[Article] Psychatog 2005

[Smmenen]

With all due respect Steve, I feel as though your analysis of the Control Slaver v. Psychatog matchup indicates a gross misunderstanding of the matchup.

Blah blah blah

I think people are probably not reading/skimming what I actually wrote in the article.  

At origins I played Rich Shay before the midnight tournament and pwned him 2-1 using the strategy I set out in the article.  The only game he won was the game example I give in the article where Tog loses: the turn one Duress, turn two Thirst, etc where he stays ahead.  It lined up entirely with all of my testing.  My assessment was fairly comprehensive.    I have always contended that Tog had a favorable matchup so long as you had the REBs in the board 1-2 is not sufficient.  Also, The Tog player has to be good.  Most of the people Rich was testing agaisnt were tog straw men according to what he told me.

If you have questions, ask them pointedly here and I will answer.

[jpmeyer]

One very important thing to consider with Tog's Duresses in this matchup is that Slaver can't just randomly cast Brainstorm or Thirst and get the maximum use out of it.  Forcing them to hide cards rather than sculpt their hand or plucking out a Thirst (or getting them to cast Thirst and then discard two cards) that they couldn't cast quite yet can provide a strong opening.

[Meddling Mike]

Questions I have, written in a pointed fashion:

1)

I think people are probably not reading/skimming what I actually wrote in the article.

I assure you I read your matchup analysis of control slaver in it's entirety before making my initial post in this thread, were you referring to me with this comment? If so what gave you this impression? Also regarding the topic of skimming and not reading, I think it's also worth pointing out that I was not the one who took the top line of somebody's lengthy post and quoted the rest of the reply as "blah blah blah" after which I requested to have all the questions asked to me again in points.

2) Provided a control slaver player isn't missing land drops, typically they will always have mana available to Thirst for Knowledge should you attempt to cunning wish early for a Red Elemental Blast, so in what situation exactly are you advocating making such a play?

3) Why did you neglect to mention an early tinker when listing off your scary plays. Did you simply feel that this "went without saying" as Hi-Val suggested, because if so I think you're neglecting to mention that Control Slaver has a number of "must counter" spells outside TFK that the Hulk player needs to be ready to counter.

4) Is your analysis on this matchup based on a single casual game against Rich at Origins, or do you have other playtesting results to reinforce your confidence in this matchup?

5) Why do you feel you and Mr. Shay disagree so strongly on the nature of this matchup. His primer and tournament results as well as my own tournament results still show Hulk to be an extremely favorable matchup.

6) Do you agree that the control slaver player can reach 6-7 mana more easily than you made it seem in your article via welder tricks/mana drain?

7)Do you disregard drawing up to 8 through the Control Slaver's natural draws as a means of getting a mindslaver into the graveyard relatively early while circumventing your counters and avoid "flinching" as Rico put it?

8) Why do you push the importance of card advantage in this matchup yet suggest siding out two very potent draw spells for game 2?

9) How is your new list significantly different from the one put forth by your teammate JP Meyer this time last year? Outside of some slightly different MD choices and a few new cards in the sideboard I don't see any significant difference.

[Smmenen]

Questions I have, written in a pointed fashion:

1. etc

Most of your questions have already been answered so repeating them here is just pointless.  Rich and I have already discussed this at length as I have said.  Now you are getting me to repeat myself again.  

Tinker is the ridiculously broken threat against Tog you imploy unless you can activate the slaver RIGHT NOW.  Otherwise there is too much opportunity to untap and go: 1) Combo out (which consists of Tog + BErserk, Yawg WIll, AK 3+4, Walk -> Will, win)  OR 2) Wish for a way to kill the slaver.  I would LOVE to see Control Slaver do a Tinker on turn 3-4 with double counterback up only to have me get Rack and Ruin or Mutation resolve the next turn.  

Rich played against lots of really bad tog players who got slaved and lost bad.  

