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Eric Dupuis
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« on: March 17, 2005, 02:15:16 am » |
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I'd like to start by stating that this will be a less detailed post than I would like. When I have more time, I will follow up with another more comprehesive post. The matter at hand is the influx of tutors from the portal sets. Due to their sorcery speed, they lend themselves to combo more easily than any other deck.
With the influx of Imperial Seal, Personal Tutor and Grim Tutor things will certainly change. Cruel Tutor may make the cut, I'm not sure. The problem with all these tutors is that they help combo and that's about all they'll do.
Long has been a strong deck since it's creation. Buring wish and LED combined to make a deck that was fast, resiliant and very abusive. After the restrictions, Deathlong showed its head. Adding the Academy Rector/Cabal Therapy combo to the remaining shell of Long made up for much of the lost power. One Buring wish and 4 deathwishes found Will for the win, or a sometimes a solution from the sideboard. This deck is underplayed, but very solid. It hasn't dominated nor do I expect it every will. There is something more dangerous on the horizion though.
Grim Long, as I'm calling it, IMO will lead to the restriction of Grim Tutor, and then likely Dark Ritual. The biggest problem is being able to run Will main. With the amount of tutors coming in, we now can run Will main and find it easily. The tutor used can then fetch the Tendrils all to easily. I can't stress enough how much stronger this is. The wishes RFGing themselves made it necessary to have another card to work with. Now any tutor will often end the game.
In this deck Grim Tutor is very strong. It is game over with enough mana. In mulitples, it can get lotus/will or even grab a swarm/cabal therapy to go off. The damn card can grab anything in the maindeck. It is beyond versitile, it is broken. The fact that it functions as both a card to set up the kill, but a card that can actually end the game by itself is amazing. It is IMO certainly going to be restricted. I hope it will happen before it enters the format for 2 reasons. One, I hate seeing people spend money on cards, only to have them restricted. Two, I honestly think it will dominate the meta game.
The tutors are better then the wishes for many other reasons. Wishes are basically a kill card. They rarely can set up the combo, only finsih it. Many tutors can find lotus or other acceleration such as academy. They all can find cabal therapy with a rector on the board. To simplify, the wishes can basically find any card in the deck (60 cards) as opposed to sideboard cards (which was really just Will almost exclusively) The sheer versitility is entirely superior.
Mutliple wishes isn't so hot either. Mutliple Tutors is game ending. You can grim tutor for lotus, and it replaces the 3 mana you just spent. This makes the Will you're going to cast from the other grim tutor game ending.
I played a drawn out game the other day vs Sensei. Several key spells were forced, starting with a turn 1 necro. After 4 brutal turns, my hand was Vampiric Tutor, Brainstorm and LED. GG
Here are some points that have scared me.
Every card in the deck is better when you run Will main. Brainstorming can randomly find it and win out of no where, for example.
Demonic or Grim Tutor with enough mana is game over.
Vampiric or Imperial Seal + Brainstorm is almost always stronger than Demonic. It pumps the storm count more. (mystical and personal tutor are basically the same here too)
Will is now available for savage to decks.
Grim Tutor's redundancy is a threat for certian. I'm certain it will hit the restricted list. My concern is what will happen after that. With Grim Tutor, Imperial Seal, Personal Tutor and possibly Cruel Tutor to work with, will we have hit a critical mass for tutors? Will a deck running all of those tutors be not only viable, but superior? If that is the case, the only thing I can see happening is the restriction of dark ritual. I never though I would see the day ritual got restricted. Is it fast approaching?
As an endnote, this is the only deck I've tested with the tutors. If anyone has tested TPS or other combo decks with these new cards, I'd like to hear about it as well.
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Hi-Val
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« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2005, 02:38:37 am » |
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I personally don't see Imperial Seal doing that much. People will play it and realize that they have to cut incredible bombs to squeeze it in combo. Heck, I even hate drawing Vampiric. I think that it WILL find use in Stax builds like Kevin Cron's that use a bunch of tutors to find bullets. There might be a deck that comes out that uses the critical mass of tutors to just find bullets to the format, a la Maher Oath. Time will tell.
