[Discussion] Stax now-a-days

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

Obviously, the restriction of trinisphere severly hurt Mishra's Workshop based decks. This is a discussion on what direction stax needs to go in order to remain competitive.

I see stax going in two different directions. The first is simply adding sphere of resistance and relying more on board control (meaning the re-inclusion of tangle wire). The second is replacing the trinispheres with chalice. This might be a good way to go if combo becomes very popular. This does mean, however, that you can't effectively run sphere of resistance. The stax list I'm tinkering around with is:

4 Workshop
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
8 MC SoLoMox
1 Mana Vault
1 Lotus Petal
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass

4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Tangle Wire
4 Smokestack
1 Trinisphere
3 Crucible of Worlds

3 Goblin Welder
3 Meditate
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Tinker
1 Balance
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vamp. Tutor
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Crop Rotation
1 Karn, Silver Golem
1 Triskelion

SB:
3 Choke
2 Gorilla Shaman
3 REB
4 Chalice
3 Rack and Ruin

This maindeck has been working for me, although it has lost a bunch of it's early brokenness. I basically took Kevin's latest build, and changed it a bit. I felt that with trinisphere gone, you needed another threat vs. control, so I added welders back in. You really don't need 4, as all you want to see is 1. Stax can still run perfectly fine without him. As for meditate, I figured that now you run tangle wires and such, meditate wouldn't be such a bad idea. Chains of Mephistopheles is very good vs. combo, but it can be a dead draw many times. I'm not so sure about the swords, although I can see them being very useful in the oath matchup. However, those two slots could possibly become a YawgWill, crucible, enlightened tutor, or something else.

I haven't tinkered around with any builds running chalice MD, so any input on that would be useful.

Also, has any tried intuition in stax? It seems like it would be stronger now, since you can grab your lone trinisphere with it and weld it in.

Stax can definitely still be a top deck; it just needs a major tune up. Hopefully some of the stax gurus will chime in.

-Bob

[rvs]

You need to run Chalice maindeck. Until you do, I cannot comment on anything else.

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

Thats the thing though. If you run chalice, you'll have to change the rest of your deck. Assuming you run 4 chalice, if you drop one early, it will be for either one or two. At one, it's not THAT devastating, as you can't cast Welders, Recall, Vamp. Tutor, Swords, and Crop rotation. At two, you lose Sphere of resistance (Which may be weaker vs. combo, but lets you run broken cards of all CCs, and can hold it's own vs. many decks out there), Demonic Tutor, and Balance. I guess you could make the statement that you could play a quick chalice and lock the opponent out, sac it to stack, and then play your other broken spells. Also, playing chalice means you'll want it out ASAP, so it might be better in a straight UR Stax deck, cutting the broken spells in favor of "mana stability" and accelerarion, in the form of Ancient tomb. I'll test out Chalices and see how it goes.

-Bob

[rvs]

To be honest, I'm a bigger fan of UR Stax anyway. If anything, you should at least cut the Crop Rotation. I know its nice to get a T1 shop, but if it gets countered (and it will!), it can be quite devastating. I'm also not sure you need 2 plows if you run the tutoring and Balance. Maybe 1 plow is enough.

[Rancor1]

I agree on the Crop Rotation issue: if it is countered, you loose way too much tempo to win (easily).

On intuition: it's not really that insane unless you have a welder in play already. Seeing as how this isn't really a Welder-based deck, it seems not too much better than fabricate (it's actually a lot better than fabricate, but you know what I meant.) Also, the plan to intuition for your lone trinisphere and weld it in isn't as powerful as it seems, as 3sphere looses a lot of its punch after the 2nd turn.

I would personally like to have an enlightened tutor, and if the metagame deems it necesary, a MD Seal of Cleansing to accompany it. It also helps you find SB stuff like Chains, Choke, or whatever you could find useful.

[Machinus]

You need to run Chalice maindeck. Until you do, I cannot comment on anything else.

How do you reconcile the discrepancy between welders and chalice? If you are playing chalice and cant cast welders, what is the point of red?

[Rancor1]

what is the point of red?

He is not playing dedicated red lands, but rather 5-color lands. He is not playing colors solely for Welder. I do agree with your first point, though.

Edit: Also, goblin welder is often not used immediately. As stated earlier, you could play a Chalice for 1, establish more control with other things, sac the Chalice to Smokestack and play your Welder (and other 1cc things.).

[Windfall]

I have not given up on Stax since the restriction of Trinisphere.  I tested my first draft of a 1 Trinisphere list last night and I liked it a lot.

