[Article] Forsythe & the B/R

[Machinus]

What does all this mean for the future? What's getting banned next? The answers, I hope, are “nothing” and “nothing.” This radical change should fix things for the foreseeable future. We've made significant changes in our entire R&D process over the last couple years—everything from design philosophy to our playtesting regimen have been overhauled at least somewhat since the days of Mirrodin—cold comfort in times like this, I know, but true nonetheless. We aren't making some sort of policy change that will have us banning cards based on perception over reality down the road, so expect business as usual on that front. We made a bold move and can only hope it works out, for our sake and yours.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/af56

[Meddling Mike]

If combo rears its head, we'll worry about it later. But for now, we want to people to play their cards. Really.

While it does serve a role of keeping combo decks in check

Well, this at least give me a glimmer of hope that they do have something in the works to keep combo from getting out of hand.

[Kowal]

They already printed plenty of answers.  The absense of Trinisphere is no apocalypse or combo summer.

Toad made fun of people once upon a time for not maindecking any artifact hate.  Why is it so bad to have to maindeck some combo hate?  Run a stifle or two.  Make your deck chalice friendly.  It's not that hard.

[Moxlotus]

This definitely reinforces the fact that DCI doesn't look at tournament data very much, but looks at interactivity in the format (although different interpretations of "interactivity exist" they go with the "able to play your cards" definition).

While I personally don't agree with this approach-there's nothing I can do about it except revise decklists and look to create new ones.

[Marton]

You can do something. Write an open letter to WOTC and get people behind you to back up your opinion. I know I definately would be on the unrestriction side.

[Kowal]

He just blatantly told you in that article that Trinisphere is bad for business because it wasn't fun.

I could make a good list here of people in the Hadley area alone who could give two shits about type one with Trinisphere in it, but are much enthused now that it's gone.

Nobody is going to quit because Trinisphere is no longer present.  But plenty of people did when Trinisphere was common.

For WotC to unrestrict now would be absolutely ludicrous, and to think you can try to make them make that bad a decision is stupid.

[VGB]

Hello?

[Hi-Val]

You know, I think I would have been fine if they said "Trinisphere - Restricted for BAD ART", though I don't think other people would appreciate that so much. All in all, I must paraphrase Shakespeare--

"O Brave New World! With such interesting decks in it!"

Let's give the format a chance before we hop in the waaaaambulance and complain.

[Meddling Mike]

I'm gonna have to agree with Kowal here, they're not going to unrestrict trinisphere.

I would disagree with you on the matter of running combo hate MD as being similar to Toad urging people to run artifact hate MD. The difference I would say lies in the fact that running artifact hate has a broader range, almost any deck in vintage runs some sort of artifact, however I don't think hosers like say arcane lab or sphere of resistance have the same applicability, in any non-combo matchups I feel either of these cards would be severely lacking. Chalice has a wider scope and may prove to fill the vacuum left by trinisphere, however, I could easily see new incarnations of death long going off before a workshop based deck could make the judgement of what deck he's playing against and thereby make the correct decision with regards to what he sets his chalice at. Perhaps I'm wrong, I suppose only time will tell for sure.

I'm also in general unhappy about the prospect of having to run a few cards MD that keep me from autolosing to combo, my CS list is already quite tight as is, even though CS has ample means of getting rid of a "dead" chalice or a sphere of Resistance.

[MuzzonoAmi]

You know, I think I would have been fine if they said "Trinisphere - Restricted for BAD ART", though I don't think other people would appreciate that so much. All in all, I must paraphrase Shakespeare--

"O Brave New World! With such interesting decks in it!"

Let's give the format a chance before we hop in the waaaaambulance and complain.

I agree, but you ruined the iambic pentameter.

Azheri would not be pleased.

And really, anyone who is worried about combo has been wearing Trinisphere blinders for quite some time. There's nothing to worry about.

[Machinus]

I don't think hosers like say arcane lab or sphere of resistance have the same applicability, in any non-combo matchups I feel either of these cards would be severely lacking.

Actually, SoR is good against most decks.

[Jacob Orlove]

Azheri would not be pleased.

He might be mad at hi_val, too.

There are plenty of ways to run combo hate MD. If your deck both needs MD combo hate to have a chance, and doesn't have room for any, then play a different deck.

