Worse Than Fish 3.0

[Greenebean]

Point taken. I will still probably mess around with it for a while, but its looking like you are right...

[thokash]

Would Thirst For Knowledge hold up in this build?  Or is it too many intensive?  I don't think you would have any problem with pitching a dead artifact late game to it, but you will probably want to be using its mana to cast threats instead of more draw.  Just a suggestion.

Edit:  Kowal - what sideboard were you running for the event?

[Greenebean]

Granted the deck lacks a strong draw engine, especially if you remove the Standstill's, but I am not sure if Thirst For Knowlegde is the answer. With removing the 4 Standstill's, Kowal suggested adding 1 Tinker, 1 Colossus, 1 Mystical Tutor, and 1 Rushing River. But when I wrote out the deck list I am going to start testing, I did notice the apparent lack of draw spells, but the thing is, at what risk are you going to take by removing other essential cards for a stronger draw engine. I think that there is a need for card drawing ability, and Thirst could be the answer, or it could flop, but only testing will provide and answer.

*thokash, if you get to testing TFK before I do, let me know how it works, and let me know what you replace.

[Kowal]

I never found myself wanting to waste time casting draw spells when I still had threats I hadn't cast.  If I wanted to draw cards, I'd just keep the Standstills in the deck.  Thirst for Knowledge is like a more expensive Standstill in the deck.

I found most of my games to be over too quickly for draw spells to have any relevance.  It's all about threats.

[Negator13]

I never found myself wanting to waste time casting draw spells when I still had threats I hadn't cast.  If I wanted to draw cards, I'd just keep the Standstills in the deck.  Thirst for Knowledge is like a more expensive Standstill in the deck.

I found most of my games to be over too quickly for draw spells to have any relevance.  It's all about threats.

If your gameplan is to kill them before they can blink, would something like Dandan, a huge, cheap threat, be better than the Thiefs in your build? Thief doesnt seem to fit if your games go that fast.

[Kowal]

Thief is generally a two turn clock.  That's way better than Dandan.

EDIT:  Also, I forgot about the guy asking for my sideboard.

3 Ray of Revelation
3 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Oxidize
2 Kira, Great Glass Spinner
2 Sacred Ground
1 Lance

The Lance was my signature joke card, but I didn't make t8.  I'll get you yet, Phillip Stanton!

Ray of Revelation count got dinked because Mage and Thief make the Oath matchup much, much better.
BEB is necessary to combat Food Chain, which I expected would be a little bit more common at Rochester than it was.
Tormod's Crypt is an obvious inclusion.
Oxidize is also an obvious thing to have.  Without a joke card, this should be a three of.
Kira might also be a potential three of.  She's very handy for dodging stupid shit like Old Man (obv)
Sacred Ground is a fucking beating against Stax and 5strips.dec.

[rvs]

The Lance was my signature joke card, but I didn't make t8.  I'll get you yet, Phillip Stanton!

You know, the only way to do that is load up the erratic explosions!

[Gabethebabe]

I would be interested in Jacob´s opinion of the observations of Kowal. I mean, Kowal just called a quarter of his deck "fucking terrible", "underwhelming" or "horrible ass" (I guess that is just the way the man speaks).

Kowal´s version of the deck is more like a Madness deck than a Fish deck. I would be really surprised if his version of the deck without draw (ninjas, standstills) is viable in T1.

Especially the latest addition of Colossus to the deck looks really really bad. Any deck that runs Tinker/Colossus should run Brainstorms for the obvious reason. In 33% of the games you will draw Colossus before you draw Mystical/Tinker. And then what? Ramp up Vial to 11?

[racetraitor]

Personally I agree with most of Kowal's points. The 2-mana slot is really jammed and you want to apply preassure ASAP instead of losing tempo by drawing cards (esp. conditional draw that slows you down). The deck is very mana hungry, and between pumping rootwallas, activating factories and equiping jittes there's not much room to drop a standstill even after you've deployed your first line of offense.

And regarding colossus you have to remember that most of the times when you happen to draw him before tinker/mystical you'll have a mongrel in play that you can discard to and shuffle him back into your library. The benefits of having a huge finisher far outweighs the drawbacks imo.

[Ender]

I think Kowal's comments were directly influenced by the metagame at scg. Just by looking at the top 8, 4 of them were fish decks with 2 of them running vials as well while the others were running cloud of faeries. His creatures are much better compared to the "normal" fish deck's creatures so he had to be the beatdown in the matchups.

[savekeeper]

@ Kowal (and others): how good/bad is the Stax and/or Workshop aggro matchup?

