It's time to have a Serious Discussion about Proxies Again

[Smmenen]

On one side of the whole debate used to be that proxies were bad becuase Magic was a "collectible" card game.  The other side was that proxies were good becuase they enabled people to play the format. 

At the time, there were strong arguments on both sides.  The whole notion of proxies is antithetical to the business model that supports magic (assuming constructed is still part of the business model).  Even if it isn't, the philosophy of proxies is at odds with the philosophy of the company. 

But we have reached a point where it isn't even about being a "collectible" card game anymore.  I suppose it is arguable that I am a collector when I try to foil out all of my decks.  But does it seem a little absurd to claim that paying $1000 for a black lotus is acquring a card to "collect" it?  I could see that when Black Lotus was $200 and Moxen were $125 that, sure, that was collecting and spending that much money to play some cards you'll want to use forever makes sense.  But those prices are long gone and Mana Drain now costs as much as a Sapphire did two and half years ago. 

I think we have reached a new point where proxies aren't a question anymore - it is a matter of how far.

If SCG announced tommorrow that all of their P9 events would be unlimited proxy - does anyone here think that that would affect the price of power by even 1%?  In fact, I think it would tend to make the price of power go up!  Why?  Huge turnout makes the format more popular and the price of power continues to rise.   I'm not sitting here advocating unlimited proxies, but I no longer think that 10 is adequate. 

I made a very keen observation after reading through the decklists after the last SCG Chicago (which I didn't attend).  I noticed that less than 20% of the decks were budget decks.  That means that 120ish players were playing full powered decks.  In Chicago.  And trinisphere was just restricted!  Granted, there was almost no Fish in that environment, but it illustrates a point:

People don't play this format in tournament with suboptimal decks   If they can't play the optimal decks, they tend not to come.  And they are right.

From an economics point of view, it is absurd that any of us actually own power.  I play in probably less than ten serious tournaments a year.  The fun I get out of those tournaments is certainly alot.  But if I sold my collection tommorrow (with mostly beta power, Workshops, Drains, Bazaars, Masks, a million awesome foils, etc) I would get a fuckton of money.  Everyone has their price.  If the price of power keeps going up, it becomes completely irrational to keep playing when you could cash out.  The flip side is that it is even dumber to try and buy your way in.  This format is just highly inaccessible.  It is a bloody wonder we get the crowds we do - which is a testament to the formats allure. 

What Vintage needs is not just people playing it - it needs growth.  I think that Legacy will flop becuase it will be crushed under the weight of its own access issues.  Vintage can't be bogged down by skyrocketing prices. 

What I'm saying is that we need to fundamentally rethink our approach to proxies.  The company clearly isn't going to be helpful in that regard by printing "gold" bordererd power or anything of that nature that would make proxying easier.  We need to find a way to overcome the barrier to proxying so that more proxies can be used.

One of the arguments against proxies (the practical argument) is that it is hard to monitor.  SCG makes you proxy on lands for that reason.  We need solutions becuase ten proxies isn't getting it done and will soon be dire constraint if it already isn't.  What do you think?  How many proxies should be standard?  15?  20?  What other issues would arise as a result?  Ten just seems way too few....

[fitz712]

i agree i think 10 proxies is too few as well. seeing how power keeps on growing dramatically 10 proxies really is just to few. i think that the idea of 15-20 proxies would be alot better for players than 10 proxies.

[Null Rob]

I believe that 15 proxies should become the standard for Vintage tournaments.  Once we start using 20+, it can become quite tedious.  Imagine playing against an opponent with 1/3 or even 1/2 of his or her deck comprised of proxies.  It would cause games to move much more slowly when one is required to ask their opponent "what card is that again?" and "how exactly is it worded?" every time theat opponent casts a spell, and (it seems) that it would cause an obscene amount of rounds to be drawn because game 3 could not be finished because of all the time wasted explaining a card's relevant text. 
15 seems to be the correct number because it allows a deckbuilder to use the full P9, a Library of Alexandria, and a set of Mana Drains/Bazaars of Baghdad/Mishra's Workshops/Illusionary Masks when constructing their deck.  If one wants to compete seriously in Type 1, I don't think it's too much to ask of them to buy 4 or 5 sets of dual lands, 3 sets of fetchlands, a set of Force of Wills, and a couple of T1 staples such as Demonic Tutor, Yawg's Will, etc. 

