[Premium Article] Meandeck Gifts

[cosineme]

Currently I am using a 4 fetch 5 basic (one snow covered) 4 dual configuration.
the last land is a. seat of the synod, or b. darksteel citadel.

has anybody found either to be an effective measure against fish and chalice 0? it allows a 3rd option for you to tinker out a colossus and smash face against the tiny fish.

i mean, i would love to have that artifact land be the 6th island, or another dual (most likely volc) but so far it has done it's job without causing too much additional disruption.

[Luiggi]

what to side out is my biggest challenge with the deck also. I like matches where I can side out misd...cause then I can side stuff in!

I asked on these forums and basically got told to read a premium article in scg

If anyone has some useful insight as to what to side in, please share it!

I really enjoy playing this deck and I do an ok job of boarding, but more knowledge would be good.

Thanks

I've found it absolutely impossible to get a direct answer from anyone as to how they SB with this deck. I even asked Steve directly in the topic about his SCG Premium article, and he never answered. He said something like "Put all 15 SB cards into your deck, and simply pull out what you don't want to see in that particular matchup." I guess we're all meant to know the deck and its matchups as well as he does...

Can anyone that has been playing the deck for a while give clear SB'ing instructions for popular matchups like Fish, Workshop Aggro, mirror and CS?

Luiggi

[doylehancock]

I can help a bit.  Well I almost always side out 1 gifts.  With 3 maindeck plus a but load of tutors you will get a gifts when needed.  I usually also side out at least 1 merchant scroll.  After that it depends on the matchup.  For couter you need the misdirects in.  I guess you could side out the misdirects but I personally liek them.  you could side out one misdirect if need be.

[Chamelet]

That sentence by Steve is telling us something. Maybe he's running a transformational sideboard, going TPS or SSB. Don't know.
But anyway, Eye of Nowhere is excelent, specially 'cause Colossus is becoming popular. I lost only one match the tournament I played. It was against a Tog list that tan Tinker Colossus. Eye of Nowhere would have won me game 1 and the match and the tourney.
Anyway, I side out normally a Gifts, and most of the times 1/2 Mana Drain. Yes, Mana Drains. Against control you must know you're the beatdown and taking out those 2 mana counters helps that. Eventually I side in Duresses or REB's, but Drains out is nice.

[doylehancock]

That sentence by Steve is telling us something. Maybe he's running a transformational sideboard, going TPS or SSB. Don't know.
But anyway, Eye of Nowhere is excelent, specially 'cause Colossus is becoming popular. I lost only one match the tournament I played. It was against a Tog list that tan Tinker Colossus. Eye of Nowhere would have won me game 1 and the match and the tourney.
Anyway, I side out normally a Gifts, and most of the times 1/2 Mana Drain. Yes, Mana Drains. Against control you must know you're the beatdown and taking out those 2 mana counters helps that. Eventually I side in Duresses or REB's, but Drains out is nice.

he is not running a trans board.  he already has his board realeased.  The questions arent what are in the board its HOW to board.

[Godot]

Currently I am using a 4 fetch 5 basic (one snow covered) 4 dual configuration.
the last land is a. seat of the synod, or b. darksteel citadel.

has anybody found either to be an effective measure against fish and chalice 0? it allows a 3rd option for you to tinker out a colossus and smash face against the tiny fish.

i mean, i would love to have that artifact land be the 6th island, or another dual (most likely volc) but so far it has done it's job without causing too much additional disruption.

So you're mucking up your manabase by adding another wasteable land or one that doesnt provide blue just so you can Tinker?  To me this seems both incredibly bad and unnecessary.  Darksteel Citadel is gonna be absolute horrid everytime you draw it since this deck is so blue hungry, and against any 5 strip deck, esp. shop aggro, having another wasteable land is most unpleasant.  But what really gets me is that you're doing all this to enable Tinker, which is something you'll only use in about 25% (and thats being generous) of your games.  You're weakening a rock-solid manabase, something that'll affect you in everygame, in order to improve an aspect of the deck that you'll use in less than a quarter of your games.

