[Article] Psychatog 2005

[onelovemachine]

what you and everybody else here has said, the question presents itself, why play Tog over Slaver?

I think the reason to play tog is the fact that it is the dark horse of the environment.  Do you want to play the best deck or the deck that happens to beat the best deck?  Menendian and team play such decks: those that aren't well prepared for or underestimated and overlooked.  Hence why, to answer your question for him (just speculation), he won't be playing tog over slaver the next time you see him.  He probably won't be playing either.  Those decks will be expected.

[Vegeta2711]

I think the reason to play tog is the fact that it is the dark horse of the environment.

he won't be playing tog over slaver the next time you see him. He probably won't be playing either. Those decks will be expected.

Slight contradiction there anyone?

[A Black Lotus Buddy]

A teammate of mine attempted to run this deck and found it both slow and vulnerable.  He said that it lost to combo and aggro and that it died to spot removal.  How does this deck defend against the above mentioned items?

[onelovemachine]

I haven't had time to respond for some time but here goes...

Ok, so your goal is to get it so that I only have a mindslaver in hand, but at the same time you don't acknowledge the possibility that a duress could hit a mindslaver in hand?

My goal is, like in all control mirrors, to gain card advantage by winning the draw war.  Duress allows me to knock out your intuition and thirst early.  This may cause expensive artifacts to remain stagnant in your hand.  If you have one card in hand and I have a fistfull and the option to duress, I have probably already duressed this game, hence I will know that Mindslaver is still waiting there to be hardcast.  Why would I duress?  Intelligent players will use duress effectively.  

Did you just completely miss what I said? The reason this may come up would be because I had hidden things like TFK or various broken spells with a brainstorm, leaving me with a hand like the one described. This is an unlikely situation, but my point was that Control Slaver has means of protecting it's most powerful spells from duress and on rare occasion can actually turn the duress into something beneficial.

My point should be beyond obvious.  It's not that hiding cards with brainstorm in response to duress is a bad play.  Everyone knows it's an excellent play.  My point is in relation to your example.  If you hide the only two good cards in your hand leaving it full of junk I don't care about and a mindslaver, then I will probably be able to handle the cards you draw off the top one at a time and the mindslaver will be a non issue.  My point is that if your hand is bad enough that when you put two cards back there is nothing in it of consequence, you are losing the game.

You know, it's kinda funny, I was under the impression that lava dart has been type I legal since July 1, 2002.

Wow! No shit.  Really? Unbelievable..... How many sideboards packed 3 lava darts one year ago?  It was an innovation taking place in late 2004 and was only used to deal with welders.  Here, I'll rephrase:  "One year ago lava dart didn't exists ( as sideboard tech for goblin welder )."  I hope we're on the same page now.  Your sarcasm says to me you assume that I (and everyone else in this forum) don't know what the fuck we are talking about.  Pretty arrogant if you ask me.

You know, it's also kinda funny, I thought I spent a large portion of my initial post talking about how Control Slaver, not Goth Slaver and it's various Intuition/AK packing builds, had actually evolved to include cards which would normally be sideboarded in against Tog (Like FoF) in the MD, and cards that had been traditionally weak in this matchup (Cunning Wish, Fire Ice, Memory Jar, Mana vault) were now not typical to slaver builds.

I guess I have to make my points very simplistic so no one gets the point mixed up with the chaff and examples.  Rephrased I said, "One year ago slaver could beat tog pretty easily.  Today a properly metagamed tog can create a positive matchup against slaver archetypes."  

Thanks for your understanding.

[Meddling Mike]

Why would I duress? Intelligent players will use duress effectively.

Ok, but duress isn't always just a turn 1 play, what if you draw it in the mid game somewhere, I've still got a hand of about 3-4  cards but I've expended much of my gas, and presuming your strategy has worked up till now I may or may not have 1-2 random fat artifacts in hand, you have some draw spell you'd like to resolve in hand, you're telling me you're not going to use that duress?

I have probably already duressed this game, hence I will know that Mindslaver is still waiting there to be hardcast.

Regardless of whatever specific lists you're running, the list in question only runs 2 duress, if you're running this deck I think that's a bit of a big assumption.

I also think you're confusing a hand full of creature and land cards (A duress proof hand) with one that has nothing of consequence. This is not necessarily the case, especially coupled with whatever I may have hidden with brainstorm.

I hope we're on the same page now. Your sarcasm says to me you assume that I (and everyone else in this forum) don't know what the fuck we are talking about. Pretty arrogant if you ask me.

What does the manner in which I address your poorly phrased comments have anything to do with my thoughts on the competency of the readers of this forum?  I believe you also missed the underlying point I was trying to make here. My point is this, there were ample answers for Goblin Welder available as well as all the hate Steve has seen fit to add into this deck, such as fire/ice, firestorm, ground seal and if we were all as astute at finding tech as Rich Shay lava dart. This deck has always had the capability to hate out slaver to the extent which this list does and it wasn't good enough a little under a year ago.

"One year ago slaver could beat tog pretty easily. Today a properly metagamed tog can create a positive matchup against slaver archetypes."

If you had read my response to Toad, you would have seen my comments that I have my doubts about even a properly metagamed tog having success vs. Slaver, but w/o any testing on my part I'll reserve comment. I also think that this particular decklist in question, the one posted by Steve that is the topic of this thread, is not properly metagamed to beat control slaver.

[onelovemachine]

If you had read my response to Toad, you would have seen my comments that I have my doubts about even a properly metagamed tog having success vs. Slaver, but w/o any testing on my part I'll reserve comment

Thanks.  Testing may tell you something you didn't know.  My testing has told me much about the matchup since I believe it to be THE matchup in tog's path to victory.  

