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Question: What proxy system do you think would work best?
5 Proxies - 21 (7.5%)
10 Proxies - 85 (30.4%)
11+ Proxies - 29 (10.4%)
Only cards above a certain $ amount (ie. $50, $100, etc) - 34 (12.1%)
5-10 Proxies plus some $ amount for each beyond - 102 (36.4%)
Unlimited - 9 (3.2%)
Total Voters: 278

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Moxlotus
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« Reply #30 on: July 14, 2005, 10:11:39 pm »

Quote
I guess the question comes to this, do the elitists who own power cards want to continue their monopoly of power as the number of type 1 players dies down, or do we make power accessable to everyone so that there will be an influx of new players and more competition.  With out new players and a growing following magic will die.   

You do realize that many of the biggest advocates of proxies, including some insisting on unlimited proxies, are these "elitists."  And since when is the number of type 1 players dying down?  Last time I checked, tournaments are getting larger and more frequent.

Next time, at least attempt to make yourself not look like an ass. Do you even know the definition of elitist?
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« Reply #31 on: July 14, 2005, 11:08:38 pm »

I agree. I own the power and think Proxies (limited to a reasonable number) are a great asset to the game. Before the proxir trend a couple years ago, you couldn't find a vintage tournament within 500 miles (made that number up.) Now, I could go to 2-3 a month if I wanted to drive a couple hours.

Plus, my team mate wouldn't play if there wasn't proxies since he doesn't have any power.
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« Reply #32 on: July 15, 2005, 01:22:05 am »

I'm glad that this has gotten some sort of reply Smile  Guys, very well thought out posts, and I think we are making some <i>real</i> progress.  The "Proxy Tax" (I like that name) system is a bit messy, but once the details are hammered out (How to collect said "Tax") I believe it will be the most successful.  It doesn't/most likely won't generate a great deal of revenue (especially at 10 proxy events) for the TO, but at least the option is there.  I think I would prefer to see a seven-proxy system.

Boo freaking hoo, you won't be able to proxy ALL of those Moxen, the Lotus AND the Ancestral and Walk.  Tough.  The players that -do- own power had to go through some effort and spend money to obtain those cards, and they paid a lot more than 1$ to be able to play with them.  In that situation, those players are really very fortunate to be able to get away with that.

See what happens when servers go down on World of Warcraft?  Stupid Blizzard...
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« Reply #33 on: July 15, 2005, 03:02:35 am »

The only thing i do not like about proxies is that the tournaments are not sanctioned. I do however acknowledge the need for proxies if vintage is to survive.

Proxies give more people access to vintage eventually leeding to more people actually wanting power as bigger tournaments will come around not allowing proxies and those epople caught by the vintage fever will also want to play in those.

I do not support a system of more than 10 proxies as i think that will pollute the game to much. Some people suggesting to just play 60 proxies is just ridiculous as most cards are still available. To support more proxies will make people dull net.deckers while now they still have to really think about their decks. Next to that this game still is a collectible cardgame, when allowing more than 10 i think that aspect will slowly grow less in the vintage community.

The upside for me is i can try out decks without the possible loss of rating. As i do this i see more people trying out this sort of thing. This is good as it is innovation. But you also get some very wacky tournaments and results with those tournaments.

One last thing, a good deck doesnt make a good player. A good deck doesnt make a good result. A good player with a good deck can make a good result.
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« Reply #34 on: July 15, 2005, 07:32:01 am »

The only thing i do not like about proxies is that the tournaments are not sanctioned. I do however acknowledge the need for proxies if vintage is to survive.

That's the thing... if Legacy becomes big, I for one know that  I'd love to improve my Eternal rating via Vintage as well as Legacy. Proxy tournaments will hardly become sanctioned, and reprints (not that I'd mind, and I am fully powered) are far less likely to happen. Unless the number of sanctioned tournaments rises a little more, I see a distinct possibility that Vintage will fall into second rank behind Legacy. A sanctioned Legacy event beats an unsanctioned Vintage event in terms of "importance" unless the prizes at the Vintage tourney are high enough to make it worthwhile.