[Metman]

I cannot believe that amount of complaining so many of you do.  You guys need to remember that this is a business first.  They will make decisions based on their projected profits.  If enough people stop playing because of a card, they will do what it takes to keep those people from becoming uninterested.  

"I'm also in general unhappy about the prospect of having to run a few cards MD that keep me from autolosing to combo, my CS list is already quite tight as is, even though CS has ample means of getting rid of a "dead" chalice or a sphere of Resistance. "

This argument is so shallow.  What makes this game so awesome is the creativeness and uniqueness.  It's always changing and should always be changing.  To complain that you don't want to have to make an adjustment because of a metegame is ridiculious.  Ignoring an archetype because your decklist is too tight will be what keeps you from winning.  Don't compain what makes this game so great.

Z

[Revvik]

Personally, the only surprising thing about this week wasn't that Trinisphere got hit, it was that Forsythe failed to mention that any successful decklist starting with 4x Mishra's Workshop was immediately followed by 4x Trinisphere.

At the very least, "what's done is done," "ding dong the witch is dead," and what have you.

I honestly don't see what all the fuss is about.  The Banned & Restricted List should be taken as one thing and one thing only - a rule of the game.  And not just a rule of the format, since across formats it can often feel like you're playing an entirely different game.  I take "Trinisphere is Restricted" the same way I take "You may play one land per turn."

The reasons Forsythe presented make a lot of sense - while you can walk into a Mana Drain early and lose (but not know it), you get the illusion of fighting back because you're trying to play your game out, which is a lot more fun that sitting there watching a Workshop player lay down piece after piece, sinking you into this "again..?" feeling.

Trinisphere's effect on the format was felt, and now we get to know what it feels like without it.  Does this mean that we get a summer of combo?  I don't think anyone here can say 100% for sure.

I could go into much better detail on this, but overall I think that without Trinisphere putting constraints on deck design, the decks that we know can and will change drastically, which will be a big step in the direction of ensuring that combo doesn't overwhelm us (which wouldn't be SO bad - if rounds took as long as a coinflip, then we wouldn't have to spend so much time in unventilated shops during tournaments   ), since the changes could be towards the direction of strengthening the combo matchup.

One aspect of Vintage that hasn't been seen in a while is Aggro Control (barring Fish, since it's more common than a high school freshman girl with a weblog).  The loss of Trinisphere, and its crippling effect to Workshop Aggro (at the moment, although I believe it to be FAR from weakened) opens up this abandoned field, which can now play its efficient, undercosted beatsticks and near/free permission/disruption.

On a final note, I believe that this means that Mishra's Workshop will never be restricted.  They just printed the most powerful card in recent history that could be cast off a first turn Mishra's Workshop, and instead of taking the route of restricting the Workshop (the card that facilitates the insanity that we love   ), they restricted Trinisphere instead.
The message sent by that seems interesting, because I wonder if it holds true for Mana Drain, Ritual, and Bazaar, since I view Drain, Bazaar, and Workshop as the core representation of the power level of Vintage (if you disagree with Bazaar, pretend I said Dark Ritual, although Ritual isn't on that level to me due to personal beliefs).

[Meddling Mike]

This argument is so shallow. What makes this game so awesome is the creativeness and uniqueness. It's always changing and should always be changing. To complain that you don't want to have to make an adjustment because of a metegame is ridiculious. Ignoring an archetype because your decklist is too tight will be what keeps you from winning. Don't compain what makes this game so great.

Wow, this from a guy who is incapable of finishing his post with a coherent sentence. Now, on to my point, I am perfectly aware of and adjust to the, as you called it, "metegame" the problem exists when entrenched archetypes have to make drastic changes adding narrow cards like combo hosers simply to stand a fair chance against these decks.

Actually, SoR is good against most decks.

Yes, however the symetrical effect limits the number of decks in which it can be effective. Running it in Control Slaver for example would provide no advantage except in the combo matches it would be intended for. In almost any other matchup it would be more likely to be counterproductive for the CS player.

[Revvik]

So maybe Sphere of Resistance wasn't a good example for Control Slaver.  Negativity aside, Control Slaver can run a good deal of anti-combo cards.

For the Meandeck Tendrils (god will people play this?!) and Belcher matchups:

Mystic Remora

This card (since post-sideboarding, you'll be playing first because Combo is going to be SOO out of hand) will help you draw into those Force of Wills and the Disrupting Shoals you could be running.

