[Premium Article] Meandeck Gifts

[Whatever Works]

Why is there such a concern about fish? It appears that it is already starting to fade out of the metagame (or at least in New England). This could be seen by the incredibly large number of players who played workshop aggro combined with the legalization of Pithing Needle which is nothing less that a huge bomb vs. fish. Playing it naming either wasteland/Vial/Jitte/Mongrel/Rootwalla etc. can just end the game. Also gifts decks never struggled to beat fish anyway. Toads old version crushed fish, and the same applys with this version. That being said Pyroclasm and Old man of the sea probably arent neccessary, and seasinger is probably stronger then old man of the sea considering nobody is playing lava dart currently (even though Rich Shay has won about 15 of his last 16 rounds that he hasnt drawn).

A credit to this deck is its ability to completly romp control slaver. The last version did the same thing, but this version is clearly no different in results.

I did a little experiment basically to test the need for misdirection in the deck. I took the list played by DicemanX that he played extremely well to a 2nd place finish at Rochester and dropped 2 furnaces from the maindeck (which most people believe is the decks weakest card), and then in those 2 spots added 2 merchant scroll. I then dropped the basic swamp for a lotus petal, and then 2nd scrying (his 61st card). I then added a gifts ungiven to the sideboard as the 4th (sinse the deck runs cunning wish), and switched the maindeck echoing truth for rebuild, because there are very few creatures/enchantments etc. that the worries about especially with cunning wish. After doing this the deck was about 5 to 8 cards different (i will write something more accurate later). With the basic changes be no misdirections (not that I dont like them but purely to test how the deckplays without them), and then running 2 less merchant scrolls (really only 1 less tutor considering the addition of cunning wish). In these spots the deck fit in 3 thirst for knowledge a skeletal scrying, and a gorilla shaman (I just chose shaman because the card worked wonders for me when I ran it as a 1 of in syracuse). Also the noteable inclussion of Duress a card that I really really liked in the deck primarily as a 2 of because you can gifts for it late, or you can use it to set up the tutor that MUST resolve, and duress does fit that role suprisingly well.

The result: Basically the same accept generally a half turn slower, but more of a midgame. The deck didnt lose as any counter wars, but it curtainly wasnt as explosive. The deck did miss misdirection a little bit, but I thought that the mix between just a few less tutors (which is still a ridicules # of 7), and more draw worked well.

Meandeck Gifts I have found to play extremely aggessively, and if you dont play it that way then typically your playing it wrong. The deck relies heavily on resolving the first merchant scroll (and its target), and then resolving gifts (because if gifts resolves you can ensure that everything else likely will to). The deck is strictly commited to resolving gifts in the same way that tog was strictly committed to drawing cards, and in the same way that Kevin Cron's stax deck has the common belief that every card is a lock piece or gets a lock, or is a kill card that is still a lock piece (IE Shaman/Karn). From how I stated this it could appear that being commited to a sole strategy is a good thing (which it is), but there has to be a fine line between aggression, dedication, and most importantly balance and stability.

This deck definetly has the focus, and an aggression that seperates itself. However, I am not sure that it has the ability to play the control route when needed. This can force the deck into unwanted circumstances at times. In short I dont know if this deck as it currently is can play as a successful aggro control deck like many of the other best decks in the format, or in this decks case Combo/Control thats agressive in nature. Even with the 11 counters against alot of decks its essentailly 8 (Misdirection is dead vs. several decks), and the deck could be considered to be running only 4 counters  because of the often uncastablility of mana drain.

This begs the question is it worth considering giving up a little bit of speed and deck focus to increase the decks ability to play as the control deck when neccessary. The deck can currently only be played one specific way with any kind of success, and though its true that you have to play decks such as 2 land belcher etc. just one way is that always advantageous? I feel that the deck basically has to try to force its combo upon the oponent, and basically hope that it wins the counter war over the first ancestral, and the first gifts. Thats why I believe that maybe losing a small ammount of acceleration in 2 merchant scroll for maybe 2 copys of duress, and possibly a misdirection for cunning wish could make a HUGE difference in the ability to consistently resolve gifts that if countered can act as a huge loss of tempo.

I also tried running Boseiju in the deck and it was absolutely incredible and should be seriously considered sinse in this deck especially it is incredibly easy to tutor for.

Kyle leith

[Smmenen]

Putting aside the whole question of Duress for the moment becuase I consider it a relatively unimportant issue (becuase it isn't that good in the metagame right now, for example), I'll talk about whether this deck can play the control role.

I think one thing you have to decide is what your hand is bests suited to do.  If you get the explosive hand, then you go for it.  But not infrequently, you will draw the slow hand and you can really play control well there. 

I have noticed that there is probably only going to be one or two big counterwars in any given game.  If Gifts wins the first counterwar, then it will probably win the game. If it wins the first but loses the second, I think it is still either players game. 

Looking back on my testing, I remember playing games where my hand was 7 cards and my board was 4-5 mana and my opponent couldn't do anything becuase I had Misd, FoW, Drain, Gifts and 3 other blue cards just waiting to play my Gifts at the right time.  I think that if you win the fight over Ancestra or Gifts, you should be able to leverage that into a win so long as your opponent doesn't win first.  I think once people try Misdirection, it will be harder to return to Duress.

As for your changes, i'm not sure I really consider Thirst to be "real draw" when you are discarding a mox and Scrying is usually either for 2 cards in the early game or a million in the late game where a Gifts would have won you the game anyway. 