[Machinus]

The best policy is to allow players to proxy only the most expensive or rare cards. I have seen a few tournaments that allow proxying of only certain cards, such as shops, drains, bazaars, masks, power, and hard to get cards like chains. I can see allowing non-reprinted P3K stuff also. This seems to be more common in Europe and it seems like a great idea.

[Mark_Story]

I think 15 proxies is optimal as well.  It not only makes power accessible to all, it also affords people to play drains/shops/bazzars, with their power.  Something you can't really do with 10 proxies.  Furthermore, it lowers the cost of entry significantly for someone who just wants to 'try' vintage out.  With 15 proxies, they can play a more budget deck like WTF, Fish, goblins, without having to splurge for duals, FOW, etc.  I think this is important, because without any new players the format will stagnate.  So by creating provisions for players to try out a vintage deck/tournament without needing to sink a few $100 into duals and FOW.  The format becomes far more accessible for people with cards from extended, and standard.

[ROLAND]

Just in case anyone is interested, I was visiting another magic website and found an article regarding a site selling proxies for a buck a piece.

In my opinion, the artwork is pretty cool,  and for about $13.00 with shipping I got a set of power 9 proxies.

I hate scribbling on a random basic land, and I don't have the funds to for real power so these will do. They are generic enough that you can tell what they are, and still avoid copyright issues. This is still more than Wizards has ever considered doing.

As far as proxies go 10-15 is fine by me. I like the fact that I now have a shot at being somewhat competitive. From a person who doesn't own Power, I think not allowing proxies is penalizing people for not being around during the early years of Magic. 

Just thought I'd give my two cents. If you want the site, PM me and I'll let you know what it is.

Roland

[Glix]

I feal that 12 proxies is optimal right now.  About every deck plays 5 moxen, recall, walk, lotus, and 4 of either bazaar/workshop/drains.  Only a few decks run more than that, and storm based decks and fish decks run less.  More than 12 is really uneeded.

I also feal that their should be a limit.  The format has a cost, aside from the rediculus cost of the power and their bazaar/workhop/drain partners, all cards are at a reasonable cost.  In fact, with 12 proxies, about every viable deck in type 1 becomes equivelent to, if not cheaper than, most Type 2 decks.  Most people should be able to dish out the money for some duels and some fetches, some basic artifacts, some powerful key cards, and that will cost less than type 2 as the tier 1 in standard usually has a few sets of 15-20 dollar cards.

Right now, the only thing that stops me from playing THE most powerful decks is the fact that I need 2 of either drains, workshops, or some power.  In fact, owning no drains, workshops, power, and only 2 bazaars, I am fine with the 10 proxy limit as is.  I don't expect I will ever purchase power, but I won't need to.  With but 2 more proxies, I could play any deck I wanted to.

However, when you get to 15 proxies and more, I feal the card game is compromised, personally.  If you are going to play that game, you should have to buy something, there should be some initial investment.  Duel lands are really not that expensive.  In fact, they cost about as much as BoP.  Equilizing the playing field is fine to an extent, but having 20 dollar cards is not the issue.  The issue is 200 dollar cards.  This issue is 1000 dollar black lotus.  Few players can aford that, or would be willing to.  When you get beyond that, it just gets rediculus.  Large touraments would have far too much netdecking for a healthy format.  Anyone could just get 60 basic lands and a sharpy and jump right in, and, imo, that would ruin the format.

So, imo, the number of proxies should be in direct relation to that amount of ridiculously costed cards that are essentiall mandatory to have in any given deck.  At this point in time, I believe that that is 12.  15 would be fine aswell, as that allows for 3 random "I don't feal like getting it" cards, or just 3 "I don't feal like looking through boxes of cards for it" cards.  More than 15-16, however, is really overdoing it I think.

