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Author Topic: The State of Vintage: Has Vintage Bled Out the Casual Players?  (Read 14791 times)
Yare
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« Reply #60 on: July 08, 2005, 08:48:14 pm »

So, if all the casual aspect of the game has been "bled out of the format," what's the answer? I mean, you can't blame people for building decks that win and abusing every last angle that they can.  Maybe a major change is required, like just restricting an assload of cards that may or may not "need" restriction.  Or even raising the minimum deck size.  Just some ideas to try to make it harder to win quickly.
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« Reply #61 on: July 08, 2005, 09:14:40 pm »

5-color sounds like the place for you Yare...

but for the Rouge Elephant thing...as a player who has lost to it playing 7/10 ( :shock:) I would say it wasnt really losing to the 9 land stompy deck or the player...it was the fact that he scrubbed out a round later and made my loss just that much worse...getting beat by a terrible deck in the early rounds only to see said terrible deck go on to do NOTHING is what sucks...
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« Reply #62 on: July 09, 2005, 05:17:46 am »

To me that's the whole beauty of vintage:

(almost) all cards are allowed, so you have to design your deck to be able to beat the majority of all other possible decks.

Diversity and innovation, although often not tier1 rules! Just take those kind of decks into consideration as well when designing your decks!

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« Reply #63 on: July 09, 2005, 12:22:47 pm »

Over the last couple years, Vintage has become less and less a skill-intensive format.  Not only in the sense of the amount of playskill needed to win, but also in terms of design skill needed.  Before you stop reading and start screaming about how I'm an idiot, let me explain why I feel this way.

There have always been incredibly powerful cards in T1.  People label these cards as "broken" because they influence the game in tremendous ways.  Peeling a Will off the top was just as powerful 2 years ago as it is today, perhaps even more so, because games lasted far longer.  Vintage has reached critical mass on broken cards now, however, and because of the power level of many of the cards that see play in competitive T1 today, poor play decisions and poor deck construction can often be negated by lucky draws.  Luck is, of course, a factor in any format in Magic, it doesn't matter how good your deck is if your draws are abysmal.  It is a far more pressing factor in Vintage than it is in any other format, however.  If you don't have a Force of Will and a blue card,  a Wasteland, or a Mishra's Workshop, and your opponent opens with Workshop, Trinisphere, you've lost the game.  It's not that you were outplayed, or that your opponent was a genius of deck construction, you simply got out-mised.

Since Mirrodin was released, T1 broke the threshold of brokeness, turning from a format where "broken things happen" to a format where "if broken things haven't happened for you by turn 2, you've already lost".  Mirrodin heavily pushed the envelope.  I know a lot of the "new school" players scoff at the "old schoolers" because they just can't imagine how T1 could have ever been such a slow format, but rarely do they stop to think about the fact that all of the decks that are currently viable rely heavily on cards from Mirrodin and forward.  Without Forbidden Orchard, there is no aggressive Oath deck.  Without 3Sphere, Titan, artifact lands, Mindslaver, Crucible, etc. brown decks are relatively slow.  Without Spoils of the Vault, most of the aggressive storm combo decks aren't consistant enough.  Vintage has reached a point where restrictions aren't enough to hold the format down, they simply increase the randomness of the format.  It's not "will I draw a broken card this turn?"  It becomes "which of the 20 broken restricted cards this deck runs will I see this turn?"

That's why T1 lost it's appeal to me.  It's not that the players are arrogant pricks, they've *always* been arrogant pricks.  That's always been the price of playing T1.  In fact, those players are necessary for a healthy environment.  They keep things agitated so the format doesn't slow down and die.  It's not the card prices.  If the format held enough enjoyment, the cost barrier wouldn't be sufficient to keep me away.  Hell, I had my entire collection stolen, and went right back to buying pieces that I needed.  Course, back then, moxen were only $100-130 a pop, but I still had around $2000 worth of stuff to replace, and it didn't bother me one bit to do it.  No, the reason I can't stand T1 is because it's a format full of Affinity.  Monkey decks where a good hand on the other side of the table can make it nearly impossible to win.  If I wanted to pilot a deck where my dice rolling skills and luck were more a factor in my wins than my skill, I'd play T1.  Since that holds no appeal to me, neither does the format.
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« Reply #64 on: July 09, 2005, 05:35:59 pm »

my first opinion of that post is that you are not a competitive T1 player who doesnt play high powered decks against other high powered decks...you sound like either somebody who goldfishes a lot, or plays un-powered decks against powered decks...

Matches go to time in T1 just as much if not more so than other formats (from my experience) You take no note of the fact that while your deck is stupid and broken, so is the guys sitting across the table from you.

Yes vintage has stupid broken you cant do anything games...it happens...although other formats do it as well, just on a slightly slower time scale...take tooth and nail...it doenst do its thing till like turns 4 or 5, but when it does its game...the difference between T2 tooth and T1 Oath is that rather than land go, land go, land go, land go win. its land mox mox go, land win...the same amount or more things happening in fewer turns.  When ravager was around it was almost the same in T2 as T1...maybe a turn slower...

