boys and girls

[pox_reborn]

http://www.intellectualwhores.com/masterladder.html

[Aeneas]

I saw too much of myself in that.

[Dr. Sylvan]

An oldie but a goodie.

[Hyperion]

so good. and so true.

[Klep]

Ladder theory is cynical garbage for pricks and lonely guys who want to find someone else to blame for their social failings.  If you can't get a girlfriend it's your own damn fault.  Deal with it.

[JuJu]

See. This is why Klep > God.

[Dr. Sylvan]

I'd argue that while it's hardly the beginning and end of the truth, it has many elements that are true. For instance, the first pie chart is a woman's way of rating a man, with a big half of it labelled "Money/Power", and a mere ten percent for "Things Women Say They Care About But Don't". That's not a completely accurate depiction, and obviously varies among individuals, but as a generalization, it makes a worthwhile point. The site's author could go into more detail about how "Money/Power" can also be "The Appearance of Power", but he doesn't because that's not his main point. Similar things apply to the Male Rating System pie chart.

Actually, Klep, the Ladder Theory page does have considerable room for it being the guy's "own damn fault": he's the one who's not projecting enough power and attractiveness to get attention, or he's not shopping for girls on the right segment of the ladder.

Anyone who argues that it's easy to switch from Friend to Boyfriend, though, is delusional. That part of the page is completely true.

[Godder]

Also, what a woman finds attractive changes depending on where they are in their monthly cycle. For a lot of the month, women find 'nice' (pleasant personality, soft looks mainly) attractive, but during their most fertile period (i.e. 'in heat'), they prefer the 'Outlaw Biker', to borrow the Ladder terminology.

That's from studies on human infidelity, so the Ladder has some evidence on its side.

Also, when he gives 10% to the 'things women say they want', that's pretty accurate. Those things may become factors in relationships, but have little to do with a woman wanting to have sex with you in the first place. Bear in mind that what women say they want have little to do with how they actually act in reality, as studies have shown.

[Klep]

That whole "power" crap is just a way to say "don't let your insecurities get the best of you" while trying to blame things on women being superficial.  The whole theory is just a way to contort your own personal problems into something you can blame women for.  No doubt some women are as horrible as the theory says they all are, but so are a lot of guys.  That doesn't make them the rule or even the plurality.  I'm not going to argue this any further, because that would be giving the theory more credence than it deserves. 

[Godder]

The point isn't to blame women for being superficial (people are who they are, and there's no changing it), the point is to blame men for believing women who say they want stuff that they don't actually want. Once men realise why they can't get women, they can get on with improving themselves so that they can.

I never said I was angry that women all want rich guys. Indeed, it gives me an incentive to save money.

That's the point of the ladder: not that women are bad, but that men should stop blaming women and start sorting themselves out.

[Revvik]

as in, become more desirable.  This is a lot more rude than some other stuff I've heard on the subject, but the premise is true.  You can't sit there and listen to her problems and ACT like she wants her friend to act and expect to get anywhere with her.
Although I don't think it's so much "money" and "rich" that are good qualities as much as "confidence" is.

Notice I said confidence, not arrogance - sometimes I should heed my own advice 

This site definitely offers an interesting view.

[MrZuccinniHead]

it's all* true.  I'm learning about attraction in Psychology.  Women desire money because they want security for their offspring.  Men want hotness to have good-looking offspring.

*By all i mean most of it.

[knickers]

Its pretty vague at times.
Its really like calling one of those Psychic hotlines ...
If thats what you want to hear, its what you are going to hear ...

I found myself relating to a lot of it, but its so vague its hard not to find someone who can't compare it.

[crazedpenguinman]

No matter how real or unreal the "theory" may be, you'll have to admit it is good for a laugh.

[knickers]

No matter how real or unreal the "theory" may be, you'll have to admit it is good for a laugh.

heh I wouldn't say that ... didn't you see the veins popping out on Klep's neck?
Feminists ... pfff

[Bram]

Theories on why women do anything are bound to to be faulty.

[Lost In Admiration]

Theories on why women do anything are bound to to be faulty.

This man wins.

[Rico Suave]

This theory is not to blame anyone for anything.  It's to spread his scientific studies and information, so that men and women are better able to recognize why they are attracted to the opposite sex and manipulate the factors to their advantage.  I've seen numerous psychological and sociological studies done on this subject and they all pretty much agree on the same principles, although the presentation of the material differs. 

