricted a card now in this format based on interaction concerns entirely, and not dominance or distortion.  If Workshop decks fall out of the format almost entirely, which given their trend on Sylvan's statistics is the logical prediction, the format will rapidly consolidate and shift.  Those shifts can lead to a restriction cascade.   I'm not saying they will, but there is good, rationale, logical reasons for suggesting that it might.  The risk is there.  I'm not saying it will happen immediately, but a decision has been made which could trigger long term ramifications that are not good.  We should be aware of those risks and realize them now so that we can monitor the outcome.

If the format actually does degenerate into the world that you envision, which I find a little far-fetched, is there anything from recognizing the balancing factor of 3Sphere and unrestricting it?

As for the impending combo doom, the storm-based decks have not changed (with the exception of further restrictions) since 3Sphere was printed.  So if pre-3Sphere combo looks exactly like post-3Sphere-restriction combo, why is there a new level of concern?

I'll answer that indirectly.

Take Mana Drain decks.  Psychatog decks basically went away becuase of Fish and Crucible/3Sphere.  The Drain decks that survived are those that were able to compete with that ramped up power level: certain Oath builds and Control/Goth Slaver.  Restriction does not unwind the clock becuase the decks that you are left with are the product of a dialectic.  They are more powerful than before the dialectic began.  See my point?

[dexter]

WHY is it that everyone seems to fear that combo will take over the world with trinisphere gone from vintage? Combo wasnt dominating between Okt 2003 - > June 2004 when trinisphere wasnt legal in vintage. Chalice came and hoosed long.dec WotC just overkilled long which was already dead when CotV became legal.

@ smennen

About Gothslaver. GS in generall will be weaker when trinisphere isnt a 4-off in every deck with workshops. GS works best in a meta with alot of MWS decks and has a good matchup against most of thoose decks since it can run welders of its own and have solid counter backup for them. With trinisphere gone people will start playing more aggro decks, fish etc and less of the workshop aggro and staxx that we have seen during the last year. So your fears about GS becoming so good, uberbroken etc etc whatever will not come true. GS dies and rolles over against all GOOD kombo decks that run disruption of its own and if you add the fact that it has serious problems against any random aggro deck with null rods the deck will not be a good option after trinsphere is gone.

@ toad

First of all why are all your examples ive seen god hands , for example;

mox + orchard + oath?
Ritual, mox, mox , ritual , desiree?

Im pretty sure that its always you who have told me not to discuss god draws from a deck when i have been involved in a disscusion with you. And i think i have seen you use the argument "broken things are a part of vintage" many times. So now its ok to whine about "god" draws and the brokeness when trinisphere is gone?

Just wanna end this post with again thanking WotC for making a very wise decision.

[VGB]

Take Mana Drain decks.  Psychatog decks basically went away becuase of Fish and Crucible/3Sphere.  The Drain decks that survived are those that were able to compete with that ramped up power level: certain Oath builds and Control/Goth Slaver.  Restriction does not unwind the clock becuase the decks that you are left with are the product of a dialectic.  They are more powerful than before the dialectic began.  See my point?

Actually, Trinisphere produces an axis of upper-tier decks that exclude archetypes such as Psychatog and variants of Aggro/Control/Combo that auto-lose to Workshop->3Sphere.

The current best decks aren't necessarily strictly better than their pre-3Sphere incarnations, they have just been tweaked to the axis imposed by it.

Now that 3Sphere decks are being booted out of the axis, other archetypes can (re)emerge, which will result in a new axis of best decks that play on each others' weaknesses.

[Moxlotus]

Chalice came and hoosed long.dec WotC just overkilled long which was already dead when CotV became legal.

If you think a single Chalice hosed Long.dec you weren't playing the deck correctly.  Long.dec was FAR from dead with CotV.  It was more of a nuisance than the absolute nuts.

[smilerz]

As for the impending combo doom, the storm-based decks have not changed (with the exception of further restrictions) since 3Sphere was printed.  So if pre-3Sphere combo looks exactly like post-3Sphere-restriction combo, why is there a new level of concern?

I'll answer that indirectly.

Take Mana Drain decks.  Psychatog decks basically went away becuase of Fish and Crucible/3Sphere.  The Drain decks that survived are those that were able to compete with that ramped up power level: certain Oath builds and Control/Goth Slaver.  Restriction does not unwind the clock becuase the decks that you are left with are the product of a dialectic.  They are more powerful than before the dialectic began.  See my point?

