[Discussion] The Best Build of Gifts Belcher

[Kowal]

With the Waterbury results up, it becomes evident there were a couple different approaches taken to the newest hard on for Mana Drain owners.  For reference:

Top Eight:  Rich Shay, SSB

4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
4 Brainstorm
4 Thirst for Knowledge
2 Gifts Ungiven
2 Duress
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Tinker
1 Time Walk
2 Goblin Welder
1 Recoup
1 Mana Severance
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Goblin Charbelcher
1 Pentavus
1 Mindslaver
2 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
1 Darksteel Citadel
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Library of Alexandria
2 Island
3 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
SB:
3 Old Man of the Sea
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Echoing Truth
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Rack and Ruin
3 Chalice of the Void

Top Eight:  Carl Winter, SSB

4 Brainstorm
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
2 Thirst for Knowledge
3 Gifts Ungiven
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Mana Severance
1 Recoup
1 Burning Wish
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Yawgmoth's Will
3 Phyrexian Furnace
1 Demonic Tutor
2 Duress
1 Skeletal Scrying
1 Goblin Charbelcher
3 Underground Sea
2 Snow Covered Island
2 Island
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Volcanic Island
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
SB:
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Coffin Purge
1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Pyroclasm
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Rushing River
1 Political Trickery
1 Lava Dart
1 Pyroblast
1 Duress
1 Mind Twist
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Tendrils
1 Cranial Extraction

-In my opinion, Carl's list sacrifices far too much of the draw engine for Phyrexian Furnace, which has always underwhelmed me when I've seen it in action.
-The Burning Wish is interesting, in that it allows a little more flexibility than a Chain of Vapor in the maindeck, but necessitates a really ugly sideboard and obviously causes some mana issues from time to time. 
-Boseiju seems like it doesn't fit the deck well, especially with the reduced Thirst for Knowledge count.  Forcing through a Gifts usually isn't the game plan, since you still need the junk right afterwards to resolve.  I've only been impressed with Boseiju when I was holding both Gifts and Will already, in which case I really have no business losing anyway.
-Colossus?  Does not compute.  Any explanation here, Carl and friends?

Any other thoughts or rebuttals?

[Rico Suave]

I have a few thoughts.

Pentavus has far greater synergy with the Welder, TFK, and even Gifts than Colossus.  It's also much, much easier to hardcast either normally or with Drain.  Granted running 0 Welders and a reduced TFK count eliminates many of these reasons, but that's assuming cutting those cards is the right choice in the first place.

Phyrexian Furnace is cute, but narrow. 

Are Old Man even needed in the SB? 

[Kowal]

I can't speak for Rich's experience with it, but I know I lost to fish far more than I should have and in hindsight I wish I had run Old Man.

[Saucemaster]

-Boseiju seems like it doesn't fit the deck well, especially with the reduced Thirst for Knowledge count.  Forcing through a Gifts usually isn't the game plan, since you still need the junk right afterwards to resolve.  I've only been impressed with Boseiju when I was holding both Gifts and Will already, in which case I really have no business losing anyway.

The "standard" Gifts for the deck is Tinker + Recoup + Yawgmoth’s Will + Time Walk.  Boseiju makes them all uncounterable, as well as the Gifts that sets them up.  I'm not following you here.

-Colossus?  Does not compute.  Any explanation here, Carl and friends?

Toad's got an article on the deck that will come out at some point where he'll go into it in more depth, but adding Colossus gives you the above setup, which only requires 7 mana to win *immediately* after the Gifts (if they give you Recoup + Walk, which is the best of their many horrible options).

As for Furnace, what can I say but that the card has been consistently great in testing?  It's also significantly less narrow than it seems, pitches to Thirst, and of course cantrips.  Obviously we all know the card's strengths, so I'm not sure how much can really be said about it.  Chalk this one up to a simple difference in testing, I guess.

The CAB-based build Carl ran didn't sacrifice any draw, by the way.  Compare:

4 Thirst
2 Gifts
1 Ancestral
1 Fact

to:

2 Thirst
3 Gifts
1 Ancestral
1 Fact
1 Scrying.

And then notice that the latter allows you to Gifts for four draw spells in a control mirror.  Once you drop Welder (and Toad, Carl, Hi-Val, and thecapn can all talk more about that decision than I can--Welder was consistently underwhelming in testing), Thirst is decent, but not a 4-of.

Lastly, the sideboard is tweaked more because of Gifts than because of Burning Wish.  I'm not sure how that sideboard worked out, Carl would have to field that one.

P.S.: As Doug would say, "SNOW-CONE ISLAND!"  There's no reason not to.

[Kowal]

Oh I understand the island, in fact, when I decided to make the jump to 2 basics, I had to track down some German ones.  :p

The "standard" Gifts for the deck is Tinker + Recoup + Yawgmoth’s Will + Time Walk.  Boseiju makes them all uncounterable, as well as the Gifts that sets them up.  I'm not following you here.

You can counter the Recoup, or you can counter the Will.  One of them won't be playable off Boseiju, and you have to cast both in the same turn. 

