[Deck] Slaver USA

[Eandori]

I'll have to look into Rack and Ruin.  If I was going to run that, I would have to change the Disenchants and the Ripples in the SB.  Rebalance it a bit.  It's an idea, I'm not sure about losing the ability to destroy enchantments though since most decks sideboard stuff like Ground Seal against Slaver.  It requires some thought.

Yeah, Time Walk is great.  The deck DOES have it, and many times in games 2 & 3 it's main deck.  This deck list is very thin and I'm trying something new with the Wish.  So far it's paying off.  Countering a Time walk is NOT a bad idea, because it's a 1:1 card tradeoff, and they might be tapped out while you take your next turn, only fearing a FoW.  Early game walk is not that broken, mid/late game is broken and I can still wish it out game 1, and just cast it games 2 and 3.

Still interested in tourney results with red/white/blue slaver.

Dude... me too.

Believe me, I want more then anything to play this in a big local tournament.  I'm doing what I can to find one.  Portland Oregon sucks for Vintage.

[Freelancer]

Actually the only cards that can counter a time walk early game (turn 1/2) is force of will, at which point they do get card disadvantage.

Does ancestral recall win games? Does yawgmoth's will win games? Does tinker win games? If the answer is yes (which it is) than PLEASE run demonic tutor main it essentially gives you one more copy of every broken card in your deck. There is no better tutor in this game (vamp might get close).


I'm not going to discuss the basic concept behind the deck anymore (including scepter in CS is still a bad idea in my mind) because it doesn't add anything to the discussion. So some tweaks instead:
1) Stifle>squelch Cute tricks like squelch are nice but not needed.
2) Cut reality ripple its horrible (you'd rather wish for something that actually deals with the thread like; swords/disenchant/Rack and ruin) again a cute trick but not needed
3) Add a rack and ruin to the sideboard it really is very good.
4) PLEASE add in time walk main, its a P9 for a reason. Early game it will gain you a lot of momentum (or tempo) it will also allow silliness like first turn mana drain/tinker/thirst when you have a mox. Remember it isn't just a cantrip early game its also a extra land drop.
5) Find something to cut from the maindeck, 61 cards (unless you have a really really good reason) is inferior to 60 cards. (probabilites and shit, if you use the search option you will find a bunch of threads about this)

[Eandori]

Time walk is restricted and called one of the "power 9" for a reason.  Maindecked time walk is so good I can't begin to describe it.  Just run it!  Nobody's going to counter a turn 1 time walk.  Dude that's MAD card disadvantage.

How many of the power 9 were in the Food Chain Goblins deck that just won?  How many of the 9 are in Fish?  Landstill?  Do you play Timetwister?

Point being, not all cards fit in all decks.  Time walk is great in Slaver, but it does not help as much early game.  It helps mid/late game, at which point I can wish for it in game one, and I can have it mainboard in games 2,3.  In all the games I have played so far, drawing a Burning Wish instead of a time walk has NOT YET made the difference.  But having the wish and being able to get my twist or balance HAS won me the game.

Rack and Ruin does not deserve a slot over disenchant IMO.  I want to be able to "answer" enchantments, especially with how people sideboard against slaver. (Ground Seal, Control Magic, Planar Void, etc.)

I still have no idea how you justify not running Demonic.  Tutors that find cards that win are generally considered pretty good.

because this entire deck is designed to be a "control" slaver type deck that actually has "control" by the ability to answer.  White lets me answer.  If I up the black too high, my white is weak and I might as well play standard CS.

For another thing the intuition and extra card draw I have in the deck now REALLY helped me dig to the cards I want.  Demonic tutor is not an extra copy of a broken card, it's a 2 mana sorcery that might tap me out and does NOT get through all the time these days because far too many lands can be fetched in this format that can wreck you just as much.

I just got an Alpha Demonic Tutor from my wife for our 2nd Anniversary.  I love the card, and I would love to play it.  But I don't want to dilute my deck theme by adding too much Black.  I don't think it needs the tutor and my mana base would be too thin if I added it.

How do I sideboard against combo?? Other decks?? Well that depends entirely on which deck you are talking about, right?? So which deck are you talking about?

I would say the ones that I mentioned-CS, storm combo, other bluebased control like Gifts.

CS: +2 REB, +1 Time Walk, +2 StP, +2 Disenchant, +2 Tormod's Crypt, +1 Triskelion
    -2 Cunning Wish, -1 Burning Wish, -2 Isochron Scepter, -2 FoW, -2 Brainstorm

Storm Combo: +2 REB, +1 Time Walk, (StP and Disenchant depend on how his combo works)
    -2 Cunning Wish, -1 Burning Wish

Gifts: depends on how the Gifts deck is built.  I have seen so many builds so far.

Before you say it, yeah I DO remove Force of Wills and Brainstorms sometimes.  Against some decks like control etc, Force of Will is great for the suprise, but horrible card disadvantage.  If they still play me as if I had 4 FoW (very defensively) but I actually have more cards that don't give disadvantage or threaten them, then I gain huge advantage from that.  I would much rather REB then FoW by pitching a blue card given the choice against another control deck where cards in hand = you win.

Brainstorm is great, but unless my opponent is playing discard, I will often board in the answers that I KNOW he has to worry about.  I can bleed his countermagic alot easier with answers he hates rather then brainstorm.