That seems to be a metagame concern and not necessarily one of unchecked powerlevel.  If combo increases in prevalence and Fish can't keep it in check, wouldn't it necessarily follow that people will forgo playing Fish in favor of Psychatog to match the increase in combo decks?  While the metagame has changed over the time in question, the cards are essentially the same so a new dominance of combo now doesn't make sense to me when it didn't dominate before.  It is possible that Crucible adds just enough change in the metagame to make Psychatog decks unplayable, but developing a Crucible-proof psycatog deck shouldn't be a huge hurdle to overcome.

@Zherbus:  I'm probalby just really dense, but why the delay in making Poral legal?  I don't see what it is you are hinting at.

[Toad]

@ toad

First of all why are all your examples ive seen god hands , for example;

mox + orchard + oath?
Ritual, mox, mox , ritual , desiree?

MWS + Trinisphere is ALSO the best hand a Stax or WS Aggro player could have. And contrary to the Trinisphere opening, they does not become extremely worse when being on the draw. And they involve cards that do not suck by turn 3 or later.

[Shock Wave]

Trinisphere means you cannot win regardless of what your opponent is doing. First turn Trinisphere means you can't play 3 Moxen and 2 Dark Ritual to Minds Desire for 8 on your first turn. Trinisphere means you can't play Goblin Welder on your first turn leading to a turn 2 Intuition or Mana Drain for the game. It slows down the game. I've won many games out of a first turn Trinisphere. You'll have hard time beating "Turn 0" Combo decks if you are not mulliganning into Force of Will. Trinisphere forces tactical interaction between both players. Dark Ritual and Mana Drain end the game in a far more abrupt way. What I like when playing Combo is sideboarding for game 2 without even having seen an opponent's card on the board. Call that interaction.

I'm sorry for you that you can't understand that.

Awesome. That is awesome. So let me get this straight. Interaction is defined as playing a card so that your opponent can't do fuck all while you slam your cards up his pooper for the next 2 turns?

Why are you talking about Turn 0 combo decks? Is Meandeck Tendrils good where you come from or something? Regardless of what you say, combo has only a remote chance of winning on turn 0, and if ever it comes to the point where it does, Wizards will bring down the restriction hammer again.

Mana Drain ends the game in a more abrupt way than Trinisphere!? Wow, we must be playing 2 totally different games.

[Law]

smilerz I can think of a few resons why they gave the delay in making portal and such legal.

People most likely do not have any of the cards now.

They think that it will give time for people to make decks that use the portal cards.

So they can see what other changes they need to make after they see what people have to say about the cards from those 5 sets.

People can buy any busters and boxes that are left of those sets as people try to get the cards need need from them.

To let the prices on the secondary market even out on these cards, that are now worth something to the full game.

So the new cards will not come in half way in the current t1 season.


Thats a few right off the top of my head. Now the said part is it could be one of those, all of those, or none that O posted right there. Im serton there might be more resons even wizards delayed it as long as they did.

[BigMac]

After reading 10 pages i was debating with myself if my points were new enough to actually post them.

Well, i decided to post them anyways.

I do not know if the restriction of Trinisphere was a wise one. The future will tell that.

However, beginning to whine about what type will become more viable, better or dominating is in my oppinion a bit like looking into a crystal ball. Nobody is particularly good at it without practise. (some crystal balls are quite nice to look into and see your own mirages while being doped)

Lets just look at some facts. Stax allready existed before trini, it just was a lot worse as a meta choice. So stax will suffer. The reason why i do not mind this deck to become worse, is because now people will actually have to start playing well again, instead of dumbly mulligan into a MWS trini first turn to have an actual position to be able to win. As the MWS trini combo is a frequent one and a stupid one. With the possibility of 8 lockpieces in the next 2 turns (which makes that chance quite awesome) this deck can win stupidly without asking much skill. So from this point of view, i still dont mind as it askes for better play from the stax player.

Other decks that will suffer some of its loss are the.tinker and 5/3. However, both these decks are more aggro than control making the loss of trini not that hard. There are enough possibilities to still win against combo, oath and drain/slaver.