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« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2005, 09:27:10 am » |
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There are two questions that pop into my mind on this issue: What is the list that you are testing? Does the tutor count squeeze the maindeck such that it is only playing one bomb (Will) which is vulnerable to countering? LongDeath has, in current forms, about 31 mana cards, and this: 4 Death Wish 1 Burning Wish 4 Duress 1 Hurkyl's Recall 1 Tendrils of Agony 1 Tinker 1 Timetwister 1 Memory Jar 1 Wheel of Fortune 1 Windfall 4 Brainstorm 1 Necropotence 1 Mind's Desire 1 Yawgmoth's Bargain 1 Demonic Tutor 1 Mystical Tutor 1 Demonic Consultation 1 Vampiric Tutor 1 Ancestral Recall 1 Time Walk What are you cutting? This seems pretty tight.
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Matt
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« Reply #3 on: March 17, 2005, 09:37:27 am » |
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-5 Wishes, +4 Grim Tutor, +1 Will seems like the obvious place to start. Seal could go in for Consult, possibly. Windfall also looks like the weakest remaining bomb.
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dandan
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« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2005, 10:54:19 am » |
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Note that adding 3 Grims, YawgWin and leaving a Wish gives you redundancy without losing much flexibility.
I generally proposed that Grim be restricted in my 'Legalise Portal' threads. I even mentioned the Grim vs. Death Wish thing.
However
I do believe that there are now so many tutors that it is very easy to overdose on tutors. I agree with Dr. Sylvan that cutting a bomb to put in a bomb doesn't give you more bombs (it might give you better bombs) and with Hi-Val that tutors that dump stuff on top of your library are often very annoying (I, for one, don't always have a Brainstorm in hand).
I thing few would doubt the fact that these tutors are good in combo. I think they will find their way into decks. Is that a bad thing? However do they increase the power of combo by an amount that warrants restriction (indeed if Dark Ritual gets restricted, Grim looks very grim indeed)? I remain firmly on the fence.
At least nobody can complain that Portal diesn't contribute anything worthwhile to Vintage!
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Eric Dupuis
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« Reply #5 on: March 17, 2005, 11:05:35 am » |
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As for my list, it is very similar to what you've posted. Pester Atoglord for his Deathlong list and make the following changeds. Consult has to go when adding Will to the main. It is replaced by Imperail Seal. 4 Grim Tutors obviously replaces Deathwish. Time Walk also gets the ax as it is replaced by Personal Tutor. His list encorporates the Rector/Therapy combo, which is amazingly effective.
One of the most interesting cards in that list is Rebuild. With all the tutors putting cards on top of the library, it can make for some entirely uncounterable wins. Cyclinging into Mind's Desire is something that can win when you are way behind.
Well I have no time, so I gtg. I'll be reading all these posts on Sunday as I'm on my way to NH for a vacation. I'll be popping the question around 7:00 tonight.
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Smmenen
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« Reply #6 on: March 17, 2005, 12:08:02 pm » |
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As the designer of Deathlong I have to say that you are massively exaggerating the impact of Grim Long.
I have known about the eventual portal inclusion into Vintage for some time and have had a Grim Long list together since I heard that Burning Wish and LED were going to be restricted (since Dec. 2003). I tuned a Grim Long list concurrently with the development of Deathlong (which I played in the Jan 2004 Waterbury and Gencon this summer revealing my tuned list).
It will not cause Ritual or Grim Tutor to get restricted unless people like you cause hysteria. Is it better than Death Wish? Obviously. But given the skill required to play Death Long (meandeath), it won't outperform most decks in the format.
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Hi-Val
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« Reply #7 on: March 17, 2005, 02:24:13 pm » |
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I was realizing this last night as I was drifting off to sleep. One of the things that ameliorates Mystical and Vampiric's card disadvantage is that you can cast them during your upkeep and draw the tutored card that turn. Personal Tutor and Imperial Seal cannot be cast then, so you're basically stuck having to draw your card next turn unless you have Brainstorm/Sphere.
