When to counter?

[Khahan]

There is a gameplay/strategy question I've been struggling with recently.  I've only recently started really thinking aobut T1 competitive seriously, so my play testing is limited at this point. I'm curious what some more experienced players think about countering tutor and draw spells.

Do you counter a tutor/draw spell or do you counter what they've tutored for or drawn?

Obviously, there are some specific instances (for example Thirst for Knowledge in just about any welder/tinker based deck) where you stop the draw the spell.  I'm not talking about those.

I'm talking about the standard gameplay, I've got this Ancestral Recall in my hand, so I'll cast it to refill my hand type situations.
Or the 'I've been struggling to find my win condition, but here is Demonic Tutor.'

I typically will let the draw/tutor resolve (unless something in the game state tells me otherwise), going under the theory that its a 2:1.  They demonic tutored for a yawg's win. I counter the yawgs will. Effectively, they wasted the tutor since they lost the card they were going for.

I also base it on the theory that if I use my counter on the tutor, they can draw the card they want later on still.


So I'm asking this question from 2 perspectives:
1) The cards they are tutoring for or drawing will directly affect the win (for example, getting yawg's will in hand). Your opponent has the upper  hand and is ready to go for the kill.
Do you counter the tutor and make them keep digging, or do you let the tutor resolve and then counter their win?


2) You've either got control of the gamestate or its a balanced game state and you're hoping for a top deck soon. Your opponent tutors and you don't really know what card he may grab that would drastically change the game state (maybe you know he's missing both dark ritual and yawg's will, so simply tutoring for 1 will not change anything yet. Or the chances of him drawing both of those would be so minimal).
Again, do you counter the tutor and make him keep digging to unbalance the game state, or do you let him get that piece and deal with it later?


What I'm not talking about is the draws spells such as TFK where they deck will benefit merely from resolving the spell.

And please note: Those examples are purely illustrative. Please do not fixate on them and give me a disseration on the technical merits or demerits of those specific situations. I'm just illustrating some generic game circumstances to try and clarify what I'm asking.

My own thoughts on this actually led to me asking the question as opposed to answering it for myself.

1)  On one hand I see where you stop the tutor. If the game state is in their favor, they may take their win condition and hold it for a turn or two to get the extra counterspell back up needed to protect the win.
On the other hand, if you are successful in the counter war and counter their win condition (especially in a "1 of" case like Yawgs Will, but not so much in the case of a deck like Oath where they have back up copies), they may not be able to recover. So letting them tutor to get that card and stopping that card would be more beneficial.  In this case I think I'd be more inclined to try and stop the win directly.

2) In a balanced game state (or game state in your favor), you can stop the tutor to make them keep digging. This gives you time to build your own game state and stops them from taking control.
Or, if you let the tutor go, you can go for the "W" in the counter war, stop their win (or lock, maybe they are grabbing crucible to go w/ stripmine) and weaken their position even further by denying a piece of their lock/combo/win.
I think in this state, I would stop the tutor and make them keep digging.  If you've got the upper hand, flex your might and stop them at every turn.


Of course, there is a third option to consider: Nobody has given this any thought because its too random of a situation and there is really no reliable strategy which has been developed over the years to examine.

[Jacob Orlove]

You left out one very crucial element: tutoring for land, which cannot be countered. If you're playing a control mirror, and they cast Demonic or Vampiric Tutor with a full grip, you know Library of Alexandria is coming out. More recently, if they have anything decent in hand, they can grab Boseiju, Who Enjoys Being Misspelled, and invalidate all your countermagic. While tutoring up a library is very rare, I expect Boseiju to become a much more common target. The real irony is that if your opponent has one out, tutoring up yours is the easiest way to kill it.

Sometimes it'll be more obvious, though. A Stax deck that casts Crop Rotation with Crucible of Worlds on the table is going for Strip Mine, so counter if you need to.

Gifts Ungiven also throws a wrench into the works, because it can tutor up multiple cards against your lone counter. Duress, Recoup, Tinker, Yawgmoth's Will is bad times if they have plenty of mana, and if they don't then Duress can become Black Lotus.

Usually countering the tutor is wrong, but it's not a hard and fast rule. Likewise, usually countering their draw spells is right, but again, that's not always the case.