However, proxies are the way to go to raise attention and attendance. I am all for the Proxy Tax, although I'd like to propose another slightly different idea: Use a list of cards that may be proxied for free (i.e. cards above a certain price), and charge 1$/ 1€ for every proxy of a card not on the list, with a total proxy limit of maybe 20?

I know this forces the players who are powered to pay for proxies of random uncommons, but I can easily live with this, since this keeps the collectabilty aspect of the game but eases the burden on the really expensive cards. To those who say, "why should we pay for proxies if we already paid for power", I can only reply: Sorry, man, that's why it is a collectible card game. Except for those hard to find cards, I believe proxies should not be necessary at all and card access has always been and should always be a part of this game and the tournaments. Only if the cards just are far too expensive should a player be allowed to proxy for free.

For me, the above idea is already a compromise (but one I am willing to make): If I had to choose, I'd say 1$-proxies for cards above a certain prize, and no proxies beyond that. Attendance numbers wouldn't like that, though, since that effectively makes entry fee for unpowered players far higher --  a contra-productive (is that even a word?) thing. So I am for a free list and Tax beyond that.

Whatever the best version is, I think that even the 5+Tax system needs a total proxy limit. Even if it cost 55$, some players will probably proxy everything. If you can reliably make T8 with such a deck at a Power tournament, your winnings might be higher than your costs. But who really wants to see an all-proxy deck? It makes a mockery of the game we like. At the very least, proxies should always be less than 50% of a deck (though I'd far prefer less than one-third of a deck).

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« Reply #35 on: July 15, 2005, 09:29:17 am »

One last thing, a good deck doesnt make a good player. A good deck doesnt make a good result. A good player with a good deck can make a good result.

I think this statement hits the nail on the head. This further justifies why more proxies are needed for the Vintage format, because there are lots of good players with no power. There are lots of really great players in Type II, that just do not have the funds to get into the Vintage community. I do think there should be a limit of 10-15 and possibly a "tax" for each one after 10.

Now, I know there are lots of people with power that are going to argue that it's not fair, because they paid a boatload of cash for their power 9.
At the same time, there are a few vintage players around who actually pulled their power from boosters way back when Magic was born, and they don't want their cards to devalue.

I can sympathize with both of you, even though I don't have power. Wizards could make everyone happy by putting out new versions of the cards or printing new cards with different names that do the same thing (For instance: Cloak of Feathers and Leap) but can't be used in conjunction with the original p9. I know this WON'T EVER happen....

example:

Card Name: Fire Ruby (too early to think of good name)

Cost: 0

Ability: Tap: Add 1 Red Mana to your mana pool.

 If Mox Ruby comes under your control, destroy Fire Ruby
OR
Fire Ruby cannot be in the same deck or sideboard as Mox Ruby

If Wizards did make these "new" cards, there would be a MAD frenzy.

Key point #1: Wizards would make a boatload of money. Players would buy boosters like crazy to get the key cards. New players and veterans would benefit. Wouldn't it be nice for vintage players to keep their original moxes in pristine condition in a binder, and play with these new, lesser-valued cards?

Key point #2: The "new" cards would SKYROCKET in price, so new players would still have to "pay their dues," which would help even out the fairness issues. I truly believe that these cards would be selling for $50-$100 a piece on Ebay before the boosters were ever released, which is still better than paying $300+ for a mox. However, unpowered players would actually have a chance to get a power card in a booster, but they probably won't pull them all.

Key point #3: I cannot see prices of the original p9 decreasing, because there is only a limited amount of cards in circulation. Even fewer are p9s in MINT condition, as these are cards that most people PLAY not COLLECT.