As a final note, my deck list has changed again.  I was having trouble with Stax, and other decks like Oath, Dragon, Landstill have always been problems.  I was always abused by their lands, because I ran no land destruction in my version of Slaver.  Well I have finally changed that, I now have a strip mine main board, and 2 wastelands sideboard.  The change has REALLY made the deck stronger.  Also, I noticed that I almost never side boarded in my Stifle/Interdict.  So I removed them and added another REB and Tormod's Crypt. 

I tried out Twincast in this deck.  No good here.  I moved Abeyance to the sideboard, and ended choosing to put it back in.  At the very least Abeyance cantrips and does not leave me card disadvantage when I don't need it.  Here is the current deck list.


Spells 36
4   Goblin Welder
1   Yawgmoth's Will
2   Abeyance
2   Cunning Wish
4   Brainstorm
2   Mindslaver
1   Platinum Angel
1   Pentavus
2   Isochron Scepter
1   Burning Wish
1   Ancestral Recall
1   Tinker
1   Fact or Fiction
4   Thirst for Knowledge
4   Mana Drain
4   Force of Will
1   Intuition   

Mana Sources 25
2   Island
1   Strip Mine
3   Tundra
3   Volcanic Island
1   Underground Sea
4   Flooded Strand
2   Darksteel Citadel
1   Tolarian Academy
1   Library of Alexandria
1   Black Lotus
1   Mox Sapphire
1   Mox Jet
1   Mox Ruby
1   Mox Emerald
1   Mox Pearl
1   Sol Ring
   
Sideboard
2   Tormod's Crypt
1   Moat
1   Triskelion
1   Timetwister
1   Time Walk
1   Balance
2   Red Elemental Blast
2   Wasteland
2   Disenchant
2   Swords to Plowshares

There is finally a Vintage-Power tournament happening in my area soon.  July 9th.  God and Wife willing I will be there!

[Moxlotus]

Time walk is great in Slaver, but it does not help as much early game.

Because turn 1 land, mox, Time Walk is an absolute terrible play.

[Eandori]

Because turn 1 land, mox, Time Walk is an absolute terrible play.

Well, if that mox was a sapphire, then I would rather "threaten" them with mana drain that I might have and save the walk for when it's actually broken.

Or if I was playing mana leak, I would rather stay open to counter their first or second turn bust out and not lose 2 cards by pitching to my own force.  Again, saving my Time Walk for when it's really broken.

Or if I had 2 blue in play, I would rather not tap out by casting a sorcery.  Yes Time walk is worth countering, because if my opponent wants to cast something and I'm tapped out, that means I must Force of Will, pitching a card.  That's assuming I have it.  So mana drain-->time walk was 1:1, giving him 2 colorless extra on his next turn.  Then, not only does he have 2 colorless on his next turn, but I lose card advantage if I want to counter what he does with his 4 to 5 mana.

This is not complex theory here...  Time walk is the most broken in late game.  By leaving wish main board and time walk side board I left myself with options that can, and HAVE brought me back to win the game.

[Moxlotus]

This is not complex theory here...  Time walk is the most broken in late game.

It is more broken in the late game, like Yawg Will.  But I'll cast Yawg Will turn 4 if I can play a strip, a Brainstorm and a Thirst off it because it will still be enough to put you ahead for the rest of the game.  Turn 1 Walk will put you ahead on mana and a card.  By holding back with Leak you are not grabbing at the chance to pull ahead of your opponent-which will give you significant advantage all game long.  If they Force Time Walk, big deal-they wasted a Force on something that doesn't hurt them a lot and can't protect their own big spell now.

[Joblin Velder]

An eary TIme Walk helps set up a fatal Will and gives you a pretty sizable tempo boost.

Time Walk + Goblin Welder while your opponent is tapped out or you have force back up just wins games.

[warble]

Turn 1 Walk will put you ahead on mana and a card.

Not exactly, only the mana, but that's usually enough given Slaver's draw power is all instants to get you that card.

Time Walk + Goblin Welder while your opponent is tapped out or you have force back up just wins games.

This is really the origin of the complaint.  It's relatively difficult to set up a slave, especially against 4cc, fcg and a mirror with a welder out, but walk makes this brilliantly easy.  Playing cards that are strong in the late game is a huge mistake in Slaver, mainly because Slaver absolutely dominates the late game.

[Eandori]

Slaver absolutely dominates the late game.

When you are already winning, or have bascially already won... yes.

In long, drawn out fights for control... no.

Does slaver always win when it gets to late game?  No.

Casting a welder, then the walk to activate him is NOT OUT OF MY BOUNDS with my current build.  Again, let me RESTATE that I have always been able to wish for the walk, and cast it when I wanted to so far.  Considering the amount of times I have successfully time walked un-side boarded and un-impended, compared to the number of times I have wished for the twist or balance to save my butt, I'm currently happy with my choice of BW main deck and TW sideboard.

It was a gamble when I first tried it, and it works out every time so far.  This is after HUNDREDS of games played with this deck.  Anyways, wishes make very easy sideboard targets on games 2 and 3.

[Moxlotus]

Does slaver always win when it gets to late game?  No.

Does it win >90%?  Yes.  Wouldn't you want to focus on the early game which isn't great when the late game is amazing?

[Revvik]

Time Walk - one out of the 60 cards in the deck.  Costs 1U.
Burning Wish for Time Walk - You just made Time Walk cost 2UR, and cost a business spell.  Expensive.
I cannot agree that the play "Burning Wish for Time Walk from the sideboard" is a good play.