This brings me the one major issue we've had during testing: Darksteel Colossus is a big steaming pile of feces.  The Tendrils kill is really just as easy, if not easier, to pull off in the important matchups like Fish and shop aggro, and anytime you draw DSC w/out a brainstorm or in your opening hand is just really annoying.  That said, DSC has a nice random 'I win' ability that another kill condition likely wouldnt.  Whether this is enough to outweigh the benefits of 1 open slot and a slot that is now only a bit less dead when you draw it I cant say yet.

re:  sideboarding

Isnt it enough that Steve built the damn deck, but now you want him to tell you how to play it too?  How about you just sleeve it up and play the damn thing?  After only a short trip through the gauntlet the board becomes pretty obvious, and its amazing how playing a matchup will show you which maindeck cards are weaker relative to what you wanna side in.  So in short, get off your lazy ass and test.  You'll probably get a lot further in starting the discussion if you show that you've actually done some work instead of just begging for knowlege from others who've actually bothered to put in the time.
[/rant]

[neenjafus]

I have been testing with this as much as I can. Unfortunatly, there isn't a T1 metagame around me to speak of. If anyone in the la/orange county CA area plays T1, let me know!!!

That being said, I have been playing this mostly online when I can since I don't have folk to test with very often.

My biggest problem is in the matchups where everything is great. Against control or combo, all often want to keep all or most of the maindeck as is and simply try and add in blasts and perhaps needle if they run enough good targets for it.

Sometimes I am hard pressed to find even 2 cards that I feel comfortable bringing out for 2 blasts.

Sure, I can find stuff to take out. I will sometimes take out tinker/dsc or perhaps a drain or a scroll. Sometimes misdirection comes out if it's mostly dead. I know that steve and others have much more time with the deck than I ever will, so I will certainly ask their opinion on something as crucial as sideboarding.

If he doesn't want to give it, or wants to charge for it...that's certainly his right. We have a community here that is focused on moving T1 magic forward, and asking for help seems well within the bounds of what is appropriate.

[Dante]

My biggest problem is in the matchups where everything is great. Against control or combo, all often want to keep all or most of the maindeck as is and simply try and add in blasts and perhaps needle if they run enough good targets for it.

Sometimes I am hard pressed to find even 2 cards that I feel comfortable bringing out for 2 blasts.

If those matchups are that good and you can't find anything you want to side out, then don't!

[neenjafus]

that's often what I end up doing.

[darkchild]

The value of the sideboard card is the difference in power of the card you sb out and the card you sb in. So basically ask yourself when you play the sb games which cards do you NOT want to see or has minimun effect on the game.

I agree that you cant sb a lot of cards for this deck, so the things that get cut often for sb cards are brainstorm, vamp tutor, merchant scroll or gifts ungiven. The change in power is not great and I am pretty sure that even without sbing you will do well with the deck. The only great help that I want to see post board is boseiju and pithing needles. The rest of the sb is pretty much typical of a control deck.

[cosineme]

So you're mucking up your manabase by adding another wasteable land or one that doesnt provide blue just so you can Tinker?  To me this seems both incredibly bad and unnecessary.  Darksteel Citadel is gonna be absolute horrid everytime you draw it since this deck is so blue hungry, and against any 5 strip deck, esp. shop aggro, having another wasteable land is most unpleasant.  But what really gets me is that you're doing all this to enable Tinker, which is something you'll only use in about 25% (and thats being generous) of your games.  You're weakening a rock-solid manabase, something that'll affect you in everygame, in order to improve an aspect of the deck that you'll use in less than a quarter of your games.