[Kowal]

Cunning Wish can be dangerous to allow resolve, since it can fetch things that try more than once like Coffin Purge or Brain Freeze.

Similarly, decks with Deep Analysis can fetch card draw that might as well be uncounterable.  This is also dangerous.

Control Slaver can Demonic for Mindslaver, and hardcast it.  At this point, its likely they have a welder in case you do have a counter.

Most of the time tutors get cheaper cards (wish gets 1cc answers, demonic/merchant scroll get ancestral) so often you can use Mana Drain to build tempo and generate mana in these situations.

[Conan_barberarn]

Plus, if their tutor is a sorcery (demonic), you're probably better off countering it cause they can get an instant and play it when you don't have they proper resourcess to counter (not mana up). I avoid countering mystical and vampiric, since it's card disadvantage and atleast mystical has to fetch a sorcery which I can counter.

/Gustav

[Gort32]

You have to take a few things into consideration, mostly that your opponent isn't stupid.  If you are playing a control deck, he knows it and will be tutoring for a card that he is confident that he is going to be able to play.  He's not going to tutor right into your counter wall.

Even then, it's still a tough judgement call.  Look at it this way - your oppenent has a finite amount of mana.  He taps 2 for a Demonic Tutor during his turn.  You counter the tutor, he counters back, small counter war commences, and assume that he wins.  He most likely expended his resources for that turn and you put him down a turn.  That's a big deal.  Heck - if you drain his Tutor and he has to force your drain, you just came out ahead.  It's still a tough call though and it takes a lot of experience to decide what to do.  As Jacob said, tutoring for a land can be unplesant.  Bottom line, if he's tutoring, assume that he knows what he is doing and react accordingly.  If you feel that you can handle whatever he is tutoring for (ie, you have both counterpells AND answers [StP, Disenchant, wasteland, whatever), then you might be able to use the situation to your advantage.  Either way it is likely to be a game-altering action whenever anyone tutors.

The instant tutors are MUCH harder to work around as they don't have to expend resources during his turn for them.  I can't recall any time that I have countered an instant tutor, but I know in hindsight that it would've won me more than one game if I had.

Draw spells are bad.  Very rarely should you let these go through as he just got several potential counterspell targets while you have not drawn any additional counters/answers.  Keep this up and he's going to win.

[Outlaw]

Plus, if their tutor is a sorcery (demonic), you're probably better off countering it cause they can get an instant and play it when you don't have they proper resourcess to counter (not mana up). I avoid countering mystical and vampiric, since it's card disadvantage and atleast mystical has to fetch a sorcery which I can counter.

/Gustav

This was one of the worst posts that I have ever seen.  First off, you have to read your opponent, if you know that they are tutoring for tolarian / library / boseiju / strip mine then counter the tuto, but normally you let demonic resolve to go for the 2:1r. Yes they can get an instant and play it when you dont have the proper resources to counter, but why would a good player play in such a way?  Its obvious that you do not counter mystical and vampiric because it causes them to expell a card just to get one the next time they draw, which is usual ly a discard outlet (thirst for knowledge), ancestral recall, time walk, or yawgmoth's will.  Knowing when to counter is really based on the state of the game and what deck your opponent is playing and also what you are playing, if you are playing a mana intensive drain deck (gifts belcher for example) then countering tutors can be crucial to set up your own game plan.   

[Freelancer]

Plus, if their tutor is a sorcery (demonic), you're probably better off countering it cause they can get an instant and play it when you don't have they proper resourcess to counter (not mana up). I avoid countering mystical and vampiric, since it's card disadvantage and atleast mystical has to fetch a sorcery which I can counter.

/Gustav

Actually mystical can also fetch instants.

The way I look at it:
1) Is the card they will possibly fetch uncounterable (strip-boseiju-library-dart-desire-tendrills) than counter the tutor
2) Is he low on mana at the moment (ie. no drain up) than counter the tutor since the fetched card might be better protected later on
3) Can I handle whatever instant they may fetch (ie. can I counter it or deal with it if it resolves)
4) If its a mystical I almost always let it resolve (card disadvantage) sinds it can't a land vamp. depends on points above
5) Do I need the mana from mana drain if I counter the tutor, if so wich will cost more mana the tutor or the tutored card.
6) In most other situations I counter the tutored card and not the tutor

This is about the checklist that I go past in my mind. Its all about the situation your in, I might encounter one where I need to add another point to this list. But only testing (oh how important) can reveal that.