I'm going to a 12 proxy tournament soon and I am thinking about playing the exact same list Kowal posted. However, I fear the Workshop.deck matchups, and I expected to see those a lot.

Also, would you sideboard Sacred Ground in against a deck like Fish (who plays 5 strips)? Seems like a waste too me since I would rather have Oxidize (I'm gonna play 3-4 of those). About Tormods Crypt, isn;t that rather bad with Chalice going for zero all the time?

On a side note, I too would like to know how Jacob feels about the changes Kowal made to his deck.

[KrA0nS]

Well I'm thinking that you side in Crypt against stuff like Dragon and CS and when you play a Chalice it can be set to 1 for Welder, it gets rid of your rootwallas but welder is a bigger part of the their game then you are to rootwalla, so Crypt can be useful, just don't drop chalice for 0.

[Demonic Attorney]

Just for the record, I agree with a lot of what Kowal said.  While our builds went in very different directions, I had problems with a lot of the same cards that he did.  Standstill was totally and completely horrible for me all day long.  Never once did it do anything for me except either sit dead in my hand as I wished it was a threat to achieve board parity against other aggro, or delay the inevitable against powered combo decks.  I don't think I'm going to run this deck in the future, but if I did, I would almost certainly cut Standstill.  While I can appreciate the theory behind it, its performance for me at SCG was quite simply abysmal.

Likewise, Kira was extremely strong for me in Rochester.  Multiple opponents boarded in Seasinger against me during the tournament, and Kira neutralized that card while providing another threat that evaded the jockeying for ground superiority. 

River Boa seems promising, as well.  Aside from stopping anything my opponent can muster on the ground in aggro mirrors, it is also unblockable against virtually any non-workshop deck in the format.  Against Oath, it hit for 10 damage in one turn with an Umezawa's Jitte when their huge creatures started appearing.

Lastly, Ninja of the Deep Hours is fucking amazing.  Against Venguer Mask, I used it in Game 2 to win through mulliganing to 5 on the draw facing a Chalice for 1 AND a Chalice for 2.  The card is absolutely insane.  4 is probably too many, but I'd never want fewer than 3 in a deck that can support its ninjitsu ability.  Its combined role as damage-producer and card-advantage machine makes it perhaps the best creature in the deck, with the only possible exception being Mongrel.

[cryolyte]

could gush work in here? It draws cards and is synergistic with both aether vial (you aren't as land dependant) and mongrel (more cards to pitch mid to late game). Also, it is some good in response to sundering titan, which I was owned by during a close game 3 with 7/10.

In response to Tormod's Crypt, I think that the reason Jacob ran Phyrexian Furnace over the crypt because usually you have a chalice for 0 out against control slaver in order to a) make tinker more expensive, and b) keep welder a little less useful (among other fun things to do with moxen).

As far as oxidize goes, would hurkyl's recall be sifficient replacement or a compliment for/to oxidize? I have just been goldfishing with it, but it seems that against a deck like stax you would rather have mass artifact removal than spot-removal. It could also be fun to hurkyl's recall a whole lot of moxen and then slap down a chalice for 0 or 1.

This is the list I am currently toying with:

4x Wild Mongrel
4x Basking Rootwalla
4x Force of Will
4x Aether Vial
3x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Time Walk
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Mox Emerald
1x Black Lotus
1x Sol Ring
4x Wasteland
4x Flooded Strand
2x Island
4x Mishra's Factory
1x Strip Mine
4x Tropical Island
3x Ninja of the Deep Hours
4x Chalice of the Void
3x Standstill
2x Waterfront Bouncer
2x Old Man of the Sea
1x Rushing River
1x Gush

2x Kira, Great Glass Spinner
3x BEB
1x Rushing River
3x Phyrexian Furnace
2x Arcane Laboratory
2x Hurkyl's Recall
2x Gilded Drake

I'd like to work oxidize back in but I'm not sure what to cut. I'm choosing not to run ray of revelations because I feel that bouncer/drake should be able to handle oath creatures. I hate to even suggest such a card, but with the myriad of utility creatures here, could worldly tutor be useful at all? I'm considering tinker colossus, but I'm not sold on the idea yet. At present, I think utility is a better way to go.

[littlerabbit]

i am new but i would like to know if someone as all ready thought of playing survival of the fittest in this deck it could be great with aether vial(instead of standstill)
maybe it is too slow but i think it gives a lot of option like playing each turn a meddling mage
or going for a gilded drake or just discard a 4 basking rootwalla...

[cryolyte]

In the green/blue build, survival would be too slow, and I think that standstill works great in this build (the only reason I dropped to 3 was for a gush). Since you can drop your creatures with aether vial you never really have to break standstill, so it works very well. You can try it, but I think it's doubtful that it would be a better choice than standstill.