How is the tinker kill only used in about .25 of the games? I agree that the tinker colossi kill is not the best kill condition, however against 5 strips, 4 cotv, and everything else, the tinker kill still provides at least 50% of my kills because the fish players running those hate cards can't deal with a fast colossus easily. Perhaps I'm playing this deck wrong still, however, i believe that there has been no consolidation on the "correct" kill and thus it seems premature to say that the tinker kill is only used in .25 of the matches.

As well, I'm not considerably weakening the mana base at all since I'm running either 1 less fetch, or 1 less dual for the artifact land.

Isn't this the same reason why people run artifact lands in CS builds? to get around the cotv problem?

[Smmenen]

My biggest problem is in the matchups where everything is great. Against control or combo, all often want to keep all or most of the maindeck as is and simply try and add in blasts and perhaps needle if they run enough good targets for it.

Sometimes I am hard pressed to find even 2 cards that I feel comfortable bringing out for 2 blasts.

If those matchups are that good and you can't find anything you want to side out, then don't!

There is something to be said for surprising your opponent even if you don't think you need to.  I'm not saying you should transformational sb or what not, but sbing is smart just as a general principal, I think. 

I would NEVER sideboard out Brainstorm or Force of Will.  And I am hard pressed to figure out when I'd sb out Gifts.  I have sbed out Mox Pearl, Fact, Echoing Truth, Misdirections, Tinker/Collossus, Rebuild, Burning Wish before.  I can't think of anything else I've sided out. 

cosineme:
Control Slaver has welders to abuse its land. 

[Godot]

How is the tinker kill only used in about .25 of the games?

The huge majority of the time in our testing it was more favorable to kill Tendrils.  The Tendrils kill is only slightly slower on average, but is much more secure and resilient to hate.  Empirical results have told us that the Tendrils kill is superior.

 

As well, I'm not considerably weakening the mana base at all since I'm running either 1 less fetch, or 1 less dual for the artifact land.

How is replacing an unwasteable land that can get any color mana with either something that can be wasted or something that doesnt provide colored mana not weakening the manabase?  And replacing a dual is just terrible since you're already at the limit when it comes to access to non-blue mana.

Darksteel Citadel was run in CS to get around stuff like Mox Monkey and Chalice because the deck revolves around Goblin Welder.  Gifts doesnt rely on Tinker in the same way that CS relys on Welder.


Smmenen:  Under what situation did you side out Burning Wish????

EDIT: I cant read

[Smmenen]

I would only sb out Burning Wish if I was sbing in Tendrils and I felt it was a really slow control match that would be decided by whoever was able to resolve a late yawg will so that Burning Wishing for Time Walk or Will was unlikely.  It is probably a bad idea to ever sb out Burning Wish though.  I think I did it once or twice and regretted it. 

[Gabethebabe]

I would NEVER sideboard out Brainstorm or Force of Will.  And I am hard pressed to figure out when I'd sb out Gifts.  I have sbed out Mox Pearl, Fact, Echoing Truth, Misdirections, Tinker/Collossus, Rebuild, Burning Wish before.  I can't think of anything else I've sided out. 

Siding out a Mox would never occur to me.
I have sided out Mystical against FoW/Drain control decks. I´m sure you would do the same against Chalice monoblue.

I can imagine siding out Burning Wish against welderless MUD. With spheres on the table Burning Wish is a liability and once you manage to squeeze out of the lock, you drop Colossus and beat them to death.

[Smmenen]

I sided out Mox against Chalice decks only I think.  And only Pearl.  I would never sb out Petal. 

[Nehptis]

How is the tinker kill only used in about .25 of the games?

The huge majority of the time in our testing it was more favorable to kill Tendrils.  The Tendrils kill is only slightly slower on average, but is much more secure and resilient to hate.  Empirical results have told us that the Tendrils kill is superior.  [

Can you explain this further?  Perhaps I need to change my play style when testing.  I have been playing Fast Storm decks for a while now.  And perhaps I am trying to go off with the TOA sooner than I should.  I'm finding it very difficult to effectively use the Y Will to get to the Burning Wish and TOA without having access to both a Lotus and Dark Rituals for the on-color mana boosts that are needed.

