Worse Than Fish 3.0

[o]

A couple of comments/questions regarding the deck:

Classically, Fish has been the most retroactive deck in Vintage that has been in any respect playable.  It would play out its tiny threats and then use heavy disruption to protect them and eventually swing for the win.  However, in recent years Vintage has become a much more modernized format and the power-level of decks has increased exponentially.  As a direct result, recently (and quite dramatically really), Fish, and aggro control in general, has had to step away from retroactivity to proactivity in order to keep up.  This has in general meant it has been forced to leave behind many retroactive answers (0-cost counters, gorilla shaman, burn spells, sophie, etc.) and move on to proactive ones (chalice, meddling mage, jitte, aether vial, etc.)  It's hard to classify Null Rod in either category, but if you think about it, normally it is played after Moxen have had some of their effect, so it is in some regard retroactive.  In any regard, all of this begs the question of: What role does Force of Will play in modern Fish?  Obviously Force of Will has consistently been one of the strongest staples in magic, and many would consider it to "make" Fish.  However, nowadays you often find yourself in a situation where you would much rather play a Meddling Mage from under an Aether Vial BEFORE your opponent casts a Thirst for Knowledge than have to pitch a card after they cast it.  And again, I'm not saying that Force of Will doesn't belong in the deck, it offers it an incredible amount of protection, especially against combo, but I believe that we have reached the point in Vintage where FOW is no longer an "autoinclude."

And now just a question about the sideboard:  What would your sideboard be, post-Savoirs, for an "average" or unknown metagame?  Would you run Pithing Needles?  I think that they definitely classify as proactive answers and would at least deserve some testing.  Would you still run Ray of Revelations in fear of Oath?  I think Pithing Needle can handle Salvager-Oath, and the match-up is generally favorable anyways.  Could you just post a sideboard list, even if it's rough?  Thanks a bunch.

[Ripcord728]

I think you mean reactive, not retroactive.

[o]

I think you mean reactive, not retroactive.

lol, yes... that is what I meant.  Sorry, I'm crazy tired today for some reason.  But yeah, reactive.

[Jacob Orlove]

Force mostly exists to trade with the Forces in my opponent's hand, or to stop them from winning on the first turn.

An easy post saviors sideboard is probably my Richmond SB -3 furnace +3 needle. I have no idea if that's optimal, though.

[thokash]

Jacob,

What number of Brainstorms do you like best?  I have found them very useful at shuffling away useless cards late game and even after breaking Standstill and going to 10 hand size, having a look at 12 cards and deciding what to discard then is nice.  The synergy with fetchlands doesn't need to be explained.  So yeah, I currently 2x Brainstorm and 3x Jitte, but maybe swap in another Brainstorm for the Jitte.

Also thing brings me to my next question, about Gaea's Skyfolk.  Should this guy be run as a 4-of still, or cut to 3-of?  I haven't tested with him as much so I am interested in your opinion.

Cheers!

[Hatt0ri Hanz0]

Hey,

Recently I've been playing around with the deck and have been very impressed. Recently I have been running 2 Brainstorms main having cut the vice and a single standstill. Im fairly certain the standstill isnt the optiomal card to cut however I am impressed with the inclusion of the Brainstorms. Aside from implied synergy with fetches, running two has been good, and they almost always show up when I need them, later in the game when im looking for something specific. In that regard the brainstorms have made running into key Sideboard cards a key factor in many games. When running only 3 oxidise or other key SB spells having the brainstorms to allow you to dig further into your deck can be invaluable.

One of the clear advantages of green in this build is the vastly improved clock along w/ the jiite, however I am wondering how people feel about recent inclusions of geas skyfolk over spiketail hatchiling which i have found to be extreamly valuable. In a deck like this the differnce between a 1/1 and a 2/2 is significant however the number of times i have been able to cripple oponents gameplan through either a suprise spiketail or aggresive atacks on their mana base through an early chalise / wasteland combonation and the ability to keep them off their key spells for another turn with the spiketail, though they have proven less usefull with out the assistance of daze.

Also against decks that rely heavily on artifact exeleration like Gifts belcher or what not, Game 2 or 3, when your on the draw do you feel that its still worth it to keep in Chalise?