I counter most draw when I'm playing a control orientated deck, however if I'm playing TPS and I'm planning to win next turn I only care about a small number off cards. Again situation based, nobody can really tell you when to counter or not. You have to learn by trial and error.

[Matt]

A situation that hasn't been sufficiently covered yet: if the tutor costs more than the card they're getting, you may want to counter it, because you might be able to win a counterwar over the tutor that you couldn't over the target. You don't get this much in type one, where Demonic Tutor is the most expensive played, but in other formats cards like Diabolic Tutor become playable and it may be much, much easier for them to resolve a Nantuko Shade than a 4cc tutor-for-shade.

This kind of falls under the "resources to counter" argument but it merits deeper study.

[Saucemaster]

One point that's been brought up but doesn't seem to have gathered much attention: especially in control mirrors, and depending on the likelihood of a Duress, a lot of players will tutor for something that they have no intention of playing for a couple of turns, simply because it maximizes their mana usage for the turn and leaves them more mana in a later turn with which to fight over the spell they've tutored up.   This used to be particularly true with, say, Cunning Wish for REB (though that's nowhere near as common a play as it used to be back in the days of Tog mirrors).  Generally speaking, if it's relatively early in the game and you're both still low on mana, and you think your opponent is getting something you think he might be intending to slowplay, it's frequently correct to counter the tutor instead of the card he's tutoring for.  In part this is for the same reason your opponent is using the tutor now, as opposed to later--it maximizes your mana now, when (since you're sitting there with UU up) you're not using it.  Plus, you have more time to draw further counters later.

And Kowal's point about the tutored-for spell often costing less than the tutor is a very good one when you're deciding whether to Drain the spell or not.  Cunning Wish is a juicy, juicy Drain target if you have reason to believe you're not going to get wrecked when your opponent untaps.

As for countering draw spells, that is highly situational.  All other things being equal, you'd rather Ancestral Recall didn't resolve.  But what's the game state like?  Does your opponent have to resolve one SPECIFIC spell to win the game?  If so, can you effectively fight over it?  What's your role in the matchup, beatdown or control?  There are a million variables here.  I know that I personally LOVE to cast draw spells with five or six cards in hand just to use them as instant-speed Duresses to clear the way for a bomb on my mainphase (usually with more mana available to protect it than my opponent has to stop it).  Again, mana and tempo are huge.  If your opponent has to resolve a limited number of specific cards to win the game, you can frequently hold off on countering the draw, especially if they're countering yours.  This is kind of the flipside of the "I'll cast my Ancestral right in the middle of a counter war to make sure it resolves or becomes a Duress" coin.

NOT AN EDIT (love that new "warning" screen!): Matt just covered some of what I was trying to say.

[Rico Suave]

NOT AN EDIT (love that new "warning" screen!): Matt just covered some of what I was trying to say.

I got that exact same thing while typing up a response and you replied.  SO good.

Anyway, I saw something I wanted to comment on. 

Yes they can get an instant and play it when you dont have the proper resources to counter, but why would a good player play in such a way?

I thought getting important spells to resolve is a sign of a good player.  One of my most common Tutor targets is Ancestral Recall, and if I have that in hand then I'm going to try and resolve that anyway I can.  If that means holding on to it during all of my opponent's turn and waiting for them to give me an opening, then I'll do that. 

Back on topic, between Boseiju, LoA, Mind's Desire, Tendrils of Agony, Brain Freeze, Recoup, Lava Dart, Mindslaver, and many other cards I'm not listing, Demonic Tutor can find a LOT of cards that beat a single counter.  I have been finding myself Draining Demonic Tutor a lot more lately, although I don't Force it unless I know they're going to find something my Force can't handle. 

This is also why I don't cast Demonic Tutor early on.  An early D.Tutor meets a counter, whereas a late one produces Will.