[Dralock]

I find the concept of proxying more than ten cards quite amusing. Most people in Houston, when talking about formats besides those at PTQ's, want to talk about Legacy. Why? Because legacy is basically Vintage, but a whole lot cheaper. Now that people here in this area have a large stigma about the price of cards, it is hard to get them to even consider playing; no matter what the proxy limit, they think Vintage is too "broken". It takes time and effort to learn how to play with powerful cards. It requires a lot, and I mean a lot, of skill to get your game plan on line without randomly losing. People think that it is always going to take hundreds, if not thousands, of dollars just to play the game. So they lose interest, and play Legacy. To prove a point, there are two mox tournaments here in town in the next couple of weeks. One is going to be Legacy, and the other block constructed. I asked the store owner why block constructed when you are playing for one of the flagship vintage cards, and he said "because its going to be the most fair for everone."

What is fair?

Is fair throwing someone a type 2 ravager affinity deck with a sol ring and proxied moxen in to a group of people who regularly play Vintage to be eaten alive? Is fair letting the workshop aggro player actually have access to recall and time walk? Is fair putting everyone on a level playing field to be eaten alive by those who dominate the game? Is fair banning all expensive cards, and the enablers for the decks those cards support, completely? How many proxies do we give out to people? Where do we draw the line on making something "fair"? In our quest to make things fair, are we only enabling those who are great to be that much greater? Will there be a day when someone is proxying only the newest cards as they come out, as they already have their entire deck made up from tournament winnings?

Maybe we should just take the most expensive cards, and the cards that enable the decks they support, and say you can only proxy THOSE cards. Maybe an economic compromise can be reached between tournament / shop owners and the players if it was just an accepted rule that power, drains, bazaars and workshops can be real or fake, and everything else that requires less than a certain dollar amount to purchase be the responsibility of the deckbuilder.

[Komatteru]

Ok, time for my opinion.  I am very biased in this matter, as I've been called an elitist before. I pretty much accept that as being true, and those who know me personally (or have met me at a tournament and such) certainly have their own opinions.

This story seems to ramble off topic, but I promise you it has a point.  "Terse" has never been a good word to describe me, as many of you have probably figured out by now.

Flash back to last summer.  I was just coming off a nearly 2 year break.  When I was into the game heavily before high school activities dragged me away for a few months, I was always into "Type 1."  Now, this was "Type 1" as most people think of it: old cards.  The year was 1998 or 1999.  I acquired a set of Force of Wills (then $2), nearly complete set of revised dual lands (then $10-15), set of Mana Drains ($30-35 for English ones), Mox Sapphire ($125), Ancestral Recall ($130), and Timetwister ($110), among all sorts of other things.  When I came back to Magic last summer at my roommate's idea that we should go to Origins, I found out the local store I had played at years ago was still there, although with a different name and owner, the third or fourth such change since I went there the first time, and was holding weekly Type 1 tournaments on Monday.  I had been revamping my Type 1 deck, and was awaiting a set of Tropical Islands I had purchased on eBay for $65 (with a throw in of 17 beta basic islands and plains), and they hadn't yet got there.  So I took my extended Counterhammer deck (it was good in 2000), added back in Force of Wills and Volcanic Islands, and tossed the few pieces of power I had in there.  No, I didn't even add Mana Drain, as I didn't have anything to drain into (maybe aside from AK on a stick).  Yes, it was as bad as it sounds.  Naturally, I get rolled.

