On the State of Control Slaver

[The Atog Lord]

On the State of Control Slaver

It is not common in Type One Magic for a single deck to win two large-scale tournaments back-to-back; yet that is just what happened this past weekend in New York. Control Slaver took home two victories, and in the process won two Lotuses. But, wasn’t Control Slaver supposed to be dead? Wasn’t it supposed to have been a deck for a metagame long since past? I’ll admit, even I had some doubts about the deck’s viability going into Saturday. However, as of right now, it is very difficult to dispute the deck’s results.

So, first and foremost, here are the lists. This is the list of the Rochester winner, Ugo Rivard (list from SCG’s website)
     3 Island
     4 Force of Will
     1 Library of Alexandria
     1 Strip Mine
     1 Triskelion
     1 Gifts Ungiven
     1 Echoing Truth
     1 Crucible Of Worlds
     1 Fact or Fiction
     4 Mana Drain
     1 Mystical Tutor
     4 Brainstorm
     4 Thirst For Knowledge
     1 Mindslaver
     1 Lightning Greaves
     1 Platinum Angel
     1 Seat of the Synod
     4 Polluted Delta
     4 Volcanic Island
     2 Underground Sea
     1 Black Lotus
     1 Mox Jet
     1 Mox Pearl
     1 Mox Sapphire
     1 Mox Ruby
     1 Mox Emerald
     1 Sol Ring
     1 Ancestral Recall
     1 Time Walk
     1 Demonic Tutor
     1 Tinker
     4 Goblin Welder
     1 Tolarian Academy
     1 Yawgmoth's Will
     1 Vampiric Tutor

// Sideboard:
SB: 3 Arcane Laboratory
SB: 3 Pyroclasm
SB: 3 Blood Moon
SB: 1 Echoing Truth
SB: 1 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 Rack and Ruin

The list I played in Syracuse was influenced by Ugo’s build. I spoke with him at Rochester about what worked and what did not work against the current metagame, and decided to give something similar to his build a try. In particular, the single gifts and the Greaves were his ideas. Thank you, Ugo, for giving me the confidence to play this deck on Sunday. Here is the list I won Syracuse with.

Control Slaver by Rich Shay
// Land
    2 Island
    1 Library of Alexandria
    2 Snow-Covered Island
    2 Flooded Strand
    2 Polluted Delta
    4 Volcanic Island
    2 Underground Sea
    1 Tolarian Academy

// Artifact Mana
    1 Sol Ring
    1 Mana Vault
    1 Mana Crypt
    1 Mox Sapphire
    1 Mox Ruby
    1 Mox Jet
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Mox Pearl
    1 Black Lotus
   
// Other Artifacts
    1 Lightning Greaves
    1 Triskelion
    1 Pentavus
    1 Platinum Angel
    1 Mindslaver

// Control Spells
    4 Force of Will
    4 Mana Drain
    1 Echoing Truth

// Card Draw and Manipulation
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Thirst for Knowledge
    1 Gifts Ungiven
    1 Ancestral Recall
    1 Fact or Fiction
    1 Vampiric Tutor
    1 Mystical Tutor
    1 Demonic Tutor

// The Engine
    4 Goblin Welder

// R + D Mistakes
    1 Time Walk
    1 Tinker
    1 Yawgmoth's Will

// Sideboard:
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 Darksteel Colossus
SB: 2 Blood Moon
SB: 3 Rack and Ruin
SB: 3 Pyroclasm

First off, we can see that the construction of these two decks is different from other recent Control Slaver lists, which have been trying to build the deck around either Intuition or Gifts Ungiven. The Intuition build outlined in my “Spinning the Wheels� article, as well as Goth Slaver, both have more card-draw spells than traditional Control Slaver. However, a turn spent card-drawing is also a turn spent doing little else. While casting Intuition and then AK or just hardcasting a Deep Analysis can both spring you ahead in a card-advantage war, the decks being played right now tend to run very quick clocks. Against either WTF or Gifts Belcher, there is often less time to spend in set-up than there would be against a more traditional control deck such as Keeper.