[Vegeta2711]

Countering a sorcery speed tutor is far easier than the instant speed variety, purely because I can gauge how much the player has left resource-wise. If he plays Demonic Tutor during his mainphase and only has 1-2 mana left over, I'm typically not going to counter it if I know I can either keep his mana in check or simply outdraw him while he's tutoring for answers / bombs. If I'm unsure, then I'll counter the DT to make sure nothing bad happens or at least drain the rest of his mana and another card out of his hand to counter back. Sometimes countering the tutor actually forces some people to overcommit resources and cards to resolving a tutor, once they play it, they feel duty bound to stay with it until the end. The same goes with mainphase draw (Especially cast off Mana Drain) in many cases.

Instant speed tutors tend to make analysis of what they're going to search for a lot easier, since they have limited targets and many are reveal, so it's not like you lack information. Many times if you have a good idea of the gamestate, you can figure out one or two optimal targets and then make the decision if countering is worth it or not. With Intuition this is one of the most intresting decisions on the whole, since 90% of the time I can accurately put them on what they'll tutor for based on the gamestate. Many times it's the proper decision to counter the Intuition because it either gives them a cheaper bomb than the tutor or it'll be hard to stop (Welder in play, Crucible in play, etc). But if I know they basically have to go for AK or 3 Welders or something, then it becomes far easier to just let it go and let them thin the deck of valuable resources.

A major key many people forget when running 'Pay X mana' counterspells is how to force the opponent to overcommit their resources to a spell. A Daze on a mainphase tutor or draw spell when the opponent only has UU or U open can be huge. You lose a card, but you'll basically  limit how many options they have on your turn. Also you have to weigh if it could be more valuable simply casting your own instant in response to the one they cast. It leaves them wide-open many times, except for Force of Will, so it's not incredibly hard to stick them in a difficult decision. Let their own spell resolve or stop yours.

On a side-note, I absolutely love the quality of many of the replies so far. Best thread in a while guys.

[orgcandman]

I'm definately into more of the assessing which tutor in which deck. Something like 3/4 color control casting mystical, there are quite a few targets they're going for, and it's not always readily apparent which. However, something like intuition in CS, it's almost immediately apparent which cards they're going for, IE: "Do they have welder on the board? Do they have an ak in the yard? Are they going for the instant win?"

That having been said, I take a few approaches depending on the deck I'm playing. Please remember these aren't hard-and-fast rules, but more generalizations.

When I'm playing aggro-control I'll try and stay true to the resource-denial theme, and draw them into over committing to the tutor. The reason is, I really don't care what bomb they're tutoring for, in general, just that they can't use it on that turn, or my turn. This will give me (hopefully) enough time to answer it, or prepare for it. In general, aggro-control like madness can afford to get into a counter war over the opponent's tutor to buy enough time to seal the deal with a mongrel. Fish, on the other hand really doesn't have the men to seal the deal. As such, it may be highly dependant on game state. In general though, for aggro-control forcing the opponent to over-commit is how you win.

When playing pure control, however, I think more about what card would be tutored for, and whether or not it will give me more mana drain mana than just getting the tutor. In general, letting the tutor resolve and fighting over the subsequent spell gives you two things:
 1) 2-for-1 if you win
 2) potential for more mana on your mainphase
 3) "1-less bomb" (although this isn't as true, it's still a contributing factor)

Also, I'd like to explore more of what Matt said with:

if the tutor costs more than the card they're getting, you may want to counter it, because you might be able to win a counterwar over the tutor that you couldn't over the target.

This seems to be saying that, (and please Matt correct me if I'm wrong) if a tutor costs 2U, and the card it's fetching costs R, you'd have an easier time fighting with the opponent over 2U than over R. I will agree that in some cases, it is easier, but also I would like to add that in some cases it's actually beneficial to let your opponent fetch a cheap solution to lull them into a false sense of security and over commit, using it right away by walking into daze or mana leak. It's a very interesting topic though, and I'd like to have more discussion on what the correct types of plays for these situations are.

As has been said before, and I'll echo it, it's very dependant on game state, what you're running and what you perceive your opponent will be going for.

Aaron

PS: this new forum software is awesome sauce. Props to the TMD admins, and the Simple Machines Forums team

[Khahan]

Wow, a lot of great information here to digest in a few posts.  Thank you all. I was little worried this was too general of a situation to really answer.