The way I see it, there are three cards that you need to be able to deal with in order to make Stax win.  Those three cards are Mana Drain, Rebuild/Hurkyl's Recall, and Goblin Welder.

Workshop decks have always been able to race Mana Drain for the most part, but the threat is still there, and if any of the 3 or 4 mana spells get countered with Drain, you will probably lose the game unless your hand is very strong.  Stopping Mana Drain, or at least preventing early Drains is usually the first goal of Stax.

Mass Artifact bouncers are a problem, naturally.  Rebuild is very dangerous in particular because of the built in ability to up the caster's storm by 4 or 5 while wiping Stax's board of threats EOT.  However, I think more people will start boarding in Hurkyl's since the use of Sphere of Resistance will make Rebuild a bit more expensive.  Against combo, this is the card that you need to fight against.  The rest of Stax's deck is pretty good against combo strategies.

And lastly, Goblin Welder.  This little guy can wreck Stax's game in many ways.  Usually, the opponent's Welders won't touch his own graveyard, but will mess with all the lock components Stax plays.  In particular, Smokestack becomes uselss against him.

Thus, I have been working on a Stax list that fights those three cards, and I would never cut Tangle Wire from the deck.  Despite what people say or think, Chalice of the Void is just not that good.  Goblin Welder is also amazing and I would not run a list without him.  His other 1 mana friend, Gorilla Shaman, is also a house and needs to be in the deck.

Once I test a bit more with my newest list (post restriction), I'll share it with people, but I don't want to put something out there until I am sure it actually works.  I'm just sharing my thoughts on the weaknesses of Stax that I've discovered through contstant playing of the deck for the past two or three months.

[Godot]

His other 1 mana friend, Gorilla Shaman, is also a house and needs to be in the deck.

Quoted for trutheration.

In any build of Stax where Sphere of Resistance is the main mana curve altering lock piece Shaman is absolutely amazing.  Bob, why did you cut this guy--especially after how much ass he kicked in testing?

[Hi-Val]

Goblin Welder is also amazing and I would not run a list without him.  

Have you seen Kevin Cron's latest list, running 0 Welders? What is your opinion on it?


Personally, I think Welders are just a skill tester, like the people who run TFK over Meditate in Stax because it's "safer".

[Rapalaman1]

I see no reason to run thirst over meditate in a version that plays tangle wire. I think tangle wire should not have been cut to begin with but i can see some of the reasons. Crons list was definately solid and I think the Chains deserve a place in the deck somewhere, but probably in the SB, since multiple meditates are stronger.

[Windfall]

Windfall wrote:
Goblin Welder is also amazing and I would not run a list without him.

 


Have you seen Kevin Cron's latest list, running 0 Welders? What is your opinion on it?


Personally, I think Welders are just a skill tester, like the people who run TFK over Meditate in Stax because it's "safer".

I see no reason not to run Welder.  Let's face it, Crucible of Worlds is not as good as it used to be, and Stax loses when it's opening hand was not good enough because it lacks a way to smooth out bad draws.  Let me point out the merits of Goblin Welder in Stax.

1 - If you rip a Welder in the mid game, after your opponent has used resources stopping your early lock attempt, he gets you back in the game if you're losing.

2 - He helps the deck defeat Force of Will and Mana Drain.

3 - Welder lessens the severity of Rack and Ruin.  One of the targets will get welded out, keeping an Artifact on the board, and if the other one was really important, you can get it back on the board.

4 - I've visited a family of Goblin Welders before, and one thing I noticed about their culture is that they like to play with Tangle Wire when they're bored.

5 - Smokestack becomes a real threat to the opponent, since you can up the soot to two and then weld it out after the opponent's upkeep.

6 - He helps you beat Tinker, which is big card in the Slaver matchup, and another enemy of Stax that I didn't mention before (another reason Tangle Wire needs to be in the deck).

7 - Welders are always at work, even in the early game.  First turn Welders do more than protect you from countermagic, they also make mana and allow you to play more threats.  People seem to forget this all the time.

So, I could probably keep going, but I think you get the idea.  Are Goblin Welders just "training wheels?"  Maybe, but if they make the deck win, then why not play with them.  1 mana bombs that win me the game are pretty good in my opinion.

Now, I believe Kevin did not run Welders because his deck ran less artifacts than previous Stax players.  Also, his deck takes Stax in a strange direction, which is okay.  My deck is pretty different from the traditional list too, and I can't wait to test it out in a big setting.

[Wollblad]

There are several good comments in this thread. I would like to comment on some of them sharing my experiences from playtesting.

You need to run Chalice maindeck. Until you do, I cannot comment on anything else.