Beyond that, having either Gifts, Gifts, and Recoup or Intuition plus Deep or AK takes up a considerable amount of maindeck space, and with so many hate cards being played right now (Null Rod and Chalice) having a maindeck solution to those cards becomes necessary. And that deckspace requirement meant that fitting in either the Gifts Engine (two or more Gifts plus Recoup) or the Intuition engine (Intuition plus Deep or AK) isn’t a great option at this particular point in the metagame. Of course, if the NY results cause the metagame to flux, then they may well become strong options once again.

So, that  explains why the deck had neither the Gifts nor the Intuition “engine.â€? However, let’s examine some of the choices the deck did make. The single copy of Gifts is used very differently in this deck than it would be in a Gifts-based deck like SSB. In SSB, the card can crack a game wide open, getting Yawgmoth’s Will, Recoup, and two other cards, either mana or threats, depending on what is already in the graveyard. However, this deck does not have that option, and therefore cannot leverage Gifts as effectively as such a deck. Most often, the Gifts serves as an entomb for large artifacts, because of the fact that you can find only two cards and have them both go into your graveyard. Beyond that rather limited use, the card can make the opponent give you either two land, or two mediocre draw spells. If you haven’t drawn any of your tutors yet, you can Gift for Demonic, Mystical, and Vampiric, and one other card, and in that way find any instant or sorcery in your deck.

So, the main uses of the Gifts for me were acting as a double Entomb and as a double Lay of the Land. This meant that I often boarded the card out, because without Recoup to abuse Gifts, I would often rather resolve a Fact or Fiction. However, what the Gifts did let me do was feel confident running only a single Mindslaver, unlike most of my builds which use two. The Gifts would allow me to find that single Slaver.

Another deck choice that I made because of Ugo’s recommendation was Lightning Greaves. Throughout the course of the Syracuse tournament, I used Lightning Greaves only for Welding away. I didn’t use the Haste ability, nor did I Live the Dream and equip the Angel. In my match against WTF, both games just ended when Pentavus came to play. That leads me to two questions: are greaves good enough to make the cut? is Platinum Angel?  The Greaves give you an Illusions/Donate style win against WTF, Goblins, and various other aggro decks with limited ability to answer threats. However, most decks in the format are capable of removing the Boots, and therefore the Angel. TPS and its friends can Rebuild the Angel. Control Slaver can Weld away the Boots, and SSB can Burning Wish for something. However, if enough decks in the field cannot handle the combo, it might be worth including in the deck regardless. I am currently planning to continue to test Lightning Greaves further, because while my initial use of the card did not impress me, I can certainly see its potential.

H how about Platinum Angel herself? She was great to me all day on Sunday. Against TPS, she let me beat my opponent to death. Against GAT, while my opponent could get me to zero life, he couldn’t actually win the game with her on  the board. While the Angel isn’t amazing against control decks, she sure pulls her weight against aggro and even combo.

Where did Ugo and I differ? Crucible of Worlds. Ugo included Crucible in his build, alongside its usual companions, an artifact land and a Strip Mine. However, I elected to play Pentavus instead of Crucible, and Pentavus was great for me all day. Pentavus single-handedly beats WTF if you have a decent amount of mana on the table, and he allows a Mindslaver lock as does Crucible. I played SSB on Saturday and included Crucible in my list; I was very underwhelmed by the card. Against a deck like WTF and Goblins, the long-term card advantage and mana stability wasn’t enough to justify spending three mana on the main phase when efforts were needed to survive until the next turn. In the mirror match, I’d rather just resolve a draw spell at three mana. The odds of combining Crucible and Strip Mine are pretty low, and even that doesn’t guarantee a victory. Sure, in a deck like SSB, you can get out a Crucible and then Gifts for land; however, wouldn’t it just be easier to Win The Game if you’re resolving Gifts anyway? So, I stand by Pentavus over Crucible of Worlds, as Pentavus is an actual threat and an actual response against aggro decks, while certainly being decent against just about anything.

About Colossus. I didn’t maindeck him because I didn’t feel he deserved a maindeck slot. Colossus will, against certain decks, make a Tinker become marginally better than it otherwise would have been. However, the problem is that oftentimes a Tinker with the existing cards in the deck is plenty good. And there are very many times when a Tinker for a Triskelion or a Mindslaver would just be better than a Tinker for a Colossus anyway. And, since Colossus lacks the synergy with Goblin Welder than the other artifact creatures in the deck enjoy, he didn’t deserve a maindeck slot. I did, however, sideboard the Colossus so that I could use the turbo-Tinker plan in those matches where Tinker/Colossus is especially good, a plan made more reasonable by the inclusion of the maindeck Mystical and Vamp.