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Meddling Mike
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« Reply #8 on: March 17, 2005, 06:07:45 pm » |
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If you feel that deathlong is "overloading on tutors" by the addition of the grim/personal/Imperial Seal then I think you may just be looking at this the wrong way. It's really more upgrading the existing tutors, Grim Tutor>Death Wish, Consultation and windfall have always been iffy cards in deathlong lists as well, personal tutor and imperial seal would work as fine replacements for these.
However, I think that Grimlong won't be incredibly popular because:
1) The deck is fully powered as well as these new hard to find tutors, As it stands I don't have enough power/portal tutors to make this deck 10 proxy legal and I'd assume many other unpowered/underpowered players are in the same boat.
2) Deathlong requires a high level of competency and expertise with the deck to operate properly, which many people, including myself at the moment, lack.
However, for the reasons ELD cited above, I feel like the overall power level of an optimal build of the deck has greatly increased.
Again, I say this keeping in mind that the banning of grim tutor is still a distinct possibility and other sets will certainly see print prior to the portals sets becoming legal.
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dandan
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« Reply #9 on: March 18, 2005, 03:04:19 am » |
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Note that in most matches Grim Tutor is about as good as Rhystic Tutor. I can't remember many people complaining about RT. (I fully accept that the difference between a good and bad tutor is razor thin, but I think it is worth pointing out that Grim performs roughly the same as a crap tutor in most matches) This is based on 1. Going first - your opponent won't have 2 mana. RT is better as occasionally you won't have BB available (or you have BB but would like to have B for the spell you tutor up) 2. Going second - RT is better than GT on the first turn unless your opponent has some fast mana. Even if they have some fast mana, it is not significantly inferior if they have 2 mana available and some sort of disruption which requires mana (Stifle for example). If they have 2 mana up and no disruption which requires mana you are in pretty good shape anyway but Grim Tutor is better in this example. 3. As the game goes on, Grim becomes progressively better than Rhystic although baiting 2 mana to counter Rhystic is often very similiar to baiting a counter if you intend to go off that turn.
I am in no way suggesting that Rhystic Tutor be added to DeathLong (RhysticLong sounds sooooooo bad) but I think most people would accept that Rhystic Tutor is no problem. Most people would accept that in a fast combo deck, there would be very few games where Grim is better than Rhystic so basically if Grim needs restricting it is because in those very few games where it matters if you have Grim or Rhystic, the addition of Grim makes a dramatic difference. As I have explained above, over the first 2 turns, that is basically when the opponent goes first and has no non-FOW disruption. I would be surprised if Grim really changes the odds a lot in such a situation.
Not wanting to repeat myself, but for the hard of thinking, I am not proposing Rhystic Tutor be added to DeathLong, I see that Grim Tutor is better than Rhystic Tutor in a number of situations and I do understand that improving performance by a few percentage points can make a large difference. I am just trying to show how the emperor's new clothes are not that much better than his old ones.
I also think that most combo players are well experienced in the annoyance factor of Vampiric and Mystical Tutor and so will appreciate that the even worse Imperial Seal and Personal Tutor will also be damned annoying a lot of the time.
Finally I think Meddling Mage means restriction not banning of Grim Tutor. It would be odd to ban Grim and have Demonic merely restricted.
Finally if you take Death Wish out of Deathlong you sudenly have a shedload of useless life that you can use as a resource. Spoils of the Vault gives you that card right now and doesn't kill you 17% of the time if you have already worked your way through a chunk of your deck or you are running 'slow' tutors that put the card you want on the top of your library. So if running no Death Wish makes SotV better and running Imperial Seal and Personal Tutor make SotV better and running Grim Tutor means you don't need Death Wish, doesn't that mean that you have some serious thinking to do about which tutors you use?
I don't understand why anyone would cut Consultation in a redundant deck. B for any card is a deal and better than B for a card on top of your library in most situations.