Key point #4: More accessibility to the format would equal more competition. As I stated earlier, there are lots of good players out there with unpowered decks. By bringing their tech and skills into the format, I believe we would see more competitive tournaments and new, creative decks. Not that Vintage is dying or anything, but it would be refreshing to see some new faces in the Vintage community that can bring something to the table for everyone.

Everybody wins.

Since this will never happen, however, proxies are essential. Ten is a good place to START, but even that seems too few. Some of the Workshop decks that I've seen run all the p9, plus 4 workshops, and 4 drains. That's 17 cards that each have a value over $100. Over the last 5 years, we have seen an incredible increase in value of these cards and others, which will only continue to increase in the future. I am having a hard enough time trying to get a playset of each dual land, when I can only buy 1 or 2 at a time.
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« Reply #36 on: July 15, 2005, 10:05:10 am »

Twault,

You make a few assumptions that in my oppinion are flawed.

First of all you say good type 2 players going to vintage do not have the funds. In my oppinion type 2 costs more than type 1 as it keeps on costing while vintage costs you once. Next to that i think those type 2 players would be the perfect net.deckers and i do not think that this means they will do any good in the format. Good vintage player isnt a good type 2 player but the opposite is true as well.

Reprints will never happen, you said that, reprints in other wordings will never happen. When they reprint they would become type 2 legal and are banned on the spot. WoTC will never do that as their policy is to restrict as few cards as possible. So printing cards that would be restricted on the spot will never happen.

Allowing proxies will not diminish the prizes of cards. People have a habit of wanting to have the cards they play with as it is just annoying to look at a plains and play an ancestral. For that reason allowing proxies will only rocket prises even further.

I have power, i am not worried that the value will go down. I am pro proxy. But not unlimited. As said before it will diminish play fun if on most tables there are many basic lands stating mox this or mox that and on top of the graveyard a plains that says mana drain. It looks like nothing. For that reason people will keep looking for that piece of power they still are missing or wanting.

Leaving a limit to proxies people will actually have to think how to build a deck instead of just net.deck a deck. 10 is my limit.
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« Reply #37 on: July 16, 2005, 06:06:02 am »

I think that 5-10 proxies is fair.  Just like any other format in magic you have to make some sort of commitment to intially venture into it.  With the proxy system, be it Blue duals, FoW and fectlands.  It is not as if I am advocating that ppl go out and purchase power and drains.  If more proxies are needed place a tax on them, $2 for each proxy beyond 10, I will give props for the guy who proxies his whole deck @ 100 extra cost.
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« Reply #38 on: July 16, 2005, 07:48:27 pm »

Five free proxies. $1 each beyond five. No limit.

The knee-jerk reaction to this structure is usually "OH NOES!! I HAVE TO PAY MORE MUNNAY!!1!" or "OH NOES!! A LEVEL PLAYING FIELD!!1!". To this, I shall repeat what I said to Mark Billings' friend at GenCon last year when he crumpled up my TMDC3 flyer whilst parroting those exact sentiments: get the fuck out of here before I stab you with this fork.

Not only does this provide people with access to any card and deck they couldn't otherwise afford or find, but it also rewards those players who have actually spent the money to make a commitment to the format and it PROVIDES A BUFFER FOR TOURNAMENT ORGANIZERS in the event that attendance is low or provides more prizes if attendance is high. Furthermore, it provides the greatest amount of freedom for people to play whatever deck they want, while simultaneously keeping the event from becoming an illegible scribblefest.

This thread is really starting to piss me off. All you people seem to be forgetting that without a tournament organizer, you wouldn't have a tournament to complain about not having enough proxies for in the first place. Proxies are not a right, they're a priveledge and if you think a $1/proxy fee beyond the first five is unreasonable, ask the guy who just dropped $700 on a Lotus to feel your pain. If you do the math, you'd have to pay the tax at WELL OVER 100 TOURNAMENTS at that rate to come even remotely close to what people who have committed to real cards have paid. At the rate of 5 major tournaments per year, that's over 5 years of proxying before you feel any sort of sting in your wallet.