And what about those tutors? Again, the inclusion of both Mystical and Vamp was a metagame call. The downside of the tutors is that if you tutor for a card and then have it get countered, you are down two cards instead of one. As a general rule, I board out both of the card-disadvantage tutors against decks running Mana Drain. However, I expected to see fewer Mana Drains in this format than at any time in the past. The metagame has few actual control decks in it right now. And if the opponent doesn’t run a large number of counters, then the added ability of these tutors is very strong. I like Mystical over Vampiric because Mystical gets most of the cards you end up getting with Vampiric, pitches to Force of Will, and is much easier to cast than a black spell. However, until the metagame fluctuates, both spells are worth including.

Echoing Truth is a card which is a concession to the metagame’s hateful nature. I need a maindeck answer to cards like Null Rod and Chalice, and while there are other options, Truth is a generic, flexible, and inexpensive answer. At once point against WTF, I used Truth to bounce his Chalice for zero to be able to play two moxen on my next turn; this let me hardcast Pentavus. So, what about the other options for the maindeck answer spot? Cunning Wish is certainly a contender, and being able to wish for creature removal or a Rack and Ruin is very powerful. However, my fear is that the metagame is, at the moment, a bit too fast to allow the added flexibility of Cunning Wish to become worthwhile. Burning Wish is non-blue, slow, really hurts the sideboard, and moreover cannot be abused in Control Slaver like it can in SSB. Chain of Vapor costs one, making it ruined by a Chalice for one, which is part of what it is supposed to stop in the first place. Gorilla Shaman is stopped by a Chalice for one as well, and isn’t a great answer to Null Rod anyway.

One more question which I would like to post. In what ways are Control Slaver and SSB different decks, and which is a better deck to play? Let me offer a few insights, though please know that this topic is most likely worthy of its own post. SSB establishes a mana base, after which a single resolved Gifts Ungiven ends the game, unless there is some sort of disruption. The downside to the SSB plan is that disruption often makes the Gifts plan less powerful than it otherwise would be. Moreover, the entire Gifts for the win plan is predicated on the deck having a solid amount of mana in play; Gifts itself is expensive, and the Will/Recoup plan is very mana hungry. People often assume a resolved Gifts ends the game, but in reality it takes several preconditions for that to be true.

Control Slaver, on the other hand, lacks the broken game-ending instant that is Gifts. Sure, the above build uses one, but it doesn’t have anywhere near the same impact as the card does in SSB. What, then, can Control Slaver hope to say for itself? Well, it has the ability to play with Goblin Welder, and the tools to abuse Goblin Welder much more strongly than SSB, which runs fewer big scary artifacts. Thirst for Knowledge is a very different card in Control Slaver than it is in SSB; in SSB, Thirst is a nice little draw spell, but hardly anything game-ending. However, in Control Slaver, Thirst is pretty much a must-counter. The high count of scary artifacts combined with four Welders makes Thirst into a broken card. Further, Control Slaver can function off fewer mana than SSB, thereby making it less harmed by cards like Null Rod and Chalice.

So, in conclusion, Control Slaver remains a viable deck in today’s metagame. Care must be taken to update the list for a constantly shifting environment, and moreover any list from today may become outdated tomorrow. For some time, I believed that Control Slaver would  not be a strong choice in this metagame. Control Slaver is at its best against control decks, of which there are very few in the environment (no, SSB is not a control deck). Moreover, its match against SSB is often weak. However, I was overestimating the popularity of SSB, and at the moment people aren’t packing the Welder hate that can become so powerful against Control Slaver. I didn’t see a single Lava Dart all weekend.

I hope this helps to start a discussion on Control Slaver in today’s metagame. I would be interested in hearing what you have to say.

