It's time to have a Serious Discussion about Proxies Again

[doylehancock]

Why not take the ULTIMATE unselfish approach and advocate reprints?  Regardless of whether WotC will or won't - that's not the point of what I'm saying.

I'm saying that if you want Vintage to grow regardless of the damage to your investment, and were serious about your commitment, then you would have no problem with Wizards reprinting dual lands, power, and some of the high-dollar cards.
And I practice what I preach - with all the money I've sunk into buying Moxen and blue power, I would rejoice at the news of reprints (my Unlimiteds would be slightly more pimp than Xth Edition).

Unfortunately, this isn't going to happen.  The game was designed with collectability in mind, and we have to overcome the errors of the past (small print runs, etc.) in order for our format to grow.

they cant reprint power.  It was something when WOTC bought magic one of the guidelines of the deal was not reprinting some cards/sets and power was included.

If they simply allow collector's edition cards, as long as they are in colored sleeves, we would solve a lot of these problems.

[Mr. Fantazy]

If they simply allow collector's edition cards, as long as they are in colored sleeves, we would solve a lot of these problems.

This is a possible tactic for WotC to take, without outright endorsing proxies. They could easily put out another collectors edition under the reprint policy. The thing they have to weigh is if such a move would be viewed as a betrayal of trust and the ultimate effect. I think if they were to make such a move you could look for a limited print run, which would help the collectors by adding a new limited collectable, and helping the unsanctioned crowd without upsetting the secondary market.

I wouldn't look for them to make any statement concerning playing such cards beyond the current stance of no proxies.

-Shawn

[Lunar]

I think one thing (dont know if this has been mentioned, I dont have time to go back through 4 of the pages I missed) that should be mentioned is just how big do we want our format to go...

certainly this is a great format (the best IMO) and I want it to thrive, I want new ideas and fresh faces etc etc blah blah blah blah...

The proxie question should be approached on a how big? basis though.

We can look to now, vs a year ago, to two years ago...

Last year we had like 3 (?) SCG tournies along with waterbury going on...the year before it was waterbury and gencon only really (on the large scale T1 basis) This year we have had numerous power series all over the world with gigantic (in T1 terms) tourneys in several different regions here in the US and probably the biggest T1 tourney I can think of over in France (it was even sanctioned)

How much bigger and how many more people do we need to make T1 go?  How important is it to continually grow...certainly T1 is not going to be like the pro tour with 400-600 people each event (although france was a sign of what might be) I dont know that we could even come close to supporting that kind of a monster regardless of # of proxies...

The format has grown by hudge leaps and bounds in the last 2-3 years...just because it has leveled off a little bit doesnt mean that the world is coming to an end...We could even be flooding the market right now (which I previously mentioned) and might even need to take a step back for a moment...

Take something like Extended for example...there are not BIG ectended tournies every month in every region of the US...still it is a wildly popular format (at least it was...we will see how it survives after the rotation eh?) The format doesnt need several waterburies, 9 SCGs, Origins, Gencon, French Champs, smaller series, and 20+ power tournies a month to survive...at least not that I see.

T1 was continuing to grow last year when there were 5 proxies and less tournies...growth needed to happen, but how much more do we really need?

I fully understand the move to 12 proxies...in fact ive thought that was the correct call all along...it lets people proxies 8 pieces of power and 4 other expensive cards...this lets people play (as long as they are willing to purchase some support cards) all but a couple of decks like ubastax and riddler.

In answer to the question I know I will get as to "but what about the rising prices of duals and forces?" -- These cards are not like cards in T2 or even extended, and to some smaller extend legacy...you do not need vast amounts of different cards...one set of "vintage staples" is all you need, forever and they probably wont change by too much....every deck uses either a pretty standard 5 color mana base or maybe as many as like 7 or 8 duals (dragon or something) and force of wills....EVERY deck...that means you dont have to buy a hudge chunk of new cards when you want to switch decks....