So what I'm gathering is that most people tend not to counter the tutor as a general rule of thumb. However, there are still a ton of gameplay scenarios that may lead you to counter the tutor.

Draw spells you typically want to counter if possible.

I'm going to have re-read this whole thread a few times to get a handle on the info presented and try to keep it in mind during gameplay.  Not an easy question and apparently its not easily answered. Thank you all.

[Matt]

This seems to be saying that, (and please Matt correct me if I'm wrong) if a tutor costs 2U, and the card it's fetching costs R, you'd have an easier time fighting with the opponent over 2U than over R. I will agree that in some cases, it is easier, but also I would like to add that in some cases it's actually beneficial to let your opponent fetch a cheap solution to lull them into a false sense of security and over commit, using it right away by walking into daze or mana leak. It's a very interesting topic though, and I'd like to have more discussion on what the correct types of plays for these situations are.

That is exactly what I'm saying, and something Saucemaster talked a bit about. I'm not sure I see the situation you're talking about though, could you give an example?

In the particular situation of Wish-for-REB, you may want to let them do that, then hit them with a nonblue bomb while they have one fewer blue card in hand - if you think they've turned their hand from FoW+Wish into FoW+REB, it would be a good time to try Mind Twist or Mindslaver or even YWill. This is dependent on two things: do you have a nonblue bomb, and do you think that REB is their only counter? Because if you play, say, a Twist, and they counter, and you counter back, suddenly their REB becomes relevant (targeting your counter).

[MisterShark]

Specific example:
If you are sitting across from me playing Affinity, counter the tutor.  If I get my Tolarian Academy on the board, it's all over generally.

[Mixing Mike]

Another example.

I was on the play, and drop Island go.  Brassman plays Fetch go.  On my next turn I drop a land and play Merchant Scroll.  It was obvious that I was going for Ancestral Recall.  He opted to ReB my Merchant Scroll, figuring that during my next turn, he could only counter one spell with his Mana Drain, and if I had Ancestral, I could play two, getting one to resolve.  This allowed him to deal with both my Ancestral and whatever the next spell I played over the course of two turns.  The fact that he ReB's my Merchant Scroll actually ended up winning him the game, and most likely the match.  He continued on to win the tournament.

I wanted to bring this up because there is NEVER a cut and dry time to counter.  Sometimes I'll play something with UU open, making them Force of Will it.  I then proceed to Mana Drain their Force and win the game with the huge tempo boost.

[Draven]

Generally, I will not counter a tutor. If I my opponant is in top deck mode, I usually will becasue it is better to just continue to shut them down. And like people said, there are uncounterable things they can tutor and wreck you with. Intuition, you usually counter because the stuff going in the yard is just as dangerous as the card they get in htere hand. Same for Gifts now days.

As for countering draw, the draw is really dependent on the game state. If someone first turn A.Recalls, I usually won't Force becasue in Vintage, there are so many bombs that can hit turn one, most of the time an A.Recall is a probe spell. Now I know everyone just errupted in mass hysteria because of I just said A.Recall is a probe spell. Don't misunderstand me. I would much rather my opponant resolve an A.Recall first turn than a Welder, TriniSphere (not so much anymore, but you get the point), or any other bomb. Just to finish my point, A.Recall is super powerful, earth shattering etc, etc at nausium, but there are other equally strong if not stronger threats.

As for late game draw spells, if I can counter them, I usually do, becasue the late game, if someone can get a 3-4 card swing, it will usually give them the game.

Those are just my general ideas. Every Vintage deck I have played as been a Mana Drain deck, so I am pretty used to making the counter decision 400+ times a day at a tournament.

Later...

PS: I just need to re-itterate that I am not discounting the power of A.Recall. I just don't want to get flamed out because I suggested there might be other things worth countering over A.Recall.

[Rico Suave]

There are of course things aside from Ancestral Recall that are worth countering, but a first turn AR is definitely something I would Force.  If you don't counter it, odds are they probably drew Goblin Welder off those 3 cards and maybe even a counter to go with it.  Or they drew a 2nd land to power out all the spells in their hand.  Or maybe they drew Mox Jet and Duress to rob your counter. 