Toad's got an article on the deck that will come out at some point where he'll go into it in more depth, but adding Colossus gives you the above setup, which only requires 7 mana to win *immediately* after the Gifts (if they give you Recoup + Walk, which is the best of their many horrible options).

This seems pretty bad though, for a number of reasons.  The most obvious of which is that being this is combat damage, your man has to stay in play long enough to swing twice, which is a damn lot of time.  Belcher just kind of kills people immediately.  Also, welders can pwninate this man with relative ease, and random crap like TPS' bounce spells or a Duplicant will completely ruin your gameplan.  I just don't see how running a creature of all things (especially from a team called Creatures Are Bad) is going to make any matchups better.

Lastly, I can't in good conscience consider Gifts a draw spell.  It's more like a Psychatog, in that you win when you cast it, but you don't want an opening hand full of them.  By the time you actually want to be putting Gifts on the stack, you should have been able to find it as a two-of anyway.  Likewise, if you're in a position to cast a juicy gifts, you should have enough mana to execute the usual belcher pieces and win now instead of tinkering up a man, which ties in to what I said above.  Thirst for Knowledge on the other hand is a stupidly powerful and cheap engine requiring very little in commitment, and sacrificing Thirst slots to include things as narrow as Furnace seems very weak.  Chalk it up to testing difference if you want, but this card has been nothing but terrible in every deck we've given it a chance in, aside from Salvager based decks (for obvious reasons)

I'd like to hear Carl's take on the Burning Wish thing.  That still looks like it requires WAAAAAY too much bastardizing of the sideboard to be better than a maindeck answer slot.

[Hi-Val]

Burning Wish is INSANE. If you don't understand how good it is, drop it in the deck. It lets you fight your way out of so much. Consider this Gifts, which isn't even possible in SSB: Scrying, Wish, Will, Tinker. That lets you grab whatever you need if a Ground Seal is out and acts as a great end-of-turn setup. Also, time walking for 4 turns in a row is nice as well. Time Walk is the most broken card in here and Burning Wish lets you get so much out of it. It also lets you avoid someone countering that flashbacked Recoup and really messing you up.

Furnace allows you to maindeck graveyard hate. I don't want to insult anyone's intelligence here, so I'll just assume that everyone knows how crucical that is right now. It also lets you reliably pitch to TFK without having to run trash like Pentavus and Slaver. Think of Furnaces as Welders in this deck, and you'll get their role perhaps.

If Boseiju isn't made for this deck, what is it made for? Seriously, it's the best counterspell in the deck. Facing a control match? Slowroll with a Boseiju'd Demonic for Tinker and then go crazy. Toad was testing once and parised until he found boseiju. He had 4 cards-- Pearl, Bobo, Fetch and Island. He won that game. If you don't realize how good Boseiju is right now, I'll be happy to beat you with it while you scratch your head and say "but they can still counter the other stuff!"

Finally, though we're ditching it from our lists now, Carl did kill someone with a Wished Tendrils at Waterbury : ) The sideboard is wide-ass-open (we're talking goatse) because there are so few cards to trim from the maindeck during sideboarding. I can't see how you guys were cutting 5-6 cards without finding serious play flaws, because everything is so tight as it is.

That said, I was hesitant to cut welders at first. I listened to Toad and tried it out; I haven't looked back since.

EDIT: on the topic of Darksteel Kevin, you guys run Chain of Vapor to deal with Null Rod and we run The Subdivision. It's up to the viewing audience to decide which one they like better, but it's there to answer Fish and Co., just like COV is.

[Saucemaster]

You can counter the Recoup, or you can counter the Will.  One of them won't be playable off Boseiju, and you have to cast both in the same turn.

Right, but then you can still flashback Recoup.  I understand your point, but we're talking about Boseiju as the new LoA here--we're only really talking about the Control matchups, and having the time to threaten a flashback Recoup really *is* a realistic option.  In any event, you can also just Gifts for four draw spells and make your Thirst, Scrying, or Fact uncounterable.

This seems pretty bad though, for a number of reasons.  The most obvious of which is that being this is combat damage, your man has to stay in play long enough to swing twice, which is a damn lot of time.

Again, with 7 mana on the table after an EOT Gifts, it's no time at all.  Your opponent doesn't get another turn.  Your opponent can only ever respond with instants, and never gets an untap.  Creatures are obviously more vulnerable than Belcher is, but then, if you're in a matchup where that matters, you still have Severance/Belcher.

Belcher just kind of kills people immediately.  Also, welders can pwninate this man with relative ease, and random crap like TPS' bounce spells or a Duplicant will completely ruin your gameplan.

Belcher kills people immediately only if you have the full 11 mana to Severance AND Belch on the same turn; otherwise, it has to sit on the table while your opponent takes a turn.  Whereas with just 7 mana and one card slot, you can ensure that your opponent won't get another turn.  In the meantime, the deck still has Severance/Belcher for the matchups where Colossus is sub-par (Welder being obviously the biggest example, though note that Furnace can fizzle a weld if necessary).