Combo will stay the same. I think the biggest reason combo still hasnt made that big of an impact is partly because of the skill lvl the player has to have to actually do well with it. I understand that there are stupid plays as well, but those include a multitude of cards first hand and still good play to get around a FoW to get a first turn kill. Combo existed before trini, during trini and will survive after trini is restricted but will always be limited due to the playing skill required.

Drain/slaver in my oppinion is the deck hardest hit by this restriction. This actually may sound weirdt but the multitude of aggro decks becomming viable after trini disappears will make drain/slavers job that much harder. A recurring slaver still will be game-ending (also a not to interactive way of winning btw). However slavering a mono green beatdown deck while not being able to recur it to often will not win the game as mono green has almost nothing to actually do stuff to itself. Same goes for mono black and as for mono red, it will most certainly throw away as many dd as possible with the prospect of a slaver turn. Also fish will become very viable against this deck again.

Another deck being hit hard with this restriction is mono blue. For the same reasons as drain/slaver this deck becomes very fragile again. As dealing with threats allready on the table isnt its strong point, never has, never will.

Fish as well as other aggro decks will become viable again due to the multitude of control choices made in the near past.

This restriction will bring back golden oldies, hopefully some new decks, and it will mean the reoccurance of null rod in big numbers as well as chalice is almost a must play card for most decks to get a hold on combodecks. I dont think it will mean a cascade of new restrictions, i think it means the reoccurance of a couple of supposedly dead decks.

Again i have no crystal ball and these are all assumptions based on some experience. I think post-trini will look a lot like pro-trini. At least now people dont have to think: I need to be able to survive a turn 1 trini. It is the loss of a stupid, dumb wincondition.

[CHA1N5]

I do not know if the restriction of Trinisphere was a wise one. The future will tell that.

I'd just like to point out that in the future there will be very little evidence to support that this restriction was "wise".  This restriction is primarily a PR decision.  It was made without regard for the metagame, so any effect on the metagame will not justify it.  You'd have to poll those who complained to R&D/DCI to find out if they are happy next month.

[Machinus]

I do not know if the restriction of Trinisphere was a wise one. The future will tell that.

I'd just like to point out that in the future there will be very little evidence to support that this restriction was "wise".  This restriction is primarily a PR decision.  It was made without regard for the metagame, so any effect on the metagame will not justify it.  You'd have to poll those who complained to R&D/DCI to find out if they are happy next month.

Do you know how the DCI makes their decisions, or how they made this one? How do you know that they haven't looked farther ahead than we have, and know what is best for the format? I am not saying they do, but how can you be so sure they don't? What do they care if we play Type 1 or not?

I don't think I am the only one irritated by the level of exchange occuring between people like Forsythe and Menendian, and there may be others speaking also. In particular, the part about knowing what cards to "stock" before they get dumped into the Vintage pool. When did Zherbus (to the DCI, the only team member who founded a critical Vintage web site) get a hotline to the DCI?

Also, congratulations on the Lotus. Running three trinispheres and succeeding is certainly going to prove an important fact for the future of prison decks.

[Toad]

Awesome. That is awesome. So let me get this straight. Interaction is defined as playing a card so that your opponent can't do fuck all while you slam your cards up his pooper for the next 2 turns?

Interaction is playing with cards that force your opponent to deal with them. Trinisphere does that, because It prevents the opponent from doing stuff with Trinisphere on the board. Mana Drain does not, because It just reads "Thanks for that X mana that will allow me to *gain* the game next turn". This is how Intuition Slaver works. It will Mana Drain whatever you are casting by turn 2, just for mana. It will just totally ignore the opponent to realize its game plan. Combo decks do the same with Dark Ritual, they want to ignore their opponent. Prison decks can't do that. They have to take the opponent's cards into account. They have to modify their game plan according to the opponent. That's interaction. Calling Mana Drain an interactive card is quite bullshit to me considering the Mana Drain decks are Control-Combo nowadays. They want to goldfish as often as possible.

Mana Drain ends the game in a more abrupt way than Trinisphere!? Wow, we must be playing 2 totally different games.

Yeah, probably. I'm actually casting cards that win the game on turn 3 out of Mana Drains. Not Nevynirral's Disks or other randomness. How many games are you going to lose if you Mana Drain something relevant by turn 2 into Skeletal Scrying, Intuition+AK or Mindslaver? Not much. How many games are you going to lose if you have a first turn Trinisphere against, say, TPS? FAR much more. You can even play a Stax deck with 4 Trinisphere, 4 Sphere of Resistance and 4 Chalice of the Void, you'd still die to TPS.