The rest of your questions have already been answered elsewhere.  I'm almost insulted at the notion that my understanding of the match is based upon a speculative few games.  I think I've actually mastered the match.  I put in a great amount of detail in the article.  It should be perfectly clear from the article that I have done more than a few games.  

I'm not going to argue with you about your prattling on about the control slaver matchup becuase you obviously have no idea how the Tog deck plays outwhatsoever.  Most of your problems stem from an underappreciation of how well Tog is able to play the Control Role if designed and piloted well.  Tog MUST be the control player and it has all the tools to do that better.  It is a matter or role assignment and moreover, a realization that the Tog deck is fast and flexible enough that iit can actually succeed in that capacity.  But it takes perfect play.

Therefore, I'll reserve the rest of my responses to actual questions about the Tog players plan/sb strategy.

[Moxlotus]

I"m actually curious on to what you would do if facing a deck like Lam Phan's Birdshit.  That deck could take off in popularity soon with 3sphere getting the axe and it being within 5 proxy.

[Meddling Mike]

Most of your questions have already been answered so repeating them here is just pointless. Rich and I have already discussed this at length as I have said. Now you are getting me to repeat myself again.

Ok, so what does a discussion with Rich about some topic which you didn't mention have to do with my questions, which I obviously felt have not been answered adequately or at all or I would not have posed them to you.

The rest of your questions have already been answered elsewhere. I'm almost insulted at the notion that my understanding of the match is based upon a speculative few games. I think I've actually mastered the match. I put in a great amount of detail in the article. It should be perfectly clear from the article that I have done more than a few games.

This seemed to be the only match which you saw fit to mention, and was the premise of my first post on this thread, I feel you have a gross misunderstanding of this matchup.

Rich played against lots of really bad tog players who got slaved and lost bad.

Can I simply say that your impressions of this matchup came due to you playing against some terrible CS players as you have said of Rich's feelings on this matchup? Did I also play against lots of really bad tog players?

I would LOVE to see Control Slaver do a Tinker on turn 3-4 with double counterback up only to have me get Rack and Ruin or Mutation resolve the next turn.

Well, see, the thing about tinker is that it presumes the presence of moxen, so typically it happens prior to turn 3 or 4 in many cases. After which you get to move to your turn, and you'll need 1)To have the cunning wish 2) Be able to cast the 3cc Rack and Ruin or 2cc artifact mutation all on your turn 3 or 4, if you can't do this all at once then I will once again be able to untap and activate my slaver or at the very least get my mana drains back online.

Most of your problems stem from an underappreciation of how well Tog is able to play the Control Role if designed and piloted well.

On the contrary I understand Tog's ability and superiority in the control role perfectly, but I think what you neglect to realize is Control Slaver's ability to work around tog's counters, make a mindslaver occur and then destroy the tog players board position to a point where recovery is impossible.

[Azhrei]

I've got to go with Smemmen on this-- when we did all of our testing against Slaver, the build that was supposed to beat Hulk something like 9 in 10 lost more like 6 in 8. It's really not a tough matchup if you know what lines of attack to make.

[Methuselahn]

I'm not going to argue with you about your prattling on about the control slaver matchup becuase you obviously have no idea how the Tog deck plays out whatsoever.  Most of your problems stem from an underappreciation of how well Tog is able to play the Control Role if designed and piloted well.  Tog MUST be the control player and it has all the tools to do that better.  It is a matter or role assignment and moreover, a realization that the Tog deck is fast and flexible enough that it can actually succeed in that capacity.  But it takes perfect play.

Therefore, I'll reserve the rest of my responses to actual questions about the Tog players plan/sb strategy.

Well, I'm still waiting for the response to Mind Twist that rvs posted.

Also, I think it is funny that someone can predict which deck should win a match based on 'perfect play' and theory with no actual tournament data.   Making pre-emptive excuses like "bad straw-man Tog player" is interesting, since, all manner of people having been playing Tog since it won Gencon and has been losing regularly to Control Slaver ever since.  At least, that's what I'm seeing.   Many would think that the great Smmenen isn't the only one who knows how to pilot this deck properly, I don't get it.