By the time you actually want to be putting Gifts on the stack, you should have been able to find it as a two-of anyway.  Likewise, if you're in a position to cast a juicy gifts, you should have enough mana to execute the usual belcher pieces and win now instead of tinkering up a man, which ties in to what I said above.

Again, with less mana than the Belch kill, you still win now, and if you have the mana to cast Severance and Belch, you can still do that, too.  What the extra Gift and the addition of Colossus does for the deck (as well as the Scrying over a Thirst) is give it the ability to cast Gifts earlier and more aggressively.  You're not as inflexibly forced into the control role, and you will find yourself easier able to capitalize on a smaller boost from Drain.  In real tournament situations, that added flexibility is invaluable.  If anything, seeing a Colossus in a deck from Team Creatures Are Bad should be an indication that it must have proved its worth to have overcome such a noted bias.

Thirst for Knowledge on the other hand is a stupidly powerful and cheap engine requiring very little in commitment, and sacrificing Thirst slots to include things as narrow as Furnace seems very weak.  Chalk it up to testing difference if you want, but this card has been nothing but terrible in every deck we've given it a chance in, aside from Salvager based decks (for obvious reasons)

It's also a mischaracterization to portray the modified CAB build as a Furnace vs. Thirst issue.  The Furnaces are taking the place of the Welders, not the Thirsts.  One of the Thirsts became a Scrying, and the fourth Thirst became a third Gifts because the deck is now better-suited to casting--and capitalizing on--an early Gift.  As for the power of Furnace, we're going to have to agree to disagree here.  Obviously we've had very different testing experiences with it.  It certainly didn't seem to have hurt Carl to have them, but then it didn't seem to have hurt Rich to *not* have them, so for now I think the issue is probably a stalemate.  That was one fucked-up sentence.

[Vegeta2711]

Maybe I missed it, but I was still looking for the whole rationale behind cutting TFK's. Since they tend to be the main draw engine and pretty damn crucial if by an off-chance you don't have 7 mana lurking around early on.

[Jacob Orlove]

Maybe I missed it, but I was still looking for the whole rationale behind cutting TFK's. Since they tend to be the main draw engine and pretty damn crucial if by an off-chance you don't have 7 mana lurking around early on.

One of the Thirsts became a Scrying, and the fourth Thirst became a third Gifts because the deck is now better-suited to casting--and capitalizing on--an early Gift.

Running 3 Thirst/1 Scrying is much better than 4 Thirst if you have no welders, since it gives you the fourth draw spell to set up gifts with. Scrying is pretty much just as good as Thirst in a no-welder build, so this isn't even really a "cut".

Going down to three thirst/scrying to make room for the third gifts is a slight cost increase, but gifts is powerful and flexible enough to make running three copies worthwhile. You always want to see one, especially when you can use it early on setups like thirst/fact/scrying/ancestral, or the like.

[Hi-Val]

Also, you can use Scryings to fizzle welders when they try and weld out that Kevin you just Tinkered up for the shiny mox in the graveyard. Since the RFG is an additional part of the cost, they never get a chance to stop it!

[Toad]

-In my opinion, Carl's list sacrifices far too much of the draw engine for Phyrexian Furnace, which has always underwhelmed me when I've seen it in action.

We are running the very same amount of draw spells. Your list runs terrible expensive artifacts like Pentavus and Mindslaver, where mine runs Phyrexian Furnace, a cheap cantrip. Thats even more draw (and more mana stability, since the two Furnace basically act as an additionnal mana source). You also have Gifts Ungiven setups for draw spells thanks to Skeletal Scrying. The deck is also running 3 Gifts Ungiven, which is more than you do. I don't understand how people can only play 2 Gifts Ungiven in a deck based on Gifts, since you win the turn you untap after resolving Gifts Ungiven (which is untrue with Fact or Fiction, for example).

4 Brainstorm (cantrip)
3 Phyrexian Furnace (cantrip)
3 Gifts Ungiven (that can grab 4 draw spells in Control mirrors too)
2 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Skeletal Scrying
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Time Walk
1 Burning Wish (grabbing Mind Twist for additionnal card advantage)
-- 17

vs.

4 Brainstorm (cantrip)
4 Thirst for Knowledge
2 Gifts Ungiven (that can't grab 4 draw spells in Control mirrors)
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Time Walk
-- 13

-The Burning Wish is interesting, in that it allows a little more flexibility than a Chain of Vapor in the maindeck, but necessitates a really ugly sideboard and obviously causes some mana issues from time to time.

If you are looking at the sideboard to understand the inclusion of Burning Wish maindeck, you are misunderstanding the fundamental purpose of the Wish. I almost never Wish for a sideboarded card. Furthermore, the sideboard has a single card that has been added with Burning Wish in mind, and that's Cranial Extraction. All the others are meant to be sideboarded in too. You'll also notice the 1-off sideboard, which is the best setup for a deck packing Gifts Ungiven. Running 1 Pyroblast and 1 Red Elemental Blast, for example, is better than running 2 Red Elemental Blast, because you might be in a situation where you want to Gifts Ungiven for 4 counters. This happened to me once already, and I would have lost the game otherwise.