[amidtownrocker]

Well I have to just start off and say, congratulations Rich. Way to represent us New Englanders on Sunday. Now to elaborate on a big difference between SSB and CS is the mana base. You stated SSB needs time to develop a large mana base so their Gifts really does end the game. With the sudden rise of Fish and WTF I think this is a huge liability. Decks that pack 5 strip effects and a way to shut off moxen or just stop them from coming down is a nightmare for SSB. As an advid Fish player, in my testing I found my matchup against SSB to be far much more favorable than CS. Against SSB, most games came down to me Wasting their land and following up with pressure. However CS is still not the best of matchups but I consider it close to a 50/50 match with niether deck having a def advantage preboard.

In round 6 of Rochester, I was 4-1 and needed just one more win to top 8, and I was paired against Ugo Rivard who was also 4-1, so I can speak from experience in that matchup. This may be a bold statement but there is only one reason in my eyes that he beat me game 1, the lone Crucible in his deck. He drew it and cast it on turn 2, with a Stripmine in play. I was unable to pull out of that hole and fell that game after a still well faught fight. In game 2, the same thing happened, I lost to a Crucible/Strip lock. Im not saying I would have def won both games if he had not drawn into the Crucible/Strip but I had a good shot. Now on the other hand, if that Crucible were a Pentavus instead, I would have cast a Swords on it and proceded to make land drops and drop down threats and have a good shot at winning. Even if I didnt have the Swords to cast on Pentavus, Pentavus doesn't stop me from playing spells as the Crucible strip does, the Pentavus just shuts off my Attack step until I find an answer. I have a chance of pulling out of an early Pentavus but little to no shot of pulling out of an early Crucible Strip. Also take into account casting Pentavus isnt always as easy as a Crucible.

As I can see it Control Slaver is back, and it is back with a force. Now you all must figure out which way is the best to play it. With the bus, or without. With Crucible or without. Also take into account a rise in CS means a rise in Welder hate, which as we know, is a plenty.

Rich Meyst

[Luiggi]

Great post, Rich! I actually opened a post to discuss the viability of Goth Slaver in this metagame, so I guess we now have both sides of the coin, .

Just a few thoughts on your points:

- Lightning Greaves: one of the Canadians I played at Rochester recommended it after our match finished, saying that it's great with Platinum Angel. I think that it's mostly just "cute", and that you'd be better served with something else, either another answer or another threat, perhaps a 2nd Slaver, that would allow you to cut the Gifts, that didn't really seem optimal from your description of how you used it in Syracuse...

- Gifts Ungiven: honestly, if you're not running the Gifts combo suite I can't say I like it all that much. From the uses you described for it (dumping two artifacts, getting two lands) I think you'd be better off with something else. Since I play Goth Slaver I'm tempted to say "Add Intuition". Without AKs or DA it won't be as good as in Goth Slaver, but you can still search out artifacts to dump or find a Welder/FoW in a pinch.

- Platinum Angel: she was outstanding for me all day long in Rochester and I'd never take her out, since many decks just scoop to Angel when backed by Mana Drain and FoW. I would, however, run her in addition to Trike and Pentavus, as you did. My mistake in Rochester was not having a 5-power beater like Pentavus in addition to Platz, so I ended up with a 5-turn clock instead of a 4-turn clock.

- Pentavus over Crucible: I can totally see where you're coming from with this. Crucible+Strip were great for me in Rochester, but then again I had the Intuitions to set them up. I'm tempted to run both in my Goth Slaver list, since they can serve different purposes, but in Control Slaver I think Pantybus is the right call. amidtownrocker makes a good point about Crucible being nuts vs. some decks, and that's why I run it in GS.

I also like the Colossus in the SB, as well as the rest of your SB. Since you're so familiar with the deck I'd be really interested to hear how you SB'd for the main matchups in Syracuse. I just always found myself wanting to bring in more cards than I had to take out... I'm especially curious to hear what you side your Chalices in against, as well as Blood Moon.

All in all I think your decklist is really tight, and I'm glad you were convinced to run this on Sunday, !

Luiggi

[Revvik]

Congratulations on Sunday!  Now where do I go to find out exactly what the hell happened?  Seriously, all the talk was about Rochester, and this is hardly fair to those in Syracuse.

Maybe I'm just blind.