You can actually free up a lot of slots, at least in your sideboard, now that Trinisphere is no longer a problem.

If you are aware of and capable of adjusting to the "metagame" (I think GLOBAL ENVIRONMENT is a better term than slinging metagame around) then you will find a way to adapt.  To a problem that hasn't reared its head yet.

EDIT: If you're worried about the adaptation, the Vintage Open forum could be better used for discussion on changing your decklist / running new tech.

[Meddling Mike]

Ok Revvik, let's see what we can do here.

So maybe Sphere of Resistance wasn't a good example for Control Slaver. Negativity aside, Control Slaver can run a good deal of anti-combo cards.

Ok, So could you give me an example outside of workshop based decks where sphere is a good example?

Furthermore, I myself acknowledged that CS CAN run anti combo cards MD, The problem is that often times these cards are narrow (arcane lab) or hinder ourselves as much as our opponents (Sphere of Resistance) and just in general suggest an unhealthy metagame if it comes to the point where these cards need to be run MD. But as I said in my response to Kowal I don't have some sort of crystal ball that shows that combo will become dominant in the new format, just some speculation on my part.

From what I see, people can already play TPS/ deathlong style decks with some success as it stands, with one of the most powerful MD cards against it removed in the format as well as the introduction of some new and powerful tutors I can only see it getting more powerful and consistent unless:
1) WotC prints something over the next few sets that has the same MD appeal as trinisphere that is damaging to combo.
2) The metagame begins to include ample MD hate for combo.

But again, just one man's opinion.

With regards to Mystic Remora, I've tested it with my teammates some time ago, although we didn't test it for an exceedingly long period of time I noticed that my opponents could play around it fairly easily. The cumulative upkeep kept my mana tied up and shut off my drains. When the time was right he would go off by casting a number of spells that didn't appear to warrant counters, then follow up with a cabal therapy to remove the 1 or 2 FoW's that I had drawn into.

If I wanted to bring in SB hate vs. Combo I'll stick to things like Arcane Lab. Trinisphere was never taking up spots in my Sideboard, the way I felt that it kept combo in check was because decks like stax and 5/3 would run it main and typically combo would roll over and die to a turn 1 Shop--->Trinisphere unless it could make 3 land drops (Provided none of these were hit by a wasteland/strip) followed by a rebuild/H.Recall/Chain of Vapor. This was a deterrent to playing combo in the format, I'm not sure replacements like chalice/sphere of resistance will be as daunting.

If you're worried about the adaptation, the Vintage Open forum could be better used for discussion on changing your decklist / running new tech.

This particular thread is regarding Aaron Forsythe's B/R list changes and their explanations, as such I posted that I was glad that WotC was aware the combo could become out of hand in the near future. Ben posted his thoughts that the metagame adaptation would be adequate to keep combo from becoming out of hand and the discussion simply progressed from there. I don't feel I've misused or misunderstood the uses of this thread or forum in any way, shape or form.

[Hi-Val]

If you feel that you need to maindeck hate against combo now, just run Duress in CS. You already run black, and Duress does a lot in other matchups as well. There's no need to Chicken Little about running anti-combo cards in the maindeck when you have plenty of good options.

[Meddling Mike]

If you feel that you need to maindeck hate against combo now, just run Duress in CS. You already run black, and Duress does a lot in other matchups as well. There's no need to Chicken Little about running anti-combo cards in the maindeck when you have plenty of good options.

I'm not worried about it now, I think it could potentially be a problem in October, but not now.

Duress is an excellent suggestion

I'm sorry if I'm coming off as being a "chicken little", that's certainly not my feeling or my intent, I'm confident, partially thanks to this article, that should combo become a problem that the metagame can't handle Wizards is prepared to do something about the matter.

[mogote]

I'm not worried about it now, I think it could potentially be a problem in October, but not now.

Shouldn't Stifle be a good option against combo? A great amount of decks is already running blue anyway.
Stifle should be of help against the main combo decks (Storm-based combo and Dragon, Belcher to some extnd) while also being useful in other areas.


Regarding the article itself I found a statement from Aaron Forsythe himself regarding the discussion about this article on the Wizards forums. There, people voiced their opinion that the DCI banned cards due to people complaining a lot about cards being "unfun".

As I guess that some people won't read those forums I thought I might just copy his statements from there:
"One, very little about this makes me happy.