Now before people cry bloody murder and start calling me an "elitist", understand that I am no longer fully powered myself, so this structure affects me as well. My statements and approach, however, are in the best interest of the community. Few people understand that there is a symbiotic relationship among players, organizers and dealers and the moment that anybody in that relationship starts to suffer, the whole damn thing comes crashing down. In a perfect world, everybody would GLADLY pay a buck for each and every proxy they used, without any freebies, simply to support the event, the organizer and THE FORMAT instead of whining that they don't get to play with more free Moxes. I'm actually ashamed of everyone who didn't vote in favor of the proxy tax.

This also puts a burden on the organizers to grow sack and price their tournament entries competitively whilst guaranteeing prizes (any T.O. who doesn't do this doesn't deserve to have the players' support in my book).

Players should also put some effort into their proxies. If you use the same proxies from tournament to tournament (and if you don't, you should start), then make the damn things distinguishable. The best way to do this is to take a pen eraser (the WHITE kind...takes the ink right off) and ERASE the art, text box and all information on the card that differs from the card that the proxy is representing.
For example: if you're proxying a Mox, take an artifact land from Mirrodin and erase the art, the flavor text, the "land" part of the card type and the name. Then draw a little picture or something on it where the art once was with pen and write in "Mox Sapphire" or whatever in the card name area. I recommend using Mirrodin artifact lands because they have the most card information in common with moxes and the card borders indicate which color of mana they produce, making them even more distinguishable.

This works especially well with cards that have the new face because the card layout is designed to accomodate black lettering, whereas older cards had different colored lettering for the name and other things. If anybody has ever seen my proxies, they'll understand what I'm talking about; nobody mistakes those things for anything else.


In summary, people who have made the commitment to the format should get special treatment, players should stop being lazy self-serving bastards and organizers should conform to uniform tournament procedures.
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« Reply #39 on: July 18, 2005, 04:02:26 am »

Just an idea. Maybe SCG could start "printing" official proxies. Something like getting a Basic Plains card and then actually using a printer to make proxies that are actually legible and recognizable. Probably violates some copyright law though. Sad
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« Reply #40 on: July 18, 2005, 05:01:44 am »

how about a wacky idea...

REPRINT THEM!!!

Wizards would like it since they are not getting any new money off the ones they have already printed.  People would still want the have the beta ones to pimp out their decks.  Their collector value would still be there but reprints would enable the masses to have access to cards that are dwindling. 

I guess the question comes to this, do the elitists who own power cards want to continue their monopoly of power as the number of type 1 players dies down, or do we make power accessable to everyone so that there will be an influx of new players and more competition.  With out new players and a growing following magic will die. 

This sounds like a nike commercial but what's more important, the game, or the value of your cards?  cuz without a following or interest in the game, the value of those cards are gonna go to shit anyway.

my 2.3 cents worth

wow. thats a terrible idea. i actually wouldnt mind them re-printing them as "ultra-rares" as long they didnt print more than 1,000-2,000 of each card, and then retire them for life afterwards. this would add more cards to availiable pool and also draw a lot of new players into the vintage game. wizards would sell so many boxes if they thru these in to cases. like maybe 1 chase reprint in a every 10 cases.

for the record, i prefer 5 free proxies, $1 thereafter...

also, what about a BONUS for players who play with no proxies? do players who have invested in the format deserve a little something? it makes the game easier when playing with no proxies. also, its less paperwork and easier for TOs not having to keep track of proxies. maybe a random door prize given to someone from the pool of players with all-real decks. or maybe a few bucks off entry? just an idea...lemme know if it holds water.
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« Reply #41 on: July 18, 2005, 05:37:59 am »

what about allowing collectors edition as long as the sleeves have a dark back?  This wouldnt break any contracts, it would up the price of collectors edition (making more money for dealers), and we could keep the proxie limit at 10. 