I agree on this one. If you draw it early, put it on zero and drop additional threats, later on drop it for one or two. You have several ways of removing it and if you play it right it will hurt your opponent much more than you.

I'm not so sure about the swords, although I can see them being very useful in the oath matchup. However, those two slots could possibly become a YawgWill, crucible, enlightened tutor, or something else.

Swords aren't as useful against Oath as you would think. Sword one creature and they will still have one left. The Oath matchup is not about large creature when they hit the table, it is about Smokestack. Sure you can randomly hit with a Sword, but they are most often dead in your hand. They are superb against Slaver, Fish and against other Stax, but I'm not sure they pull their weight. They are however better than Yawgmoth's Will which is a pure lategame card and not a specially good one either since it will probably cost you like four non-Workshop Mana and will give you some moxen and perhaps an artifact. Something else shoudl instead defineatly be Memory Jar.

I see no reason to run thirst over meditate in a version that plays tangle wire.

There are reasons not to run Meditate either. They will cost four under just one Sphere of Resistance and are not bad under Tangle Wire but only really good if you have a Smokestack out. There are much better things to do but waiting for the right time to come to play your Meditate, specially since Meditate will then be more or less just a win-more card.

Goblin Welder is also amazing and I would not run a list without him.

I think Windfall has said everything worth to say about Welders. I would only like to add that it is much possible to go down to three Welders. The pentacolored deck has a tendesy on packing too many colored spells, so you have to limit yourself.

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

Great discussion!

to comment on a few things:

Crop Rotation: I'm a huge fan of this card, and can't see myself cutting it anytime soon. It's an instant, so vs. control, you can cast it when they're tapped out forcing them use force. If they're wasting force of wills on crop rotation, I'm fine with that. Also, people tend to forget you do play crucibles in your deck. The ability of roation to generate massive mana (Academy), or to stifle someone else's mana (strip mine) is simply huge.

Chalice: I have mixed feelings after testing a bit. You never want to see it in multiples, and sometimes, it does hurt you. A deck like slaver won't really be phased by it, as it still can draw cards and cast tinker/welder. Sphere IMO is still more solid MD. I will say that Chalice is pretty amazing vs. combo. If deathlong or such gets popular, I could see a switch to chalice.

Shaman: He's really good, but I honestly couldn't find room for him. Maybe -2 Swords, +2 Shaman? After trinisphere got the boot, I basically felt that it was necessary to run Welder (for the reasons mentioned above). Fitting in 3 welders and 4 tangle wire meant some things had to be cut.

Meditate/Chains: Meditate is stronger. In a deck that ran 7 spheres (cron's list), the disruption was far more important than drawing cards. With trinisphere gone, you need to rely on board control in the form of smokestack/tangle wire. I used to be a huge fan of thirst, but now, I'm on the other side of the fence.

Also, I think the resaon Kevin didn't run welders was purely a metagame call. I remember Steve saying that stax build was meant to beat slaver. In a metagame FULL of slaver, I wouldn't run welders either, as one slave activation will end the game for stax, if the stax player has welder on the board.

-Bob

[Rapalaman1]

It's a shame that Chains are going to have to get the axe in the deck due to less spheres. It really seems like this was finally the perfect application for them with maybe the exception of 5/3.

[Wollblad]

Chalice: I have mixed feelings after testing a bit. You never want to see it in multiples, and sometimes, it does hurt you. A deck like slaver won't really be phased by it, as it still can draw cards and cast tinker/welder. Sphere IMO is still more solid MD.

Meditate/Chains: Meditate is stronger. In a deck that ran 7 spheres (cron's list), the disruption was far more important than drawing cards. With trinisphere gone, you need to rely on board control in the form of smokestack/tangle wire. I used to be a huge fan of thirst, but now, I'm on the other side of the fence.

Why do you wheight Chalice against SoR? You will soon discover that you need some Chalice as well. If you're up against TPS and drop a first turn SoR which gets forced, shall you just pass the turn and hope for a miracle? Same goes for any other powered deck. If they begin, Chalice is weaker, but it will for example destroy Oath if put on two, and against Slaver it is an absolute hooser on one. Not only does it stop their Welders, it nullifiels Brainstorm, Ancestral and Mystical Tutor as well. You will loose Welders and some random cards, but holding their welders off is worth more than getting your own.

Then for Chains/Meditate. You don't have neither Yawgmoth's Will, nor Memory Jar in your list. So compare two Meditate against those two cards. Two of the most broken cards in Magic compared to situational card drawing. How can you choose Meditate?