The fill in cards are generally much easier to get a hold of and these shouldnt need proxying....basically everything from dark/ice age on has plenty of cards for players to get their hands on...if there were enough oath of druids when it was T2 legal then there are MORE than enough to go around for a much smaller population of T1 players....

So ill ask it of some of you guys (mostly steve since he started this thread)....

How much bigger are you aiming for?  Do you want it universal...? Do you want it to dominate magic...? Do you want it similar to how it is now...? Im really curious to see how off my opinion is...personally I find the format to be fine and I think its accesable enough to get more dedicated players and slightly eliminate scrubby people not really into playing...I think that 100-200 people tournies are a pretty big deal and should be something we are proud of...Im proud that we got 43 people at our last local tourney here in NorCal...

I think that the French tourney with nearly 400 players (sanctioned no proxie) is an amazing sign of how well things are going now....and I LOVE the idea to award non powered decks for doing well in a powered field, maybe it is something we should utilize here in the US more...just a thought, I dont know if anybody had mentioned it...

Just to throw it out there (because I know a lot of people who think this) I should also ask if this is partly a cry from the top level T1 players to make themselves seem better overall...does steve and kevin and others want growth for personal reasons only (namely getting their names on the same levels as people like Zvi and wakefield and guys like kai budde etc etc etc)
I think they are part of the reason that our format is doing so well, and I dont want this to sound like slander to them...I fully think of them in similar lights as the above mentioned names (because im a T1 player) but I know people wonder if that is at least a little part of the reason that threads like this get started by steve and not some newbie guy...

Ill stop rambling now and wait for some responses...

[Mr. Fantazy]

I do not think that Vintage can exist, long-term, on a small local scene on a week-to-week basis becuase the format isn't dynamic enough.  Block rotates year to year and Standard often goes through dramatic changes.  Vintage is best left to a monthly scene or large Grand Prix type tournaments, imo.

I didn't mean to gloss over this. You may have a valid point here Steve. Even though I don't get to play as much anymore, there is and always will be a special place for the Vintage Community with me. It still remains my favorite format to play. It is these personal feelings that in the face of buisness reality, cause a great deal of frustration with me.

-Shawn

[Smmenen]

Steve,
You know damn well I did not say I wouldn't mind Vintage going away. I did say that from a business aspect Vintage has become a risky prospect at least at a local level. Of course, you're not concerned about the local level (and I'm not saying you should be) which feeds directly to my point about players being blind about the big picture, and before someone else tries to read something into this post that I didn't say, I include myself in that group. Truthfully, I find trying to use some dramatic stance, using things that weren't a part of the conversation, insane, but thats just me.

The format, if your talking about the metagame and the state there of, is absolutely great. Of course thats not what we're talking about in this thread. If your talking about the health of the format regarding the proxy issue, then I would have to conclude that you agree that it's a mess, considering your posts that continually call for more proxies. I don't necessarily disagree with you. The reality is that on a store level I have players that won't play in non proxy events and players that won't play in heavy proxy events. You may not like it, or may not accept it, and hell it may only be a problem I'm having, but that hardly diminshes the fact for me.

I would think that you could extrapolate from my comments that I don't believe that any of this "selfishness" is malign but rather an actual concern and desire for T1 to thrive. As the old saying goes "the road to hell is paved with good intentions."

I want T1 to thrive both on a personal and professional level, and I try very hard to help that happen, as you do.

Revvik,
I have owned power for a long time and have no problem with reprinting, however as you pointed out, thats not going to happen.

-Shawn

I agree that it is a complicated issue.  I think you raise some legitimate concerns - but to some extent, they are concerns shared by magic generally.

Let's talk about constructed magic - competitive, constructed magic.

Type two: There is basically only two type two events a year: States and Regionals - for most players.  I kept hearing tons of complaints about Type Two last season in that people were sick of Ravager decks and the season before that people were sick of madness deck and Tog decks before that and Fires decks before that.  My point is that how long can a store keep a stable crowd of ANY constructed format week to week?  I think it is nearly impossible.  Block is quite interesting in season - but they can only make so many sets a year and anything becomes stale without major innovation.