Thus far, I find it much easier and faster to resolve and protect a Tinker / Colossus / Timewalk win than a TOA win.  I'm talking 70% / 30%, if not more. When I win by TOA I'm working very hard to get 10 spells and even harder to keep the right combination of 1R and 2BB available for the kill.

What's a typical turn that you TOA for the win?  What does your board / hand position look like when you win with the TOAs?  Please don't use an example where you have an Academy out and 5 Moxes and a Lotus, etc.  Take me through a normal scenario that probably involves pitching a U spell to a FOW or MisD as you go off.

[neenjafus]

I find that I am often gifting more than once before killing. The first gift is very often to get either mana, or general card advantage. Due to this, getting the mana for a tendrils kill is usually not too difficult. Even facing chalice, you do have rebuild. It can be cast eot so you are free to drop moxen, or during your turn/after will so you can more easily up your storm.

The beauty of this deck is that it is typically able to use each turn to build more card/mana advantage. Once you get enough mana/cards, winning is usually inevitable since there are so many cards in the deck that help move your kill forward.

The tendrils kill is a bit harder because it requires more thought, but it is typically the way to go if given a choice.

[darkchild]

You really need both the lotus and academy if you want to win via the tendrils route. How it normally goes is this:

You will, then hopefully have 5 artifacts in play , tap academy and either mystical and brainstorm or just merchant scroll for rebuild and then find another way to get burning wish for the win.

There are other times was your opponent has inflicted some damage on himself and you don't have to tendrils for so much, in that case then maybe you don't need the lotus and academy.

[Gort32]

From what I've found the best bet is to play into Tendrils and if you happen to run across the Tinker along the way then great.

[Smmenen]

I'm not sure its accurate to say that you tendrils most of the time.  I probably tendrils only a quarter of the time - but that's just becuase Tinker is easier and doable.  Tendrils is a safer kill.  But its a moot point because they are both so strong. 

I keep hearing reports of mono blue decks beating this - which I find someowhat incredulous. 

Mono blue decks have at most 12 counterspells and Chalices (at least the one's I've seen recently) to this decks 11 disruption spells and superior accelleration and draw. 

I think mono blue can be designed to beat this - but probably not the mono blue decks I've seen listed. Anyone having trouble with mono blue?

[Luiggi]

re:  sideboarding

Isnt it enough that Steve built the damn deck, but now you want him to tell you how to play it too?  How about you just sleeve it up and play the damn thing?  After only a short trip through the gauntlet the board becomes pretty obvious, and its amazing how playing a matchup will show you which maindeck cards are weaker relative to what you wanna side in.  So in short, get off your lazy ass and test.  You'll probably get a lot further in starting the discussion if you show that you've actually done some work instead of just begging for knowlege from others who've actually bothered to put in the time.
[/rant]

Dude, one word: relax.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I have nowhere near the amount of time I used to have available to play Magic, because of things like a job, a girlfriend, a desire to do other things, etc. I have the deck sleeved up, and have been able to play a large amount of goldfish games, but haven't had the possibility of testing it that much against other people, the determining factor when it comes time to figure out appropriate SB'ing strategies. Ergo, I chose to ask about SB'ing so that on those rare occasions where I can make it to a Vintage tournament with the deck I don't lose to my own poor SB decisions. If you don't feel like answering my question, fine, no one's forcing you. However, I don't think that flying off the handle and being overly critical of people that want to learn how to play the deck better is necessary or warranted.

Luiggi

[Sean Ryan]

I played Gifts in the recent Seattle tourny and have some observations on the Mono Blue Match.  In the 6th and final round of swiss I ended up drawing in 3 games with Mono Blue.  I chose to concede the match instead of drawing which would have prevented both of us from making T8.  He also had 3 teammates scheduled to make T8 so the prize split looked promising. 