-Matt

[Jacob Orlove]

I'm pretty sure that 2 Brainstorms lets you go down to 23 mana. That's where I made the cut, anyway.

Chalice is very important, even on the draw. They can't mulligan into artifact mana, so they're limited to what they have in their opening hand, which usually isn't much. It still stops any mana they draw into, which makes their "draw cards, play manas, draw more cards" plan much more difficult. If you have room to bring in Oxidize, you can sometimes just stop them from being able to Tinker (that happens more against combo, though). Don't forget that against TPS, for example, you can also lay down Chalice 1 to stop their Brainstorms, tutors, and Rituals. You usually need to play your own one-drops first, though.

If Spiketail is working for you, great. I like Skyfolk a lot, but it certainly won't counter many spells. Go with whichever tests better for you.

[alban]

I've followed this discussion for a while, but can't keep up with all the changes you discuss.
So here's my question: could somebody post the most recent list?
thanks,
Alban

[thokash]

Worse Than Fish v3,
by Jacob Orlove
4 Wild Mongrel
4 Basking Rootwalla
4 Gaea's Skyfolk
3 Ninja of the Deep Hours

4 Force of Will
4 Standstill
4 Aether Vial
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Brainstorm
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk

4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Island
4 Tropical Island
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald

(from StarCityGames latest article - no sideboard included)

I think this is basically changing:
-4 Spiketail Hatchling
+4 Gaea's Skyfolk

-1 Island
+1 Tropical Island

-1 Library of Alexandria
-1 Black Vise
+2 Brainstorm

As there was no sideboard posted in the article, what did you end up choosing over Phyrexian Furnace/Ground Seal/Tormod's Crypt/Pithing Needle (when it becomes legal).  I want to run Ground Seal, but getting that green mana is more trouble than the colourless (or free) of the other 3.

Also, is 3 or 4 the correct number of Gaea's Skyfolk to be running?

[Machinus]

Is Pithing Needle worthy of maindeck space?

[shade88]

Is Pithing Needle worthy of maindeck space?

Well it would have to be a 2 of, probably trading for brainstorm, because nothign else could really leave. chalice is leaps and bounds ahead of pithing needle, and cotv would be the only plausible thing to cut without completely screwing with the deck, so it falls back upon brainstorm. In the right meta( bazaars, togs, welders) 2x pithing needle for 2x brainstorm would probably be stronger.

Also, is 3 or 4 the correct number of Gaea's Skyfolk to be running?

4. For two reasons.
1.) The first is pitch counters. The deck needs the 4 gaea's skyfolk to make sure it can consistanly pitch to FoW.
2.) the second reason is simply creatures. u/g fish is much more of an aggro deck than previous u/w or u/r rish. Accordingly, it needs all the beats it can get. Even though spiketail isn't a huge beater, it can stall the opponents game plan long enough to get them in the danger zone with creatures and jitte. Without the extra turn from spiketail, gaea's skyfollk is needed to make up the extra damage lost from that turn. u/g fish plays ordinary tempo, like other fish versions, but then has a point and time in the game were aggro takes ove and you win or you win,to a lesser extent,by  extreme card drawing, or you simply lose. Spiketail greatly helped because the one extra turn it can stall the opponent can be more than enough, especially with jitte. I rarely lose a game where I untap with a jitte that has two counters on it. The deck has to keep those 4 blue creatures to make sure the pressure is always aplied on the opponent.

[JuJu]

Okay, so couple of questions that Jacob hasn't answered yet. This is in first to last post that Jacob hasn't answered to.

Is Pithing Needle worthy of maindeck space?

I replaced the Chalices with them and found that almost always the deterent in the opponen't speed is more important then the Pithing Needle. It's definitely board material however.

Thokash: I chose Needle because it cuts off every card that ever bugs me. Some graveyard disruption is good, but needle is better, I think.

Gaea's Skyfolk discussion; I like this guy as a 2/2 bear but I've been playing the deck with Hatchlings and love it. I'm actually thinking of replacing them with Kai though because I miss hard counters.

I have other questions that I'll ask later but I'm tired so, enjoy.