I as honestly surprised that you didn't find the Gift.fr list to have trouble with Fish.  I think that is why Diceman had so much hate in his SB.  The Mana Drain decks have fundamentally weak games against Fish in my experience.

[MaxxMatt]

hi steve.
this time I wrote only for you and not for the deck itself.

Last time you proposed a deck I underlined the bad things, that were more important that the good ones.


I waited a bit on writing in this thread because of the lack of actual data from my own experience to discuss of.

After a bit of testing, I can tell to you that this time I'm very happy about what I tested and that you proposed to us.
The deck is really cool and really well equipped to win a lot.
Good job!.


Being a bit more constructive, I have to underline a couple more points.


1) The deck, as WhaterverWorks underlined with his own tests a page before and as I can confirm at now, is really weak against TPS. !!!Really Weak!!! doesn't mean that You lose every game, but it means that it cannot win more that 40% of the games. While any good build with Duress+Drain+FoW+GoodEngine could perform better than your deck against TPS, you have to rely on CotVs during game 2 and 3 to win. Even if you are supposed to try to goldfish as speedy as you can against TPS, it remains a fully turn faster than you on achieving the winning goal.
And it is bad. You have at least 3 dead cards ( Mis-Ds ) and you have no Duresses or Mindtwist to crush hi s hand. This is the only wekness of this deck compared to TPS. If he would start slowly, he would lose this matchup. If he can manage to resolve one of his impressive bombs during turn 1 or 2, you are lost ( as are usually lost the decks that pack only Drain+FoW as protections against Storm-Comboes decks ).
Playing post-side games, and siding in CotVs, would let you win more than before and it is really comfortable from my own point of view.


2) Tog-based decks and a lot of good control decks, aren't in general such an issue ONLY if they went second and ESPECIALLY if they don't resolve a lot of Duresses during their first or second turn of play. While Merchants Scrolls are good at finding bombs in your deck, as I previously tested on my own, you are relying ONLY on Brainstorms about hiding things to opponent's Duresses and they aren't always enough. While your clock is good and your strategy is powerful, you can win A LOT against Tog and C-Slavery ESPECIALLY if they aren't aware of your aggressive deck's configuration. If they would know about the lack of Duresses and the massive presence of tutors, in order to maximize a gigantic but easily builtable Y Will, they would paly differently. "Playing differently",  from their own point of view, usually means that they are aware of your own style and strategy and they are going to maximize their own spells in order to minimize yours. If they play carefully, their winning path can onyl consist on barring their own defences on countering yours Gifts and you are always reduced into a topdecking mode, if you exclude some few mana fixers spells as Braisntorms.

Try to focus a bit more about the smart opponent that is aware of your strenght and that counter your ONLY way to achieve two spells after playing only one: Gifts Ungiven. He can keep all his Duresses and Counters and Wishes for them and he can open the path of his own victory only focusing on countering the right things. I found that this strategy isn't always victoriousus against Gifts.dec and his RAW POWER, but it is the most effective all arount at now.

3) The deck is good. The opponents against you played have been adeguate to the deck that you proposed to them? Are they a good test? I was toying about this idea, not only because I lost a couple of games more than the ones that you suggested that could be lost by this deck, but because of the arguments that you do around your winning strategy. While Mis-D are the perfect fit to protect your own gifts, they are pretty useless in a lot of cases. They are ZERO against Labs, Skeletals, TFKs, Y Wills, Pillars, Creatures, Welders.dec, Artifact.decs, Storm.decs, Bombs.dec and Hate.decs. They are good ESPECiALLY against A FEW AMONG THE Tier1s. But... against the other always played decks? how the performed to you? How they played a winning role? If you are a turn shorter than you opponent to win, and you passed the turn with a Mis_D in your hand, would it be better to have a Duress in your deck only to check his hand and eventually stop the Bomb that Mis_D wouldn't have countered the next turn? Even if Duresses are ( usually, depending on your own mana development ) a full turn slower than Mis_D, some times, would be better to have a good spell to play to react to some "I WIN" opponent's spells instead of holding a reactive spell that shine only while resolving your own spells?

4) OTOH,  I'm very satisfited about the deck's configuration. I played a lot against Aggro and Aggro_Control decks and I lost only one games or two for a total of more that 15-20 matches. I played carefully even against other Control decks. I found myself that if I would have maindecked Duresses instead of Mis_Ds, I would have won more against Combo.decs but I would have lost a few games more against Control decks, so the rate of Winning/Losing is the same, excluding the cases of some Control or Combo filled metagmaes, in which you HAVE to choose the right cards instead of blindly playing what is suggested on net.

5) I do not read your article. Sorry, but I'm not a premium articles' fan. OTOH, I think that my own experience about those control-combo decks, could support me on argumenting and discussing things as if I previously read your lines. I'm sure that you are not considerning Combo as your "Public_Enemy_#1", because of your own maindeck configuration and I have nothing to suggest to you about it at now, because I'm discovering the multiple choices of the deck yet.