If that mox is a sapphire...

More often it will not be, so why not play Time Walk and walk your way up to UU, eh?

[Eandori]

I don't think the changes I made to slaver were for "late game."  They were put there so I could answer what my opponent did reactively  That can happen early, mid or late game.  An early disenchant, plow, etc. can be just the thing to disrupt your opponents tempo enough to launch you into the mid or late game where slaver is strong.

I only pay 2UR for wish and walk when I want to do it on the same turn.  That's not always how it works, and again it's only in game one.  Again, let me recap...

Say you play 3 games.  Time walk is probably main deck in games 2 and 3 unless it seemed like a card that would not help.  The only game it's sideboarded is game 1.  So 33% of the time it's a question.  Of that 33% of the time, I usually want to time walk in the mid or late game.    Just like what was stated here, casting and activating a welder is strong.  It's very easy to get my mindslaver etc. into my GY.  My opponent does not worry as much until a welder hits the board.  I don't always put him out there until I want to use him, unless I'm racing another deck and using the welder for disruption or pressure.  So in game one, I would say that 90% of the time I don't want to cast time walk until mid or late game.  Sure it can change tempo when cast early, but it will win the game when cast mid or late.  Setting out another land?  That's very similar to just casting a mox.  Casting a mox helps, but usually does not win the game.  So 10% of the 33% is 3.3% of the time where my decision to sideboard the walk in game one is bad.

3.3%?  No, I don't care about that.  That's a good bet and I'll take my odds on it.  Like I keep telling you but you don't care to listen to, that bet has paid off for me every time so far.  I'm very happy with the BW main board and the TW side board.  Thanks.

[Moxlotus]

Time walk is probably main deck in games 2 and 3 unless it seemed like a card that would not help. 

If it gets boarded in most of the time, chances are it is a good card to have in the maindeck.

Also I'm sure many opponent's are happy that you aren't allowing yourself to take 2 turns before they have taken any.  I must ask, have you ever cast a Yawg Will for a fetch and a Brainstorm?  Yes, Time Walk into the win is a fun play, but it isn't always necessary-most of the time you are in a position to win anyways.  A turn 1/2 Time Walk will put you ahead a land drop which allows you to get Mana Drain online before your opponent gets a turn-this affects what your opponent does from the beginning.  This mana and threat/bluff of Drain can be enough to pull you out of games that you would otherwise lose rather than being a win more card late game.

[Revvik]

What he said.  It's restricted for a reason.

An early disenchant, plow, etc. can be just the thing to disrupt your opponents tempo enough to launch you into the mid or late game where slaver is strong.

Gee, the same could be said about, oh, I dunno - CASTING TIME WALK.
And it's not reliant on your opponent to play cards that you can disenchant / plow / etc.
Time Walk = tempo.  Your mid- and late-game will happen sooner when you aren't wasting Burning Wish on a card that should honestly be in your main.

[Eandori]

I don't believe that an early Time Walk has ever won me the game on turns 1-2.  The game normally is won after an exchange of counter magic and somebody "breaks through" then runs away with the tempo.

An early Time walk is a minor alteration to tempo, but a mid/late game Time Walk, Balance, or Timetwister can entirely swing the tide of the game.

The reason Time Walk goes in games 2 and 3 pretty often is because since I know what my opponent is playing, I can thin out other cards that don't help much and Time Walk is normally one of the first cards traded in.  Problem here being, there are so many decks I run up against in Vintage, and I have to be ready for everything, so I just don't feel there is enough slots in the deck to have the Walk and everything else in game one.  As I see it my deck is more "generally good" in game 1, and "refined to kill" in games 2 and 3.

You guys will probably never agree, and that's just fine with me.  I don't agree with you.  I know based on the results of how my deck plays out that the choice I made has been a good one so far.

[Eandori]

BTW, here is another quote from Jacob Orlove in another thread...

Force of Will and Brainstorm are easily in the top 5 most powerful blue cards in the format (the others are Ancestral, Tinker, and Desire, with Drain 6th). They may not cost $300, but they really are much stronger than, say, Time Walk.

The later the game, the stronger Time Walk gets.

-I don't always need to wish then walk same turn spending 2UR. 
-When the Walk is in the GY, casting it after a Yawgmoth's Win is only 1U.
-There are times when I draw the Burning Wish and I'm GLAD that I could get Balance, because had it been a Time Walk, I would have lost.

[Rico Suave]

-There are times when I draw the Burning Wish and I'm GLAD that I could get Balance, because had it been a Time Walk, I would have lost.

There are times when Mountain Goat will win games that Yawgmoth's Will could not.  The problem arises in that you probably just don't see the vast majority of games that Time Walk will win you that Burning Wish cannot.

Time Walk on ANY turn will win many games.  A first turn Time Walk before your opponent gets a turn will result in you getting another land drop and having UU up on their first turn.  That is game-breaking, especially in a format where you can lose on the first turn.  Time Walk on turn 2 will let you Mystical/Vamp tutor for Tinker before your opponent gets UU up.  A Time Walk late game will let you cast a huge spell, have it countered (tapping them out), then you can untap and cast Will unimpeded.

Casting Time Walk is a good play, whereas casting Burning Wish - Time Walk is a poor play. 