I came back the next week with a deck with lots more real type 1 cards in it, but the deck was still a total disaster.  I got rolled once again.  The week after, I make some more changes and the result is infinitely better, but still really bad.  The deck has Brainstorm and fetches in it now, but still runs jank like The Abyss and Morphling, on one Mox, a Sol Ring and a set of Mana Drains.  I think it's got Cunning Wishes as well at this point.  So I go to Origins and get rolled for the better part of the first three tournaments.  I somehow manage to beat Carl Winter (playing GAT) on Saturday, despite going into the match with an "OMG! World Champ! This guy is just plain better than me."  (Little did I realize how much everyone was really better than me.)  So somehow, I hack my way to a 4th place on Sunday, feel good about myself, whatever.  I go back to Michigan and get stomped one more week.  I decide to change my deck some more.  It was like 5cc with all sorts of randomness in it (and no draw engine), and I decide to "adopt Keeper."  Angels, Decrees, Scrying, etc. all go into my deck (I think the Scrying might have been there before, but I can't remember), and I end up with bascially unpowered 4cc (but with Mana Drain).  Now, the field in Michigan is all fully powered.  Mark Biller is playing Draw7 at this point in time, Brian Demars is playing fully powered 4cc, Josh Franklin is playing fully powered Hulk, and the Canadians are playing ~something~ but have full power.  Essentially, the entire meta is fully powered and I'm not.  Oh yeah, Ben Perry  (everythingitouchdies) is playing Dragon at this point in time, with a few pieces of power missing.  Needless to say, I don't do especially well with my revised deck either.  I buy a few power cards, such as a LoA and a Time Walk over the summer, but am saving all the cash I make working in the drug store to buy a huge freaking TV (I ended up with a 51" Samsung DLP....man it's sexy).

Eventually, I make a switch to Fish, as I actually own all the power cards that belong in it.  I'm still playing in a metagame that's fully powered (it's all sanctioned, and MI was a non-proxy environment--even non-sanctioned events--anyway until very recently).  So, I'm an underpowered player playing an underpowered deck at this point in time.  I do ok with it.  I make some T4s in our weekly events, still get no respect from Mark, Brian (I still don't think Brian respects me to this day, but w/e), or anyone else, but at least I pull home some prize every now and then.  I still get smashed a lot, but I'm generally at least winning as many matches as I lose on a night, and sometimes I win more than I lose.  I'd play the deck at Gencon to an unstellar 3-3-2 record, but I made a lot of progress that day and learned a whole lot, so I considered it a success.  After that, I'd start corresponding with Ben Perry through email (and completing the rest of my set of power), and he introduced me to this deck he dug up from somewhere (this was a few weeks before Steve's 3 part primer) called "DeathLong" somewhere in September, and the rest follows from there.

So what's the point of all this?  I played for a long time with subpar cards in an environment full of great cards.  At the end, I was winning more than I was losing, and the night before Gencon, I defeated Mark Biller in the first round of T4.  The loss greatly upset him, and he took Ben's advice to add Mystical Tutor to Slaver (After that, we all went to Ram's Horn and did some testing, and about 8 straight games ended with Tinker or Mystical Tutor for Tinker, finding Platz).  In any case, I played with the cards I had.  In order to win, I really had to be that much better than my opponents, since their cards were really better than mine.  I suffered a lot for it, and when I finally completed my set of power, I felt I really earned the right to play with those cards. 

So, regarding the number of proxies, I currently feel like 10 is the right number.  I really do think that everyone should have to purchase one or two expensive cards (Drains, Shops, Moxes, w/e you like) in order to play the best deck.  You can often get away with running one or two less power cards in a deck, and I feel that sacrifice should be there if we're going to let people play with what they don't have.  Most decks can function perfectly well without Time Walk (Oath, Slaver, etc.), so there's one card right there players can live without.  While the cost of format staples is high, I don't think it's overly prohibitive.  I think that in all reality, the cost of acquiring all the format staples is cheaper than playing T2 for a year.  Once you have the duals and the Forces, they go in any pretty much deck.  In fact, any deck you will likely want to build will use those cards.  You need to have a set of several $10-12 cards to build all the good T2 decks, and very often, different cards are needed for each deck (no overlap, like you have with duals and forces).  In addition, new $10-12 cards aren't coming out every 3 months, and you don't have to change your deck whenever a new set is released; the cards don't lose their value when a deck becomes subpar, and there's no price dive when a rotation happens (since there's no rotation).