On writing an article about Tog and how you have to pilot it perfectly:
I didn't read this Premium stuff, but it seems as though you would need to write a primer on control based decks, and how to play the mirror, which really wouldn't be all that effective, since, most people need the actual experience as a learning tool.  That is just my opinion though.

It is also my opinion that alot of those Tog players picked up Control Slaver because it was just better vs the field, now that Trinisphere is restricted, why is Tog the better choice?   Sorry if you answered these questions in your premium article, but you brought the discussion here.

Another thing to remember about pulling stuff from a year ago is that Slaver was relatively new then, and people had been playing against Hulk for the better part of the season. Having the information advantage over the opponent is a big benefit. At that time, we may not have known how to beat Slaver as well as we did Hulk. It's better to look at the decks squared off now.

I contest that it is the pilot's responsibility to play something that is not widely known if information and surprise are a factor.

Wait, people are beating Slaver?

[WildWillieWonderboy]

As far as "actual tournament data," I don't know that anyone can say with impugnity that tog and CS ever existed in the same environment. There were heavily metagamed togs that were able to top8 here and there, but Tog's star was on the decline when Crucible hit and THEN CS became refined into what it is today. Therefore, the coming events (before anyone asks, the results aren't up yet) will probably be the data that will prove or disprove many of the arguments here.

[Freelancer]

IMHO to stop this stupid discussion (between smmenen and meddling mage -others-) is to fight it off, smmenen on one side (with Tog obv.) and meddling mage on the other (with control slaver)...
This way you have 2 competent (presumably) players fighting it off, than we'll see who has the upper hand in this particular matchup...
This discussion with two set opinions (smmenen do you even listen to other people!?) is not going anywhere like this...


I have not read the article (no I don't have premium) but do you have any particular strategy against fish? (UR, UW or otherwise)
They still seem to have a pretty good matchup against you...(I only have experience from the side off fish against 'bad' tog opponents so don't bash me into the ground )

[Revvik]

To quote the article:

If you win, it will be through a nailbiter

Difficult, but winnable, and mistakes aren't easily forgiven.  Beyond that, I'm not sure how much else I'm allowed to say    although Smmenen's favorite card in the world is Old Man of the Sea.

Meddling Mage posts so loudly that nobody can get a post in edgewise

[Toad]

I've been talking a lot about the Tog vs. Control Slaver with French and Italian players who have intensively tested the matchup. All reported that Control Slaver was a good matchup for the Italian build of Tog, the one with maindeck Engineered Explosives and Lava Darts. Shay's matchup analysis from last year is really outdated. A year ago, Tog was the deck to beat and Tog has to use all kind of sideboard and maindeck cards to focus on winning the mirror match. Now Tog can use all these cards to beat Slaver, because Slaver is probably the #1 Control deck. Things have changed a lot. And Tog with maindeck cheap removal, Duress and Lava Dart + 4 Red Elemental Blast and Gorilla Shaman sideboard has a fine matchup against Control Slaver.

[Meddling Mike]

Things have changed a lot. And Tog with maindeck cheap removal, Duress and Lava Dart + 4 Red Elemental Blast and Gorilla Shaman sideboard has a fine matchup against Control Slaver.

I thought I made a point to show how things really haven't changed alot from one year ago. Main deck this list is exactly three cards different from the list JP played one year ago outside of the mana base. Engineered explosives/cunning wish is the only removal I see here, neither of which I would designate as "cheap". There's no lava dart in the board here, just firestorm. There's no gorilla shaman in sideboard here, just rack and ruin and artifact mutation. He does run duress, but only two. If that's your version of a well metagamed Psychatog deck that has a fine matchup with slaver, the deck posted by Smmenen in the opening post in this thread is not it.