6) You are referring about a "better Gift's Based maindeck configuration" during your last answers to some previous asks. I think that the configuration that you proposed is the BEST ONE to abuse of the opponent's lack of strategy against your own creation. Sadly for us, it is a temporarily better condition. Leave to the smart opponent a good two weeks of work and he would be able to beat your own deck more comfortably. At now, because of his inherent innovative structure, it is more abusable than any other Gifts.dec, but I don't think that it would be a stable condition. After a couple of weeks of plays, you would be more attracted to a less aggressive deck's configuration, that, instead of building fast wins, would give you more SECURE wins. I found my self losing to the same hate that is used to play against Workshop.dec and Dragon.dec. Tormod's Crypts and CotVs and Rods and specific control-denial strategies are ones of your worst enemies, even if you are the most well equipped deck to support them.


7) Maybe my answer is fully answered into your article, but is your Sideboard really innovative as your maindeck or not? Are you relying on the usual utilities and the usualy bombs that a good Gifts.dec can abuse of? thanks in advance.


8) I found that, game after game and mach after match, I'm going to master the deck better than before.
This is really satisfing from my own point of view. I like to play NOT-flat decks that can underline the players skills rather then underlining their own strenght.
Talking about the possible opponent's at now, too many decks aren't an issue at al for the Gifts.dec that you proposedl.
A few decks are going to be able to win against me if they would out-play me. But it is only about skills and draws.
Only a deck can out-play me, play his own "solo-game" and win agaisnt me, regardeless how well I'm playing ( TPS ). This is a bit frustrating
Which is your Sideboard strategy against it?



Again good job.
MaxxMatt







PS- Edit for Grammar.

[cosineme]

I know that you don't want to talk about duress because currently it isn't a factor in the meta, however in your article you talk about how often 1st turn merchant scroll for recall is the wrong play because it can be easily duressed out of hand.

Now in this thread you advocate playing aggressive mode, going for the turn 1 recall so that you can recall with drain back up turn 2...which is it?

[Saucemaster]

I know that you don't want to talk about duress because currently it isn't a factor in the meta, however in your article you talk about how often 1st turn merchant scroll for recall is the wrong play because it can be easily duressed out of hand.

Now in this thread you advocate playing aggressive mode, going for the turn 1 recall so that you can recall with drain back up turn 2...which is it?

There's a pretty common-sense answer to this apparent contradiction.

Do you know that your opponent is playing Duress, and do you have reason to fear it?  Then don't walk into it.  Do you have no particular reason to suspect a Duress?  Then play it aggressively, as stated.  Steve's point, as I read it, is that the default option, without stipulating anything about the opposing deck, should be aggressive play.  No rule is universal, and a good player will always be willing to break the rules in any situation where the rule is obviously counterproductive.

[Chamelet]

Looks solid to me.  Your draw engine theory - one short burst as quickly as possible - really plays to the strengths of Gifts.  It seems to me that one of the keys to doing well with the deck must be good situational decision making with Gifts - you are relying on it as an important draw spell and tutor as well as a one card combo.  Would you mind writing just a bit about what some common Gifts configurations are for you?  I don't need the game winning arrangements; I think I have a handle on those.  I am more interested in some common situation-specific choices.

Thanks,
Leo

Am I the only one to realize that Gifts is also Card Advantage? Not only that, but it´s a double tutor.
I love Merchant Scroll. I was inserting 1-2 in my version of Gifts (3 Gifts, 1 Scrying, 3 TfK, 2 Needle, Colossus Kill, w/ 2 Gorilla Shamans MD!). Now you ruined my surprise! Well, that´s fine anyway. Maybe I´ll also trade my duresses for misdirection so I can up the basic count.

I love the idea on the deck and still haven't tested it, but it seems to me that if it loses a single counter war it will lose so much tempo that it is probably doomed. What I liked in other Gifts builds its that you could lose counter wars just to make your opponent lose counters. It seems to me that in this build every single spell is crucial, and then your game plan is hosed if one of those spells fizzles. I know the Misdirections are there for this, but how often do you lose too many cards in your hand so you can call it a tempo loss?

Playing duresses is bad because it forces you to fetch for black. That's bad when you're trying to protect the combo (and a mana dependant combo).

I also think Boseiju is a good card to try out. If the deck wants to resolve spells (and save counters, 'cause you have 7 pitch counters), Boseiju is great. The only problem is that it delays you one turn. And that is a LOT.

Someone mentioned Erayo. I was thinking: it protects Colossus forever. Maybe it's a good thing. Erayo + Rebuild is GOOD! The problem is you can't tutor Erayo, and you won't play him as a 4-of. You would better Rebuild and Tendrils for the win than Erayo for the almost win.

Anyway, I'll try the deck out, and I'll also try a couple of Engineered Explosives (against CotV) and Pithing Needle (against everything) sideboard.

[Xenoben187]

I know that you don't want to talk about duress because currently it isn't a factor in the meta, however in your article you talk about how often 1st turn merchant scroll for recall is the wrong play because it can be easily duressed out of hand.

Now in this thread you advocate playing aggressive mode, going for the turn 1 recall so that you can recall with drain back up turn 2...which is it?

If you know your opponent is playing duress, or you might suspect he can get rid of your recall, there's no reason you can't scroll up something else i.e. force, brainstorm, drain, gifts, fact.  In fact, it's probably better in a control mirror to do that.  Playing scroll aggressively does not have to mean going straight for the recall.

[jcb193]

Has twincast been tried for this deck? 

[Luiggi]

I think Misdirection is strictly better... Using it on your opponent's Ancestral Recall is much better than Twincasting it, because you draw 3 cards and your opponent doesn't draw any. A Twincast would still get you 3 cards, but you'd need to have double Blue available, and on top of that your opponent would still get to resolve his Ancestral (unless you end up countering it).