Type One is the slowest format to change and also probably the least interesting to play on a week to week basis becuase it is such a format defined by amazing, memorable games and new decks that emerge out of SCG type events. 

Another problem with constructed magic is that people are busy.  Who can seriously dedicated one night a week to go and play in a store for a 12 man tournament that takes 8 hours for crap prize?  That is something I think only teenagers can dedicate themselves to. 

Adults have to stick to more monthly type events and Limited.  I have also noticed that lots of players who play competitive sort of stigmatized the idea of having a large collection or even any collection at all.  This is more prevalent among the local limited players in Columbus.  Limited has transformed magic, in my view, and I think organizing a weekly event that gets consistent turnout for ANY constructed format would be exceedingly difficult if the store owner wasn't carefully attuned to what is going on.

If *I* Owned a store - I would go about it something like this, I would first, gauge, local interest - but I would most likely set up a rotating schedule that closely connected to local PTQs and the bigger format - perhaps alternating every week between T2 and Constructed and Sealed and only occassionally mixing it up with Legacy, Vintage, and Extended.  If a crowd formed around any one of those formats, I would hold events more regularly for them - but no more than every other week for any one of those older formats. 

I think reprinting power would be a very bad idea for many reasons unless they were given away as very rare promos. I think it would undermine confidence in the game generally in addition to other problems worst of all would be completely ruining the most popular constructed formats.  So that's not even on the table, in my view. 

I think growing constructed formats, ANY constructed format, at the grass roots or local level is a very difficult task becuase it requries wisdom and patience with many, many factors conspiring against your success. 

[Lunar]

but what do you think of awarding (this is for the big tourneys like waterbury and SCG) non powered players for doing well?

I think a move towards doing this would help ease the amount of need for more expensive cards overall and would make the format more open for new players if the budget minded can win prizes among the fully powered players...

If the idea caught on you could even do something weird like two different top 8s...one for the powered decks (or a non powered if it actually made top 8) and a second play off for the non powered decks for a second smaller prize structure (the prizes would still have to be decent though to get players interested in the non powered stuff)

Maybe use that timetwister that 1st gets extra as one part of the prize, and those legends packs (this is for the SCG tourneys)

Anybody like this idea? or am I just nuts?

[Smmenen]

I think the problem with that approach is that it doesn't change basic attitudes.

The goal is change the attitudes of people who don't want proxy events.  That can be done in several ways - first is getting them to see how much they can enjoy proxy events.  That works at SCG events and Waterbury's.  Rewarding non powered decks isn't a bad idea - but it's fighting the real goal.

I think to a large degree we have been overwhelmingly successful at changing attitudes of players and store owners in regard to proxies in the last two years, but there are still many, many miles to go.  Persuasion can only go so far.  It takes often friends saying that proxies are ok or just experiencing tournaments with proxies to get people to break themselves of their views on the matter.

[Lunar]

so do we want to add more proxies already then when there are still people who are not happy with 10 or even 5?

If getting people okay with proxies is your goal then it seems counterintuitive to start adding even more.

[Smmenen]

so do we want to add more proxies already then when there are still people who are not happy with 10 or even 5?

If getting people okay with proxies is your goal then it seems counterintuitive to start adding even more.

Well, the answer is that it depends right?

At the local level, people can bitch and whine and control whether a store owner actually holds a proxy event.  That same player has almost no say at a Waterbury or SCG event and the TO can decide what is best.  I think both Ray and Pete recognize that 10 proxies are not enough and they are looking for ways to increase the number of proxies. 

There is no reason that the number of proxies at a tournament should remain static.  Different tournaments SHOULD have different numbers of proxies.  I think there is nothing inherently wrong with having the Vintage Championship be no proxy so long as there are ample opportunities for people to compete in Vintage for good prizes (better prizes) with proxies. 