-Boseiju seems like it doesn't fit the deck well, especially with the reduced Thirst for Knowledge count.  Forcing through a Gifts usually isn't the game plan, since you still need the junk right afterwards to resolve.

The reduced Thirst for Knowledge count is balanced by the upped Gifts Ungiven and Skeletal Scrying count. And these two loooooove being uncounterable. Resolving Gifts Ungiven is the game plan. Boseiju shines in Control mirrors. If you are resolving an uncounterable Gifts Ungiven that puts 2 draw spells in your hand, and if these two draw spells are going to draw you 5+ cards in an uncounterable way too, you are going to win this game regardless of what your opponent is going to do. Gifts Ungiven does not only fetch Yawgmoth's Will, Tinker, Recoup and something else you know? I still have to lose a game where I untapped Boseiju with my build. And yes, I've won some of these I wouldn't have won otherwise.

-Colossus?  Does not compute.  Any explanation here, Carl and friends?

Goblin Welder is very cute, Gifting for Pentavus and Mindslaver to set up a lock is cute, but winning is like, hm, better. I'm wondering why you imply that you need to keep Darksteel Colossus on the board for two turns. Read what Gifts Ungiven do, try to find a correct setup, and win with Darksteel Colossus before your opponent get to have a turn. I've read your reports, and you won some games by Tinkering Pentavus in early game and going beatdown. Darksteel Colossus would have won the game like, 2 turns before. Or less.

I can't speak for Rich's experience with it, but I know I lost to fish far more than I should have and in hindsight I wish I had run Old Man.

That's what happens when you try to do fancy stuff with Gifts Ungiven, running Goblin Welders (Grim Lavamancer), Mindslavers and Pentavus (Null Rod) instead of getting fat 11/11 creatures they can't deal with on the board. 4 basic lands and the upped mana count also helps a lot. My build don't lose to Fish. Fish loses to my Tinker.

I still have to find myself in a situation where I want a Goblin Welder on the board with my own build. Welders tend to do nothing there, unless you are resolving Thirst for Knowledge discarding Mindslaver - which turns you into a lesser Drain Slaver, since you are only running 2 Welders - or unless you are resolving Gifts Ungiven - which wins the game even if you have no Welder out anyways -. Goblin Welders are also a huge liability against Drain Slaver, since they have Welder advantage and can abuse yours under Mindslaver.

Phyrexian Furnace is cute, but narrow.

It gets discarded to Thirst for Knowledge. It cycles, removing a Squee, a Strip Mine, an Accumulated Knowledge, a Deep Analysis or a Mindslaver from the game. It shuts down Skeletal Scrying and Goblin Welder. That's hardly narrow.
When people start FOW'ing cards, you know they are good. This tends to happen a lot with Phyrexian Furnace

Maybe I missed it, but I was still looking for the whole rationale behind cutting TFK's.

Thirst for Knowledge draws 2 cards. Skeletal Scrying draws at least 2 cards. Obvious now?

As a sidenote, there is really no reason to compare both builds. Shortbus build is moreso a Drain Slaver with less Welders and Gifts Ungivens that allows a Combo finish with Mana Severance and Goblin Charbelcher. Cards like Goblin Welder, Pentavus and Mindslaver tend to show that. It is also not designed to maximize Gifts Ungiven (only two Gifts, no search card diversity, etc...). My build, much as the German build, is just a Gifts Ungiven deck. The win condition is totally irrelevant there. You win by casting Gifts Ungiven. I can come up with 5 other win conditions setups for the deck. Auriok Salvagers is one, for example.

[CrazyCarl]

Against SSB, Toadi's Belcher is able to Furnace away whatever you're trying to Recoup.  Hell, if Furnace is out early enough it'll be difficult to use Yawgmoth's Will.  That's one of the biggest strengths I've noticed of Furnace.  It's sort of like having a slower, but never dead, Tormod's Crypt.

Yes, in SSB, cutting down to two Thirsts is TERRIBLE.  The deck is forced to lean on Goblin Welder once in a while.  HOWEVER Toad's list is able to get away with only two because it doesn't have to lean on Goblin Welder.  Skeletal Scrying is generally much stronger in non-Welder decks than Thirst.  It's more flexible AND doesn't get hosed by Red Elemental Blast - something myself and Zherbus used to take advantage of playing 4cc against Tog and the ilk.

Burning Wish was awesome all day.  Wishing for Duress was a very common play all day.  Against Anson (Top 16 3cc deck) I was able to Wish for Primitive Justice to kill his Null Rod and then pull out another in a line of tight wins.  I don't profess Toad's Belcher to be the optimal list and I'm sure there's room for improvement.  Not to toot my own horn, but I won a lot of games where most players would have scooped, and quite a few of them were because of the utility Burning Wish provides.  Like, "Oh shit, I don't think I can win... Oh wait: Tutor for Burning Wish!".  Hell, Wishing for Time Walk after 'Willing lets you -

Cast Will
Tinker for Colossus
Walk
Untap
Burning Wish for Walk
attack for 11
Untap
attack for 11

and I did that a few times as well.  I won't lie though, Cranial Extraction -was- pretty poor.  The sideboard was less than ideal, but what do you expect when you build the deck right before you went to bed the night before you left?