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Dante
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« Reply #10 on: March 18, 2005, 11:20:31 am » |
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I don't understand why anyone would cut Consultation in a redundant deck. B for any card is a deal and better than B for a card on top of your library in most situations.
the assumption was that you were replacing The 4 Death Wishes and 1 Burning Wish with 4 Grim Tutors and moving Yag Will main. In a deck that relies on Yag Will, you can't have it randomly RFG by the Consultation.
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« Reply #11 on: March 18, 2005, 02:09:09 pm » |
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I think Imperial Seal will definately see play in T1. It's still a less flexible Vampiric, and it still sets you up for a Turn2 win most of the time. I doubt any of the other tutors will see any play. A card I'm more interested in is the Earthquake that doesn't damage Horsemanship guys, but kills Flying dudes. It could be worth 1 or 2 slots in my DracoPlosion deck 
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Machinus
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« Reply #12 on: March 18, 2005, 04:58:39 pm » |
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I don't understand why anyone would cut Consultation in a redundant deck. B for any card is a deal and better than B for a card on top of your library in most situations.
the assumption was that you were replacing The 4 Death Wishes and 1 Burning Wish with 4 Grim Tutors and moving Yag Will main. In a deck that relies on Yag Will, you can't have it randomly RFG by the Consultation. If you have both burning wish and yawg will maindeck, is this a big problem?
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Dante
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« Reply #13 on: March 18, 2005, 06:01:43 pm » |
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I don't understand why anyone would cut Consultation in a redundant deck. B for any card is a deal and better than B for a card on top of your library in most situations.
the assumption was that you were replacing The 4 Death Wishes and 1 Burning Wish with 4 Grim Tutors and moving Yag Will main. In a deck that relies on Yag Will, you can't have it randomly RFG by the Consultation. If you have both burning wish and yawg will maindeck, is this a big problem? Well the primary use of BW was to fetch Yawg Will. Now that it's maindeck, it really becomes a question of comparing to whatever other card (tutor, etc) is next up for that slot....
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Meddling Mike
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« Reply #14 on: March 18, 2005, 06:14:35 pm » |
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Even in the particular build of deathlong I had been playing (also the list run by The Atog Lord) where removing your yawgmoths will with consultation wasn't a concern, there were still ample other cards which it hurt to have removed from the game, like Bargain/Necro/Future Sight. One one occassion I lost all 3 win conditions to my consultation. In a new version without Death Wish/Burning Wish and Grim Tutor/Personal Tutor/Imperial Seal the removal of Consultation is a foregone conclusion.
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Eric Dupuis
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« Reply #15 on: March 20, 2005, 09:52:47 pm » |
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Note that in most matches Grim Tutor is about as good as Rhystic Tutor. I miss the logic here. Grim tutor is a card that allows for quick wins, and can be a top deck that ends the game on the spot. A combo player in the late game can have no cards in hand and rip the tutor to end it. That cannot be said for Rystic Tutor. Hell, that can't even be said for Vampiric Tutor, and that clearly deserves it's restriction. Comparing Rystic Tutor to Grim Tutor is like comparing Mana Leak to Counterspell. Before I go on a rant, I want to point out that ENTOMB is restricted. If you don't think that wizards is going to ban this tutor, I urge you to think about that statement. Another point, I don't ever remember a time when a combo deck was left unchecked at the top of the meta. If control slaver wasn't a control deck it would have been neutered a while ago IMO. Wizards just hates combo that is the best deck in the field. That fact alone makes me think that they will not allow Grim Tutor to be abused as a 4 of. Perhaps Grim Tutor needs to be compared to other restricted cards to get the big picture. It is closest to Demonic Tutor, which certainly should be restricted. The additional B mana is really the issue. The 3 life is not of consequence in most match ups and circumstances. So it is clearly inferior to Demonic in every way. That's fine, as Burning Wish is inferior to Demonic, but still found its way onto the B&R list. Grim Tutor is also very similar to Burning Wish when it was in the format. It gives us multiple copies of a spell that can fetch Will. There are two main differences IMO. 1) It actually makes the Will it fetches better, as opposed to burning wish which RFG's itself 2) Unlike burning wish, it can set up for a kill by getting lotus or other main deck cards. Grim Tutor certainly has some advantages over the restricted Burning Wish. The only downside is the additional B mana IMO. While I'll be the first to say that the differance between 3 and 2 mana is a mile, I don't feel that it is enough to save this card for the B&R list. I'm going to make a hypothesis. I feel Grim Long will perform on par with a a pre-portal Burning Wish Long. I understand that this assumption may prove to be incorrect. But as I often say, there's only one way to find out. I am going to build Grim Long and a Wish Long in apprentice. The Buring Wish Long will not run any portal cards. The only illegal cards in it will be the 3 additional burning wishes. I'll play them against a live opponent. I'll post the results, likely on Thursday. I invite anyone else who has extensive experiance with combo to do the same. In the end, it really doesn't matter what we think. All that matters is the reality of what happens when the cards are played. Well, that's all I've got for now. Just though I'd check in to see how the discussion went while I was in NH. For all who are interested she said yes. Congratulations! -Jacob, abusing mod powers like mad.