Time Walk makes all of your future turns happen sooner, much like a Mox does, and hopefully you agree that Moxen are good.  Playing a first turn land, mox, mox Tinker is just as good as going first turn land, mox, Walk, untap, land, Tinker.  Think of Time Walk as your 6th Mox, except later on it will produce far more than 1 mana and it cantrips which a Mox cannot do. 

Time Walk lets you play a 59 card deck.  Brainstorms on top of that let you play a 55 card deck.  There is no reason not to play Time Walk when thinking of it in that sense.  Just because Force of Will and Brainstorm are better than Time Walk doesn't mean that you shouldn't play with Time Walk.  Abeyance was made as an imitation of Time Walk that doesn't let you untap, doesn't get an extra attack phase, and doesn't get another land drop, yet you still play that card. 

Whatever the case, Time Walk is a really good card and I highly doubt that your deck performs better without it than with it.  You may think and play whatever you like, but playing without Time Walk and trying to justify it because you say your deck performs better that way looks a lot like denial.  There is a reason it is part of the P9, part of every deck in Vintage that can support it, and even part of your deck if only in the wrong spot. 

[silvernail]

Wow heated discussons abound batman! i have a few bones to pick about your deck just like everyone else. First off the abeyances should really be orims chant because it  costs 1 less and can cost the double white to allow you a fog vs aggro decks, which is a huge boon if you run it with the scepter(though scepter isnt what CS wants to be doing it wants to mindslaver quickly).

if you're not running crucible of worlds dont run artifact lands because the whole point of them is to create a welder slave lock.
Run a second underground sea and another island.

Cunning wish is really bad because you sacrifice SB stability by building around it,which is also made harder by running Burning wish as well as cunning. I would cut the burning wish for MD time walk and/or MD balance then cut timetwister SB so you now have 2-3 more SB slots and if you still want to run cunning wish then id add at least one orims chant SB and 2 echoing truth. And if you refuse to cut BW at least change the SB twister to deep anaylysis because what you want ot do by casting twister is draw more cards and deep anaylisis is better than twister for you because your opponent gets nothing from it.

Also cut intuition for demonic tutor it will be a much better 1 of for you because it always(if it resolves) gets you the card you want.

thats my advice for running the deck if you insist on playing white however
overall it seems to me that you're adding white to combat creatures, which isnt that great because you can run other choices to deal with creatures such as Engineered Explosives , pyroclasm,starstorm ,or if you want to get janky overburden and propaganda. that would allow you a better mana base and more stablitiy as well as consistency.But hey if you want to run it with white and it works for you more power to you i would however consider altering the deck heavily as i noted above.

oh and to hop on the band wagon, time walk is broken, in thsi game getting more than your opponent of any resource ( turns cards life threats mana you name it) is really good and can win games. Time walk undeniabliy gives you more than your opponent and card games are resource wars, take what you can get when you can get it.

[Eandori]

Whatever the case, Time Walk is a really good card and I highly doubt that your deck performs better without it than with it.  You may think and play whatever you like, but playing without Time Walk and trying to justify it because you say your deck performs better that way looks a lot like denial.  There is a reason it is part of the P9, part of every deck in Vintage that can support it, and even part of your deck if only in the wrong spot.

Please take your whole response and read what I already wrote to others.  BTW, Jacob Orlove disagree's with you based on his comment that I quoted.  I agree with Jacob, thanks.

Enough of the "it's power 9 for a reason" comment already...
1. It's IN my deck
2. Not all decks these days pack full power 9 (Oath, Stax, Standard Slaver, Fish, FCG, etc etc...)
3. I have it main deck games 2 and 3 when I know what i can remove.

First off the abeyances should really be orims chant because it  costs 1 less and can cost the double white to allow you a fog vs aggro decks, which is a huge boon if you run it with the scepter(though scepter isnt what CS wants to be doing it wants to mindslaver quickly).

Yes Orims chant stops attack and other spells, but no cantrip.  Abeyance at the very least replaces itself and I have found that to be just what I want.  Especially when it's on a scepter.  I tried Orims chant, I like Abeyance in the deck.

if you're not running crucible of worlds dont run artifact lands because the whole point of them is to create a welder slave lock.
Run a second underground sea and another island.

You need to check up on most standard CS decklists, and how to play the deck.  Because there are points about it you miss.  The Citadels are for helping me get out artifacts into play that I can weld, or more targets to discard to the thirst.   Under a Trinisphere, or Sphere of Resistence, a Citadel is the bomb.  Citadel is also the bomb against land destruction.  Citadel discards to thirst, gives me an easy target for welding, and I think it's perfect just like it is.

Cunning wish is really bad because you sacrifice SB stability by building around it,which is also made harder by running Burning wish as well as cunning. I would cut the burning wish for MD time walk and/or MD balance then cut timetwister SB so you now have 2-3 more SB slots and if you still want to run cunning wish then id add at least one orims chant SB and 2 echoing truth. And if you refuse to cut BW at least change the SB twister to deep anaylysis because what you want ot do by casting twister is draw more cards and deep anaylisis is better than twister for you because your opponent gets nothing from it.