[Vegeta2711]

Thirst for Knowledge draws 2 cards. Skeletal Scrying draws at least 2 cards. Obvious now?

If it was so fucking obvious, I wouldn't of asked why it was dropped from 4 to 2. JOr<3 anwsered me fine, so I don't know why you needed to anwser such an 'obvious' question again or in such a stupid manner.

[The M.E.T.H.O.D]

I hate to jump into this thread but Veggies he wasn't saying it in a condescending manner, you just took it as such.

Thirst for Knowledge draws 2 cards. Skeletal Scrying draws at least 2 cards. Obvious now?

Obvious now as in is it more clear then it was before?  You were reading into it too much.  But I see Meandeckers and other members starting to break off onto sides again which is something I don't want to see.

And this post isn't meant to be anything more then to clear up the part of CrazyCarl's post. So don't read into this anymore then that either. (even though saying such sounds like more then that :lol:).

[The Atog Lord]

I think Carl is doing some interesting things with his build. What really struck me was that Carl beat Master Tap because and only because of Darksteel Colossus. I'm not sure if Colossus is ideal in the deck -- and it certainly is not in a build involving Goblin Welder; but it did serve Carl well that game.

As for Skeletal Scrying. Jacob gave the best reason I've yet heard for the card's inclusion -- that it can be  fetched alongside a Thirst with a Gifts. And it does have some synergy with Burning Wish -- though of course whatever synergy it has with Burning Wish is synergy which it does not have with Recoup.

Thirst for knowledge is one of the most efficient draw spells to see print in ages. For three mana, it lets you see three cards; and unlike Brainstorm, it never hurts your future draws. Yes, Toad, both spells can net a pair of cards for three mana. But that isn't the entire story; if that itself is the criteria, we should cut these cards both and play the more efficient Night's Whisper, which nets two cards for a mana less.

Jacob gave a good account of Scrying, so let me describe why I love thirst. The spell, unlike Scrying, requires no set-up; you can cast it as soon as you have 2U open, instead of waiting until you have in your graveyard a couple spells you don't mind removing from the game. Further, Thirst doesn't deal any damage to you -- a consideration in a deck with Crypt and Boseiju, and in a metagame prone to Fish and MasterTapSligh. Further, unlike having negative synergy with Yawgmoth's will as Scrying does, Thirst actually works in conjunction with Will to fill your graveyard full of goodies. And if you're holding Colossus, Thirst can function like a Brainstorm to return the huge piece of Atog Food to your deck. And do I need to mention that Thirst pitches to Force of Will?

[Machinus]

I agree with Rich that Thirst is overall a superior card, and better for this style of deck as well, for most of the reasons he mentioned. He mentioned that TfK pitches to force; it also gets countered by REB, which is a marginal point but probably the biggest pro to scrying besides its X cost. It is good as a 1-of because of the usefulness with Gifts, but I don't see how that leads to cutting TfK. When cast for three mana, thirst digs one card deeper and is cheaper because of life loss and cards in GY. At four mana you would probably rather be casting FoF/Gifts. So again multiples of the card aren't any good.

[Hi-Val]

Well if you aren't running any welders, TFK gets siginificantly less-good. The bonus of it is that Furnace pitches to it, which is relevant because you want to have as many moxes out to fuel stupid plays as you can. The cut down to 2 TFK allows you to still plow through the deck and have something that's a little stronger in the lategame (scrying). That said, I like running 3 TFK because I end up with Kevin in my hand a lot and discarding it to TFK is the best play ever. Scrying is flat-out nuts though. Casting one-sided draw-7s in the control mirror off the topdeck is pretty good. Since the deck doesn't run welders, the RFG ability also helps clean your graveyard up to lessen welder liability.

If I had the choice between casting TFK and Scrying at any time after turn 3, it'd be Scrying. Doubly so because of no welders. However, TFK is a really good punch-through card and it is great on its own. That's why we settled on the 2/2 mix. I don't run Fact in mine, allowing me to sport 3 TFK.

[jpmeyer]

As for Skeletal Scrying. Jacob gave the best reason I've yet heard for the card's inclusion -- that it can be  fetched alongside a Thirst with a Gifts. And it does have some synergy with Burning Wish -- though of course whatever synergy it has with Burning Wish is synergy which it does not have with Recoup.

The Scrying/Recoup "synergy" isn't as bad as it seems, because your only sorceries are your combo pieces, which should only be in your graveyard because you just cast Gifts (otherwise they're in your hand or library) and thus aren't going to get removed any time soon.

[Kowal]

I think I might be missing something here, but the argument for being able to Gifts for draw spells in control mirrors seems to make very little since.  If you've managed to put yourself in a position where you can resolve Gifts in a control mirror, what business do you have losing anyway?  Getting draw spells is usually a mistake, even in the face of excessive graveyard hate, because you can still get a mix of draw spells and broken shit and put your opponent in a position where they can't recover anyway.