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The M.E.T.H.O.D
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« Reply #16 on: March 21, 2005, 10:02:34 am » |
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I was in the process of typing something similiar to ELD before, but he hit the nail on the head. He said it for perfect truth.
On another note, congrats ELD.
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ELD
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Eric Dupuis
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« Reply #17 on: March 25, 2005, 02:35:31 am » |
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Well, I just got in from YMG providence with some news. Grim Long beats control slaver. I piloted my current build of control slaver vs Rich's Oath based Grim Long and lost 7 games in a row. I should have won one game, in which I cast a first turn ancestral, will, tinker, lotus, crypt, ruby and managed to slave him. On his turn I demoniced for LED and made him dump his hand. I died to my own mana crypt, which should have been tinkered out. This was the only winnable game for Slaver all night. There were first turn wins. There were unstoppable wins. There were games where must counter was followed by must counters until a final bomb resolved. After taking such a beating, I played Rich's Slaver with my build of Grim Long, not running oath or time walk. I proceeded to beat him 3-0 in games, taking us to about 1:30 in the a.m. It didn't matter who ran it, Grim Long was the stronger deck. Grim Long has proven in my eyes that it is strong enough to beat the formats strongest control deck when piolted by a competent player. I'm not sure where things go from here. I'm going to make a hypothesis. I feel Grim Long will perform on par with a a pre-portal Burning Wish Long. I didn't end up testing this. Once I got started playing against Grim Long, I was sucked in. The deck is certainly broken. I just kept playing against it, expecting it to crap out, or for me to out control it. Never happened. When the format's best control deck is crushed by this unrefined combo deck, what can possibly stand to stop it. I cannot see how Grim Tutor could not end up restricted with the cardpool as it is right now.
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Eastman
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« Reply #18 on: March 25, 2005, 07:41:01 am » |
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For all who are interested she said yes.
Awesome, congratulations man!@
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The Atog Lord
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« Reply #19 on: March 25, 2005, 12:22:56 pm » |
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While I have already told him so in person, let me publicly congratulate ELD. Way to go!
Now, as for this wretched deck which is GrimLong. The thing seems a true monster. I have tested Control Slaver against every deck imaginable, from the finest Type One decks to a Masques Block draft deck. And never have I seen any deck take ten games in a row from Control Slaver without losing one itself.
Eric said that one game may have been winnable for Control Slaver had he played differently. But this is no doubt mitigated by the fact that, while I have experience with Long and DeathLong, I had very little experience with GrimLong, which at times plays differently from its two predecessors. In addition, both Eric and I are much more familiar with Control Slaver than Grim Long. Add in the fact that neither of us are 100% sure we've found the optimal Grim Long list, and it’s fair to say that things were stacked against that untuned deck. It didn't matter. It ran through Control Slaver like nothing else I've seen.