[Lunar]

Do you feel that big events like SCG and Waterbury should go above say 15 proxies then?

How would you feel if you sat down across from a 30 or a 60 proxie deck?  Do you not care (this is assuming its a big big tourney)

Or do you feel that these 30 or 60 card proxy tourneys should be limited to small tournies?  I like that it is a privledge to play in the world championship since it is no proxies (even if it means I cannot play a full powered deck...although I could probably borrow...) I also think that players should have to show at least some sort of commitment to the format by owning at least a majority portion of their deck...

Should there be some sort of deal made where there is a list of cards you can always proxy that dont take away from your total...

Lets say that all cards that cost $20 or more can be 100% proxies...but you can only have 5 proxies that fall under $20...does this work? Where does this system fall flat?

I dont think that there should be a list of certain cards since new tech and metas change....something like drop of honey would not have been included in such a list several months ago, but since it has popped up as an idea it would be a card that stax players might want to play with...If there were to be a list it would have to be an average price range list...drop of honey would then qualify as a $20-30 card...

This in of itself falls short of optimal since prices change all the time, and each shop/organizer would have different price ranges...

I just hate to see 30 card proxy decks, or unlimited proxies...both of these seem to reduce the amount of support we would receive from shops and from wizards themselves...same can be said of a list of proxies....

To make this format fair to 100% of magic players (starting at a brand new player purchasing singles for the first ever time) we would have to proxy the following

9 for the power cards
4-8 for the step just below in price (since decks like ubastax run 4 shops AND 4 bazaars)
4-8 for Duals (Dragon runs as many as 7 or 8 duals in UGB form)
4 for Force of Will (legacy might drive the price up even more and it will make them even harder to find)
1 for mana crypt
4 or so for random hard to find/expensive cards like drop of honey, or old man of the sea, or chains of mephistopheles...

Thats over 30 already....!

One of the problems I see and I have heard many people complaining about is that playing against 30+ basic plains looks terrible and makes it difficult at times to gauge the game state without re-reading every proxy on the board...

IF proxy numbers ever got that high I think we would have to have something to fill in...maybe by forcing ALL players to use printouts of the cards from say workstation or other source. (it woudl have to be all players with any number of proxies so as not to mark a deck.)

This just seems to be a discussion that leads to more discussions that is getting no where....somebody will have to run some bigger proxy tourneys on their own and just see what happens....

[Smmenen]

That's alot of questions.  Let me put it this way - for two years I have been sporadically holding unlimited proxy events in Columbus.  You can find some of the reported results on morphling.de.  Those tournaments went really really well from the players point of view.  Just because you permit unlimitd proxy events does not mean that someone actually has a full proxy deck.  The simple fact of the matter is that not one time did a player come in with an all proxy deck.  The usual case was that a few cards were proxied.  But permitting unlimited proxies made possible maximum flexiibility and also made the players feel welcome even if they had an usually high number of proxies. 

It also helped that we preferred, but did not require, picture proxies. 

The reality is that the players themselves who have proxies would prefer not to use them.  In other words, say some guy came in with a Fish deck at our tournament - if he could, he would like to buy as many components to the fish deck from the store as the store had in stock. 

The results may seem counterintuitive, but the unlimited proxy tournaments actually resulted in solid sales for the store, with almost no deck with more than 10 proxies, and a great time by everyone. 

[Lunar]

not every tourney organizer likes/allows picture proxies though.....

and if you mean drawing on the card.......you dont want to see my art.

I just hate to see (and it happens, dont deny it) people proxy cards like land grant, or commons in general...even uncommons from more recent sets shouldnt be proxyable....its just lazy...

What if we did some odd system like unlimited proxies from before ice age (or somewhere in that era), and unlimited proxies for rares after that period in time....

[Smmenen]

The results may seem counterintuitive, but the unlimited proxy tournaments actually resulted in solid sales for the store, with almost no deck with more than 10 proxies, and a great time by everyone. 