Two, it wasn't banned because of whining. Whining happens a lot all the time (witness the glory of these boards). It went beyond whining... tournament attendance dropped (not sales, btw, we don't ban cards for sales), shop owners were reporting flagging interest in the format, sanctioned tournaments fell. Re-reading my article, that isn't super apparent, granted, so I'll go over it more next week.

If people want to whine, fine by me. We learn stuff from whining. But when they actually start acting, it is clearly a real problem (unlike, say, the card face change before 8E... lots and lots of whining, no noticable change in customer behavior... in fact, 8E went over better than 7E)"

He obviously is addressing Standard here, but the same can probably applied to Vintage.

[epeeguy]

Personally, the only surprising thing about this week wasn't that Trinisphere got hit, it was that Forsythe failed to mention that any successful decklist starting with 4x Mishra's Workshop was immediately followed by 4x Trinisphere.

Well, I think he kind of said that (perhaps not quite that directly) when he said "Trinisphere is a nasty card, no bones about it. It does ridiculous things in Vintage, especially combined with Mishra's Workshop. As I've said in a previous column, we almost restricted it before it was even released."  So, I would think they were pretty aware of that particular interaction, and the potential issue with interaction between the two.

[Vood]

I just hope they keep printing restrictable cards. For a card to be played in vintage, it needs to be incredibly strong and broken. Look at Kamigawa, only Gifts Ungiven is strong enough to be played. All other cards are either crappy or find a use or two in some random decks. Mirrodin block had such an impact in Vintage that all decks use at least a couple of cards from it.

[Revvik]

I'm sorry if I'm coming off as being a "chicken little"

Misinterpretations, oh well.  There really is a lot of versatile "combo hate" that isn't really combo hate.  Stifle is excellent, even buying a turn against Goblin Welder decks and cutting mana resources if you have nothing better to do with it.

All that crap aside, I'm pretty ecstatic about the change.  Forsythe hit it on the head when it was a "fun factor," since now a greater amount of decks are viable.

Vood:
I believe their attitude was, they'd rather print powerful cards pushing the envelope until it crosses the border into a "mistake" than print sub-par cards that won't get played.

Despite any issues with "unfunness," Mirrodin block was pretty fantastic.  I don't think a block like that can come around all the time, and this will impact Vintage until the next time they do something like this to us  

[Marton]

Hmmm, no actually, Aaron forscyte article said trinisphere was banned because it was 'unfun'. However, if you read Aaron Forscyte reply on the forums you notice that the restriction was based on tournament data showing less and less players (which they used to indicate that the cards were 'unfun'). However, now, I come to question the validity of the DCI's decision considering trinisphere because the DCI uses only DCI-sanctioned data to conclude that trinisphere was dominating type-1 tournament. Where the problem arises is when you compare this to non-sanctioned tournament data, which is known to show that trinisphere/workshop were NOT showing signs of dominance.

In other words, what I am saying here is that the DCI's restriction of trinisphere seems unjustified in light of Aaron's post, which clarifies how 'fun' and 'unfun' was determined.

BTW, DrSylvan, think you could plug me some numbers here for trinisphere use in DCI sanctioned tournaments vs unsanctioned ones ?

PS: for reference's sake, here is Aaron's post on the forums:
PS2: here's the original article: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/af56

Quote:
Originally Posted by wraith985

Quite frankly, the thought process that you guys went through just makes me even angrier, and not even just because I can no longer play Ravager or KCI in Standard (though that still makes me angry). No, I am incensed because of the precedent you have now set for future bannings. You say that you're making a statement, but do you know what the consequence of that statement is? You've let all the whiners and complainers of the world know that if they don't like a deck, all they have to do is complain, and the deck will be banned for being 'unfun', format balance notwithstanding....

I hope you're happy, R&D. I hope you're happy.

One, very little about this makes me happy.

Two, it wasn't banned because of whining. Whining happens a lot all the time (witness the glory of these boards). It went beyond whining... tournament attendance dropped (not sales, btw, we don't ban cards for sales), shop owners were reporting flagging interest in the format, sanctioned tournaments fell. Re-reading my article, that isn't super apparent, granted, so I'll go over it more next week.

If people want to whine, fine by me. We learn stuff from whining. But when they actually start acting, it is clearly a real problem (unlike, say, the card face change before 8E... lots and lots of whining, no noticable change in customer behavior... in fact, 8E went over better than 7E).