Going back to what Steve outlined as the basic plan of attack for the deck, step 1 is finding and resolving your Ancestral Recall, and Misdirection lets you steal your opponents even when you're tapped out. If we're playing aggressively, as Steve has suggested, then it's highly likely that we won't have the double-Blue mana available to Twincast their spell, a fact backed up by Steve's comment on how the card most usually pitched to Force of Will/Misdirection is Mana Drain, because of the lack of double-Blue mana.

For this deck free counters like Force of Will and Misdirection are just better, I believe.

Luiggi

[Smmenen]

It's not so much that I don't have two blue - but that people almost never walk into mana drain - so I'll have UU up on your turn, but you don't do anything so I tap down on your endstep to play Gifts and pitch the Mana Drain to the Misdirection to force the Gifts through.

[Luiggi]

Sure. I thought that was what you meant by playing aggressively, i.e. not necessarily waiting til you have Drain mana up to cast your first Gifts, as in the situation you just outlined. If they were to try and Recall in response to your Gifts you'd have the option of Misdirecting it onto you, whereas a Twincast would be purely FoW/Mis-D fodder.

Luiggi

[Smmenen]

Just to be clear - it isn't that you don't have drain mana - you do - the point is that if your opponent isn't doing anything, then you should tap that mana down and play Gifts on their endstep.  If you don't, you are just letting them build more cards in their hand. 

[jcb193]

I wouldn't say strictly better....

MisD- Useless if opponent doesn't cooperate
Twin- At least sometimes useful to double up your spells, though that might be win more. 

[Smmenen]

The point of Misd is that it is cheaper than Duress for the same purpose and speeds up your game plan by a turn or slightly less.  Yes twincast is strictly inferior for that purpose. 

[Luiggi]

Just to be clear - it isn't that you don't have drain mana - you do - the point is that if your opponent isn't doing anything, then you should tap that mana down and play Gifts on their endstep.  If you don't, you are just letting them build more cards in their hand.

Yeah, I got that. I think the phrasing of my last message was just a bit confusing, . What I meant by "not necessarily waiting til you have Drain mana up to cast your first Gifts" is that you're not going to wait until you have 6 mana in total (including UUU), so that you can Gifts + Drain at the same time...

Luiggi

[doylehancock]

Steve I tested it like I told you I would.  My big issues (before testing) were STP (that shit gives me nightmares) and not running duress.

I found after testing that Misdirection can be better than duress in a lot of was.  In one game I went turn one scroll (for recall) but in response to my scroll they recalled themselves. I used misdirection pitching drain and I drew 6 cards.  Granted normally they will have the FOW but thats why he recalled hoping to draw into it.

I use to run misdirection in UR landstill when I first built it and found it great to handle hate and the same holds true for this deck.  I was worried about STP but I had a misdirection to handle that and if I didnt I would scroll up something.  This deck does abuse gifts though I am still uncertain about 4 I do like this deck alot.

I listened to what you had to say and you were right this deck does do some amazing things.  I wonder if some portal tutors could replace the scrolls.  Just a thought.

I am now convinced this is a good deck and I will be running it for a few weeks until I find something else.  Great job Steve.

[49 Cents]

I wonder if some portal tutors could replace the scrolls.  Just a thought.

I think not, because you can cast Scroll turn 1 of a land and a Mox, and the card goes directly into your hand, not wasting a draw..

[Webster]

Putting aside the whole question of Duress for the moment becuase I consider it a relatively unimportant issue (becuase it isn't that good in the metagame right now, for example), I'll talk about whether this deck can play the control role.

@Smmenen
Realize that metagames are relevant to location. Using the blanket statement that "becuase it isn't that good in the metagame right now" is quite narrow and uninsightful. In my metagame, Northern California, duress is quite good and is included in a high percentage of decks in any given tournament.

Maybe you can elaborate as to why duress is "bad" in your metagame, the New England area from what I understand, which to my current knowledge is a haven for control. Surely the fields of mana drains, goblin welders, gifts, etc. have not been overrun by tiny fishes, goblins, and rampaging juggernauts.

I've tested this deck against control mirrors, aggro-control, and combo-control, archetypes where misdirection _should_ be at its best and have not been impressed enough to warrent leaving my duress at home.


Web

[Smmenen]

Well, I think the key reason is this:

Wasteland is effing everywhere.  Just look at Phil's stats for May and June.  Wasteland has returned and it has returned with a vengence.  Not only is it in Fish and the Workshop decks - which is almost half the field - it is in a huge number of control decks people are playing like Landstill and Oath.  It explains why Bazaars are doing so poorly right now. 

Duress requires that you either get a Swamp (which I had in my gifts list when I used Duresses) or that you get an Underground Sea and risk getting it Wastelanded. 

The fundamental and most most most most critical thing that causes Control decks to lose is mana problems.  If a deck like this gets its mana going, it is like a juggernaut - almost impossible to stop. The same could be said of most of the Mana Drain decks.  But tie up the mana base like Fish or Workshop decks try to do, and you can win the game.  I refuse to have problems with Wasteland becuase I have a bad mana base.  Dual lands are not very good right now.  Diceman and I think very similarly in this regard - we both like lots of basics.