[forests failed you]

I fail to see what the problem is with people proxying commons or uncommons;  If a person has spent the money on a Lotus or a Recall and doesn't need to proxy those cards, then he or she shouldn't be held to a different standard than people who need to proxy power.  That way the proxy rule helps out both types of players, those who need to proxy power, and those who already have power.  I know it helps me out when I show up at a random proxy event and I'm missing some random inexpensive or oddball card, like Recoup, Gaea's Blessing, or Gorilla Shaman, because since I have the power I don't have to shell out an extra few bucks to buy cards I already own but forgot to bring with me.

[Lunar]

what I mean is that for "new" players.....

if you are new and have one deck you should have all the little stupid back up cards....if you really want to play 2-land belcher you should own land grants...

I find it hard to believe that a player like you brian doesnt own gorilla shamans...

Im looking for a middle ground here....I find unlimited proxies to be unappealing, but I do understand that some cards are very difficult to find at times and that number of hard to find cards is slowly increasing...

The cards you named are all integral parts of their respective decks currently...I would understand your argument if it was about some odd ball SB card since some oddball deck showed up...not everybody is going to have maybe something like magus of the unseen sitting around in their play binder...but everybody playing gifts/oath/stax is going to have the basic pieces to make their deck work...or at least should shell out $1 to get a set of shamans at the shop. (shops generally have things like recoup, blessing, shaman in stock...)

I realize the BEST way to get more brand new players into the format is more proxies....I just find it hard to believe that we need to ever go as far as unlimited proxies...12 seems good if we really really MUST go up right away.

[forests failed you]

I do not own Gorilla Shamans currently.


I only own Foil and Beta cards, everything else I either borrow or proxy.

From the perspective of a serious Type 1 player who owns all of the big stuff, I like five proxy because it affords me the opportunity to not have to be constantly picking up all of the random garbage cards that I may or may not want to play again from week to week.  Being able to play 10 proxy helps out both sides in different ways.  It allows the people without the money cards to be competative, however it also provides players who have it the opportunity to be lax about finding the random inexpensive cards, or having to buy crappy uncommons that they don't actually care to own in non asian foil versions.

[Lunar]

I can agree with that...in fact I personally find the 10 proxy area to be perfect....I was simply trying to find SOMETHING that people would like better since people are whining...

If it was my choice we would stay at 10 proxies...for similar reasons as your own (although I own more than just foil asian or beta cards...although you could always get some cool signed shamans like mine  )

[Lou]

Some old school players from my area showed up at FNM this week with lots of really pretty Beta and Alpha shit and quite a bit of power that I didn't realize was in the area.  As one of a few in Colorado Springs that truly loves Type 1, I go out of my way to get more people to play.  When I asked these gentlemen if they were interested in one of the few local Type 1 tournaments, they said probably not, as they had some of the cards, but not enough, to be competitive.  My response was that proxies were now standard fare at Type 1 tournaments, unless they were sanctioned, which only a few are, and these guys were almost upset that I even brought proxies up.  They absolutely could not believe that proxies are used in tournaments, and that the Type 1 community has embraced it.  I tried to explain that it was a necessary evil to help the community grow, but they were having none of it.  Has anyone else ran into this sort of problem?  If so, how did you respond?

[forests failed you]

Then let those guys sell their power to me if they don't like it!

I think that at first the idea seems kind of shady or cheep, but once a person plays and sees what a good and fun enviornment it creates, most naysayers are silenced.  Also, the main group of people who tend to not like ten proxy are the guys who buy all of the cards and try to win because they have better cards that their opponents can't afford.  And who really cares what the douche bags think anyways?  For Christsake this is MTG no Yu-Gi-Oh!  Money should not directly influence your ability to be competative in the format, even in the games most expensive format.