That's my current attitude.  It's very elitist, and I'll admit it.  I personally hate proxies, and if you ever see me play one, it means I've made a last minute change to my deck by adding a card that no one I know owns, or I've loaned out a piece or two of my power to a friend so he could build the deck the way it's supposed to within the proxy limit.  I just feel that there is value in having to sacrifice a little when you first start playing Vintage.  I think it makes you work harder and ultimately improves your skill.  There is more satisfaction to be had in a win where you know you didn't have nearly as good of cards as your opponent did (I speak from experience), because you had to work that much harder for it.  I don't expect everyone to do what I had to do, but I don't see missing one or two power cards (one of which is often not even essential) as a huge burden.  You can still be competitive enough to do well.  No one expects every card for the other constructed formats to just be given to them, so I think that should still carry over a little to Vintage.  10 proxies is a lot.  It's really a gift.  There's no "right" to play with cards you don't have.  It is in the best interest of the format to allow proxies, naturally, but recognize that it's not something anyone would do for any other format.  I don't think we'll see Legacy proxy tournaments, and there's a lot of good expensive cards in there: duals, Moat, Abyss, Chains, etc.

EDIT:
Oh yeah, one last thing.  Despite my elitist attitude, one thing I always remember is that while I was trying to get better, none of the "good players" had any interest in helping me in the slightest.  I make it a point to provide someone I see in the position I was last year with some helpful advice--a step in the right direction.  I won't hand out metagame analyses, decklists, deep strategies or anything like that.  Just friendly advice I had to discover on my own last year that no one (save one person) had any interest in helping me with.  Anyone who's ever talked to me knows that.

[Detroit]

It's my personal opinion that while 10 proxies seems to be the new developing standard for proxy counts in tournaments it should be raised by a few proxies, perhaps to the 12-15 proxy range. My feeling for this increase  it that it allows those players without the more expensive cards in the format a chance to try it out by proxying some dual lands and some other type 1 staples they may not have and playing a budget deck. While often not the most optimal decks, or the most finely tuned list, it gives newer players a taste of the format while still allowing them to be somewhat competitive, which is an important piece to them enjoying the format. If they decide they enjoy playing type 1, then they can go invest in the staple cards like demonic tutor, fetchlands etc. and then use their proxies for power and play other decks, increasing their competitiveness and the competition level of the tournaments they participate in. This keeps it fun for everyone, as those who enjoy playing type 1 can do so without getting another job or selling their car to acquire power and those who have power don't have to face less than optimal decks like Sui Black or Parfait or something at a tournament, increasing their enjoyment as well.

In the end it seems to me that the rising popularity of this format over the past year plus has been both good and bad, as it has brought in a slew of new players but in turn has increased the prices of many type 1 cards to a level that is quite steep for those still looking to get in on the action. Thus, I feel that the proxy limit should rise slightly to meet this rise in prices and keep the new faces coming and allowing them to be competitive.

[islanderboi10]

Here in Washington state, we run 12 proxy tournaments. This always seems to be the right amount because most decks need 8 power and 4 drains or 4 Workshops. Most combo decks run 9 power, but nothing reallyt needs to be proxied after that. So in my opinion, you should have 12 proxy tournaments, it seems to be the right amount.

[Ben Kossman]

Extremely relevant topic. If the game is going to move to the level it belongs (w/Poker & Chess) then proxies shouldn't even be an issue.  The question is to how to prevent proxies from ruining real life Magic.

[Cab]

I actually agree with JDizzle on this one. I think that 10 proxies is adequate. I did not read his whole argument, and even though I own no cards that are worth more than $10, I think that having more than 10 proxies would be pretty dumb IMO. I don't think that people should be able to play any deck that they want without having to pay at least SOME money for the more expensive cards.

Now, I do not even have close to enough money to buy a set of shops, bazaars, or any other "semi-expensive" things that cost around $600 for a set of cards that used to be around $120 not even 2 years ago! I think that if you can proxy more than 10 cards, then you lose respect for the game and how cool the cards actually are that cost that much to obtain. I'm pretty sure that everyone here has respect for the game, and I don't think that there should be more than 10 proxies in a tournament.