[Xenoben187]

I ran a list actually very similar to this at rochester and just missed out on top 8, my only 2 losses going to shockwave and dicemanx in the 5th and 8th round.
Gifts is very strong on it's own and I don't feel it needs recoup to justify playing the card (as I actually talked to rich about prior to rochester).  It's a plain out great draw spell that is as efficient as intuition+ak and giving +1 more CA.  If you gifts for Acall, Time walk, mystical/demonic, and tinker, they are forced to give you acall/timewalk, because if they give you one of the other 2 you win anyways.  I did it a couple times at rochester and didn't lose a single game I resolved gifts.  Also, running gifts in slaver allows you to run recoup/dsc in the board if you so wish to board into that combo (I did several times in rochester).
Control slaver is an amazing deck, but I feel is going to take a big hit come saviors when any deck can play a colorless answer to welder, not to mention all the hate is going to come back now because of Ugo and Rich.

[bedafile]

I think Gifts loses something when you play without Strip/Synod/Crucible. I have a feeling that's what Ugo played it for. I don't have a recomendation for the slot however I agree it's a weak card in your build.

I think Greaves will get better as more people experiement with WTF as a counter to Jitte.

[CrazyCarl]

I think Gifts loses something when you play without Strip/Synod/Crucible. I have a feeling that's what Ugo played it for. I don't have a recomendation for the slot however I agree it's a weak card in your build.

I think Greaves will get better as more people experiement with WTF as a counter to Jitte.

It loses a sub-optimal trick?  People flat out lose to Crucible, it happens.  I would much rather just get out a Darksteel Colossus or Belcher my opponent out.  Granted, Ugo could have completely locked Peter in the finals with Crucible, but that takes a long time, and topdecked in the late game it can be complete ass.  I completely agree with Rich with not running it.  IIRC he said that it was horrible all day long on Saturday.

[The Atog Lord]

IIRC he said that it was horrible all day long on Saturday.

It was. As has been established here, no doubt, having Crucible in your deck will win you games. But, at the same time, having Fireball in your deck will also win you games. Just not enough. The real question is, which card will win you more games, Crucible or Pentavus? Having played Crucible in my CS/SSB build for three tournaments, I feel that the card is underpowered and does not do enough for inclusion in the deck.

[StarOrc]

In my experience Crucible never seemed underpowered just more of a subtle card that does a lot of things. Granted Strip-Lock happens (I've had mono-red under Chill with Strip-Lock before) but thats not where I saw the card being the most useful. The card always seemed to be amazing against Fish and Workshop based decks that ran 5 Strip effects. Not only does the card make these LD plans completely irrelevant but it garauntees fetching after every brainstorm and the long term card advantage from using a fetch every turn can change the game. Personnally I see the card being a better card now that Fish is starting to Top-8 again and Wastelands stock is rising. Although the card doesn't feel right in SSB it seems like a great fit in a Slaver build preparing to beat Fish.

Corey

[TheDB]

I think Greaves will get better as more people experiement with WTF as a counter to Jitte.

I see this as one of the main reasons to run the greaves.  I noticed more and more people using jitte and if it gets active you will have a hard time getting a welder past summoning sickness.

[Luiggi]

The problem remains that if your opponent has a Jitte with some counters on it they can kill your Welder/Platz in response to your equipping the Greaves, since it happens at sorcery-speed,  .

Luiggi

[Moridar]

I'd say that the Lightning Greaves are a good solution.  If your GW was going to die to an instant it would happen on your end step anyway...  No real loss.  But if it resolves you've got yourself a well protected GW or any other creature that you'd rather not see die.

Wayne

[Smmenen]

I am curious what you think the impact of Needle will be on a deck like this.  Naming Goblin Welder on turn one seems like a powerful play which weakens your ability to drop artifacts into the bin with Thirst.  Subsequent Needles can turn off Slaver or Pentavus. 

[Revvik]

Would it go,
Turn 1: Pithing Needle, naming Goblin Welder.
Turn 2: Null Rod (effectively stops Tinker into Mindslaver and Pentavus)
and if they're splashing White, Swords to Plowshares for Platinum Angel / non-evasive Pentavus.  Red, Rack & Ruin.

Victory isn't out of the question, but it's an uphill struggle in the face of something like this.  Granted, I have seen Control Slaver decks do some wacky shit...