[Webster]

This deck isn't about abusing the graveyard, which is what survival is meant to do. While deck archetypes that use survival are more geared towards utility, worsethanfish.dec is orientated with tempo more, seeking to play bears with some disruption here and there.

Survival requires some unfair benefit of getting cards into the graveyard, such as goblin welder, volrath's shapeshifter, etc.


Webster

[Hatt0ri Hanz0]

Just for Clarification, this is a more "fun" idea but when searching MWS for some replacements for hatchling/skyfolk, i ran into one of the coolest cards that i would conider shoving into a competitive deck because Hippos are just that fucking awsome.

Pygmy Hippo
UG
2/2
Summon - Hippopotamus

Whenever Pygmy Hippo attacks and isn't blocked, you may have defending player play a mana ability of each land he or she controls and empty his or her mana pool. If you do, Pygmy Hippo deals no combat damage this turn and at the beginning of your postcombat main phase, add X to your mana pool, where X is equal to the amount of mana emptied from defending player's mana pool this way.

Kinda cool, fits the curve. UG for a 2/2 bear w/ a fun ability. Can help speed out jites and equips and at worst have them tap out to take the burn in response. But most importantly it acts as a psedo xantid swarm agaisnt mana drain decks so you can play all your sorcery speed spells in your post combat main phase w/o the fear of running into a mana drain.

I get that its probably not optiomal, but im just thowring it out there. It may have a spot agaisnt drain decks and is always usefull as a 2/2 beater. So in conclusion....its a fucking hippo (pygmy to be specific)

[endersdouble]

Dunno.  I guess that's kinda cool (ok, really cool) but what would you do with the mana?

[Null Rob]

The key word in Hippo's ability is "may".  Whenever possible, you don't want to give your opponent the choice of whether or not to take damage.  This guy is strictly worse than Skyfolk, as, for the same mana cost, he doesn't fly and he lets the opponent choose whether or not to take damage.

[cryolyte]

Your opponent doesn't get to choose, you do

"If Pygmy Hippo Attacks and is not blocked, you may choose to have it deal no combat damage this turn. If you do, defending player draws all mana from his or her lands and then his or her mana pool is emptied. After combat, add an equal amount of colorless mana to your mana pool.  "

This COULD be cool, but I think it is still worse than running spiketail or gaea's skyfolk. Of course, I think gaea's skyfolk is less useful than running MD bouncers or Old men, but that's just me.

[vartemis]

hi, im Josh, and I have been trying this deck out for a bit and am quite enjoying its developement.  A creature I have been trying out in that blue creature slot is Tolarian Enchanter.

Tolarian Enchanter   1U
Summon - Wizard [1/1]
Weatherlight

Whenever Tolarian Entrancer is blocked by any creature, gain control of that creature at end of combat.

Now I do have alot of aggro and workshops in my area, so creatures run rampant.  I know it is a 1/1 with no evasion for 2, but ideally you would want it to be blocked anyways.  Anything played that can kill it (a la bolt or pyroclasm)  can also kill a 2/2, so the power/toughness isnt an issue.  I have found that most of the time my opponents just let him through because they dont want me taking their creatures.  If they dont have any weenies out, like workshops that run juggs, they dont want to block because I just get a bigger beatstick.  When it gets near the end of the game, or if I have a jitte on him,  you see a swing in power.  One game he had the jitte and became a 5/5.  My opponent blocked with a sundering titan as he was at 5.  Now I had a nice blocker that he couldn't weld out as a pinged it with the jitte during my first main phase.  Paying 1U for a jugg or any other beatstick is very cost effective.  Maybe its just a janky card, but it has worked well for me.

j

[Revvik]

I think it would work better in a deck with Curiosities, but there's no denying its potence with Jitte and synergy with the Ninja.  But is it better than the other creatures at that CC in the deck?

[vartemis]

I forgot to mention the synergies with the ninja, good call.  I don't think about it as better or worse than other creatures in the deck, I was looking at a replacement for the skyfolk or bouncer or whatever creature is filling that slot.  This slot is rather weak compared to the rest of the deck, so I was just trying to find something that was better than what was currently filling that spot.

j

Edit:

Here is the decklist, so that people will know what I am currently testing.