Plus, proxies make the game slower like someone has previously argued before me (sorry that I forgot your name) when people have to keep on asking their opponent "how is that card worded" or "what does that do again" or "Is this a legal proxy" (don't know how often that comes up, but I assume it would come up more often it many proxies were legal).

Being able to have roughly 15% of my deck as proxies is something I consider to be a privelage. I can proxy cards that I don't have the money to afford and that I don't want to spend the time trying to acquire (not completely what I think, but I thought that I would just bring it up anyways).

Let's face it folks, Vintage is about money, and for the format to stay that way, which I want it to oddly enough, there needs to be no more than 10 proxy tournaments.

However, I do agree with what Machinus said about being able to use however many proxies you want, but only being able to do the expensive cards. Actually, as I type that, I disagree with it more and more, so I stick to my point: Vintage is a game of money. It is not Extended, Type 2 or any other format where you only have to spend $200 for a competitive deck. You have to spend $thousands for a competitive deck, and I think it should stay that way.

[shade88]

I believe 12 proxies is the correct number for vintage for a couple of reasons.

1.) Players don't have to have access to every deck to play type 1 ( riddler, vroman stax). They just have to have access to the best deck. 10 proxies does not give a player access to the "best" decks, without forcing him to spend an amount of money significantly more than type 2 or even extended. Meandeck gifts, giftsungivien.dec, mana drain.dec, dragon, and workshop.dec are all unavailabe to many players in type 1. Players can managae to find the money to drop on duals, forces, etc. just like they do for kokushos and cranials in type 2, it's when you have to work so hard to get the duals and force of wills, and then you realize you are still down 2 cards that cost ~$200 to complete your deck that it gets really discouraging. Playing with a deck that is suboptimal will discourage many, many players from playing that deck.

2.) What purpose does 15 proxies serve that 12 doesn't? There is a huge, astronomical difference from 10 proxies to 12 proxies. Ask any good player if he would run control slaver on 5 moxen, a lotus, time walk, ancestral recall, and 2x mana drain. Not only is more play skill required to break even with a player who runs power and 4x mana drain, it is just plain demoralizing to play a suboptimal deck. There has to be a line though.The power 9 etc. do not have their value because of jaw-dropping, one of a kind art, because of their superior collectibility, or their status. Power 9 have a huge dollar value because they make a deck significantly better, so much better, that many people would pay hundreds more to make sure they have a 2 card advantage in a deck (2x mana drains vs 4x mana drains). And the reason this makes the power 9 worth $500 dollars a pop is because the assumption goes that your opponent won't have this significant advantage unless he shelled out big cash like you did.

For the format to really grow and power 9 to maintain value, every one must have access to manadrain.dec and workshop.dec, but nothing further. If a player wants to master riddler, he can win his power or be content with manadrain.dec. I don't want to get into how prices would fluctuate right now, but so long as the format continues to grow, and owning expensive cards provides and advantage (no matter how big or small--not too small), the price of power will continue to rise.   

[islanderboi10]

Shade, thank you for agreeing. But, you basically pointed it out. With 12 proxies, we can't play The most expensive decks, but we can play good decks. Some of the most expensive decks are the best decks, but we have acecess to the best decks with 12 proxies. Most decks need 8 power and 4 drains or 4 workshops. That's 12 proxies right there. Combo only needs 9 power and whatever else the player can't get  ahold of. Only certain decks run mroe power cards than that. Like Vromans Stax deck. It needs 4 Bazaar of Baghdads. But thanks for making my point Shade...

[Smmenen]

Extremely relevant topic. If the game is going to move to the level it belongs (w/Poker & Chess) then proxies shouldn't even be an issue.  The question is to how to prevent proxies from ruining real life Magic.

I think this summarizes my feelings in two sentences. 

But no one has answered my question:
If SCG announced that they were going unlimited proxies for the rest of thier P9 events (only four more left), do you think it would negatively affect the price of power at all ?