I don't mean to flame you.  Usually I'm just accustomed to "oh, he cast first turn AR. I guess I lose."  There's a difference between saving your counters and letting them have 3 cards.  I've seen a lot of people who cast first turn AR and eventually resolve a bomb like Will/Tinker.  What won the game?  You'd think Will, but AR paved the way for it to resolve. 

[Kasuras]

As a sidenote: Land Grant is technically speaking a tutor but is usually the right card to counter versus meandeck tendrils, esspecially since you can see their hand and just see what's in there so you can judge it. Countering the Land Grant will put them back quite some  turns. Of course, good players will usually mulligan a hand with only Land Grant as their manasource but even with more sources than just Land Grant: countering it is still quite a good play.

[Ivantheterrible]

but normally you let demonic resolve to go for the 2:1

Just a minor nitpick becuase a few people have said this. 2:1 applies to card advantage, the idea being you use one card in hand or on the board to deal with 2. Cards in  someones deck are not part of the gamestate and therfor can't be considered in the theiors of card advantage. Lets say both you and your opponet have 5 cards in hand. In one case you play hymn to tourach going down to 4 cards in hand. When it resolves your opponet discards 2 cards going down to 3 cards in hand. You know have card advantage. In another case your opponet has 5 cards in hand as do you but this time the play demonic tutor. After casting tutor they go down to 4 cards but upon its resolution they will again have 5 cards in hand. At that point they attempt to resolve their spell and you go to counter it. Assuming everything goes according to plan you each know have 4 cards in hand. No one has seen any card advantage, so you have not actually 2 for 1ed them. What you have done however is gained card quailty. They no longer have access to demonic tutor or Will/Tinker at the expens of a single counter of yours. This  brings me to the question stated above, When to Counter?

Back in the early days of magic this question was a no-brainer. Back when keeper ran the format people would have called you a noob for asking such a question. At that point it was simple, it was black and white. You  always countered the draw spell and you never countered the tutor. I can remember when i was starting out back in early 2002, I was playing a game agianst Steven Hoddlet (a.k.a Grand Inquistor/GI) and i asked him if my demonic tutor resolved or not. He looked at me like I was a bit of an idiot and said "I never counter tutors." At that time that was the law. These days though along with the entire format becoming more complex so too have the rules of engagment.

As has been already mentioned there is a great multitude of cards out their for which you opponet may tutor that you are going to have a hard time dealing with. As far as tutors go it is best to take them on a case by case basis. The first thing to consider is What deck is my opponet playing? If they are playing dragon or C.A. then it might be wise to counter that tutor seeing as how one activation of bazarr might be enough for them to win the game so that even if you do have a stripe/waste it might be totally irrelavent. If your opponet is playing stax and has a crucible in play i would counter that tutor or else your going to be facing down crucible/stip very soon. If your opponet is playing tendrils combo and is already at enough spells and has four mana floating then counter the tutor. In control mirrors it is really hard to know weather or not to counter the tutor. You have to read your opponet and have a firm grasp of the current gamestate. If curcibles in play then its a no-brainer but otherwise you will have to think a bit. I would generally say that if you have a strip or a wasteland and you think they are going to get library/boisugo(there we go again Jacob) then it is best to just use your strip or your waste. That is obvious as far as the later land is concerned but i think its the right call to just waste or stip the library because they will only draw one card, and when was the last time you countered Obsessive Search.

Card drawing is tricky. In the good old days you would always counter it because your opponet getting 3 cards at the price of 1 was card advantage and it was obvious that you wouldn't want your opponet to have card advantage. These days card advantage still wins games but there is also a whole bunch of busted broken cards flying around and sometimes its more important to counter those. Take for exampel a game i was playing a few weeks ago. My opponet had card advantage and had stoped some of my draw spells and just resolved an ak for 6 cards. I am topdecking but i manage to topdeck a tinker and resolve it becuase my opponet had run out of counter magic (well not entirly but he had used alot of it up.) The tinker resolved and i won the game even in the control mirror in the face of his card advantage. Its a tough call becuase if you counter the ancestral they might resolve tinker or will but if you dont counter the ancestral they might draw another bomb and resolve wichever they play second or they might draw counter backup.