[Toad]

Yes, Toad, both spells can net a pair of cards for three mana. But that isn't the entire story; if that itself is the criteria, we should cut these cards both and play the more efficient Night's Whisper, which nets two cards for a mana less.

Night's Whisper is a sorcery. Skeletal Scrying is an instant.

Further, Thirst doesn't deal any damage to you -- a consideration in a deck with Crypt and Boseiju, and in a metagame prone to Fish and MasterTapSligh.

This has never been relevant to me in playtesting. And I've playtested against Fish, Sligh and Goblins a lot. A funny thing is that you are running 2 Skeletal Scrying in Drain Slaver, a deck with Crypt and Boseiju too. Yet, Drain Slaver is weaker against these decks because it relies on a 1/1 that is easily killed, while my build relies on a 11/11 trampler in these matchups. If Skeletal Scrying is a good card in Drain Slaver, a slower deck with less efficients win conditions, I really don't see how it can be bad there. Skeletal Scrying is far far better than Thirst for Knowledge in a build that is not running Goblin Welder.

Further, unlike having negative synergy with Yawgmoth's will as Scrying does, Thirst actually works in conjunction with Will to fill your graveyard full of goodies.

1. Skeletal Scrying does not have a negative synergy with Yawgmoth's Will AT ALL. This is some kind of argument people keep repeating, and It's seriously blatantly false. The only cards you want to keep in your graveyard are Ancestral Recall, Tinker, Black Lotus and Time Walk. All the other cards are trash, useless. You are not going to replay 2 fetchlands out of Yawgmoth's Will. You are not going to cast Force of Will and Mana Drain. And If I'm ever forced to remove a very good card with it, like Ancestral Recall or Black Lotus, well, I just go for It and I don't care. Drawing cards now is better than waiting for an hypothetical Yawgmoth's Will.
2. If you are running Thirst for Knowledge to fill your graveyard of goodies, you could as well run Compulsion, It will do the same over multiple turns. Or Breakthrough. Or other terrible cards. Your argument is quite a non-sense. If you are holding goodies, why would you ever want to discard them to play them under Will, instead of simply CASTING them once, and REPLAY them later? I have hard times discarding Ancestral Recall to Thirst for Knowledge because I'm holding Yawgmoth's Will.

And do I need to mention that Thirst pitches to Force of Will?

Do I need to mention Thirst gets hit by Red Elemental Blast? Unlike Machinus said, this is FAR from being marginal. Go face Psychatog and Its 4 Red Elemental Blasts, and see the difference between Scrying and Thirst.

and better for this style of deck as well

Instead of casting Thirst to draw 3 cards and discard a Mox, I'd rather cast Skeletal Scrying for at least 2 cards and play the Mox. Moxen have more value on the board than in the graveyard, especially in a deck with a 7 mana threshold to operate.

[The Atog Lord]

Skeletal Scrying is far far better than Thirst for Knowledge in a build that is not running Goblin Welder.

In this case, do you think cutting the remaining Thirsts for more Scryings might be a good idea?

By the way --  I have played Control Slaver with a pair of Skeletal Scryings. This was a list I ran once, in one event. It was tuned for one specific metagame devoid of any sort of aggro.

[Toad]

Skeletal Scrying is far far better than Thirst for Knowledge in a build that is not running Goblin Welder.

In this case, do you think cutting the remaining Thirsts for more Scryings might be a good idea?

I've already done that. Carl was not running my exact decklist at Waterbury.

By the way --  I have played Control Slaver with a pair of Skeletal Scryings. This was a list I ran once, in one event. It was tuned for one specific metagame devoid of any sort of aggro.

Then, since this deck rolls over Aggro thanks to its 11/11 body, tuning the deck for Control matchups is the way to go, and Skeletal Scrying is awesome there. Hence, the Skeletal Scryings.

[Meddling Mike]

Yet, Drain Slaver is weaker against these decks because it relies on a 1/1 that is easily killed, while my build relies on a 11/11 trampler in these matchups.

Wow, that's terrible. Look, unless you draw an assload of fast mana and academy (which is vulnerable to aggro staples like wasteland or null rod) you're not going to hardcast it, so really the role fulfilled by DSC is more the optimal tinker target in aggro matchups, it's equivalent to be compared to in Control Slaver would be something like Sundering Titan, Platinum Angel, Triskelion or the ever popular pentavus. These were included because of their synergy with goblin welder which DSC is notably lacking. I don't see under what justification you're comparing Goblin Welder in Control Slaver to DSC in this deck as they serve almost entirely different functions in two different decks.

Goblin welder also served as a powerful means of getting these fat artifacts into play sooner rather than later in the aggro matchups, but these were means in ADDITION to tinker to get these fat artifacts into play which appears to be your only likely means of getting your DSC into play.

Although DSC is a house once he's in play he's not GG vs the latest W/U incarnations of fish which runs a tidy one mana solution to what appears to be your entire game plan vs. aggro.