Anyway, when the match went to draw he was in a favorable position with Phid on board and a fistful of counter magic.  The games we played are not the best example of the match up b/c. he got first turn Phid twice.  Once in game 1, which he followed with a 2nd Phid turn two! needless to say I lost that match.

What was very disconcerning was his ability to drop chalice for 1 no problem and hedging his bets against Giftz for Chalice at 2.  He was also running Tinker Collossus/Platz for the Kill.  Defending a quick Tinker with Mono Blues Counter wall can be very effective.  If Chalice Mono Blu becomes more prevalent then perhaps Buehlers SB Durress would be a good idea.  He told me they were for Storm Combo, which was his only loss last tournament when playing Control Slaver not Giftz.

Chalice is emerging as one of best strategies against Giftz and for this reason I have added Gorilla Shaman in place of Misdirection number 3 and as has been previously mentioned, Rushing River for Echoing Truth.  I also like having Vamp over the 4th Scroll. 

As far as Buehler's "modified" Gifts that was my bad...maybe Slightly modified would have made you happier Steve   All I can say is, thank you for designing one of my favorite decks evar!

Sean



   

[Smmenen]

I have alot of history with mono blue in this format.  So hopefully I have some insight into this matchup.

The first thing you have to understand about mono blue is that phid is slow as hell.  It is like a snow ball.  The first swing and even the second swing with Phid are not very strong.  The only reason it is strong is if you are afraid of it.  Mono blue is a fear based deck.  It works when people hesitate in that first swing or two. 

Phid has a number of problems that we can take advantage of.  First of all, Red Elemental Blasting a resolved Phid is extremely good.  Second, any alternative draw engine makes mono blue much weaker.  Mono blue makes a trade-off.  By choosing to run Chalices, they are using less Kegs (which is good for you in one way) and also, they have less countermagic. 

That is critical to remember.  If they have 3 Chalices, they probably only have 12 counterspells.  That isn't very many at all. With such an impervious mana base (5 Islands+), back to basics is going ot be pretty ineffectual at preventing you from playing spells. 

I think mono blue is a weak choice unless the mono blue player is a real expert.  Mono blue crumples to shit against Oath and is terrible against Vial. 

Chalice is like trying to plug a man hole with a cork.  Mono blue may be able to stop something from coming through, but it may be at a bad time - when the opponent had nothing that cost 1 and instead mono blue has one less counter for that resolved bomb. 

IN other words, tips for playing against mono blue:

1) for god sakes dont be stupid with your mana base.  Find Islands.  Don't let them get any sort of tempo at all.  If you let a land get wasted, you are terrible and should quit magic. 
2) do not assume they can win counterwars.  If they have just played a PHid, that is your opportunity to win.  The more utilty spells they play, the less able they are to defend against your threats. 
3) don't wait in the hope that you will topdeck.  Playing that game is a losing game against mono blue. 
4) control the terms of hte game by making them tap out on their turn.  Using Gifts on their first mainphase to force them to play a phid on their second mainphase is a VERY good play.  People still don't use the mainphases properly to fight mana drain. 

[Chamelet]

he is not running a trans board.  he already has his board realeased.  The questions arent what are in the board its HOW to board.

So can you post his sideboard here?

The value of the sideboard card is the difference in power of the card you sb out and the card you sb in. So basically ask yourself when you play the sb games which cards do you NOT want to see or has minimun effect on the game.

Yeah, I really don't need anyone teaching me basic sideboarding lessons. It's just that in some SB's posted here I found some unuseful cards and wanted to see what people think. You know, share some knowledge. It's pretty weird people come to a FORUM just to say "Go and do it yourself". tsc, tsc

You really need both the lotus and academy if you want to win via the tendrils route.

You only need a Will or a Rebuild (and the Wish) to win via Tendrils. And that means you can also have Recoup for Will or Scroll for Rebuild (specially after a Drain). It's not complicated at all.