Type one is a Hobby, and it requires some investment to play.  Having to pay $400 dollars instead of $4400 dollars seems to be a pretty big helping hand if you ask me.  And although it doesn't necessarily save a player from eventually having to buy duals, forces, and other expensive mid ranged cards; I would compare playing type one to building a model railroad table.  If you want to have it, you have to put some money in.  Its a hobby not a freebee.  Type one is an expensive hobby, nobody is denying that, Proxy is a stepping stone that allows new players to actually compete with older players, and it is built in with the assumption that players might eventually want to buy and play with real cards.

I agree, ten proxy is great.  People should stop bitching so much and just accept it.  Give the format some time and let it grow a little bit, and then see what could be done to help it along a little more after there is more evidence that it needs some sort of boost or adjustment.  The Ten Proxy is a relatively new innovation for Type 1, but all indications show that it is growing and creating a very fun and positive enviornment in which to play Magic Cards.

If I had signed Shamans I would put them in my good binder.

[Lou]

It's not that these guys are being dicks or anything, they just are not used to the idea of proxies in Type 1.  I dare to say, but think of what you would have thought, circa 1994-6, if some one said at a tournament, dude, what do you mean I can't proxy up my power?  This is the timeframe these guys are from, and thus that is their line of thinking.  I want these guys to be interested in Type 1, not to shun it because proxies are acceptable in an unsanctioned event.

[forests failed you]

That is all fine and good, but if people can't understand that moxes now cost about 300/400 dollars a pop, and that people just can't afford that... well, then I think they are being a little bit unreasonable.  Give them time to come around to the idea, and I'm sure that they will come around once they have either a. experienced how much fun a proxy tournament is, or b, realize the logic and intended fairness behind the proxy scene (since power is EXPENSIVE).  I think that a lot of players with some power react that way initially, however once you explain to them how it works and why it works the way it does, they usually come to the same logical conclusion that most of us have.  ITS GOOD FOR THE GAME.

[Lunar]

Its a hobby not a freebee

This was my position early on...it seems though brian that we are in the minority here...

I fully expect players to get MOST of the cards to play...10 proxies seems fine to me, but I would understand a switch to 12...15 even feels to high for me.

[b-tings]

Type one is an expensive hobby, nobody is denying that, Proxy is a stepping stone that allows new players to actually compete with older players, and it is built in with the assumption that players might eventually want to buy and play with real cards.

This assumed desire is what I was trying to reinforce with a staggered tournament scene. I know lots of people like the ones you are talking about, including myself, who fully intend to build up the power when they get the chance. There are others I know that will simply spend the minimum amount they can on the best deck they can play, and sell off power they win instead of building up their set. I think a staggered tournament scene allows those who really can't afford power to still play the game at an excellent level for excellent prizes, while giving those who work towards their set of cards a nice bonus a couple of times a year.

I'm probably trying to bring this conversation in another circle it doesn't need to be in. Just thought I should throw something out to counter the "We'll let you play, but not with the big boys" interpretation. This secondary sactioned circuit wouldn't be a loss to the unpowered (well, except that it might take away from a possible proxy tournament instead and possible prizes for said tournament. :/ So yeah, it really would be), but rather a nice bonus to the powered.

[forests failed you]

I think that the only bonus players with power really need to have is the fact that they know they own power.  In many ways collecting pimp cards is one of the coolest parts of playing Magic in my opinion.  Players who sell the power they win and never try to actually own it, while being able to play the game, miss out on one of the best parts of the game.  Collecting.  I'm sure Jdizzle will agree with me here, as I can attest to the fact that does indeed have some very fine cards.

[God_Campbell]

yes i would also like to chime in on the fact that owning power is just something special that should be chariest not sold off within 5 minutes of a tournament win.....
Pimp Cards are special to most t1 players cause it reflects something you can do to make your deck personalized and "you"
But i still think anymore than 12 proxies is just not right 12 is the ideal number in My eyes

[Xman]

This is my first time on this board in a while.  Magic fell by the wayside in order to work my ass off and be able to keep a roof over my head and food on my table.  I know, it sounds rather insignificant to some of you.

However, I still know this format, and I still know what I know.