But that is not really the reaso why you can't run duress in this deck - that is just the reason why Duress is, for starters, weaker.  Remember, turn one duress is the best play with Duress you can do in Vintage for one reason: The value of duress is equal to the value of the card you take.  On turn one you maximize the number of cards you see and therefore the value of the card you take. 

The second problem with Duress (in this deck at least) is that it is very, very poor at protecting your spells.  Duress + Gifts requires five mana, one of which is black and one of which is blue.  It makes it more likely that you will have to do a mainphase Gifts.  It also is bad at protecting a Scrolled up Ancestral.  Duress is better as an aggressive card than as a protective card in this deck.  What this deck needed wasn't an aggressive card, but a protective card. 

Finally, the reason that Duress is weaker right now is because Duress is strongest against Control and Combo - the two elements of the metagame that are weakest right now.  Combo almost doesn't exist (look at Pips Stats) and control is well behind Workshop and Fish decks. 

Duress a fish deck.  Please.  It is a terrible play.  It is fine in something like Death Long becuase you'll take the only card you care about.   But Control decks care about every one of those creatures: Theif, Mage, etc.  A swing and a miss with Duress is devastating.  And against Workshop decks, please - Duress is wretched. 

Look - let me be clear - I think Duress IS fine in this deck.

But MY personal testing has borne that Duress is not BETTER than Misdirection in this particular configuration.

Remember, I stated with FOUR duress.  Off the bat, I assumed that not running four Duress was folly - as I explained in my article.  When I found it was ineffectual at protecting MY spells, I tried Misdirection.  I had 2 Misdirection and 2 Duress and everytime the Duresses came up they just wanted to be Misdirection.  Thus, I cut them entirely.

Now if you are playing SSB or the French Gifts list, then Duresses ARE better becuase there are less blue spells in the deck and those decks are also slower. 

So, it's not that I think that Duresses are bad in gifts, I just don't think they are optimal.  And it's not that I think Duresses are terrible in the metagame, they just aren't very strong becuase of what they do to your mana base and the high chance of having a low value Duress target.  The opportunity cost of the Duress slot is pretty high right now. 

Look, do not just take this list and play it exactly as I presented it if you don't feel comfortable doing so.  I just ask that you take my suggested list as a rebuttable presumption.  If your testing shows that Duress is better, then use it!  You have to use what will win you the most games.  But I do expect at least the presumption that I am correct.

How has your testing gone?  Not many people have reported on their experiences with the deck and I'm curious what people think now that they have had time to test it. 

[Webster]

How has your testing gone? Not many people have reported on their experiences with the deck and I'm curious what people think now that they have had time to test it.

@Smmenen
I found that quantity is better than quality, meaning, relying on pure draw opposed to card quality draw ended up with me winning more games. A lot of the time, games won't go the way that the goldfish plan of a deck wants them to go.

-Sure, running petal + vault in your list increases the chances of having 4 mana on turn 2 to cast gifts with help of a brainstorm. However, I often see chalice for zero hit first turn and the misdirection in my hand doesn't look so hot. So what do I do then with my mox that I can't cast now? Sure, I'll have to brainstorm it away or hold onto it because I want to scroll for rebuild, but that ends up causing my hand quality to diminish.

-Using thirst to relieve myself of useless cards in hand or useless future draws has been stronger than brainstorming the junk away, cluttering my deck with dead draws.

-Not every game has the turn 1 brainstorm with scroll for protected recall on turn 2. The hands that the meandeck list gets when the goldfish hand doesn't show itself isn't as strong as other sub-par openers that I've had with other lists.

So, what my thoughts boil down to is that while the meandeck list should win faster, at least in a vaccum, other lists based on pure draw handled the opponent's threats more consistantly.


Web

[PucktheCat]

Er, just lost a longer post.

Despite my limited acquintance with the current metagame (I am just coming out of a hell of a school year) I think I can say some things with confidence.  This is based on my own testing of this deck.

Your draw engine is correct.  Gifts Ungiven is the best draw spell for this deck after it gets to 4 or more mana because it can also win you the game.  Skeletal Scrying is simply redundant because it costs as much as Gifts to get a decent return.  Thirst for Knowledge is priced right, but it suffers from a fundamental flaw - the point of drawing cards with this deck is to get more artifact acceleration and win sooner.  More often than not Thirst will cost you artifact acceleration instead.

Misdirection is very good for all the reasons Steve mentions.  Ironically, this deck itself is tremendously vulnerable to Misdirection, so if it is a sucess that will be a further reason to prefer Misdirection over Duress.  Duress is missed because often seeing your opponent's hand lets you short-cut past the slower, more protected wins involving Yawgmoth's Will, Time Walk, and a fist full of pitch cards and go right for a Tinker to end the game.  The correct choice between Duress and Mis-D is probably almost a toss-up.  That may be a good thing, because it will keep your opponents guessing.

Things I would like to test:  Vampiric Tutor over 4th Merchant Scroll.  Gorilla Shaman somewhere in the deck.

Responses to a recent post:

I often see chalice for zero hit first turn and the misdirection in my hand doesn't look so hot. So what do I do then with my mox that I can't cast now? Sure, I'll have to brainstorm it away or hold onto it because I want to scroll for rebuild, but that ends up causing my hand quality to diminish.

How do other lists do any better in the scenario?  If you had a Duress instead of the Misdirection would it have helped any more?  Thirst for Knowledge costs three.  Are you going to wait around to draw three lands (in a deck with not so very many) to cast it just so you can discard your Mox?  Wouldn't it be better in this scenario to be able to Merchant Scroll, which can be done with only two land, for either Ancestral or Rebuild/Echoing Truth?