[shade88]

But no one has answered my question:
If SCG announced that they were going unlimited proxies for the rest of thier P9 events (only four more left), do you think it would negatively affect the price of power at all ?

I think increasing scg P9 events to unlimited proxies would have two possible results.

In a nutshell

Result A: type 1 becomes even more power and those astronomically high prices continue to rise even higher. Because collectability might even become a factor for power 9.

Result B: regardless of what direction unlimited proxiess sends the format in, the value in power drops because there is no purpose to having power, other than style. However, I do not think the prices would drop significantly, only a little.

[Whatever Works]

I wouldnt mind more then 10 proxys (even though I own full power and havent proxied forever), but I am EXTREMELY fed up with HORRIBLE proxies... If people are going to right on the back of the common to replicate a card I payed alot of money for (before more proxies were allowed), they should at least be respectful ennough to do a good job of making good proxies... I have seen Mox Pearl scribbled on islands in ball point pen that isnt clear... I have seen bad proxies that make cards thicker... Its absolutetly redicules...

Personally I liked it was 5 proxies... but I am fine with 10.... Though If a person cant build an effective deck with 10 proxies they are pitiful. with 10 proxies you can build several of the budget decks, and If you cant shell $200 to the format when my deck is worth more then $4,000 then I have little to no sympathy for the person who cant spend $70 got set of FoW's etc.

[Smmenen]

My only response is:

Extremely relevant topic. If the game is going to move to the level it belongs (w/Poker & Chess) then proxies shouldn't even be an issue.  The question is to how to prevent proxies from ruining real life Magic.

I might even put that in my sig. 

[dandan]

Supply - constant
Demand - increasing

Can any economists give me a prediction for price trends?

Seriously guys, after the last couple of years, is anyone still saying that proxies hurt the secondary market?

[eddavatar]

The bottom line is, MtG is a collectable, as long as the game's alive, someone will be willing to pay hundreds for power.

As for proxies, as a poor college kid and a power owner, I see the arguement from both sides. To me, 10 proxies is really optimal number. Full proxy is just ridiculous, however. Sharpie is not acceptable in my view, neither.

[Morganti]

full proxy, is wonderful for events that are more about fun, and growing the format, and growing knowledge of hte format, as a whole.

Play test decks. App, MWS, ect.

For The Tournment Level, i think between 10-15 proxies is the best number, for both the effects of the secondary market, and that its a nice % of the average deck size, 1/3 of a deck can be proxied.

Some ways to alleviate the pressure and cost of entry into the Eternal Formats, might need to be examined, with options including a poke and the reserved list, and figuring out how to make it make sense to protect the collectors and buisnesses, but open the game up to the people who have only now discovered the formats.

Does anyone have any figures on what the colllecters editions did to the market tempoaraly?  since its pretty much stablized?

Could they do a Gold Bordered gift set of the early years of magic? could they do a silver boardered set with gold bordered foil power as tip ins?
The only thing that matters is

how to prevent proxies from ruining real life Magic.

[Gabethebabe]

Proxies around here are not regarded very well.

We´ve had a proxy tournament ONE time and he got something like 25-30 participants (and this was a Mox tourney).

Normally Mox tourneys get at least 50, in the city of Barcelona up to 80 people.
People just have the cards.

Sometimes you hear amazing stories from our shopkeeper, like some kid coming in, collecting the complete P9 and daddy paying a mere €4000 for it.

[Eddie]

I have one problem with proxies: they are dead ugly basic lands with text written on them. It's just not fun playing with them. It's not even that much fun playing against them.

Maybe it might be a good idea for TMD (or SCG for their tournaments) to print their own proxies? The P9, with LOA, drains and workshops and sell them for a small price. WotC will never print the proxies, but why couldn't we (unless of course the legal issue)? It will also be a support to TMD. I've seen a beta foil proxy lotus which looks awesome and it's nice to play with those.

Of course, this isn't a solution if you want to proxy something silly and cheap just because you don't have the common.

I don't care how many proxies people would use if they'd look nice.