Trinisphere is also just OK by turn 1 when you are on the draw, and becomes FAR worse by turn 2, even worse by turn 3. Mana Drains and Dark Rituals remain all their power. They probably even get better since you have more ressources afterwards to abuse the amount of mana gained of it.

[Smmenen]

I don't think I am the only one irritated by the level of exchange occuring between people like Forsythe and Menendian, and there may be others speaking also. In particular, the part about knowing what cards to "stock" before they get dumped into the Vintage pool. When did Zherbus (to the DCI, the only team member who founded a critical Vintage web site) get a hotline to the DCI?

I'd like to say that this is horribly out of context.  I talked with Forsythe at Gencon AND SCG VA - where he played Oath and I persistently bugged him about Portal.  It's not like I have a secret correspondance that no one else has access too.  I have been bugging him for years about Portal.  You could have been too.

[VGB]

Note that in its best case scenario, Mana Drain is still simply a counterspell that makes your next spell or two cost less.  It also still requires {U} up and for someone to cast a spell into it.

Best case for Trinisphere is, well, it's a 1 mana Time Stretch that happens to also include the ability "you win the game".

And I agree with Chains completely - but probably differ in that I feel that the restriction of Trinisphere was a Good Thing, even though it is the cornerstone of many of my favorite decks.

[Machinus]

I don't think I am the only one irritated by the level of exchange occuring between people like Forsythe and Menendian, and there may be others speaking also. In particular, the part about knowing what cards to "stock" before they get dumped into the Vintage pool. When did Zherbus (to the DCI, the only team member who founded a critical Vintage web site) get a hotline to the DCI?

I'd like to say that this is horribly out of context.  I talked with Forsythe at Gencon AND SCG VA - where he played Oath and I persistently bugged him about Portal.  It's not like I have a secret correspondance that no one else has access too.  I have been bugging him for years about Portal.  You could have been too.

Concerning portal, certainly I knew that it was a matter of time, and I think most other people did too, but we are talking about cards with a print run smaller than Arabian Nights, right? Is it good for the community to do stuff like this?

Concerning the context: Kevin displays the same attitude that you do in his post, one that I think is really wrong. Team Meandeck is not the DCI, and certainly doesn't have the information or the capacity to analyze or explain their decisions. And if you DO have that information, is there anything that can give you the right to it?

[Demonic Attorney]

Interaction is playing with cards that force your opponent to deal with them. Trinisphere does that, because It prevents the opponent from doing stuff with Trinisphere on the board.

Wait.  Trinisphere is interactive, because it forces the opponent to deal with it, yet it prevents the opponent from doing stuff while it's on the board?  How can the opponent deal with it then, since they can't do stuff?

Mana Drain [isn't interactive], because It just reads "Thanks for that X mana that will allow me to *gain* the game next turn"... It will just totally ignore the opponent to realize its game plan.

I disagree.  Even though I question whether or not Trinisphere was problematic enough to be restricted, I believe Mana Drain to be FAR more interactive than Trinisphere.  First, Mana Drain can be played around by an opponent.  Only idiots will walk an unprotected 3 or 4cc spell into a turn 2 drain.  People dumb enough to do this deserve to lose; hopefully it will teach them to plan their plays better.  Better players can hold back and build up lower cost threats, bait, or counters to protect their key spells from Mana Drain.  The process of doing this seems like interaction to me.   Trinisphere cannot be played around like this.

Second, a good use of Mana Drain requires at least some strategic planning; a good use of Trinisphere requires a turn 1 Workshop and nothing more.  Barring the above scenario involving a stupid player walking into turn 2 drain, turn 3 lose, players using Mana Drain need to take into account the possibility that their opponent might be baiting them, or might have a means of either countering the drain or stopping the spell that will be cast off the drain mana.  For example, someone has four land and two moxes in play, with 4 cards in hand, and a Goblin Welder.  They're playing Slaver.  They tap the moxes and a land to play Thirst for Knowledge.  Do you Drain it?  Their next play could be Tinker.  They could protect their spell with Force of Will, or stop your play next turn with a Drain of their own and do something really bad to you after that.  All these considerations foster a good degree of interaction in my opinion.  This degree of planning and strategy is not involved with Trinisphere.