-Using thirst to relieve myself of useless cards in hand or useless future draws has been stronger than brainstorming the junk away, cluttering my deck with dead draws.

I assume you are using Brainstorm as well.  The choice isn't between Thirst and Brainstorm but between Thirst and Merchant Scroll -> Ancestral Recall.

Leo

Edit:

I found that quantity is better than quality, meaning, relying on pure draw opposed to card quality draw ended up with me winning more games. A lot of the time, games won't go the way that the goldfish plan of a deck wants them to go.

Merchant Scroll -> Ancestral gives you quantitative card advantage over Thirst for Knowlege.  Thirst nets you no cards if you don't have an artifact - it is a 3cc Brainstorm.  If you have the artifact it nets you 1 card (and, most often, costs you a key piece of acceleration).  Ancestral always nets you 2 cards.

[Smmenen]

I honestly find that a little surprising.

The kinds of hands I'd get with SSB list or the French list were often quite wretched.  Involving cards like Mana Severance, Furnaces, Scrying, Welders, and weak Thirsts... 

Each of these Gifts lists is susceptible to bad hands.  No deck actually plays its game plan perfectly.  I rarely found Thirst to be a satisfying draw spell - nor did I find Scrying very suitable. 

It is worth mentioning that your example of Vault and Chalice doesn't make sense.  One reason to run Vault is so that you can beat Chalice 0 with another card that can be Tinkered away. 

It is possible that in trying to emphasize what this deck can do, people who read this thread are going to play the deck inflexibly.  Although I do tend to play it aggressively, you don't have to.  Fish has a really slow clock and you should never follow a rule of thumb when the situation calls for a different approach. 

I have found, and I'm not exaggerating, this deck to be uniformly stronger than the prior Gifts decks.  The threat density is higher (which I find funny when people say that this is more vulnerable to Duress) - Welder is not a threat and Thirst isn't a third as powerful in here as it is in Control Slaver. 

As I said, the variance between all gifts lists is 11 cards (if you read my article).

The Intuition list has 3 Duress, 3 Intuition, 4 AK, and 3rd Gifts in those slots.  That list technically had the highest threat density, but it was extremely vulnerable and was losing to way too much stuff.  The SSB list has: 4 thirsts, 2 Welders, a couple of more artifacts, 2 Duress, Pentavus, Slaver, and a bounce spell.  Thirsts make Slaver a threat with a Welder on the board, but this deck only had two gifts and aside from the Citadel, it only had really three spells to drop into the GY with Thirst.  I found that it drew way too much jank like: Pentavus, Mana Severance and Welders ontop of the jank inherent in a deck like this in Recoup, Belcher, etc.

The French list has its own jank problems with Furnaces and a split of Scrying and Thirst and an additional Gifts.  So you have: 2 Thirst, 2 Scrying, 3rd Gifts, 2-3 Duress, 2-3 Furnaces. 

Then my list runs: 2 more Gifts, 4 Merchant Scrolls, 3 Misdirections, Rebuild, and Echoing Truth.  I actually have more sources of real card advantage than either of the previous decks (the 4 Scrolls and 2 more Gifts over 4 draw spells) and the deck has much, much fewer conditional draws.  The only real janky cards left in the deck are Burning Wish, Recoup, and Darksteel Colossus.  This deck has more threats and less conditional cards.

To your point that the other decks handle the opponents threats more consistently, I'd say aside from the cards like Null Rod and Chalice and the like, sure. The other Gifts decks DO handle the opponents powerfull tactical cards better. And you know why? Becuase Duress is a proactive counterspell.  You can take their bomb on turn one.  But what I'm trying to figure out is: so what?  What is it that your opponent has that you care about?  Why do I have to take that Oath or that Thirst from them?  Does it matter?  The only thing that really hurts the Gifts deck are the artifacts roadblocks and you must admit that this deck handles those better than any of the Gifts decks before.  I simply do not see why you must handle your opponents strategy instead of forcing them to handle yours. 

I'm not trying to be combative, but I just don't see how it can be right that this deck gets more subpar draws when it has a higher threat density, more efficient protection to ensure that those threats resolve, and less "junk" that it needs to return to the library. 

This returns to the whole question about whether this deck is vulnerable to Duress.  If this deck is vulnerable to Duress, then every single one of the other Gifts decks should be even more vulnerable to it with. 

You also say that the Misdirection isn't so hot when your opponent drops Chalice.  It should be.  When you finally find that bounce spell, you are going to resolve it becuase of that Misdirection.  If you have Duress, they could just play another Chalice.  You don't need to STOP the Chalices from hitting - esp, if you have gone first - so much as you just need to be ready to remove them (With Truth or rebuild) at the right time.   Fish has a slow clock and you still have powerful threats that can evade Chalice 0 such as the just play Tinker plan. 

[PucktheCat]

If this deck is vulnerable to Duress, then every single one of the other Gifts decks should be even more vulnerable to it with. 

Well, there is the issue of Scrolling for the best card in your library then passing the turn and getting it Duressed.  I think that is what people are refering to when they say it is vulnerable to Duress.  Saucemaster's post above neatly deals with the correct response to that problem: if you think they are playing Duress don't cast Scroll unless you can cast what you are going for.