Its harder to know what to counter these days then it was back in 2001. You have to consider everything whenever they paly a tutor or a draw spell because if you dont, if you read them worng, if you worry to much, if you dont worry enough then you will counter the wrong spell and that will of theres might just resolve and that wont be good for you. 

[Saucemaster]

I was on the play, and drop Island go.  Brassman plays Fetch go.  On my next turn I drop a land and play Merchant Scroll.  It was obvious that I was going for Ancestral Recall.  He opted to ReB my Merchant Scroll, figuring that during my next turn, he could only counter one spell with his Mana Drain, and if I had Ancestral, I could play two, getting one to resolve.  This allowed him to deal with both my Ancestral and whatever the next spell I played over the course of two turns.  The fact that he ReB's my Merchant Scroll actually ended up winning him the game, and most likely the match.  He continued on to win the tournament.

I'd just like to point out that this is *exactly* the type of situation Matt and I were trying to reference with our posts.  You hit the Merchant Scroll now, it's exactly like fighting over that Ancestral next turn, but with three differences:

1) Your opponent still has an Ancestral Recall in his deck.  Bad, but that's exactly the situation you're in now, right?  So it doesn't actually change the game state at all.

2) You get to use that mana for REB this turn, when you weren't doing anything else with it anyway.

3) Your opponent cannot Drain your counter, so you either a) force them to Force now--which they may not have to next turn--and disrupt their hand while gaining card advantage, or b) you just win the counter war entirely.

Great example.

[Gabethebabe]

Another example.

I was on the play, and drop Island go.  Brassman plays Fetch go.  On my next turn I drop a land and play Merchant Scroll.  It was obvious that I was going for Ancestral Recall.  He opted to ReB my Merchant Scroll, figuring that during my next turn, he could only counter one spell with his Mana Drain, and if I had Ancestral, I could play two, getting one to resolve.  This allowed him to deal with both my Ancestral and whatever the next spell I played over the course of two turns.  The fact that he ReB's my Merchant Scroll actually ended up winning him the game, and most likely the match.  He continued on to win the tournament.

This is really a no-brainer. REB is a conditional counterspell. There is a target. So hit it, before they play something that you can´t hit with REB.

[Malhavoc]

Recently I was playing against tps with a control deck. Unfortunately for me, he got and played Library of Alexandria, and I had no wasteland out. Later he had 7 cards in hand and cast demonic. Usually I would have let it resolve, but countering that left him with only 6 cards, and a duress of mine the turn after left with with 5, keeping him out of the library for a couple of turns, then turning my counterspell in something like "counterspell. Skip your next 2-3 draws". A wasteland then came out and I was able to deal with the library.

[Carthain]

Another example.

I was on the play, and drop Island go.  Brassman plays Fetch go.  On my next turn I drop a land and play Merchant Scroll.  It was obvious that I was going for Ancestral Recall.  He opted to ReB my Merchant Scroll, figuring that during my next turn, he could only counter one spell with his Mana Drain, and if I had Ancestral, I could play two, getting one to resolve.  This allowed him to deal with both my Ancestral and whatever the next spell I played over the course of two turns.  The fact that he ReB's my Merchant Scroll actually ended up winning him the game, and most likely the match.  He continued on to win the tournament.

This is really a no-brainer. REB is a conditional counterspell. There is a target. So hit it, before they play something that you can´t hit with REB.

How is it a no-brainer?  They are casting merchant scroll -- which can only fetch something else that can be countered with REB.

Yes, it was a good play, and apparently the right play, but if it was done later on in the game (say, turn 10 or so), it could no longer be the correct play.

[Rico Suave]

How is it a no-brainer?  They are casting merchant scroll -- which can only fetch something else that can be countered with REB.

The only reason that REB is good is because it costs only 1 mana, as compared to other counters that are either more mana or more costly in terms of pitching cards in hand.

Look at it this way: you're going to counter whatever they fetch.  Instead of spending your first turn doing nothing, you could spend it casting that REB and seize a tempo advantage.  Remember, tempo is the only reason REB is good.  I have cast REB on first turn Brainstorms before just to seize a bit more tempo.