The thing that sets T1 players apart is that they enjoy seeing it happen that quick and broken...Your going to lose some stupid games, thats a fact in T1...but your going to do it too, these broken games are fun, and most T1 players enjoy that and its a major reason they play...but the real excitement happens in game 3 where both decks are even and its the most amazing games magic can possibly experience. Thats what T2 and extended and even legacy lack...those games where both players do stuff and its gets just cool.  Cool
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« Reply #65 on: July 09, 2005, 06:00:15 pm »

The Rosewater puzzles in this format make every other format's puzzles look tame.  It's pretty easy to set up a block properly so that you can maximize your counterattack - it's very difficult to plot out what the possible iterations of play order are in a deck such as say, Meandeck Gifts.  Let alone the correct iteration out of that tree.

The reason that people say Type 1 is easy to play isn't that the decks are easy (they're not), it's that the playskill still isn't above most PTQ players.  It's quite easy to beat buffoons.
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« Reply #66 on: July 09, 2005, 06:25:00 pm »

...that's why T1 lost it's appeal to me.  It's not that the players are arrogant pricks, they've *always* been arrogant pricks.  That's always been the price of playing T1.  In fact, those players are necessary for a healthy environment. 

No, the reason I can't stand T1 is because it's a format full of Affinity.  Monkey decks where a good hand on the other side of the table can make it nearly impossible to win.  If I wanted to pilot a deck where my dice rolling skills and luck were more a factor in my wins than my skill, I'd play T1.  Since that holds no appeal to me, neither does the format.

What color is the sky in your world?

Seriously, if you hate the format, why are you here??  No, SERIOUSLY!

Maybe you should start up your own website and call it TheCasualDrain.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2005, 06:27:05 pm by Methuselahn » Logged
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« Reply #67 on: July 09, 2005, 10:12:03 pm »

That's why T1 lost it's appeal to me.  It's not that the players are arrogant pricks, they've *always* been arrogant pricks.  That's always been the price of playing T1.  In fact, those players are necessary for a healthy environment.  They keep things agitated so the format doesn't slow down and die.  It's not the card prices.  If the format held enough enjoyment, the cost barrier wouldn't be sufficient to keep me away.  Hell, I had my entire collection stolen, and went right back to buying pieces that I needed.  Course, back then, moxen were only $100-130 a pop, but I still had around $2000 worth of stuff to replace, and it didn't bother me one bit to do it.  No, the reason I can't stand T1 is because it's a format full of Affinity.  Monkey decks where a good hand on the other side of the table can make it nearly impossible to win.  If I wanted to pilot a deck where my dice rolling skills and luck were more a factor in my wins than my skill, I'd play T1.  Since that holds no appeal to me, neither does the format.

Thanks for your opinion. Now, kindly fuck off. Out of everyone that has ever frequented this website since it's inception, you hold the crown for the member with the most consecutive asinine posts and most asinine posts in total. The magnitude of stupidity in your babble far surpasses the average brain fart. I'd go as far as to say that almost nothing of what you've ever posted on this site is comparable to a rational thought. A lapse in judgement is easily pardonable, but when you're retarded on a consistent basis, it's hard to question why people may *seem* like "a bunch of arrogant pricks".

I like the members here. I've actually met a good number of them and they're hardly the arrogant pricks you describe them to be. Now, since you don't like the people that play T1, and you have no appreciation for the skillset involved, perhaps it's time you find a forum to troll that suits your fancy more.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2005, 11:15:07 pm by Shock Wave » Logged

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« Reply #68 on: July 09, 2005, 11:37:22 pm »

I would like to respond to Spikey Mikey's comment about Type 1 not being skill intensive.  Don't think in terms of games, think in terms of playing a tournament.

Say you go to an 8 round Type 2 tournament.  6-1-1 makes top 8.  You can fuck up a decision and lose the match because of it.  You can still go 6-0-1 and make top 8

You go to Starcity P9 8 round tournament.  You win 1 round to brokeness.  You lose 1 round to opponent's brokeness (omg-people forget this part).  You now have to go 5-0-1 and NOT fuck up any matches.  In the Type 2 scenario you could throw a match and still win.  Type 1 you can't do that because chances are, one round you will get out brokened-so you CAN'T fuck up any other matches or you are eliminated from contention.
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« Reply #69 on: July 09, 2005, 11:43:13 pm »

Personally, I think Type One is at its most skill-intensive level since October 1998 (the release of Urza's Saga and Tolarian Academy...). The combo decks running around these days are horrendously complicated (Doomsday, Gifts-based decks, DeathLong etc.), and the other decks still have plenty of skill and decision-making required to play them to high finishes. You can get lucky, but that won't win big tournaments by itself. Sure, Yawgmoth's Will, Yawgmoth's Bargain, Tinker and Black Lotus are the Fairy Godmothers of the format, capable of winning the game at random, but that's just how it is, and good players learn to minimise that.