[Luiggi]

I guess a full complement of Rack and Ruins will become even more necessary now, due to the sheer amount of Pithing Needles, Chalice of the Void, Null Rod and other disruptive artifacts the metagame will contain...

Luiggi

[MacDad_TN]

What does everyone think about a couple of Gorilla Shamans in the maindeck.  Not only can it get rid of Pithing Needle (assuming they don't name the Shaman), but we all know that it is great for blowing up moxes, chalices for 0 and 1, phyrexian furnaces, tormod's crypts, insert artifact that is annoying to play against in CS.  I play in a pretty weak metagame, but in the limited testing I have done, it has worked very well for me.  It was hard to work in, but for my metagame I decided to cut 1 brainstorm and a mystical tutor out of a very typical CS build.  I would like to know how it plays out in a bigger tournament.

[Luiggi]

The main problem as I see it is exactly what you mentioned: in order to make room for the Shamans youi had to cut two pretty darned good cards, in this case Brainstorm #4 and the Mystical Tutor... From having played various Slaver variants I can't say I'd ever want to run less than the full complement of Brainstorms, and while I generally haven't used Mystical Tutor (I've used Goth Slaver more than traditional CS) I can see that it is very important in a deck like CS...

I like the idea of some maindeck Mox Monkeys, but not at the expense of those two cards. Other thoughts on this?

Luiggi

[MacDad_TN]

I agree about not wanting to lose those 2 cards.  The only reason I was able to get away with it, was due to the fairly weak environment that I play in.  For a larger tournament, I would have to do some serious thinking about which 2 cards can afford to be cut.  Its not an easy decission, but I think the Mox Monkeys are definately worth running.  Not only do they have to waste a plow or counter to keep them off the table, which is one less for your welders, but if he does hit the table, you can wreck just about their entire plan of stopping you.  Worst case you blow up their mana base.  Best case you stop their hate for your deck.

[seer]

You could definately cut the lightning greaves for a mox monkey.

[Dralock]

I believe as well that gorilla shaman are a very good way to start your slaver day.

Vial fish, and needle fish (which also run vials) have the powder keg effect in their playstyle. They have to wait the turns to get the counters. Even if you go second, they will not get to two counters before you can blow their vial out of the water (assuming you get SOME sort of accel).

Also, vs oath you get their mana, vs affinity you get their clamps and just about everything else. Late game if you topdeck him and resolve you can get around a crucible, or SoTF, or a multitude of other threats.

Also, shaman can get rid of pesky chalices, therefore letting through your wÃœndermana, their chalice for 1, blowing up their jittes, moxen, etc all day long while you drain their threats and thirst your deck away. I know that you all have used the shaman before, and I am not bringing anything up. But in judging the effectiveness of a shaman over, say, mystical tutor, I do not think that enough thought is being put in to what the monkey brings to the table.

I believe that only one of them will really be needed, as you can side in more if you want.

On mystical tutor:

You already have vampiric tutor. Mystical - recall turns in to vampiric - recall, or demonic - recall. You are dropping a tutor for a threat. The only thing mystical tutor has going for it is that its a tutor and it can be pitched to force. But you have plenty to pitch to force anyway, so whats the point really?

I wouldn't pull a brainstorm out for a shaman. I would look elsewhere if you want to bring on the moxious goodness, brainstorm is just too good not to have four of.

*edit*

@rleidle - No, you cannot cut greaves for a monkey. Greaves adds something to slaver that there is no substitute for. I can't believe no one has thought of this before now, but I guess removal is starting to actually show up in the meta. Shaman cannot protect your welder from a jitte, or SoFI, or even trike, but greaves can, and it can do it cheaply.

[StarOrc]

Not to nit-pick but Lightining Greaves may have been used before with no results. I for one thought about using the greaves when Dart was first becoming popular and disgarded them because I was pretty sure they would just be -1 card advantage most of the time and a dead card the rest. Also I'm pretty sure that TAL had them in a build before he brought Slaver to themanadrain. To me Greaves still looks sketchy but when I get around to playing Slaver again I will probably test them. It feels like its just a very weak card in a deck full of bombs that win you the game. In my experience with Slaver I rarely had a problem winning through other means if my opponent was dead-set on killing my welders. Also I've never liked P. Angel so using greaves on that just seems rather silly to me.