Creatures 
4   Basking Rootwalla   
4   Meddling Mage   
3   Rootwater Thief   
3   Tolarian Entrancer   
2   Voidmage Prodigy   
4   Wild Mongrel 

Spells 
2   Brainstorm   
4   Force of Will 

Enchantments 
4   Curiosity

Artifacts 
4   Aether Vial   
3   Chalice of the Void   
3   Umezawa's Jitte

Lands 
2   Flooded Strand   
2   Island   
4   Mishra's Factory   
2   Polluted Delta   
1   Strip Mine   
3   Tropical Island   
2   Tundra   
4   Wasteland 


...and before anyone says anything, I know there is no lotus or moxes there.  My local Main type 1 tournament in Listowel Ontario does not allow power 9 or sideboards, but everything else is allowed.  You can still go broken on turn 1, but its just not as likely.  I find its just as good as 10 card proxy because no one has power, so it levels the playing field.  Other than workshops or bazaars, most cards are financially attainable.. but this is for another thread.

I am currently testing against oath and dragon, and it is doing pretty well.  The Enchanter swingin the jitte is a tough choice for oath when they only have 2 creatures.  My main problem is what to maindeck to slow down Dragon as I have no sideboard, and more than once it has gone off second turn with a bazaar and ritual.  If I can get a theif down and get a couple of swings in, removing laquatus and the other target (usually sliver queen cuz our local group hasnt descovered yamabushi or the dragon), I can force at least a draw.  I am finding dragon my toughest matchup, other than burn which is a given.  With only 2 voidmage and 4 force in the deck I can't seem to stop em from going off.  Sometimes I can get lucky and get a mage down naming animate and wait to counter a necromancy,  but then a dance of the dead is always there as a possibilty.

any reccomendations?

j

[cryolyte]

The Tolarian Enchanter is a good idea, and merits testing, but I think that it's a metagame call, really. The toughness is an issue when you consider that lava dart is still an oft-used card in the vintage metagame at large. Also, while this creature would be stellar when equipped with a jitte, if you don't happen to have jitte on the board then this guy isn't dangerous at all. If I were your opponent in that case, then I would be much better off blocking your mongrels, rootwallas, and factories and leaving him alone. Therefore, I would have to say that he's a situational creature. Of course, Old Man and the bouncer are also situational, but I would say more generally useful. Just thinking aloud here.....

 

[PucktheCat]

Tolarian Enchanter   1U
Summon - Wizard [1/1]
Weatherlight

Whenever Tolarian Entrancer is blocked by any creature, gain control of that creature at end of combat.

Why is this better than any number of 1/1 creatures with evasion?  Escape Artist?

When you give your opponent a choice you have to assume he is going to choose in his own best interests, not yours.  In this case that means that you will only steal a creature when you would rather have not been blocked at all.  Look at the example you gave, for instance.

One game he had the jitte and became a 5/5.  My opponent blocked with a sundering titan as he was at 5.  Now I had a nice blocker that he couldn't weld out as a pinged it with the jitte during my first main phase.

If you had just had an Escape Artist instead of a Tolarian Enchanter you would have won the game that turn.  Instead you gave him an out.  Eventually someone will use the escape hatch you give him and win the game with it.

Notice that I am not advocating Escape Artist, however.  I am merely saying it is better than Tolarian Enchanter.  Spiketail Hatchling is better than either one.  If you want a creature that won't get blocked and costs two mana, run him.

Leo

[Marco]

What would an unpowered (non-proxy) deck list look like? Here's what I'm thinking:

4 Aether Vial
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Crucible of Worlds
1 Darksteel Colossus
3 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
3 Ninja of the Deep Hours
1 Tinker

4 Gaea's Skyfolk

4 Basking Rootwalla
4 Wild Mongrel

3 Flooded Strand
2 Island
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Polluted Delta
1 Strip Mine
4 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland

[thokash]

20 mana sources I think is way too light.  I think you will be wanting to replace the Moxen/Lotus with land/mana sources rather than other stuff in the deck.  Kira probably belongs in the board, so at least bring in some land for her.

Back onto the overall topic of the deck, i've been running Brainstorms over Standstills and I don't think I will ever go back.   There still HAS to be a better choice that Skyfolk out there somewhere .  Crucible is an interesting choice, especially if your running Tinker, I might have to try that in the board.

[Marco]

I think you're probably right. 20 mana sources is too light, even with 4 Brainstorm. Although I haven't been having any problems in gold fishing, with Aether Vial and the low mana curve. Sometimes I'm waiting for a third mana source to drop a Crucible or Kira. But when Crucible gets into play, I can replay fetch lands. I could probably replace the 2 Kiras for basic 2 Islands to start. I was also considering Elvish Spirit Guide for a more explosive first two turns, but that's probably a bad idea.

[Ender]

Are chalices even any good in an unpowered meta? I mean they are ok but without moxen i would believe they aren't as good while spiketail hatchlings are better because of the same reasons.