[Sarcasmic]

However, if you read Aaron Forscyte reply on the forums you notice that the restriction was based on tournament data showing less and less players (which they used to indicate that the cards were 'unfun'). However, now, I come to question the validity of the DCI's decision considering trinisphere because the DCI uses only DCI-sanctioned data to conclude that trinisphere was dominating type-1 tournament. Where the problem arises is when you compare this to non-sanctioned tournament data, which is known to show that trinisphere/workshop were NOT showing signs of dominance.

In other words, what I am saying here is that the DCI's restriction of trinisphere seems unjustified in light of Aaron's post, which clarifies how 'fun' and 'unfun' was determined.

Do keep in mind that the B&R list only applies to Sanctioned tourneys.  If you're unsanctioned, you can do whatever the hell you want in your tourney.  Once you've lost sanctioning by allowing proxies, you can pretty much do whatever you want wrt the B&R list.  Ergo, Wizards doesn't need to officially consider you in their data.

Here's my two insignificant cents: Trini was unfun to play against, in a way that combo isn't.  Trini is often compared to first turn combo wins (in terms of unfunness, lack of interaction, whatever).  Here's where I think they differ: with trini, you get turns, but can't do anything.  That makes you feel like you could be playing, but you're not.  Combo doesn't do that.  You watch a magnificient, mathematically beautiful series of plays, and then scoop.

I'm not saying combo is better, or shouldn't be touched.  I am saying that Trini, in virtue of giving you useless turms, is inherently unfun.  It prevents you from playing your cards, but keeps you alive.  That's just not fun: sitting there, not being able to do anything, and going through your turn ("Island... go" at best).  At least with combo, you get to watch a nice play (the 10-15 spells played by combo is a lot more fun than Shop->Trini to watch) before you go get a soda.

[Moxlotus]

Here's my two insignificant cents: Trini was unfun to play against, in a way that combo isn't. Trini is often compared to first turn combo wins (in terms of unfunness, lack of interaction, whatever). Here's where I think they differ: with trini, you get turns, but can't do anything. That makes you feel like you could be playing, but you're not. Combo doesn't do that. You watch a magnificient, mathematically beautiful series of plays, and then scoop.

I'm not saying combo is better, or shouldn't be touched. I am saying that Trini, in virtue of giving you useless turms, is inherently unfun. It prevents you from playing your cards, but keeps you alive. That's just not fun: sitting there, not being able to do anything, and going through your turn ("Island... go" at best). At least with combo, you get to watch a nice play (the 10-15 spells played by combo is a lot more fun than Shop->Trini to watch) before you go get a soda.

Wait-isn't that exactly what control does?  It lets you sit there and pretend to play, but you really aren't in the game after a turn 2 Drain->card drawer.  From my point of view, everything you said you don't like about trinisphere can be said about Mana Drain too.

[Jacob Orlove]

A lot of angry comments based on stuff Forsythe didn't actually say in his forum post.

Read Aaron's post again. He is talking about STANDARD, not vintage. Your entire post, and indeed your entire crusade against the restriction of trinisphere, has very little basis in fact.

[Zherbus]

After everything people say about Mana Drain pretending to let you play, I wonder why more people just don't concede to a resolved Mana Drain.

[Freelancer]

After everything people say about Mana Drain pretending to let you play, I wonder why more people just don't concede to a resolved Mana Drain.

One off the (many) principles you learn while getting better is to never concede unless there isn't any time left or you want a soda (k maybe not the soda) or a different very important reason not related to the game state...So stop wondering will ya?

Trinisphere doesn't let you play cards, instead off playing a game you are suddenly put aside for a couple off turns (you cannot consider draw-land-go participating in a interactive game)...Now that is unfun no matter what your reasoning against it is...

On the other hand mana drain lets you play a spell wich gets countered...Trinisphere doesn't even let you play the spell...Now thats annoying and frustrating...

[Toad]

It went beyond whining... tournament attendance dropped (not sales, btw, we don't ban cards for sales)

That's so funny considering T2 = Mirrodin Block + Sakura Tribe Elder !
It's quite obvious to me the T2 bans happened because of the terrible sales of Kamigawa Block. Probably more than half of the current T2 decks run 0 Kamigawa block rares !