As far as "actual tournament data," I don't know that anyone can say with impugnity that tog and CS ever existed in the same environment. There were heavily metagamed togs that were able to top8 here and there, but Tog's star was on the decline when Crucible hit and THEN CS became refined into what it is today. Therefore, the coming events (before anyone asks, the results aren't up yet) will probably be the data that will prove or disprove many of the arguments here.

For Rich and those who picked up on the power of control slaver relatively quickly, we caught Hulk just coming off the apex of it's popularity in tournament play a little over a year ago. I think it's important to note that I have never ran a Control Slaver deck that runs crucible of worlds. I also think that Tog is such a small player in the metagame right now, in my opinion due to the popularity of control slaver, that new tournament data will neither prove nor disprove any arguments here.

[Smmenen]

On the contrary I understand Tog's ability and superiority in the control role perfectly, but I think what you neglect to realize is Control Slaver's ability to work around tog's counters, make a mindslaver occur and then destroy the tog players board position to a point where recovery is impossible.

Rich has said repeatedly that the proper role is Combo in the Tog match, NOT control.  

What you say is mere fantasy.

[Rico Suave]

Activating Mindslaver is the combo.

[Smmenen]

Thanks for that insight.  I had no idea before you just told me.

[Jacob Orlove]

Stop being so childish, all of you. This is ridiculous.

[Meddling Mike]

Rich has said repeatedly that the proper role is Combo in the Tog match, NOT control.

What you say is mere fantasy.

Perhaps you misread/misunderstood what I wrote, but I am in no way disagreeing that control is the proper role for Psychatog to adopt in this matchup, nor have I ever. As Rico succinctly pointed out, my gameplan as the "combo" player is to make a mindslaver activation occur as quickly as possible, which I feel the slaver player can typically bring about and thus make the match favorable for the CS player.

Somebody also suggested having some playtest games between you and myself in order to get a more objective view of this matchup. If you'd care to do so I'd be more than willing to play some games with you on MWS. Please PM me if you're interested and we can arrange a mutually convenient time.

[Smmenen]

Rich has said repeatedly that the proper role is Combo in the Tog match, NOT control.

What you say is mere fantasy.

Perhaps you misread/misunderstood what I wrote, but I am in no way disagreeing that control is the proper role for Psychatog to adopt in this matchup, nor have I ever. As Rico succinctly pointed out, my gameplan as the "combo" player is to make a mindslaver activation occur as quickly as possible, which I feel the slaver player can typically bring about and thus make the match favorable for the CS player.

Somebody also suggested having some playtest games between you and myself in order to get a more objective view of this matchup. If you'd care to do so I'd be more than willing to play some games with you on MWS. Please PM me if you're interested and we can arrange a mutually convenient time.

I will play you.  

But you should go back and now read what i wrote in the article.  There is only so many variants on how the opening game can actuallly play out and we can map them how and see which deck wins under which circumstances.  I mapped out the three or four primary ways that I found the match mostly went.  I showed which games Slaver wins and which games it loses.

[Elric]

Why would you play Tog decklist over the slaver “beat the mirror” decklist you had in your control slaver article a few weeks ago?

The similarities: 48
23 mana sources (not listed specifically in slaver article)
3 Intuition
4 Accumulated Knowledge
3 Deep Analysis
4 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
1 Yawg Will

The differences:
Tog:
2 Duress
1 Mind Twist
1 Demonic Tutor
3 Psychatog
3 Cunning Wish
1 Engineered Explosives
1 mana source

Slaver:
4 Goblin Welder
3 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Tinker
1 Slaver
1 Trisk
1 Platinum Angel
1 Pentavus

Did the restriction of Trinisphere single-handedly make the 12 cards in Tog better than the 12 cards in Slaver?  What justification is there for this 12 card switch?  Otherwise, aren’t Goblin Welders just generally better than Psychatogs because they abuse the moxen so well?

[Smmenen]

I answer this question in my article.  Again, read before you write.  The short answer is that Wish and Deep Anal were better than Thirst and expensive artifacts.