Leo

[doylehancock]

How has your testing gone?  Not many people have reported on their experiences with the deck and I'm curious what people think now that they have had time to test it. 

I have done some testing and as I said above you were right about Duress.  Misdirection is very good with this deck.  I am also going to test personal tutor with this deck.

[Webster]

I often see chalice for zero hit first turn and the misdirection in my hand doesn't look so hot. So what do I do then with my mox that I can't cast now? Sure, I'll have to brainstorm it away or hold onto it because I want to scroll for rebuild, but that ends up causing my hand quality to diminish.

How do other lists do any better in the scenario?  If you had a Duress instead of the Misdirection would it have helped any more?  Thirst for Knowledge costs three.  Are you going to wait around to draw three lands (in a deck with not so very many) to cast it just so you can discard your Mox?  Wouldn't it be better in this scenario to be able to Merchant Scroll, which can be done with only two land, for either Ancestral or Rebuild/Echoing Truth?

What I would do depends on the contents of my hand:
-If I had 2 moxes, then I would probably scroll for e.truth if I hadn't seen a null rod yet.
-If I only had one mox, then I would wait to cast thirst getting rid of the mox.
-I could tutor for ancestral and use the duress to clear a path for it to resolve.
There are just too many variables to be able to say "what would I do".

-Using thirst to relieve myself of useless cards in hand or useless future draws has been stronger than brainstorming the junk away, cluttering my deck with dead draws.

I assume you are using Brainstorm as well.  The choice isn't between Thirst and Brainstorm but between Thirst and Merchant Scroll -> Ancestral Recall.

I see no reason why you cannot run both.

I found that quantity is better than quality, meaning, relying on pure draw opposed to card quality draw ended up with me winning more games. A lot of the time, games won't go the way that the goldfish plan of a deck wants them to go.

Merchant Scroll -> Ancestral gives you quantitative card advantage over Thirst for Knowlege. Thirst nets you no cards if you don't have an artifact - it is a 3cc Brainstorm. If you have the artifact it nets you 1 card (and, most often, costs you a key piece of acceleration). Ancestral always nets you 2 cards.

I am not trying to compare thirst to ancestral. I include both in my list an it works quite well. Winning big for sure later has been working better for me than maybe winning now. That is how I feel the list I use compares to the test results that I've had with the meandeck list.

You also say that the Misdirection isn't so hot when your opponent drops Chalice.  It should be.  When you finally find that bounce spell, you are going to resolve it becuase of that Misdirection.  If you have Duress, they could just play another Chalice.  You don't need to STOP the Chalices from hitting - esp, if you have gone first - so much as you just need to be ready to remove them (With Truth or rebuild) at the right time.   Fish has a slow clock and you still have powerful threats that can evade Chalice 0 such as the just play Tinker plan.

Against fish, I am in no rush to duress them because, for the most part, that strategy is fundamentally flawed. I can afford to build a mana base and resolve draw spells. When I need to, I will clear a path for the spells that I need to resolve with the duress. Duress stops chalice also when you bouce it because it will take their force if they have one. Duress also won't force you to make more 2-for-1 trades and lets you know exactly how many cards in your opponent's hand you should care about.


Web

[Lunar]

@ Smmenen...Web does also have the bias of himself and louis being nigh unstoppable in our area smmenen with previous gifts decks...

This really is meta dependant, and web is correct, our meta is a bit different in our area...

While I see gifts decks in decline back where you are (based off recent tourney results and such) and as stated Fish is on the decline where you are, both are actually growing out here for us, and stax and "true" combo are starting to slack off a bit, with those players making the switch to the more succesful (in our area) gifts decks, and the fish decks that are aiming to beat the gifts decks.

@ Web...I dont know if I have seen you do it, but I know that many gifts players in our area pitch two cards rather than the single artifact more often than not with thirst for knowledge...While this isnt as much of a problem late game (when filtering is okay) It can cause fits with the deck early on...while play skill shouldnt be an issue, it often is and I dont see many players handling their thirsts properly (although this doesnt mean that they wont misuse things like scroll and even their brainstorms and such)

The winning later thing has served you well, and possibly that is just more to your play style (I know that when you tried beating me turn 1 with DSC last weekend it didnt work out so hot) Perhaps (perhaps...) you are going about things incorectly in your testing...It would be like testing EBA in the same manner you would test 4CC, or Oath Salvagers vs Chalice Oath...

@ Everybody...any thoughts on the possibility of duress AND misD?  I dont know where they would go, but ARE they really mutually exclusive?

[PucktheCat]

Web: do you run both 4x Merchant Scroll and Thirst for Knowledge in multiples?  That is what you seem to be saying.  If that is the case what are you cutting?

Mana?
Other card draw/tutors (Gifts Ungiven perhaps?)?
Disruption/Bounce?

Leo

[Smmenen]

I found that quantity is better than quality, meaning, relying on pure draw opposed to card quality draw ended up with me winning more games. A lot of the time, games won't go the way that the goldfish plan of a deck wants them to go.

Merchant Scroll -> Ancestral gives you quantitative card advantage over Thirst for Knowlege. Thirst nets you no cards if you don't have an artifact - it is a 3cc Brainstorm. If you have the artifact it nets you 1 card (and, most often, costs you a key piece of acceleration). Ancestral always nets you 2 cards.

I am not trying to compare thirst to ancestral. I include both in my list an it works quite well. Winning big for sure later has been working better for me than maybe winning now. That is how I feel the list I use compares to the test results that I've had with the meandeck list.