I was playing a FCG guy last weekend and saw a mountain with some text on, and I immediately thought it was a proxy. So I took it to read it. Seems it was just a signed mountain

The best policy is to allow players to proxy only the most expensive or rare cards. I have seen a few tournaments that allow proxying of only certain cards, such as shops, drains, bazaars, masks, power, and hard to get cards like chains. I can see allowing non-reprinted P3K stuff also. This seems to be more common in Europe and it seems like a great idea.

The problem with that is that you give the non-powered player an advantage with this system. You allow someone who didn’t pay for the expensive cards to proxy, and someone who bought/traded for all the power can’t? We have this policy in the Eindhoven tournaments and it sucks. Note that it wouldn’t suck if the shop had the staple commons/uncommons/rares so we could actually buy them.

[Machinus]

The problem with that is that you give the non-powered player an advantage with this system. You allow someone who didn’t pay for the expensive cards to proxy, and someone who bought/traded for all the power can’t? We have this policy in the Eindhoven tournaments and it sucks. Note that it wouldn’t suck if the shop had the staple commons/uncommons/rares so we could actually buy them.

That's the whole point of the proxy debate. Do you want more people to play in tournaments (with proxied cards), or less (with real cards) ?

In the US, proxy tournaments lead directly to bigger numbers and more support for the format. It is a rare case when the opposite happens.

[49 Cents]

I've seen a beta foil proxy lotus which looks awesome and it's nice to play with those

If you mean mine, yeah, it's really cool, but the problem is that is isn't the same material as normal cards: It's simply alot thicker..

I like proxies, if 10 proxies are allowed that means that I'll get 6 exciting rounds, with opponents who actually do something rather then just sit there and drop forests or something. But my biggest problem with more then 10 proxies is that my board-vision is lost. I see like 5 written-on mountains and I truly don't know what's what anymore.. This bothers me, because if you make a mistake because you are unsure what is on the board it can cost you the game.

[Eddie]

The problem with that is that you give the non-powered player an advantage with this system. You allow someone who didn’t pay for the expensive cards to proxy, and someone who bought/traded for all the power can’t? We have this policy in the Eindhoven tournaments and it sucks. Note that it wouldn’t suck if the shop had the staple commons/uncommons/rares so we could actually buy them.

That's the whole point of the proxy debate. Do you want more people to play in tournaments (with proxied cards), or less (with real cards) ?

You probably misunderstood me. Obviously, I choose the first option if the proxies are nice enough, and not basic lands. What I meant with the part you quoted is that it's all or nothing: either everyone can proxy, or none can. And not only the people who don't own the expensive cards.

If you mean mine, yeah, it's really cool, but the problem is that is isn't the same material as normal cards: It's simply alot thicker..

Yes, it was yours. Shame it's thicker than regular foil cards.

[Machinus]

You probably misunderstood me. Obviously, I choose the first option if the proxies are nice enough, and not basic lands. What I meant with the part you quoted is that it's all or nothing: either everyone can proxy, or none can. And not only the people who don't own the expensive cards.

Ok, the second time around this sounds crazy. How do they enforce this? That is ridiculous. What a weird thing to do.

[Eddie]

Ok, the second time around this sounds crazy. How do they enforce this? That is ridiculous. What a weird thing to do.

They do that by doing the thing you and others on this thread suggested: you can only proxy the expensive cards (power, drains, workshops and bazaars). The unpowered player can thus proxy the power card whilst I can not even proxy a gifts ungiven (and the shop doesn't have one, otherwise I'd buy one before I proxy).

It seems logical from the shop owner’s point of view. He still wants to sell the staple cards used in decks. It's just too bad he doesn't have them in stock, which can be a pain to find out when you're in the shop.

Anyway, I feel we are getting off topic with this. If you have more questions about this or their policy, feel free to PM me.

[normalbrains]

my opinion: 10 proxies is perfectly fine. this is a format where an investment must be made if you want to perform at a high level. i dont want to look at a bunch basic lands with scribble on it. proxies are a neccessary evil for the health of the format, but lets not get carried away.