Simple case and fact, playing with Power (I own 2, hopefull more soon) & drains (I have my playset) is pretty crucial to every controldeck in the format.  If I was unable to use proxies, honestly, I would probably get rid of what I had, and just started playing other formats.  With the fact I am working my way to a complete set of everything I need, I know it will take a long time on my very limited budget.  Proxies help me have a good shot at winning what I can and picking up a mox here or there for $15, 20 bucks and a days worth of time.  They are vital to the formats survivability.  The ultimate goal?  Everyone who plays has everything they need.

Is that a realisitic goal?  Prolly not.  But it is one goal.  Until then, we should work with proxies, allowing the appropriate amount for the area.  If that means large tournaments should be 12 proxies, then by all means, lobby for 12 proxies so people can play with what they want to be effective and WIN thier first mox/Recall/Lotus/Drain.  The feeling of winning one for the first time is amazing.

Alas, where I live, there are very few people who play the format.  Most of the people who play are younger, and newer to the game.  All they know is Type 2.  However, I am hoping that my resources will allow me to help bring in more and more, for example, get type 1 staples into town, and start offering them as prizes for Type 1 tournaments with about 20 proxies and a low enough entry fee that just covers the cost of the prizes.  Slowly build it up from winning a couple of Forces or duallies to winning Shops, 'zaars, drains, moxes, etc.

I guess I should attempt to clarify what I am saying.  We have to, no, MUST help newer players to discover the joy of the format we all play, know, and yes, love.  Without them, it has no future, and will shrival and fade away.  Then we can all look at our cards, saying why the hell did I spend so much on those things?  This format is on the crest of a wave.  When the wave breaks, we have to be there to either have the best ride there can possibly be, saving the format, or we will get crushed by the blue, and this format will come to a screeching halt very very quickly.  And by us, I mean the hardcore players, the TO's, and everyone who cares about this format, or just enjoys it.

Steve is right at how this format can come crashign down around us on any day.  I suggest that we give it a solid chance at surviving, even with the SCG P9 series coming around for another go with us, we need to get new blood, new players into our format, and right now, that means reducing the cost.  Allow proxies, and allow the proper amount so all players stand a fair chance of winning the next Waterbury, cardwise at least.

[ROLAND]

Actually, on the whole reprint idea. If we speculate for a minute, you might start seeing reprints of power cards that give you options like the new duals from Ravnica. 

For example:  Painful recall= look at the top three cards  of you library and put them back on top of your library in any order. You may pay 1 life per card you wish to keep in your hand.

Keep in mind the  painful reprint is automatically restricted to one per deck. This eliminates proxies and gives all players access to the power nine effects at a cost.  Players with Power retain the value of their cards, new players get less expensive power.
 
You could even go so far as to say. You can have either an ancestrall recall or a "painful recall", but not both.

This is just speculation, but after seeing the latest duals it is pretty clear that wizards can do a whole lot better than chrome mox when it comes to trying to fix power mistakes. Or get more people into the format. 


I'm probably just full of it, so take these thoughts for what they are worth.

Roland

[Marton]

wizard said they have to be run over a bus before they reprint stuff like mana drain. If you think they'll reprint an ancestral recall I think you're going to be disappointed.

[Revvik]

I was talking reprint for availability - not reprint so Type II can have this much fun 
Not quite what they did with Mind's Desire, but they'd have to make sure that it was insta-banned in every other format.

[b-tings]

I think they would have some problems with insta-banning a bunch of cards to reprint them for Type 1. A) If they were rares, you'd have a bunch of people screaming at Wizards for printing rares they couldn't play. They could avoid this by making them commons, but B) Ever played with Ancestral Recall in limited? There was talk of banning Empyrial Armor for limited back in the day. "Painful" Ancestral, "Painful" Time Walk, and "Painful" Lotus would cause problems in the rare slot, never mind as commons. C) Wizards would pretty much be flipping off every other format for Type 1 by printing cards that could only legally be used there. I don't see it happening any time soon.