The sideboard is not really weaker, it's built to work around how the deck is built to work.  I have cards in my sideboard that I like to sideboard in against people, they are also great wish targets.  I have carefully picked them to fit both rolls and I think it's doing a great job of exactly that.  My Slaver USA deck is a SOLID DECK against more then just your typical Vintage net decks, pretty much everything I run this deck against gets smashed, or it goes toe to toe.  That's what i have seen so far.  The "main deck" is built to be very versatile, sacrificing "refined power".  Because remember, being lean and mean usually means you have a weakness that many decks can exploit.  So the entire "theory" behind this deck was very generally strong in game one, and then much more refined in subsequent games.  I believe the deck works very well at doing just that.

Also cut intuition for demonic tutor it will be a much better 1 of for you because it always(if it resolves) gets you the card you want.

Again, you don't understand why I want the Intuition there.  I WANT CARDS IN MY GRAVEYARD!  The MOST common target for an Intuition is Mindslaver, Pentavus, and Platinum Angel or another Mindslaver.  Setting up the "lock" is all about 5+ lands, 2 welders, Pentavus and Slaver.  Intuition gets me there much faster then the tutor does.  And it does not force me to push up the amount of black mana sources, and I can also cast it on my opponents turn.  Not forcing me to tap out 2 mana before he goes.  I like the Intuition, Thanks.

thats my advice for running the deck if you insist on playing white however
overall it seems to me that you're adding white to combat creatures, which isnt that great because you can run other choices to deal with creatures such as Engineered Explosives , pyroclasm,starstorm ,or if you want to get janky overburden and propaganda. that would allow you a better mana base and more stablitiy as well as consistency.But hey if you want to run it with white and it works for you more power to you i would however consider altering the deck heavily as i noted above.

Pyroclasm?  Propoganda?  Umm...  NO!  Swords to Plowshares is, and has always been, one of the best creature removal spells in the entire game. 
1. It's 1 white mana
2. It fits on my Isochron Scepter
3. I can wish for it
4. It's an instant.
5. It removes the creature from the game
6. It removes almost every creature in MTG.  Not many can avoid it.
7. In a pinch, you can stay alive by plowing your own creature (sure it's Janky, I've done it though)

I already HAVE better cards for removing creatures.

Balance?  How about the strongest white card ever printed in Magic?  Yeah, I like it just fine.

oh and to hop on the band wagon, time walk is broken, in thsi game getting more than your opponent of any resource ( turns cards life threats mana you name it) is really good and can win games. Time walk undeniabliy gives you more than your opponent and card games are resource wars, take what you can get when you can get it.

Enough of this, it's getting stupid.  I already told you guys that I normally have it main deck games 2 and 3.  I always seem to be JUST FINE with wishing for it, then casting it.  I have played the deck like this AGAINST the current strong net decks and it works GREAT just like it is!

If you have something new to add to the Burning Wish--Time walk discussion, please do.  But enough of repeating the same comments.  I heard them, I disagree, it's entirely my right to disagree, move on.

[Eandori]

I just can't stand to not respond to some of these comments and flawed logic...

Time Walk makes all of your future turns happen sooner, much like a Mox does, and hopefully you agree that Moxen are good.

NO!  IT'S NOT LIKE A MOX!
If a mox get's counterspelled, then you lose a mana source, he loses a counter, you still have 2 mana untapped.  If the time walk gets countered, you lose your next turn land drop, and you are tapped out.  NOT GOOD.  If he mana drained your time walk, he probably has access to 4-5 mana next turn, ALONG with you being tapped out.  AGAIN, NOT GOOD.

Playing a first turn land, mox, mox Tinker is just as good as going first turn land, mox, Walk, untap, land, Tinker.

Only from a perspective.

-You had to tap out to cast that walk.
-Casting it early means you can't cast it later when Time Walk is more powerfull.
-All things being equal (assuming they were) I would rather have my "tinkered" artifact in play AND the Time Walk in my deck.  Not in the graveyard.

Think of Time Walk as your 6th Mox, except later on it will produce far more than 1 mana

So we agree the later the game, the better Time Walk gets.  Yep.  Again, I cast it JUST FINE later because I have more mana later.

it cantrips which a Mox cannot do.

Not the way YOU are talking about using it.  Land, mox, walk, untap, land.  That is not a cantrip, you basically traded that Time Walk for a land.  That time walk might as well been a mox in that comparison. 

Time Walk lets you play a 59 card deck.

Exactly like my Abeyance does, except I draw cards off it while shutting down my opponent when it's on a scepter.  Again, I STILL USE the time walk.  Just not main deck on game 1. 

Brainstorms on top of that let you play a 55 card deck.  There is no reason not to play Time Walk when thinking of it in that sense.

Yes there is, the reason is that Time Walk does not always win you the game.  Simple as that.  I refuse to always think of it in that sense because that's NOT always the situation.  Like I already said, I have won games because I was able to wish for the balance or twist.

Just because Force of Will and Brainstorm are better than Time Walk doesn't mean that you shouldn't play with Time Walk.

It means exactly that, if moving the time walk into the deck means moving "better" cards out.  Doesn't it?

Abeyance was made as an imitation of Time Walk that doesn't let you untap, doesn't get an extra attack phase, and doesn't get another land drop, yet you still play that card.

Check your history.

Abeyance was never intended by developers to be the "white time walk."   It only became that AFTER it was printed because the ruling on tapping a mana source still counted as an activation cost was in effect.  After Abeyance was printed and people were using it to effectively Time walk, THAT is when the ruling for mana sources being tapped do not count as activation costs came into play.  It was ABEYANCE that forced that change.