In my entire life I haven't seen any serious studies on attraction that have come to a different conclusion than the one in the link.  I can imagine the thought of everybody being superficial is shocking to some people and they refuse to accept it or give credence to the theory.  Those people are either rare exceptions, missing variables, or in denial.

[Bram]

<----- rare(?) exception.

I know of several exceptions to the 'rules' posted there. My initial semi-sarcastic comment aside, any theory that attempts to explain human behaviour in such a simplistic fashion is bound to be either incomplete or just plain wrong. The fact that it might be a somewhat decent model for what usually happens, doesn't evelate it to a mechanism or anything.

[Rico Suave]

Of course there are hidden variables not discussed in the link.  For example I saw no reference to something like incest, but that doesn't mean the entire theory is instantly devoid of value. 

You must also take into account that much of what is discussed in the link is referring to a human's natural sex drive and it's very instinctual.  Most of what this theory is talking about is subconscious.  I once thought I knew many exceptions too.  With that in mind, this is not a rule.  It's a theory.  We can't fully predict the weather either, but we can watch patterns and develop theories on what's going to happen.  No, we can't predict it perfectly all the time, though I'd bet that a person living in the Caribbean knows when it's hurricane season. 

If you don't believe this theory, do some research of your own.  There's more out there than just this single site.  Dismissing his results due to your assumption that it's "bound to be faulty" is possibly more harmful than your assumption that you know of several exceptions. 

[Ephraim]

I can't say that I outright reject this site. Its message seems a little bit cynical to me, but I definitely lean to the optimistic side of realism. Of course, I know that the site isn't really all that useful for me. According to ladder theory, I am an anomalous man in search of an anomalous woman. Not that I don't have a ladder, but it has considerably less to do with sexual attraction than it has to do with the so-called 10% "other" category. I've also experienced being shunted to the friends ladder, but then again, it's only once been done to me by a woman with whom I had long-term prospects anyhow, so I can't really say that the friends ladder has done me a whole lot of harm.

And no, the token mention of "religiosity" doesn't cover my objections. Even if sex is still admitted as being a key motivator in my pursuit of a woman, there are a number of conditions that need to be met before the requisite marriage is even possible.

[Freelancer]

The way that I look at it is that everyone behaves like this subconsciously but our mind still has the last word in things, this also incidentally explains the strange cases like Bram.

The power off mankind is that its mind can override the basic instinct.

[Bram]

Thank you. We're not just a sack-o-genes.

[Rico Suave]

The entire point of the theory is that these factors are now conscious and not just subconscious anymore. 

[Jacob Orlove]

A minor nitpick, directed at a number of people: the proper term is "unconscious," not "subconscious".

As for the theory, heh.

[jpmeyer]

Go go gadget Wikipedia!

This theory conflicts with some findings of social psychology. For example, some findings of social psychology demonstrate that men and women are actually equally influenced by physical attraction; men just have a stronger attitude about it that is not reflected in their behavior.

The Ladder Theory was a theory developed by Dallas Lynn which actually started in satire (and still retains some of its humorous nature). It evolved into an actual theory that many people believe

[Bram]

The ladder theory is, for all intents and purposes, a perfect example of a meme.

[Freelancer]

A minor nitpick, directed at a number of people: the proper term is "unconscious," not "subconscious".

I just copy-pasted it from rico, he sounds a whole lot more competent than me.

The ladder theory is, for all intents and purposes, a perfect example of a meme.

Please explain meme. (I have a simplistic mind, no difficult words for me )

[Bram]

Please explain meme.

Nah. Ik kind of expected the concept to be known among most contributors to this thread. I have no intention of using an elaborate explanation of the meme in order to come over as authoritative. In brief, the basic idea is that it's sort of like a gene. It's a proposed  mechanism for Lamarckian evolution in the same way the gene is the mechanism for Darwinian evolution. It's a unit of information that relates to the transfer and retention of ideas etc. between individuals. Just look it up on wikipedia; it's bound to be on there in much more detain than I could ever provide. If not, try 'memetics', ' cultural evolution' or 'Richard Dawkins'.

I just copy-pasted it from rico, he sounds a whole lot more competent than me.

The fact that you attributed a quote by Jacob to me kind of proves that, yeah

[Godder]

The ladder theory is, for all intents and purposes, a perfect example of a meme.

Please explain meme. (I have a simplistic mind, no difficult words for me )

Go to Google (http://www.google.com), and cut and paste the following text into the search box:

define: meme