[Sephiroth_FFVII]

Going a little off topic and A LOT off the traditional fish-like deck card choices but...there are over 10 permanent artifacts in the deck. Is it possible for the inclusion of Tinker and some GG artifact(s)?

[Anusien]

Going a little off topic and A LOT off the traditional fish-like deck card choices but...there are over 10 permanent artifacts in the deck. Is it possible for the inclusion of Tinker and some GG artifact(s)?

There are a few real problems with that.  I suppose you could cut 2 Brainstorm and maybe a few Standstills if you want to.  If you do that however, you're cutting down on the number of blue cards you're running, making your Force of Wills pretty bad (and they're somewhat clutch in here).  Especially if you cut Brainstorm, you run the risk of drawing your bombs and not being able to put them back.  You might gain some raw power, but you're losing a lot of consistency, and you risk running Tinker into the previously worthless (to your opponenet) Drain.  It seems to me that Jitte is the only GG artifact you need.

[thokash]

It is tempting to add stuff like Tinker -> Colossus, and even Thirst For Knowledge, but in the end the deck is too tight as is and there are better cards to run.  In the end, its a tempo deck that doesn't need to run cards that win more.  I would gladly add more Brainstorms in place of these cards.  As Anusien said, Jitte is basically the win card in this deck, as well as a way to get out of trouble.

Pithing Needle really isn't required maindeck unless you see loads of decks with Welders and Bazaars.  I find this a major advantage of the Needle over other graveyard hate options, even though Furnace can help against Dragon and even Yawgmoth's Will to an extent.

I suggest not cutting Chalice's under any circumstance, unless you are on the draw and feel they wouldn't be as useful.

I'm still unsure of the whole 4th creature in the deck, whether it be Skyfolk, Hatchling or Bouncer.  I guess we will wait until next weekend when Jacob runs his new build at Rochester.

[Jacob Orlove]

Tinker is an interesting option, but I personally don't like it in the maindeck. I have considered the Tinker/Mystical/DSC package for the sideboard, though, because it'd be superhot against annoying decks like RGbeats that actually show up here in Denmark. I understand that *someone* is running maindeck Tinker/DSC at Rochester though, so we'll see how that turns out. Also, it's worth noting that Tinker can act as another Jitte, if for some reason you want to run 5.

If Pithing Needle is a SB option, it's pretty much strictly superior to random graveyard hate. I wouldn't really want it maindeck, though, because I can't really abuse it against fetchlands.

For Skyfolk, if you'd rather play the deck to abuse Spiketails, Kai, Thief, Bouncer, whatever, go for it. That slot is a mix of metagame call and personal preference. You probably need it to be a 4-of, though, both for Force and to make sure you draw enough creatures (although you could go with some 2/2 split of like Kai/Bouncer or whatever).

Generally the decision to SB out Chalice is independent of whether you're on the play or on the draw (out against Fish, in against Combo/Drain/Stax/etc). The only deck where I'd side it out on the draw but not on the play is (non-salvagers) Oath and maybe some weird aggro decks that run full power (Affinity?).

[ninevolt]

Have you thought about the addition of Meddling Mage in the place of the skyfolk/spiketail slot? He's still a blue creature, and a 2/2 body. He lacks evasion but could be a more effective control component to the deck. And since you already have either the tundra main or a tundra and plains in the board, and vials are generally set at 2 it shouldn't be too difficult to work him in.

Is the evasion really needed, or can you replace the flyers with the mage to shut down the opponent that much more?

[Jacob Orlove]

I think Ben Kowal was looking at running Meddling Mage in that slot. It does mean running no basic lands in your manabase, but if you think it's worth it, mage can do some crazy things.

Also, for everyone who's at 23 lands, you should probably change the SB plains to a Tundra. If you're still at 24, Plains is probably safer, since Oath still usually runs 5 strips.

[thokash]

I briefly tried the white splash in my build (with MM maindeck), and apart from the mana issues it brings, I found with only the 4 FoW as a counter base I couldn't hold off their match winning threat before I got the Mage onto the table.  The advantage of the U/W build is it has more space for stuff like Daze/Misdirection to hold out long enough to play a Mage and stop the threat altogether.

[Kowal]

Here's what I ran at Rochester.