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« Reply #20 on: March 25, 2005, 12:28:07 pm » |
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When the format's best control deck is crushed by this unrefined combo deck, what can possibly stand to stop it. I cannot see how Grim Tutor could not end up restricted with the cardpool as it is right now. That's one possibly conclusion. Another could be that you weren't using the format's best Control deck. Yet another could be that it won't be Control that keeps GrimLong in check. I recommend a more comprehensive analysis before reaching the conclusion that you have. On a related note: were you having "fun" when you lost to GrimLong? If so, then there really is no cause for concern!   
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Vegeta2711
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« Reply #21 on: March 25, 2005, 03:08:45 pm » |
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Another could be that you weren't using the format's best Control deck. Though I see the point about a deck other than control being able to keep it in check, since combo hate rules, this piece boggles me a little. Seriously, which control deck is better than CS? Or did you just mean a different control deck would've done better against it? That I can get behind. Though feel free to make me laugh by saying Tog. 
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« Reply #22 on: March 25, 2005, 07:07:32 pm » |
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Seriously, which control deck is better than CS? Or did you just mean a different control deck would've done better against it? That I can get behind. There are several reasons for my post, but I'll try to be specific to your question: ...If you'll allow me to answer your question with a question... In ELD's analysis/conclusion, which "format" (environment) do you think he's referring to?
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Matt
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« Reply #23 on: March 25, 2005, 07:38:23 pm » |
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Are you trying to leak that Portal is going to bring a new control deck?
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« Reply #24 on: March 25, 2005, 08:02:55 pm » |
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Are you trying to leak that Portal is going to bring a new control deck? From this statement, I assume you are you unaware of the secretly developed, recently rumored, and greatly feared " Meandeck horsie control." In all seriousnes though, Grim Tutor is a strong card that certainly may be restriction worthy. The metagame though will either adapt in a healthy way(via new archetypes, new cards from upcoming sets, or old answers) or adapt in a way that still causes format unbalance, and the card will be restricted. After former bombs running rampant in the environment for up to a few months at a time, the format adapting, and the dci behaving in the manner that they have, I don't fear that Grim Tutor will cause the death of Type 1, or even an unplayable format for a few months.
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Vegeta2711
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« Reply #25 on: March 25, 2005, 08:09:50 pm » |
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ELD's analysis is based off current day CS and enviroment it looks like. It also seems to have very little testing against other types of decks. Hence why I'm not going 'omg omg omg THE SKY IS BLUE, WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE'. CS isn't exactly the greatest combo stomping deck ever (Loses to Dragon, doesn't have a good game against DeathLong, etc.) so that's why I asked for the clarifcation of your point. Now if continued testing shows that GrimLong constantly out performs every deck, then we may have an issue.
I'd also assume your referencing the fact that there are another couple of sets plus Portal to be released into mainstream Vintage before GrimLong would actually be legal. Hence there could be another shift towards another (Or set of) control decks or lock-esque decks to shut it down.
I think that's partially what you were getting at anyways that or you just wanted to brag about horsie control 5 months early.
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jpmeyer
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« Reply #26 on: March 29, 2005, 07:54:45 pm » |
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Oops, didn't notice that this was still locked after it got cleaned out. Reopened![/b]
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Team Meandeck: "As much as I am a clueless, credit-stealing, cheating homo I do think we would do well to consider the current stage of the Vintage community." -Smmenen
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Toad
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« Reply #27 on: March 30, 2005, 10:51:16 am » |
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Seriously, which control deck is better than CS? If the metagame is going to shift towards heavy Combo, then Drain Slaver will not be the best control deck in Type One (That is, assuming It's still the best one). Drain Slaver has always had some weaknesses against Combo. I've been playtesting a bit against Grim Long with two Gifts Ungiven based Control-Combo decks, Team CAB's original Charbelcher deck and my own Salvagers deck. Both these decks have a decent matchup against GrimLong, for several reasons. The first one is obviously the maindeck Duresses. Both these had 4 maindeck Duress along with the standard 4 Force of Will and 4 Mana Drain, and they were really solid for preventing GrimLong from casting bombs after bombs. Phyrexian Furnace was also surprisingly good in order to prevent an extremely deadly Yawgmoth's Will. Post sideboard, GrimLong was suffering even more from Combo hate, and during these games Grim Tutor was often a liability. With Death Wish, you have the ability to tutor for many useful stuff, ranging from Primitive Justice to Echoing Truth or Chain of Vapor. Grim Tutor is far less versatile unless you clog your deck with lots of sideboard cards, but then you are lowering your goldfish rate a lot. There was many situations were I wanted the Grim Tutor I had in hand to be a Death Wish, for versatility. I have also had some games with a stupid Red/Green Workshop based hate deck, with 4 Root Maze, 4 Sphere of Resistance, 4 Chalice of the Void and 4 Pyrostatic Pillars maindeck. Grim Tutor has lost me plenty games Death Wish would have won me there. Having billions of Yawgmoth's Wills in the deck is quite useless when you can't win because of stupid permanents you can't get rid of. Grim Tutor is obviously a really strong card, but the fact that GrimLong consistently beats Drain Slaver does not make me fear of an horrible Combo winter if no restriction ensues.