Corey

[Hi-Val]

Greaves is pretty worthless because removal is pretty worthless against Slaver, in the end. If your opponent has killed your welders, you burn a tutor for Will, cast Will and cast Welders and then find Time Walk and slavelock them the next turn. Welders have always been bait, and Greaves doesn't seem to do much to protect them since it is slow. I'd rather be casting more draw or a tutor instead of Greaves, which are only good when you have a welder out and still only good unless your opponent already has their removal in hand.

[Xenoben187]

I once heard a saying, if you're welding, you're already winning.  Thus the only reason I could see wanting to have greaves is for the hasty welder, because after you've welded, you should be winning.  I'm not condoning this in any way, but I wonder if anyone has ever tested Anger in CS?  Seems like a good thing to pitch to thirst, and could even be gifted out into the GY, and if your welders come down hasty, removal is pretty much a moot point (EoT gifts out slaver + Anger), cast welder and slave before lavadart even has a chance.

Otherwise I agree, why would you want to have greaves when you could have a counterspell to simply stop their threat to your welder, a scrying to take control of the game or another gifts to just jump ahead in CA?

[Luiggi]

You meant "Anger", right? .

Luiggi

[Revvik]

It's been done in G/R Survival decks (the shop-less Tools-n-Tubbies).  Hasted welders are pretty good, but Anger just doesn't seem as reliable in Control Slaver as it does in decks running Survival of the Fittest.

[Xenoben187]

You meant "Anger", right? .

Luiggi

Yes, yes I did.  Thank you, I was in the middle of studying for a fluids dynamics test when i posted that...  My head wasn't exactly on straight.

I agree it wouldn't be as strong as it would be in shopless survival but I think it would be tons stronger than lightning greaves.

[Moridar]

It is the creature count that hurts Lightning Greaves.  You have 4 Goblin Welders, Pentavus and Platinum Angel.  The creature count is too low to support it.  While it helps keep GW alive longer against the top decked burn spells...  If you add more untility creatures to the deck then it increases the performance you need out of Lightning Greaves.   Too many creatures and the deck ends up becoming something else...

Wayne

[aTn]

On mystical tutor:

You already have vampiric tutor. Mystical - recall turns in to vampiric - recall, or demonic - recall. You are dropping a tutor for a threat. The only thing mystical tutor has going for it is that its a tutor and it can be pitched to force. But you have plenty to pitch to force anyway, so whats the point really?

The Mystical is there to pitch in a Gifts Ungiven. Suppose you don't have a tutor in hand and you cast Gifts for:

Mystical Tutor
Demonic Tutor
Vampiric Tutor
something else say, Ancestral Recall.

Because you have 3 tutors in your Gifts, your opponent has to give you one in your hand. This gives you access to Yawmoth's Will ... I think that is what Ugo put in his Gifts.

[kl0wn]

Why does everyone in this thread think that Monkey is an answer to Chalice for 1?

[vroman]

Jim Erlinger - URW Control Slaver - 1st place Ogres Cards Ancestral Recall tournament

4 mana drain
4 force of will
4 thirst for knowledge
4 brainstorm
4 goblin welder
3 swords to plowshares
1 balance
1 ancestral recall
1 time walk
1 fact or fiction
1 mystical tutor
1 crucible of worlds
1 triskelion
1 pentavus
1 duplicant
1 tinker
1 jesters cap
1 mindslaver
1 platinum angel
1 sol ring
1 mana crypt
1 black lotus
1 mana vault
1 mox jet
1 mox saphire
1 mox pearl
1 mox ruby
1 mox emerald
4 volcanic island
3 tundra
2 island
1 seat of the synod
2 polluted delta
2 flooded strand
1 tolarian academy

Side
1 sundering titan
3 echoing truth
1 bribery
1 acquire
3 arcane laboratory
2 rack and ruin
2 viashino heretic
2 starstorm


balance and swords vs black tutors and yawg will. the logic being that there is virtually no combo in the STL meta, and thus swords are going to take out people's creature based wins. furthermore since slaver is already a great choice against the field, yawg will becomes almost win more, while balance will decimate an opponent when you are in a losing position.