4 Wild Mongrel
4 Basking Rootwalla
4 Meddling Mage
3 Rootwater Thief

4 Aether Vial
4 Standstill
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Force of Will
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk

3 Umezawa's Jitte

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
2 Island


The manabase was never an issue. 

The biggest point I need to address is that of Standstill.  That card is horrible, horrible ass.  In eight rounds of swiss plus a bonus round against Bleiweiss, I never even put that card on the stack, let alone had it resolve, let alone had it get broken, let alone had it been useful.  This card could have been Evermind and I would have gotten the same usage out of it.

I also wanted to find room for a maindeck bounce spell, so my next list will feature something like:

-4 Standstill
+1 Tinker
+1 Colossus
+1 Mystical
+1 Rushing River

It's cutting dangerously low on blue cards, but I'm sure there is a way to fit a couple more in if you're worried about it.  I for one am not.

[Hatt0ri Hanz0]

Kowal:
A lot of my experiance with WTF standstill has been aided the most by conjunction with Mishras Factory. Often having an uncounterable beater on the board is enough to drop an early standstill and claim w/ the Factory enough of a superior board possition that the opponent is forced to break the Standstill imediatly creating a critical swing in my direction. Your build diverges from alot of the synergy in earlier builds between factory/ninja/vial, along w/ mongrel -> rootwala that made standstill a powerfull threat. and i'd say that your builds absence of the Ninja / Factory is adequate reason to remove standstill.

Also im curious as to how your useage of the Mage and Theif have been. Was the Theif more of a meta call or do you think it belongs in an optiomal decklist? As stated before, do you think the additionional power of the Mage/Theif/White was more potent than the more seemingly synergystic approach taken by more traditional builds?

-Matt

[Kowal]

I originally tested Jacob's list with Spiketail from Richmond, and then tried what he told me he thought was the best list at the moment.  From these testing sessions, I was able to determine two things immediately:

The Spiketails/Skyfolk are both fucking terrible.  They don't do anything relevant.

The ninjas were cool, but horribly underwhelming.  Drawing a single card for 1U was pretty horrible, and he often didn't swing more than twice.  Likewise, there are a lot of hands where you have only one or two threats, and if the ninja is one of them, you can run in to some issues.  Ninjaing out your factories sucks, and if he's the only dork in your hand, you don't want to ramp vial up to 4.  It's just not worth all the hassle to get a bad draw engine.

To solve the issue, I decided I wanted 7 threats that were blue and did useful things.  Jacob's deck is lacking disruption beyond the mana denial plan, so I decided to take the route Ashok did, and run Thief and Mage.  Both have been fucking spectacular.  Both win games all by themselves and cause severe headaches for focused decks.

In the previous testing, Standstill was never amazing.  I don't think it was even good.  Was it better?  Probably.  But considering what's necessary out of the creature base, Standstill just cannot be a part of the deck anymore.  There is never a time when I have two mana open and casting Standstill is better than playing a threat, or a jitte, or swinging with a factory.

[JuJu]

I second most of Kowal's points except the Mages. I've never liked playing Mages in any deck. I don't like the Skyfolk, Bears are cool and all but they're not all that great for a tempo deck. Spiketails get played around way too easily. I'm going to try Kai though. Now that you're not running Ninjas, would try the Sophies instead of the Jittes, Card drawing, pinging. The Standstills were ass for me too. Anyone smart could play around them, just like the hatchlings. I almost feel like running black for Mesmeric Fiends, Shades and maybe some other stuff but that's already in another thread.

[Kowal]

Meddling Mage is absolutely freaking key.  The only reason to not run it would be if you're not familiar enough with the format to name the correct card with the Mage.

Never, ever cut Jitte from the deck.  Jitte is leagues and worlds ahead of SoFaI.  It's not even close.

[Greenebean]

I also must agree with Kowal on his points. I have been doing some testing with different variants of the Worse Then Fish builds:

I have found that when Rootwater Thief resolves and deals combat damage, it spells certain disaster for many different decks. As I found in my first round game against the U/W build in Rochester, Thief proved to be very effective against my Oath build because it resolved and I could not find an answer for it. I know this seems very cut and dry, and does sound seemingly pointless. It is obvious that when Thief resolves and deals damage, its a bomb to your opponent.
 