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Anusien
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« Reply #28 on: April 09, 2005, 04:50:15 pm » |
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[Regarding "More About March 1st":]
Do you have any plans of including the [Portal] tutors, particularly Imperial Seal, in future Magic expansions? I feel that Wizards should do this because these cards are hard to find (they're non-existent here in the Philippines) and their prices are so high, almost rivaling those of the Power 9 cards. I think this will help many Magic players." –zoi
An interesting solution to a strange problem, zoi. While we'd never disclose plans to reprint any particular card or group of cards -— so please read nothing into this answer —- anything is fair game that isn't on the Reserved List, including cards from all three Portal sets. Yeah, I think we all saw that coming. Which control deck is going to give GrimLong or whatever comes trouble? In the original Long.dec analysis, it was Tog because of the maindeck Duress, the Force of Will, Mana Drain and a potentially fast clock. CS can easily be adapted to win that matchup at the risk of doing worse against control. Any Mindslaver activation is practically game, and draining practically any of combo's threats will give you enough mana. The trick is surviving that long especially when you can't go turn 1 Welder, turn 2 EOT Intution/Thirst. Toad: I'd be interested to know what sort of threats you were wishing for to stop. When I was goldfishing/playtesting DeathLong (not as extensively as you, I imagine) I rarely ever wished for anything. My most common wish target was Regrowth as the good ole "Oh shit" button (and I'd suggest either Regrowth going into the maindeck if at all possible). I can see where the R/G hate deck would give you problems, but I'm surprised you had such trouble racing it. They can only legitimately get down max 2 cards before you win, and I'd hope one of those get Duressed. I can see you also randomly winning games with Grim you'd normally lose (Lava Dart anyone?)
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Magic Level 3 Judge Southern USA Regional Coordinator The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule.
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ELD
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Eric Dupuis
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« Reply #29 on: April 10, 2005, 02:39:01 pm » |
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I can definitely see Grim Tutor not being able to find the random situational cards that deathwish finds. Hull Breach is not going into my maindeck anytime soon. Vs random permanent based hate, Chain of Vapor is the card that gives you an out. It is also a very strong card for building storm and generating mana. My build has both Chain and Rebuild. If those two combined can't dig me out of a terrible situation, then I lose that game. Vs hate decks, speed tends to be my best friend. Winning before pillar hitting is often possible, though sometimes it involves risk of fizzling. I find that trusting the deck to deliver is the way to go. Sure, you occasionally whiff on a tinker for jar. It is much better than waiting around for a permanent to hit play that will likely cost you the game.
One issue I have been thinking about is the difficulty of play with combo decks. Just for kicks, here's a few questions to the community. If Grim Long was unstoppable, but only in the hands of a exceptionally skilled/gifted player, would it be a problem? Now how about if it is a rarely played but always successful IF 2 in a field of 200, but both decks make top 8? Is the issue with overly powerful decks the success in tournaments, or the number of said decks in the field?
On a side note, I'm thrilled with the spell check function. I've never felt so alive.
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« Last Edit: April 10, 2005, 07:47:52 pm by ELD »
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