It is possible that in trying to emphasize what this deck can do, people who read this thread are going to play the deck inflexibly.  Although I do tend to play it aggressively, you don't have to.  Fish has a really slow clock and you should never follow a rule of thumb when the situation calls for a different approach.  There is no reason why you can't play this Gifts deck to set up a huge massive win in the late game.  This deck has plenty of sources of card advantage.  Using Gifts to find spells like: Brainstorm, Scroll, Gifts, and Demonic Tutor or the like is a very powerful plan and you can do it multiple times.  It's possible that you have just read through this thread and played the deck pretty much exactly as the step one, step two route.  I only mentioned that to illustrate the general game plan - not to suggest that it is must-follow strategy.  The strategy is clear - but there are many routes to that same end.  I often find that I defer to a later game position just to build up a huge win.  In fact, the more I think about it, the more likely I am to win with an Academy that taps for 9 and then just find the Burning Wish and Tendrils. 

If you can win the first counterwar, you can maintain your advantaged position into a very strong late game power play.  I think it would be more accurate to say that I play the early game aggressively and the late game reactively controlish.  You can leverage your early plays into an unstoppable force. 

I think I might have given the wrong impression earlier in the thread with the trade-off card advantage for card quality becuase upon reflection, most of hte games I win I have huge hands. 

Also, I never said Fish is in decline.  Fish is on the rise - big time in my environment. 

A big part of my argument in my article and here is that a) Gifts is being underused in these decks b) the Thirst and Scrying Enginre are not optimal and c) the deck should have less conditional cards overall - cards like Welder, Severance, etc.  I admit that Misdirection may seem conditional, but I have never found it to be weak.  Against the Workshop decks I just pitched it to FOW and then SB it out for Rebuilds and Rack and Ruins.  Against Fish Misdirection is very strong and against all the Drain decks Misdirection is very strong.  If you don't like the Misdirections, then run Vamp or Duresses - but I think you will find yourself unable to resolve your spells at the time you want. 

EDIT:
If you are no hurry to Duress them, then it seems to me that your whole criticism falls flat. 

Duress is a very mathmatical card.  The value of Duress is directly equal to the value of the card you took with it.  That is measurable.  If your running duress and your plan is NOT to turn one Duress, then your Duress is almost assuredly going to have a value less than the opportunity cost of the slot.  Why?  Becuase if your plan is to do what I do: wait, bounce, and win - then your late game Duress is often going to see nothing.  When you do that the value of Duress is almost nothing.  Misdirection's cost is certainly higher in terms of card disadvantage, but it is amortized among all the times you don't have to do it and the mana efficiency you trade off.  If you are not using Duress on turn one, then that is all the more reason to run misdirection.  Seriously. 

[Webster]

@ Web...I dont know if I have seen you do it, but I know that many gifts players in our area pitch two cards rather than the single artifact more often than not with thirst for knowledge...While this isnt as much of a problem late game (when filtering is okay) It can cause fits with the deck early on...while play skill shouldnt be an issue, it often is and I dont see many players handling their thirsts properly (although this doesnt mean that they wont misuse things like scroll and even their brainstorms and such)

Yes, I know that being overly aggresive with casting thirsts will eventually cause the unfortunate situation of having to discard 2 cards and for the most part it just comes down to a bad judgement call or just getting unlucky with draws. Sometimes the thirsts just don't go your way although, I still believe they're good enough to include.

Web: do you run both 4x Merchant Scroll and Thirst for Knowledge in multiples? That is what you seem to be saying. If that is the case what are you cutting?

Mana?
Other card draw/tutors (Gifts Ungiven perhaps?)?
Disruption/Bounce?

I'm testing various amounts of scrolls in combination with draw spells in an attempt to find the correct balance. I still believe that including more draw spells than listed in the meandeck list is better for my area. I still run 25 mana sources and a bounce spell.

EDIT:
If you are no hurry to Duress them, then it seems to me that your whole criticism falls flat.

Duress is a very mathmatical card. The value of Duress is directly equal to the value of the card you took with it. That is measurable. If your running duress and your plan is NOT to turn one Duress, then your Duress is almost assuredly going to have a value less than the opportunity cost of the slot. Why? Becuase if your plan is to do what I do: wait, bounce, and win - then your late game Duress is often going to see nothing. When you do that the value of Duress is almost nothing. Misdirection's cost is certainly higher in terms of card disadvantage, but it is amortized among all the times you don't have to do it and the mana efficiency you trade off. If you are not using Duress on turn one, then that is all the more reason to run misdirection. Seriously.

I suppose we've gotten to the heart of the comparison in the misdirection vs duress case in asking the question: Which is more valuable, maintaining card parity or mana efficiency? I suppose that the answer to this question regarding which card should be run in the deck, duress or misdirection, should be answered as a metagame call dependant on other decks expected to be present in the event that a person would play this deck in. If one expects more fish/shop, then I suppose including misdirections would be a better choice because, although misdirections are no good against shop, they do promote a healthier mana base in the form of basic lands which compliments the strategy against fish. If one expects more combo/mirror, then I suppose duress would be better because you don't care about wastelands as much.

[Smmenen]

Re: Duress:
I'm not trying to be mean, but I honestly don't think you understood the arguments I was making and your position is seemingly contradictory/incoherent.  I'll let someone else take it up with you and follow through with the arguments I was making if they are so inclined...