Ultimately, the break down of what to run in what places in this deck comes down to the player playing the deck itself. Once a player become uncomfortable or hesitant in playing their deck, they have already lost the match before it has begun. In my own perspective, I like the addition of Meddling Mage because it has answers for every deck. Whether your naming Tendrils of Agony, Yawgmoth's Will, Oath of Druids, Tinker, etc it creates your opponent to have to think long and hard about each decision from there on out.

From Kowal's additions to the deck, I am going to further test these points, as well as attempt to find a replacement for Standstill. Most times, the Standstill is in fact a horrible card, and I too have found better things to use two open mana for than a standstill. The thing I most strongly oppose is that just because Standstill hits play, this does not mean that you are going to be able to draw from it, because as the others have said, it is still easily played around.

[Marco]

Kowal: Your deck looks tight. I definitely like the Tinker/Colossus plan. Didn't I see you playing Kira, Great Glass-Spinner in your bonus round against Bleiweiss at Rochester?

[bedafile]

I can see the problem with Standstill comparing WTF to Gay/R Fish. With Gay/R you can draw into a daze/force and work your board position w/ Kai and Spiketail to counter a key spell. However as Jacob said earlier, Force is there so you don't lose on first turn, and standstill just draws into more cards you may or may not need.

If you play Spiketail or Kai then you can support Standstill, if you don't try Brainstorm and perhaps Tinker/DSC.

I think its a great deck BTW, nice job everyone!

[o]

I can see the problem with Standstill comparing WTF to Gay/R Fish. With Gay/R you can draw into a daze/force and work your board position w/ Kai and Spiketail to counter a key spell. However as Jacob said earlier, Force is there so you don't lose on first turn, and standstill just draws into more cards you may or may not need.

If you play Spiketail or Kai then you can support Standstill, if you don't try Brainstorm and perhaps Tinker/DSC.

I think its a great deck BTW, nice job everyone!

Is brainstorm really optimal?  Whatever happened to the classic Curiosity engine that fish used to run before ninja replaced it?  Is it really gone forever?   Even still there's got to be something better for a draw engine than brainstorm to replace standstill.

EDIT: Well since you are running mogrels, Deep Anals could at least be a possibility.

EDIT 2: Actually, some mixture like... 2x Brainstorm 2x Deep Anal could work really really welll. Would have to try that out.

[Greenebean]

Something about this deck just makes me start to think more and more in depth. I really like the Tinker/Colossus option in the deck. It makes it even more of a threat when a 11/11 it staring you in the face with a Jitte'd Wild Mongrel sitting next to it. My other idea I had been thinking about would be main decking Kira's over the Rootwater Thief, and holding them in the board. In the environment of this past Rochester, Swords to Plowshares and other removal spells were running rampant. I played Chalice Oath and I saw my creatures being targeted a lot with removal, but thats the obvious. I guess the main deck Kira's would be a total meta game response. So I guess with my idea, the creature base would consist of the following:

4 Basking Rootwalla
4 Wild Mongrel
4 Meddling Mage
3 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
1 Darksteel Colossus

I am going to start testing this creature base and see how well it works out. Let me know what you think, but please do not be too harsh.

[Kowal]

Re: Kira

I had her in my sideboard, and I think that's probably where she belongs.  Most people don't run a ton of maindeck removal, and if they do, they're probably going to lose to either chalice of the void, or decks that don't care about removal like SSB or Stax.  Kira is a plan I like to have access to the same time my opponents are likely to bring in the fish h8.  The only thing I don't like about her is that she doesn't do a thing against Pyroclasm, which was what appeared to be the most common answer to fish in the sideboards at the top tables.


Re:  Rootwater Thief

In conjunction with Meddling Mage, the Oath matchup is cake.  I think my round 8 oath opponent was a TMDer-- he might be able to explain how quickly he had to scoop when I played these two creatures against him.  In addition he makes combo players scramble to get their chalice removal and kill conditions instead of scramble to combo off quickly, and it forces decks like Gifted.fr to find the Colossus quickly or be left without a way to win.  If the WTF craze doesn't die down at all after Rochester, I'll likely move these guys to the board, but for now I think I'm going to keep running them.