I also think that this particular decklist in question, the one posted by Steve that is the topic of this thread, is not properly metagamed to beat control slaver.

No arguments here.  I think it was ill conceived in that its gameplan vs slaver doesn't include lava dart and four duress.  The draw engine is pretty much what I would play but apart from that different lists.

[exit music]

So it begs the question, if Tog has to trade up to beat slaver and requires perfect play, why should I play Tog over Slaver going 8 rounds?

Well...

Tog, as a creature, is a lot harder to hate and is somewhat more synergistic with the deck's operation (welder: get welder in play, get an artifact, get something in the yard, weld into it vs. tog: draw cards). Perhaps "simple" is another descriptive word. Welder and Tog are hated by many of the same cards-- STP, Snuff Out, etc. Tog is further hit by REB and Welder is hit by BEB and Lava Dart, an insane card against it. Both are hurt a lot by graveyard hate, but most of the time Welder is hurt more. Hulk just needs cards in the yard, not specific ones.

The resiliency of Hulk and its effortless abuse of Mana Drain are why I would play it today. Additionally, I would run it for access to Artifact Mutation off the sideboard and a better game vs. Aggro.

Edit: Also, Tog has an advantage because, as this thread proves, people will underestimate it. I can't until the times where I'm paired against Slaver because they, as soon as Tog is identified, write the match off as easy; however, by that point, I've probably already got my weight on the Slaver player, making it nearly impossible for them to catch up.

@ Meddling Mage:
Have you and Steve played the test games yet? Has your opinion of the match changed?

[JuJu]

Okay, So like is the flame war over yet?

Back to topic; Whoever said Tog does poorly against combo and aggro are wrong. The only combo that this deck does poorly against is a good player with meandeath or that sort. Belcher is insanely easy, TPS isn't so hard, you run way more counters then him and usually his new hands give you good ones too heh. I haven't tested CS at all lately but I'm guessing it depends on the outcome of the first major draw spell and the first major counter war -- Wow, I just like totally said that in a line when no one else could admit it! --. Oath Seems pretty horrible of a match. Also, Ninja Sword is the most annoying deck to face.. If they resolve Wretch, they win. Ninja of the deep is just awesome because they can outdraw you. Vial just makes it better. It's like, the new Zoo.

[A Black Lotus Buddy]

@ JuJu
I didn't say that the deck was bad against combo.  I don't know the deck well enough to make that a statement.

@ the people who like this deck
 I want to know how the deck deals with combo and aggro (and spot removal and Oath). 

[Hi-Val]

Combo: It has 2 Duress 4 Drain 4 FOW and a Mind Twist. Usually that's enough to stall the game until Hulk can gain control of it, but Deathlong presents problems anyway. After board, you'll have Lab.

Aggro: Psychatog trumps all creatures that Aggro plays. Against Fish, you get out a couple basic Islands and stabilize from there. Against other Aggro, you get Tog ASAP or Cunning Wish for Firestorm or Lava Dart.

Against spot removal, you hope to have a counter or you hold Tog or Yawgmoth's Will it back. Against Oath, you look for Explosives or Cunning Wish for Naturalize or Unsummon if you need to. Oath can be a tricky matchup though. Luckily, there's not a lot of hate that hits a Psychatog these days!

[Cross]

Also EE is good in the aggro matchup.

Has anyone else found the Fact or Fiction in the sideboard completely useless? I never want to waste a wish on it, and I never seem to have the resources to cast it when I want to. Personally I've replaced it with more utility in the board and I've found that to be more useful.

On similar subjects, how are people sideboarding for oath. I've heard that oath is not a great matchup, even with EE's. Some people have claimed that oath is the new deck to beat, and with such a prevelance how much of your board are you dedicating to oath?

[Echoing Truth]

Has anyone else found the Fact or Fiction in the sideboard completely useless? I never want to waste a wish on it, and I never seem to have the resources to cast it when I want to. Personally I've replaced it with more utility in the board and I've found that to be more useful.

Personally, I would never cut FoF from the board.  It is a solid way to abuse excess Drain mana.  If you're having problems with it though, I might switch to Gush or Skeletal Scrying as a draw spell in its place.  I feel that Tog needs a draw spell in the board that it can wish for, and FoF is usually the card of choice for that slot.

[onelovemachine]

Has anyone else found the Fact or Fiction in the sideboard completely useless? I never want to waste a wish on it, and I never seem to have the resources to cast it when I want to. Personally I've replaced it with more utility in the board and I've found that to be more useful.

No.  Fact is THE wish target in the board.  My first wish is almost always spent on fof.  Tog doesn't want utility it wants cards in hand and a psychatog. 

[JuJu]

No.  Fact is THE wish target in the board.  My first wish is almost always spent on fof.  Tog doesn't want utility it wants cards in hand and a psychatog. 

I think this is something I have to discuss, very often when playing Tog, I look to brainstorm away my wishes, needing land or card drawing in my hand at the time. Very rarely will I want a wish in my hand. I do like having a wish available in my hand but I think it's like Yawg will and should be played at the right moment. Artifact decks(Stax etc) usually have me keeping the wish in hand so I can put them on a clock with artifact mutation. Does anyone else normally play their wishes this way?

[Draven]

I have a question using our current build on this thread. Tog has alot of stron cards main deck. The problem comes from boarding, what do you take out for games two and three? Example: You have 3 REB, what could you possibly take out that isn't as good or better than the REB? Let's go down the line:

Control Slaver

Oath

Storm

Thanks...

Don't bump a three week old thread. Verbal warning.
-Jacob