[Marton]

Ok, I have a suggestion to make that might seem very unusual. Has anyone tested null rod in stax? While it is highly anti synergistic with the deck, it does combines very well with crucible and SoR. Personally I use it as a 'fallback' disruption if I cannot get the lock fast enough. I have been using 2x of them and i've been happy with them. I won't lie and confirm that I did had to do major changes to run null rods, but I am not unsatisfied by my choice.

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

YawgWill is purely a late game card in stax. Where kevin ran will, I run 3 welders. Drawing will while your setting up the lock is pretty terrible. As for jar, I really dislike it. Why give them a chance to brainstorm back good stuff when I can just draw 4 cards?

As far as chalice goes, I understand it's good, I'm just comparing it to sphere of resistance. Both slow down your opponent, only with sphere you don't need to retool your deck at all.

-Bob

[Rapalaman1]

On one hand I agree that Yawgwill is not a very good fit in the deck since like stated, you usually can only re-play some moxen or an artifact or two.But on the other hand, I think the Will was extremely good in builds like Crons that have more bombs and cards that cant be welded back in.

As for the Jar, I think it is an amazing addition to the deck if you decide to play welders. The Jar recursion is simply ridiculous especially if you have Academy untapped and workshops in play. I can understand the arguement not to play it, but I think that shares the same risks as playing any draw 7 in this deck, ie. Wheel,Windfall,or Twister.

[CHA1N5]

Good discussion, all.

Regarding my Cuse deck: it was very metagamed.  So much so that I suggest not using it as a starting point for any other $T4KS construction.  There are some important lessons to be had by observing my results, but they are not the gospel on the future of $T4KS.

The most important advise I can give to anyone constructing $T4KS is this:  a successful $T4KS list is a Journey, not a Destination. Be sure you understand the role of each of the cards you have included, in EVERY matchup.  My Cuse list was arrived at through just this sort of analysis.  Tangle Wire was first to go, since RnR and Rebuild pwned it.  Next was Welder, because of the Slaver issue that Clown has already sighted.  This development process is very intensive and very rewarding.

$T4KS is very similar to X-Color Control these days:  you need to understand the environment you're building for, because any sort of "Standard" build is a farse.

I don't say these things to undermine the goal of this thread.  Rather, I'm suggesting that you all consider your own metagame considerations when making your observations.  I guarantee that Clown and Windfal (for example) are developing for different environments (save them both arriving at SCG Chicago ).

[JuJu]

Kevin said it alot better then most people can. I agree completely on the fact that Stax, and alot of the other decks are supposed to be tuned to your metagame. For example, Deathlong can't change a whole lot because the goal of it is to get a huge tendrils off. Stax has changed from the old days of getting a Welder into play until you can finish with Karn, to getting prison pieces into play and biding your time until you can drop anything you want and just win with it.

This may be a question that has been answered before so I'm sorry in advance.
What makes Stax better then the other control decks?

[rvs]

What makes Stax better then the other control decks?

I'm not convinced it is better, but the main difference is that (in a sense) stax plays solutions pro-actively, in the way that it tries to stop the opponent from playing threats that need solving in the first place. Maybe we should start calling it 'good parfait'

[forests failed you]

Stax is not a control deck, it is a prison deck; And furthermore, it is good because it denies its opponents mana and resources.  When a player doesn't have mana and can't play spells, they lose.

[Wollblad]

After testing this deck extensivly I've come to the conclusion that pentacolored Stax sucks, or more precise, Gemstone Mine sucks under Sphere of Resistance. Why?

When you start the game, the best thing that can happen is that you can chose to play first, so let's examine that case. You almost always want to play a Sphere of Resitance. Optimally you'll have both Worhsop, Mox and more lands in your hand and under such circumstances everything will work out just fine. It's the cases which are not optimal but still good that make Gemstone Mine so bad. Lets examine a hand with:
1 Mishra's Workshop
1 Gemstome Mine
1 Sphere of Resistance
1 Goblin Welder
1 Meditate
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Tangle Wire
At least I would keep this hand giving me first turn SoR and second, turn Wire, third turn Welder or Crucible. But wait here for a moment. On your second turn, you'll drop Gemstone Mine to play Wire, two counters left. Suppose you don't draw another land on turn two or three. You'll then be left with one counter on the Gemstone mine after turn 3. Then, if you draw a land on turn four and play something, for example a Welder, your Gemstone Mine goes away. If you draw another land turn 5, you'll have 5 mana instead of 6 which has then slowed you down.

This was a very specific, but not an unlikely, example. I can however find many, many more of them which involves no Workshops but a few moxen or your opponent wasting your lands, leaving Gemstone Mine to destroy itself. It becomes very obvious when playing the deck, that under Sphere of Resistance you'll need all the mana you can get, which forces you to frequently tap Gemstone Mine even if you only want colorless mana.