DSC is also laughably bad in a number of matchups (i.e. anything with a welder/bounce spell/kills you before he'll matter) and your decision to cut TFKs has made it less likely that you can get rid of this man at a premium and more likely that he'll be stuck in your hand.

[The M.E.T.H.O.D]

Like Toad was being blunt, but a resolved gifts always fetches lava dart/blast/shaman/removal  which makes welder a non issue.

And sans the u/w stp issue dsteel collassus is getting welded out less often then it used to be.

[Meddling Mike]

Like Toad was being blunt, but a resolved gifts always fetches lava dart/blast/shaman/removal  which makes welder a non issue.

And sans the u/w stp issue dsteel collassus is getting welded out less often then it used to be.

1) I don't see a dart or any other means of removing a welder MD, furthermore if he's casting gifts ungiven to sac a mountain to lava dart my welder then that's awesome for me. He could have been using that gifts to do stuff like win the game.

2) The vulnerabilities of DSC and it's weakness in other matchups wasn't really the point of my argument, it's somewhat tangential but I felt it was worth noting.

[Toad]

Wow, that's terrible. Look, unless you draw an assload of fast mana and academy (which is vulnerable to aggro staples like wasteland or null rod) you're not going to hardcast it, so really the role fulfilled by DSC is more the optimal tinker target in aggro matchups, it's equivalent to be compared to in Control Slaver would be something like Sundering Titan, Platinum Angel, Triskelion or the ever popular pentavus.

I have 6 Tinkers in the deck. Drain Slaver has 3. See the fundamental difference? Oh and yeah, Platinum Angel and Triskelion against Aggro. These are hardly threats when your opponent is packing stuff like Umezawa's Jitte or has an easy access to burn spells. Which aggro deck cares about Platinum Angel now anyways? Hmm, I can't think of a single one. 4/4 Flyer vs. 11/11 Trampler, there is hardly a match between these two.

Although DSC is a house once he's in play he's not GG vs the latest W/U incarnations of fish which runs a tidy one mana solution to what appears to be your entire game plan vs. aggro.

Yes, and they run like, 2 Swords to Plowshares? Vs. my 4 Mana Drain, 4 Force of Will, 3 Duress. I've been playtesting against decks packing 4 Swords to Plowshares maindeck, and still get to win with Darksteel Colossus. The Germans, who pioneered Gifts Ungiven decks, have been running a single Darksteel Colossus as win condition, and have been winning tournaments with this only.

Now, whatever, let's admit Swords to Plowshares is good. Just tell me how Tinkering Pentavus is better there, unless you have basillions of mana to spend in response to the Swords to Plowshares? It's not. Actually, Darksteel Colossus gives them at most 2 turns to deal with it. Pentavus, 4.

Sidenote. Kowal and AtogLord have admitted Fish is a bad matchup for SSB. AtogLord runs 3 Old Man of the Sea in its sideboard. Have a look at the sideboard Carl ran. How many cards aimed at Fish do you see? Yeah, a grand total of 0. Just because Fish is an easy matchup. And why is it an easy matchup? Because I'm running stuff that win the game (Darksteel Colossus) instead of stuff that do fancy things (Goblin Welders, Mindslaver, Pentavus).

DSC is also laughably bad in a number of matchups (i.e. anything with a welder/bounce spell/kills you before he'll matter)

Because you guys really don't seem to understand and keep posting "laughably bad" comments about Darksteel Colossus, let me put that in bold red :
YOUR OPPONENT WILL NEVER HAVE A TURN ANYMORE IF YOU GET DARKSTEEL COLOSSUS ON THE BOARD.
Read what Gifts Ungiven does. Read the above comments posted by Saucemaster. Then try to figurate out how this can happen. And before commenting stuff you don't seem to understand very well, practice. Sorry to be rude, but your comments just show you really don't understand how my build works.

Goblin Welder? Ahahaha! I've beaten people to death with Darksteel Colossus despite their untapped Goblin Welder. Hardly a threat. Not even an annoyance. You have all the tools you need in your maindeck to completely ignore it.

1) I don't see a dart or any other means of removing a welder MD

P.H.Y.R.E.X.I.A.N F.U.R.N.A.C.E.
And read above comment about opponent never getting to untap when Colossus hits.

[Meddling Mike]

I have 6 Tinkers in the deck

Funny, I only see one, two relatively cheap tutors to get it and three ridiculously expensive ones to get it.

These are hardly threats when your opponent is packing stuff like Umezawa's Jitte or has an easy access to burn spells

Waterbury Top 16 lists ctrl+F "Umezawa's Jitte" Phrase not found

And for burn, There was MT's burninator list and technically a U/R fish list that had grim lavamancer.

I don't know what the meta's like over in France, but using the Waterbury t16 as a microcosim of New England I'm not seeing either of those Toad.

You also are missing my point here, I'll admit that once in play DSC>Plats (which we haven't run in a while) and probably better than trike and perhaps even Sundering Titan, my problem is the lengths that one must go to in order to get up a DSC.

Yes, and they run like, 2 Swords to Plowshares? Vs. my 4 Mana Drain, 4 Force of Will, 3 Duress.