[Mixing Mike]

Wow, I didn't think my post would cause so much talk.  Saucemaster and Matt; I'm glad I was able to illustrate your point.  That was my intended goal.

@Gabethebabe: I think you've misunderstood what I was pointing out because ReB can hit both Merchant Scroll and the Ancestral.  The choice he made was the right play.  He deals with my Ancestral on the turn I play the Scroll, since he won't have out 3 mana to cast both Mana Drain and ReB during my turn.  This was why he ReB-ed my Merchant Scroll.

[andrewpate]

A lot of good points here.  One thing that hasn't really been hit on, though, is threat density in your opponent's deck.  For example, Carlos Ramao won Worlds with the tech that you didn't counter card draw in the Tog mirror, because those Tog decks had only something like 3 Psychatog and 1 Upheaval as far as threats.  The Brazilians figured out that you could let them draw all the cards they wanted and just counter the actual threats, since mana would limit the number of counters they could cast in a turn whether they were holding 4 cards or 7.

To pull this concept to Vintage, suppose you are facing Oath using a deck with substantially more countering powers than it has (e.g., Monoblue, Landstill, something like this).  You might be able to let that AK for 3 resolve, because you know that all you have to do is counter Oath of Druids.  This might not be a good idea all the time, but against some control decks it can make sense.  I used this strategy to beat 4cc decks all day back before Forbidden Orchard was released and I used to hold back my counters for Exalted Angel and Yawgmoth's Will.  I knew that I could hammer away with (uncounterable) manlands all day as long as they never sent any Angel beats into the red.

It all comes back to what Outlaw said:  everything depends on what the game state is and what deck your opponent is playing.  I like to avoid normative claims regarding what to counter (I once even let Yawgmoth's Will resolve, because I knew for certain that he had no way to stop me from hitting his Tendrils of Agony with the Stifle I was holding and I wanted him to go ahead and burn up his graveyard), although I'll agree with most of what people have said here for the most part:  countering Ancestral Recall is generally good, while countering Vampiric Tutor is generally bad.

[Cafe_Cafe]

... The Brazilians figured out that you could let them draw all the cards they wanted and just counter the actual threats...

In fact it was Team Bandana´s idea. The playtest group that included all South America players invited to Worlds.
Romao was the lucky team member who won the title 

[Freelancer]

Well the problem with vintage is that draw often transforms magically into more mana from moxen and lotus, it also insures they don't miss a land drop and that they have the counters to protect themselves long enough to develop there mana base. It also means that when you cast a spell, they will have acces to drain meaning that the mana problems are often over if the spell was expensive enough.

I have however used this tactic before but only in fish and only when I managed to resolve a null rod and when I have some wastelands in hand. Than letting the draw resolve is fine as long as I can keep there mana base down and beatdown with man-lands. This happens primarily against slaver and occasionally against oath and mono-U where they only have a couple off relevant thread (welder-tinker-will or oath or b2b) and are hit quite hard with a null rod. Doesn't happen to often though, but from time to time it comes up and is actually the right strategy.

I don't have a lot off experience though with heavy counter decks like mono-U so I won't comment for them.

[andrewpate]

In fact it was Team Bandana´s idea. The playtest group that included all South America players invited to Worlds.
Romao was the lucky team member who won the title 

Sorry, I knew that Ramao had tested with many Latin American players going into that tournament.  I just know that I've heard reference to "Brazilian School" (countering threats only) and "New England School" (countering draw but not tutors, like the New England Keeper decks from the old days) strategies as far as countermagic goes, so I had assumed that the idea for just countering Psychatog had come from Brazil.  Apologies to any contributing members of Bandana whom I offended.

@Freelancer
Your points are good.  The difference when playing Monoblue isn't that great from Fish, the only difference being that you are messing up their mana with Back to Basics instead of Null Rod.  In general, the permission decks say, "Hey, I have 6 pitch counters and 8 2-mana counters; I'm pretty sure I can win a war over a Yawgmoth's Will."  This is more or less the same as saying, "Hey, I have 4 pitch counters and 4 2-mana counters and a Null Rod in play; I'm pretty sure I can win a war over a Yawgmoth's Will."