I don't intend for the Abeyance to work like a time walk.  I intend for it to draw me a card, and to SHUT DOWN decks that must cast spells on their own turn.  They untap and do things thinking they can go right ahead and play activated abilities and cast instants/sorceries.  But I suprise them and they get Abeyanced.  The element of suprise is what that card is all about for me.  If I Abeyance my opponent on his upkeep, and he then moves ahead and casts a creature or artifact.  You would state that as a bad aspect of the Abeyance versus the Orim's Chant right?  Well what if I WANTED him to try to cast something after he got Abeyanced?  Consider this...  If you get Abeyanced, and you cast an Enchantment, Creature, Artifact, then I can respond and counter it, plow it, disenchant it, etc.  Anything I want, and you CANNOT respond to me.  Because you got Abeyanced.

Or what if I really want to cast anything I want during my turn?  Had I cast a time walk, I still must get past my opponents wall of counterspells.  Meaning I lose many cards from hand until I get what I want into play.  But if I cast Abeyance on him, he MUST counter it, or I can do any damn thing I want and he CANNOT have ANY response until his next turn.  That... wins games.  I can force his counter with the Abeyance very well.

[crazynlazy]

If the time walk gets countered, you lose your next turn land drop, and you are tapped out.  NOT GOOD.  If he mana drained your time walk, he probably has access to 4-5 mana next turn, ALONG with you being tapped out.  AGAIN, NOT GOOD.

The same goes for burning wish. except when you play burning wish on your first or second turn (and it should be played ASAP because otherwise it's dead and you are holding 6 cards) they will have another turn to find a counter for walk, unless you had 4 mana on the first turn in which case you should play something better like a thirst or a tinker.

[Jacob Orlove]

Just because Force of Will and Brainstorm are better than Time Walk doesn't mean that you shouldn't play with Time Walk.

It means exactly that, if moving the time walk into the deck means moving "better" cards out.  Doesn't it?

You're taking my quote massively out of context. I said that Desire is more powerful than Time Walk too, didn't I? But you don't run that, even though it's one of the most powerful cards in the entire game.

You have to look at how good a powerful card is in your deck, and compare it to what you'd cut for it. You do not have to cut Burning Wish to fit in Time Walk. You could easily cut an Intuition, an Abeyance, or something else. Then you could do plays like early walk, will, walk, wish, walk.

Also, your sideboard contains a lot of random suboptimal cards, apparently just because they can go on a scepter. And yet, you don't run even a single Fire/Ice anywhere, and that card is better than pretty much any non-Ancestral Recall spell on a scepter.

[Eandori]

You have to look at how good a powerful card is in your deck, and compare it to what you'd cut for it. You do not have to cut Burning Wish to fit in Time Walk. You could easily cut an Intuition, an Abeyance, or something else. Then you could do plays like early walk, will, walk, wish, walk.

Also, your sideboard contains a lot of random suboptimal cards, apparently just because they can go on a scepter. And yet, you don't run even a single Fire/Ice anywhere, and that card is better than pretty much any non-Ancestral Recall spell on a scepter.

Totally agreed, but that was exactly my point.  The walk fits fine in the sideboard with a wish main board in my deck.  I tried it out like that, I have played tons of games in this setup, and it has not yet burned me.  As in... I have not yet hit a spot where a walk on game 1 would have won the game for me when cast for 1U.

I tried Fire/Ice in this deck, and I just didn't like it here.  I need a "creature killer" that can kill just about any creature.  I need a spell that can easily destroy artifacts and enchantments.  REB's just fit because they are a great sideboard against other control decks, or I can wish for them if I need to win a counter war.

The main thing I would want Fire/Ice for is to kill Opponents Goblin Welders.  But most of the time I would rather plow them so I don't see them again anyways.  Fire/Ice does not do much against Juggernaut/Spirit of the Night/Platinum Angel/River Boa/Masticore/Karn/Pentavus/Akroma/Darksteel Colossus/Sundering Titan etc.

[Eandori]

The same goes for burning wish. except when you play burning wish on your first or second turn (and it should be played ASAP because otherwise it's dead and you are holding 6 cards) they will have another turn to find a counter for walk, unless you had 4 mana on the first turn in which case you should play something better like a thirst or a tinker.

I don't want to play the wish ASAP.  That's not how I built my deck to run.

Basically, it's a control slaver deck with a few different tricks and 3 "answer grabbers" in the main deck.  The 3 wishes are meant to grab whatever card I need to get me out of a sticky situation.  Sure it may have been great to Time Walk on turn 3, but if I can bleed counters from my opponent and get all his creatures on the table, then toss a balance, I will probably win.  There is a difference between a "dead" card with one function, and a "dead" card that can become your Ace.   A Time Walk in your hand when your are staring at a 3 counter Smokestack, and a Tangle Wire sucks.  But a balance may pull you out of the fire.  I hold my wishes until just the right answer at just the right time will really give me the advantage I want.

That's how I designed the deck to work, and that's how I play it.

Anyways, Brainstorms and Intuition/Tinker/Search Lands really help deal with dead cards in hand.

[Moxlotus]

If a mox get's counterspelled, then you lose a mana source, he loses a counter, you still have 2 mana untapped.  If the time walk gets countered, you lose your next turn land drop, and you are tapped out.  NOT GOOD.  If he mana drained your time walk, he probably has access to 4-5 mana next turn, ALONG with you being tapped out.  AGAIN, NOT GOOD.