The winning list at waterbury had 3. After all the shit you'll have to cast to get tinker to resolve off a gifts I doubt you'll have mana open for drain. It's not like they have counters of their own to force spells through or anything right?

Just tell me how Tinkering Pentavus is better there, unless you have basillions of mana to spend in response to the Swords to Plowshares? It's not. Actually, Darksteel Colossus gives them at most 2 turns to deal with it. Pentavus, 4.

Kinda funny, all your super awesome game plans seem to revolve around having basillions of mana available, like 7 available after gifts for example despite the fact that a deck like that runs ample mana denial through wasteland/strip/null rod. Pentavus misses swords entirely for only 5 and leaves you with an army of 1/1 flyers. Pentavus can be better in certain situations because with adequate mana he can play both offense and defense. Again, not saying it's better, I just don't see how it is in any way comprable to goblin welder in a different deck as you chose to do in the post I noted above.

Because you guys really don't seem to understand and keep posting "laughably bad" comments about Darksteel Colossus, let me put that in bold red :
YOUR OPPONENT WILL NEVER HAVE A TURN ANYMORE IF YOU GET DARKSTEEL COLOSSUS ON THE BOARD.
Read what Gifts Ungiven does. Read the above comments posted by Saucemaster. Then try to figurate out how this can happen. And before commenting stuff you don't seem to understand very well, practice. Sorry to be rude, but your comments just show you really don't understand how my build works.

Yeah thanks I've read gifts ungiven before.

Yeah thanks I've read Saucemaster's comments before.

I understand well enough thanks.

This whole "they'll never get to untap" plan seems reliant on you having an assload of mana and many aggro decks have mana denial as a large part of their game plan, seems a bit presumptuous to think you'll just have that much mana chilling on the table no?

P.H.Y.R.E.X.I.A.N F.U.R.N.A.C.E.

Wow, just a teeny bit condescending? You could make the argument that furnace nullifies a welder, but it doesn't remove it. It still doesn't change the fact that casting gifts to find an answer to welder as Ashok suggested would be terrible under all but the most extreme circumstances which is what I was responding to.

[Toad]

Funny, I only see one, two relatively cheap tutors to get it and three ridiculously expensive ones to get it.

That's enough to guarantee a turn 4 11/11 body on the board, after Mana Draining at least one thread on turn 2. Which is far enough to beat Aggro. Even the fast Aggro decks such as Workshop Aggro or RG Madness, especially since you love Mana Drain against these.
Look at the German build, the one that pioneered all the Gifts Ungiven decks around and inspired my build. See other win conditions after Darksteel Colossus? I don't. They even stopped playing Goblin Charbelcher and Mana Severance they had been running since November.

Waterbury Top 16 lists ctrl+F "Umezawa's Jitte" Phrase not found

It's not my fault if people don't play with the broken cards in Aggro decks.

This whole "they'll never get to untap" plan seems reliant on you having an assload of mana and many aggro decks have mana denial as a large part of their game plan, seems a bit presumptuous to think you'll just have that much mana chilling on the table no?

Playtesting results against Aggro and Aggro Control like Fish (15 games played for all, I had no time to have more)

Vial Goblins (Cabal Therapy) : 12-3.
UW Fish (either a Vial build or a Null Rod build, 3 maindeck STP and 2 maindeck Gilded Drake) : 10-5.
RG (maindeck Shaman, Root Maze, Null Rod) : 11-4.
WW (4 maindeck STP and True Believer) : 12-3.

All these decks obviously packing the standard 4 Wasteland and 1 Strip Mine, along with stuff like Null Rod, Abolish, Seal of Cleansing, Daze, Weathered Wayfarer, Rishadan Port, Spiketail Hatchling (...) as additionnal mana denial.
So now, please, stop mentionning the mana denial Aggro matchups. You beat them. Easily. Unlike SSB, which loses to UR Fish (at least) according to Kowal.

There seem to be 2 philosophies when resolving Gifts Ungiven. One is to do fancy stuff, using stuff like Goblin Welders, Pentavus and Mindslavers. One is to simply win the game, using Darksteel Colossus. I'd rather use the second one. All day long.

And after intensive playtesting cessions against decks maindecking Goblin Welders (Stax, Drain Slaver), artifact bounce (TPS), Swords to Plowshares (UW Fish, WW, 4CC) or Gilded Drake (various), I still have to find myself wishing that Darksteel Colossus was something else. I also stopped counting the games I would have lost if Darksteel Colossus was something else such as Pentavus, because I ran out of fingers, feet included.

[The Atog Lord]

Look at the German build, the one that pioneered all the Gifts Ungiven decks around and inspired my build. See other win conditions after Darksteel Colossus? I don't.

Is the list you'd like us to look at published anywhere?

[Dr. Sylvan]

Look at the German build, the one that pioneered all the Gifts Ungiven decks around and inspired my build. See other win conditions after Darksteel Colossus? I don't.

Is the list you'd like us to look at published anywhere?

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/8671.html

Another build which may be based on the Germans' is 2nd place at Leiden, here:
http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/index.php?topic=22265.0