I'm not sure its accurate to say that you tendrils most of the time.  I probably tendrils only a quarter of the time - but that's just becuase Tinker is easier and doable.  Tendrils is a safer kill.  But its a moot point because they are both so strong. 

I keep hearing reports of mono blue decks beating this - which I find someowhat incredulous. 

Mono blue decks have at most 12 counterspells and Chalices (at least the one's I've seen recently) to this decks 11 disruption spells and superior accelleration and draw. 

I think mono blue can be designed to beat this - but probably not the mono blue decks I've seen listed. Anyone having trouble with mono blue?

Well, the only match I lost with the deck was against a Tog that packed Tinker+Colossus. I won game 1, but both games he won was by protecting his Tinker, stabilizing his board (two Colossus looking at each other, and then dropping a Tog). Well, game 2 he dropped LoA first turn and there's nothing I can do against LoA (and that's a problem. Needle is the only card who helps against that). That's exactly to prevent these thing that I added Eye of Nowhere to the side.

[Gabethebabe]

I keep hearing reports of mono blue decks beating this - which I find someowhat incredulous. 

It is.
I lost to monoU this weekend and that was because my opponent was a lucky SOB.
Game one he had a opening hand with double counter to stop my Ancestral with MisD backup and topdeck his own Ancestral one turn later.
In the second game I had first turn lotsa jewlery and FoF that gave me nothing and he played turn 1 Engineered Explosives to blow away my nutsack.

I happily play against any opponent playing monoblue.

[doylehancock]

2 Rack and Ruin
1 Rebuild
3 Pithing Needle
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Eye of Nowhere
2 Pyroclasm
2 Old Man of the Sea
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast


That is the sideboard he ran at Origins.  I would change somethings but its a good board. 

@Steve: With Meandeck Gifts can we run twister in the board?  What is your opinion on dropping on scroll for a frantic search (combined with Academy its insane)?

THanks.

[Smmenen]

Most of the time I play Academy it is becuase I just resolved Yawg Will. 

I think Frantic Search is far too narrow.  Every deck needs to be powerful on its own.  That's one of the differences between this and SSB and other Gifts lists.  This is the least conditional gifts list and it still has too many conditional cards(Wish, Recoup). 

I thought about Twister in the board.  Actually I did a search for every single red, black, or blue sorcery in magic and made a list of options.  My search didn't bear fruit.  Twister was on the list though. 

[cryolyte]

Now that everyone and their brother is playing around misdirection, does anyone think it is okay to cut?I have cut 2 misdirections in order to fit Gorilla Shaman and Vampiric Tutor (also running echoing truth main) into the deck. I realize that misdirection is FoW #5,6 and 7, and also is the winner of counterwars, but I'm thinking that there may be more optimal cards to run.

Also, in regards to the sideboard:
What do you all think about 2x Engineered Plague in the board? Not only is it good against FCG, but it can be used against Oath as well (naming spirit).

Would it be optimal to run 1 Hurkyl's Recall in addition to 1 Rebuild in the board? Boarding in Hurkyl's Recall in addition to Echoing Truth and Rebuild already main would make for a strong gifts: broken spell, H. Recall, Truth, Rebuild. Hurkyl's Recall can still help in the storm count arena, and also bounces an opposing colossus/platz while leaving your in play.

[Whatever Works]

I must say that Meandeck Gifts is everywhere, and the mirror match is extremely wild, unpredictable, and based on the draw. That being said I have had improved sucess with the addition of 2 duress in the maindeck in the place of 1 misdirection, and another slot (which I am still debating). Adding duress doesnt particularly make the deck better, but I found that being able to duress after a turn 1 scroll, or duress before casting ____ bomb has been very usful.

I was wondering what the best boarding plan vs. say Cron Stax would be... I found the matchup to be very difficult even with strong hands, and almost impossible when not on the play... I am not sure if its best to race, or just try to maintain board position till you get rebuild or R@R...

Kyle L.