Replace Time Walk with ANY SPELL and it works.

However, you also forgot to say that turn 1 Time Walk will get you Mana Drain mana before your opponent does, whether you go first or second-which will put YOU in the position to Mana Drain [insert irrelevant spell] to go off next turn.

Also it is not easy to see how turn 1 Time Walk just wins-because it doesn't just win.  It puts you ahead in order to capitalize later. How does turn 2 Spiketail Hatchling win against Tog a lot?  It doesn't right then, but when you follow it up with a Waste and a Null Rod it puts you in a positition of advantage. 

I already told you guys that I normally have it main deck games 2 and 3.

Then explain it why it is good to main it games 2&3 and NOT main it game 1.  Tell me any reasoning behind it.  "Wish is more versatile", then isn't it games 2 and 3 also?  Why is it bad to have it game 1 but all of a sudden much better games 2 and 3?

An early Time walk is a minor alteration to tempo, but a mid/late game Time Walk, Balance, or Timetwister can entirely swing the tide of the game.

Turn 1 Time Walk is the pinnacle of tempo.

Also, a turn 1 Balance/Twist after dumping your hand is the best way to maximize Balance or Twister, but decks still run it even though they don't always get those hands.

[argylekilla]

How adversely affect will your mana base be by adding a Boseiju, Who Shelters All? You have already advocated abeyance, and an abeyance cast with Boseiju  is an impressive play. Thinking in terms of a one shot deal, if abeyance is resolved, you have a turn to go balls to the wall and just win.

[CrazyCarl]

Oh man, this thread is amazing.

Alright, now, your logic regarding Time Walk and it's getting countered being a "bad thing" is very true and a valid concern.

Who's forcing you to cast that Time Walk into their Mana Drain?  It's the whole "Blue Blue untapped, casting Sorceries is bad" thing that's been in effect since the beginning of time (1992).  I couldn't care less about everything else in the deck (I made Top 8 at Waterbury with a much worse deck than this featuring 3 Scepters/Stifles/Gorilla Shamans/Deep Analysis/Thirst for Knowledge.  Man that deck was hot.), but not playing Time Walk in your maindeck, if you're going to play it at all, is very, very poor deckbuilding at work.  Casting Burning Wish for Time Walk is fine... after you've removed it with Skeletal Scrying, Recoup or Yawgmoth's Will.

So you're worried about Time Walk getting countered, so that's why you aren't running it.  How is using Burning Wish any different?  Sure, you can do it later in the game, but you're leaving yourself 2 mana less to protect it with.

Also, news flash: Most players won't counter Time Walk.  Countering Time Walk can be one of the best plays you can make at times, but most people completely overlook it. TAKE ADVANTAGE OF YOUR OPPONENTS BEING TERRIBLE!!!

There is only one possible matchup in which Time Walk would possibly be bad for you to play: Stax.  Even then, casting it early on to develop your mana helps protect you whereas Burning Wish will sit in your hand and cry.

As for the rest of your deck... I'm all for innovation, but this looks like the love child of 4CC, Shay Slaver, Gifts, and Parfait.  Reactive control isn't very good anymore.  Being proactive is a good thing.  No bad threats, only bad answers, etc.

I'm glad to see you've come so far since your original list, but it is turning more and more into Shay Slaver with each update of your decklist.  That isn't a bad thing: Slaver is a very good deck.

I guess not playing Demonic Tutor could be argued for... somehow.  It is tempo loss, but so is Burning Wish, and it's only fetching you a card (well, a non-Time Walk card) that will set you back even further.  But really, if you're going to play Time Walk and Demonic Tutor, try cutting at least an Abeyance, and if not both, Fact or Fiction.  You have no card drawing spells to fetch with Cunning Wish, and providing one increases the value of the card more than you'd believe.

Oh, Moat... if you've got it, try The Abyss.  That card was so hot back in the day.  Or even Masticore: The Moat on wheels.

[Sauron]

Not playing Time Walk in Slaver? Whisky tango foxtrot? I can't even being to describe how good Walk is in Slaver, the number of times I've Walked to get an effectively Hasted Welder is ridiculous.

[CrazyCarl]

Oh, you could also play Ring of Ma'Ruf instead of Cunning Wish.  It's more awesome.

And Panoptic Mirror:  Put Burning Wish on it, fetch your Time Walk, then go infinite!

[Eandori]

Alright CrazyCarl, now that last reply had some real meat.  I liked it alot. 

Alright, now, your logic regarding Time Walk and it's getting countered being a "bad thing" is very true and a valid concern.

Thanks.

Who's forcing you to cast that Time Walk into their Mana Drain?  It's the whole "Blue Blue untapped, casting Sorceries is bad" thing that's been in effect since the beginning of time (1992).  I couldn't care less about everything else in the deck (I made Top 8 at Waterbury with a much worse deck than this featuring 3 Scepters/Stifles/Gorilla Shamans/Deep Analysis/Thirst for Knowledge.  Man that deck was hot.), but not playing Time Walk in your maindeck, if you're going to play it at all, is very, very poor deckbuilding at work.  Casting Burning Wish for Time Walk is fine... after you've removed it with Skeletal Scrying, Recoup or Yawgmoth's Will.