For the moment I have returned to U/R Stax since it at least does not casually destroy its own lands. But I really miss the tremedous sideboard  that a five-colour manabase gives. I have been looking at Tendo Ice Bridge. Could that land perhaps solve the problem? I have found that Gemstone Mines run out of counters being tapped for colored mana once or never far more often that I tap them twice for colored mana.

[49 Cents]

Joram de Kraker piloted this list to a 7th place in Leiden, 28-03-05:

Mono Staxx

Maindeck

4 Mishra’s Workshop
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
2 Crystal Vein
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Tolarian Academy
3 Metalworker
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Sphere of Resistance
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Smokestack
1 Trinisphere
3 Null Brooch
2 Jester’s Cap
4 Grafted Skullcap
1 Triskelion
2 Karn, Silver Golem
3 Tangle Wire

Sideboard

1 Mindslaver
2 Defense Grid
2 Orb of Dreams
2 Spawning Pit
1 Triskelion
3 Damping Matrix
1 Karn, Silver Golem
3 Ensnaring Bridge

What do you think about it?

Greetz,

Hugo

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

I've been messing around with stax quite a bit lately, and I still haven't found a good configuration yet. What Wollblad said about Gemstone mine is pretty much true. At the moment, I've cut lotus petal and another mana source (still up in the air) for 2 ancient tombs. They really help under sphere. I know there was a great debate over "Tomb or No?" for some time, but I'm still pretty impressed with the card.

As far as testing goes, stax still seems to do fine vs. combo, so long as it's on the play. Sphere of resistance is a huge hoser, and backed with tangle wire, it's brutal. I did, however, have a pretty hard time vs. Goth Slaver and Oath varients. I missed trinisphere the most in that matchup. Also, what people have been saying about welder applies more now than ever. I lost many games to slaver just off the strength of "volcanic, Welder, go." Shaman helps, but not when they're fucking you over with your own tangle wires. As much as I hate to admit it, it seems Chalice is needed in this matchup. With that in mind, I've also been running Hanna's Custody. It protects your artifacts from hate, and also shuts off welders and shamans, which can be very annoying.

I was a huge fan of UR stax for awhile, as it is the more consistent deck, but I really can't see stax doing well in the metagame if it doesn't run broken cards like Balance and tutors, especially after it lost trinisphere. Also, like you said multi-color gives the best possible SB cards. I've won countless games off the power of Choke; I've stolen many a games from Oath with Swords. UR might be viable, but in a format where Wastelands are at a low (Fish is obsolete, the only decks runninng them are stax and oath), I don't see why you wouldn't want to run 5c manabase and get away with it.

-Bob

[Rancor1]

I'd like to point out that in Wollbad's example, gemstone mine can be replayed by the crucible in his hand.

I also like Ancient Tomb a lot. It is a safer card, in terms of consistancy in the deck as a whole, than MWS.

[Wollblad]

I'd like to point out that in Wollbad's example, gemstone mine can be replayed by the crucible in his hand.

Sure it can, but the point is that you can stall on mana, not becasue you don't haveenough lands, but because you have to replay your Gemstone Mines instead of dropping new lands.

[Rapalaman1]

I think it's amazing that an OLD school stax list like the one shown can still compete. I loved playing the old version, just plain old mono brown with jesters caps main, grafted skullcap, and most of all, null brooch. I thought that deck did not stand a chance against in the environment since tendrils was printed but maybe I was wrong.

Also, to add something else to the discussion, I have been testing a Metalworker/Staff stax variant (if you want to call it one). It is mono-brown but still has all the components that any other stax deck does:4x stack,wire,chalice,sphere,3x crucible,1x Trinisphere and to a lesser extent, 4x metalworker and 4x staff. Now I'm not saying that this is better than a 5-color stax build because the down side of this deck is it's one draw spell: memory jar...and that's it. No tutors or fancy Hanna's this or that. But on the plus side it allows my manabase to be more flexable and have a fast/reliable combo kill in a prision deck.

And again, props to Joram for being sweet  

[Klep]

I think it's amazing that an OLD school stax list like the one shown can still compete. I loved playing the old version, just plain old mono brown with jesters caps main, grafted skullcap, and most of all, null brooch. I thought that deck did not stand a chance against in the environment since tendrils was printed but maybe I was wrong.

Stax was never Mono-Brown.  You're thinking of MUD, which is what that deck actually looks like (and honestly, Stax is probably a lot better than it).  For you to be running old school Stax you'd have to be running a number of Draw-7's and meditates.