Can you turn up to a Vintage tournament and lose the first two matches to awesome draws of the opponents? Sure. Could I turn up to an Extended or Standard tournament and lose the first two matches to bad match-ups i.e. the vagaries of Swiss Pairings? Damn straight. Bad match-ups in Vintage are nothing like as bad as they can be in other formats. While the Fairy Godmothers above can save people from their own bad play, they also keep Vintage on a more even keel by saving people from otherwise bad matches i.e. the in-game luck factor lessens the out-of-game luck factor that are the pairings.
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« Reply #70 on: July 10, 2005, 04:03:53 am »

So, if all the casual aspect of the game has been "bled out of the format," what's the answer? I mean, you can't blame people for building decks that win and abusing every last angle that they can. [...] Just some ideas to try to make it harder to win quickly.

Vintage has one major defining element: Wizards wants to have one format in which all cards are legal, apart from the ante and dexterity cards. That makes the card pool so wide that it will never be possible not to find a deck that can win quickly. Vintage is so full of tutoring effects (come Portal, we won't even have deck space for all possible tutors anymore) that card restrictions are just able to keep real brokenness in check. But it lurks behind the surface, every time you pick up a deck.

Sure it feels dirty to go "Gifts, Recoup, Will, Ancestral, Tinker, Walk, Recoup Walk" on someone who has just played a Steadfast Guard. But looking at the prizes that most tournaments are played for, I think this is inevitable. Higher prizes draw a better crowd. I go to tournaments for the fun of playing Magic, but the higher the prize, the more I care about it. There is a point when the possible prize overruns the fun aspect. When playing for a Mox, do you allow take-backs when your opponent makes an obvious mistake? If you do, then well done: You have preserved your casualness. And you've become a casualty, too. A casualty of the prize-hunter, the "Spike", the tournament player, the sometimes shady rules lawyer (because players with as shrewd an honor as me don't ask for a take-back. But that's a different topic).

When the prizes go up, the players tighten up. They build more cutthroat decks, they play sharper, they are generally more attentive. I remember the Vintage tournament at Worlds Berlin (2003?), held parallel to a PTQ. There were a couple of Vintage matches that were tight, where people stood and watched because of the crazy things going on, and the players were sweating because of the sheer complexity of the game -- at all tables. In the PTQ area, playing was tight especially on the top tables, so tense that you could feel it just walking along the tables. Not on the lower tables, though. In the x-3 bracket, play almost became playtesting. People were much more relaxed when they weren't in the run for the prizes anymore.

That relaxation is often translated as "casual". As some others, I was around on BD. I've seen this format evolve. Beyond Dominia was a small, intense world, trying to squeeze some tournament worthiness out of a cardpool that wasn't usually used for tournaments. Over the years, the power level of cards and decks has gone up – a lot. With the power came a loss of casualness. That's not to say BD was casual (it wasn't), but evolution was soooo slow that you could almost call it relaxed. The format developed faster, the decks became faster, and suddenly metagaming was possible! Before, you'd just look at "who is likely to come", and you knew what decks would be there. Then, you'd look at a major T8 and see those influences in your local tournaments. And today, you can actually analyze T8's for trends and metagame shifts.

What am I getting at? I started to ramble a little, so let me pull my thoughts together and find out what I was going to say... oh, yes, I've got it.

The players have always been clamouring for more condensating, more tournaments, more prizes, more innovation. It all has come, thanks to the community. Some are more vocal than others (Smmenen, lots of others), some contribute more than others (Zherbus, Ray, all tournament organizers). But with all that, it's just harder to be casual with so much expertise available and prizes as high as they are. I totally agree that Vintage has bled out the casual players from the tournament scene, and where it hasn't, high-powered players win. And since almost nobody wants to get beaten all the time, the casual players either step out or step up.

To be honest, I fear that the old casualness-tournament mixture, with only a minority really focusing on deckbuilding and metagaming, will come back once Legacy gets rolling. The Spikes among us will be attracted by the possibility of qualifying, and the newer players will like the lack of 300$ cards. I quite like the state that Vintage is in now, but I'd like to see more high-profile and more low-profile tournaments coming, and more players making the leap to the competitiveness. Otherwise, we will probably go back from the high that was 2004/05 and go back to something more like 2001/02, when all of this started. That would make me sad and play Legacy, whipping out the Vintage deck just for fun. And here's my last point of this overlong ramble: Even with all the "Spike" stuff going on, Vintage tournaments are still more relaxed than all others, apart from pre-releases. The players are older, they care more about their cards, they are welcoming, and they don't complain about topdecking much, because the know it happens – especially in Vintage, where "broken things happen".

Oh, and all that comes down to this answer to the original question: There is no way to get the casual players back in if the current intensity of Vintage is kept up. Make the casuals into relaxed and friendly tournament players, and all is well.

Dozer
« Last Edit: July 10, 2005, 04:13:23 am by Dozer » Logged

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« Reply #71 on: July 10, 2005, 12:59:49 pm »

If type 1 requires less playskill then it used to then someone please explain to me how Rich Shay has lost only 5 rounds in his last 6 or 7 tournements total. Its alot more then just getting "Lucky" though that could perhaps affect a round here and there.
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