I'm trying a few different things here.  Putting "answers" in Control Slaver for one thing, using the Isochron Scepters for another, and putting the Time Walk SB and Wish main board.  That last decision hurts one thing, the first couple of turns in game 1.  Yes I know that's when slaver is "weak" but please consider, that is what I built my deck for!!!

Remember, you can either out-race your opponent, or you can have the ability to stop what he does.  Both of those will move you into a mid or late game where slaver is strong.  From step 1 with this deck I chose the "answer" route for this deck.  The whole deck is built to work around being able to answer what my opponents get into play IF they get it there.  I totally see the point, and I always have about Time Walk cast early giving you tempo that *might* eventually win the game.  Not news to me, I've played magic since Alliances came out and besides a 5 year break from it, Vintage is what I always got into.  I totally agree that I want to increase my tempo early game.  But a Time walk cast a bit later, when the game balance is on the edge of a knife normally puts me just enough ahead to win.

I play this deck less agressively then the standard version of Control Slaver.  No tutors, no duress, more answers and control leads me to that.  Truth be told, it's my most solid playstyle so I want a deck that supports it.  What I like about this deck is I can play it a bit like standard control decks while getting cards I want into play, into the GY etc.  Then when the stage is set, I slaver lock them and just win.  I'm really not suprised that this deck appears to be like a version of 4CC to you guys.  That's my playstyle.  BTW, back before I took my first break from Vintage, I actually played a 1:1 against Brian Weissman.  We were both using "The Deck."  We both had Beta power 9, dual lands, etc.  But his deck was unsleeved.  Damndest thing I have ever witnessed in MTG unsleeved beta?!?  This was around Weatherlight time frame.  He won of course, but it wasn't easy

So you're worried about Time Walk getting countered, so that's why you aren't running it.  How is using Burning Wish any different?  Sure, you can do it later in the game, but you're leaving yourself 2 mana less to protect it with.

That's true, I am 2 mana down to protect the walk with in game 1.  It was a sacrifice I made to have my deck more well rounded in the first game.  Essentially, I gave up some lethal speed to stabilize the deck against a wider range of other decks.  That was pretty much the entire thought when creating the main deck.  This especially makes sense in my area, where my local Type 1, 13 proxy tournament might yeild a tried and true net-deck, a kobold deck, a stasis deck, you never know what you are gonna see.

Also, news flash: Most players won't counter Time Walk.  Countering Time Walk can be one of the best plays you can make at times, but most people completely overlook it. TAKE ADVANTAGE OF YOUR OPPONENTS BEING TERRIBLE!!!

Oh I do.  I also rely on my opponents under-estimating the value of certain cards.  People laugh at my Abeyance until they get nailed with it and realize that I just won by casting it.

There is only one possible matchup in which Time Walk would possibly be bad for you to play: Stax.  Even then, casting it early on to develop your mana helps protect you whereas Burning Wish will sit in your hand and cry.

Well, there's more then just that.  Against stasis decks, some Abyss type decks, black vise on you with cards in hand, etc.  There are other times.  But yeah, it's especially bad against stax.  Stax is a REALLY hard match up for Control Slaver.  I need my sideboard for that deck, so game 1 is usually a wash anyways.

As for the rest of your deck... I'm all for innovation, but this looks like the love child of 4CC, Shay Slaver, Gifts, and Parfait.  Reactive control isn't very good anymore.  Being proactive is a good thing.  No bad threats, only bad answers, etc.

I'm not quite willing to say that.  I think the meta game shifts balance back and forth.  How many times over the years have control decks gone in and out of power?  It changes when the card pool increases, when stuff is restricted, based on what deck is dominant in your area, and it also changes when players learn about new combo's.  Even if Control is low right now, I fully believe it will come back.  Personally, I think control is still strong but there are a few net decks out there which work well against it and the problem is that everybody plays those decks.  So the reaction is that my deck alters as I go to strengthen against the current meta.

I'm glad to see you've come so far since your original list, but it is turning more and more into Shay Slaver with each update of your decklist.  That isn't a bad thing: Slaver is a very good deck.

Even though it looks more like Shay Slaver, it really plays more like a defensive control deck until it locks.  Shay Slaver (standard Control Slaver) is built and plays much more aggresively then my deck.

I guess not playing Demonic Tutor could be argued for... somehow.  It is tempo loss, but so is Burning Wish, and it's only fetching you a card (well, a non-Time Walk card) that will set you back even further.  But really, if you're going to play Time Walk and Demonic Tutor, try cutting at least an Abeyance, and if not both, Fact or Fiction.

A slight loss of temp is ok, based on how this deck is built to work.  Casting Intuition normally means all I need is 1 welder in play and I can lock my opponent. 

You have no card drawing spells to fetch with Cunning Wish, and providing one increases the value of the card more than you'd believe.

Funny you mention that, it's the EXACT thing I'm trying to figure out right now.  I like the control spells in my sideboard, but I do want some Instant based draw there.  That is where my attention currently is, looking for the perfect sideboard card that would give me draw and be a good switch for my current sideboard cards.

Oh, Moat... if you've got it, try The Abyss.  That card was so hot back in the day.  Or even Masticore: The Moat on wheels.

Well, I can see both having their points.  But Moat will simply slam the door on some decks while the Abyss will let them continue to pound me as long as they have other creatures.  Moat helps big time against goblin decks, weenie decks, fish, lots of ground based stuff.  Sure some decks can get around moat, but if it gives me 3 turns more to set up my lock, I will probably win.