[Hi-Val]

Tog, as a creature, is a lot harder to hate and is somewhat more synergistic with the deck's operation (welder: get welder in play, get an artifact, get something in the yard, weld into it vs. tog: draw cards). Perhaps "simple" is another descriptive word. Welder and Tog are hated by many of the same cards-- STP, Snuff Out, etc. Tog is further hit by REB and Welder is hit by BEB and Lava Dart, an insane card against it. Both are hurt a lot by graveyard hate, but most of the time Welder is hurt more. Hulk just needs cards in the yard, not specific ones.

The resiliency of Hulk and its effortless abuse of Mana Drain are why I would play it today. Additionally, I would run it for access to Artifact Mutation off the sideboard and a better game vs. Aggro.

[Meddling Mike]

I'm certainly in favor of taking notes during the match for later analysis.

How many games would you like to play? How many pre/post board?

Also, in the interest of maintaining the integrity of our testing can we agree to alternate who goes first?

[Smmenen]

I pmed you about it.  At least 50 games to have a large enough sample size.  Alternate going first.  20 preboard.  30 post.  Then I'll write an article on it .  We'll choose 2 or 3 nights after 8pm.  We can find two or three nights in the next month I am certain.  

If you agree to those terms we are good.

[Meddling Mike]

That sounds fine Steve, my classes doen't resume until Wednesday so 50 games shouldn't be an issue. I've taken Rich's latest non intuition list, I'll assume you'll be playing the Tog list posted in the opening post of this thread? I've sent you an IM but your away message is up at the moment, please feel free to contact me at your leisure to begin.

[Hyperion]

Guys, arrange this through private messages please. Keep discussion on this thread relevant to THIS article, not the next one.

[Elric]

I answer this question in my article.  Again, read before you write.  The short answer is that Wish and Deep Anal were better than Thirst and expensive artifacts.

Actually, your slaver list has 3 Deep Analysis.  So it really comes down to Wish.  Your article seems to confuse this point as well, saying that Deep Analysis is stronger than it appears and this is a point in Tog's favor.  Even if this is true, it is only an argument against Intuition Slaver decks without Deep Analysis (like the one you considered over the summer).  With it, Slaver has Tog's entire draw engine and then some.

You were arguing for the restriction of Welder last month and predicted that Welder decks would take up an average of more than 5 spots in a good tournament's top 8.  Then in a single month, you changed your mind and decided that apparently Welder wasn't that good because you could always counter Thirsts?  You also mention Lava Dart as an “insane” card against Welder, a restriction worthy card, but you don’t even run it in Tog.

[Hi-Val]

Earlier in the thread, Steve asked another Hulk player whether they ran Firestorm or Lava Dart on the board. I think at this time, Steve would probably be running Dart, but I can't put words into his mouth.

People need to remember that this is all metagamed stuff too. The Hulk list is there for a general metagame; if you expect more slaver, nobody's stopping you from running more Darts on your board. If you expect a lot of workshops, cut a Tog for an Artifact Mutation maindeck or something. No decklist is set in stone.

[Smmenen]

I think that Firestorm is replacable with Lava Dart in the board.  But I'm not 100% which is better.

[Ultima]

The question that I have here is simple.  I'll begin by saying though that I have read your article, Steve, and the posts on this thread.  I liked this article quite a bit but there are a few things I have questions about.

The main question I have about this is, based on what you have written (both in this article and others) and what you and everybody else here has said, the question presents itself, why play Tog over Slaver?

The reason for this being that it has been stated that multiple times that Tog needs perfect play and alot of testing against Slaver in order to make this match up in Tog's favor.  Therefore, if we took 2 average players together, and they played it out, this indicates that slaver has the natural advantage.  Also, similarly as put forth in the article differentiating between control slaver and goth slaver, it seems that Slaver is the more objectively powerful deck because Tog has to trade up to beat Slaver while Slaver doesn't really trade anything (and if it did, it would be down).  

So it begs the question, if Tog has to trade up to beat slaver and requires perfect play, why should I play Tog over Slaver going 8 rounds?

-John