I personally have been talking about this for a while and almost everyone I talk to think its a good idea.  Moxen are like 50 bucks right now for collectors edition.  THey would probably go up to 100 or so but it would be worth it.

Also another point about collectors editon is if Wizards okay it then all of these tourneys could be sanctioned which would mean bigger prizes.  I personally feel it would benefit all.
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« Reply #42 on: July 18, 2005, 11:22:47 am »

I can see big stores printing their own proxies and then decreeing that they will accept only Official Starcitygames Proxies or something. That would solve the "illegible basic land" problem. The only catch is that it might be copyright infringement, but I'm sure they're ways around this (SCG did make their own tokens, I know).
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« Reply #43 on: July 18, 2005, 01:19:24 pm »

And since when is the number of type 1 players dying down?  Last time I checked, tournaments are getting larger and more frequent.

Maybe tournaments can grow, but that growth is limited by the number of P9, drains, etc. printed, which is small  Smile. In the long run, the number of players in the format will stagnate or even decline (without a suitable solution that puts players on equal grounds). Anyway, this discussion belongs to Smemmen's thread, not here.

I voted for 5-10 proxies + 1$ each additionnal proxy. Unlimited proxies don't really reward players who own power and could cause problems when a player has to read 40 ugly proxies. The "at most X proxies" solution might block certain archetypes to some players, so it is not that good. The "only cards above a certain amount"  solution has its problems too, since it blocks people who own power from proxying random cards that might not be available at the event.   
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« Reply #44 on: July 18, 2005, 08:03:29 pm »

Ten proxy tournaments are just fine.  Allowing for additional proxies via Proxy Tax is even better.

Those who need to use 13 proxies kick in an extra 3 bucks.  Repeat that story a few more times and the prize structure will only improve. With better prize structures comes more players and enthusiasm for the game as a whole. 

For example, out here, our tournies are only about 30 something people. 

If more people could assemble a competetive proxy deck (with the help of say, 5 extra dollars) then the format/local meta will grow. 

Everyone wins.

Klown has a point: Make your proxies look special and clear.
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« Reply #45 on: July 19, 2005, 12:00:44 pm »

The only real issue with the "Proxy Tax" is that Power events already tend to have a VERY high (PTQ level) entry fee (25-30+).  If you need a lot of proxies then that's gonna cost you a bit.  Yes, I know, many of us have already put in the time and money investment to have all of the special pretty cards everyone else is going to have to pay for to use at the event, but be real, those players -will not- view it as fair at all.  It's an important thing to take into consideration.
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« Reply #46 on: July 19, 2005, 04:46:34 pm »

The only real issue with the "Proxy Tax" is that Power events already tend to have a VERY high (PTQ level) entry fee (25-30+).  If you need a lot of proxies then that's gonna cost you a bit.  Yes, I know, many of us have already put in the time and money investment to have all of the special pretty cards everyone else is going to have to pay for to use at the event, but be real, those players -will not- view it as fair at all.  It's an important thing to take into consideration.

Which players won't view it as fair?

The people using proxies?
Personally, I'd rather spend a buck to rent a Lotus for a day than spend $600-$800 to not have to spend a buck. The only reason why I don't is because I like the option of playing the deck I want in sanctioned tournaments (ie: GenCon). Just to let everyone know: if you think it's unfair that you be charged $5 in addition to your tournament entry to play with a Lotus, Walk, Ancestral and 2 Drains that you don't own (thereby saving you well over a thousand dollars), please PM me. I will gladly give you a vasectomy with some fishing line so you will not pollute the gene pool.

The people who own the real cards?
More participants = more prizes, if the T.O. doesn't get completely screwed from lack of attendance. Bigger turnouts means you get to play with your pretty cards more. The pigheaded folk who just want to lord over the unpowered people are in the minority and frankly, if the only way they can win is through a financial advantage, they should find another game. Like paying bums to smite their enemies.



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« Reply #47 on: July 19, 2005, 08:01:05 pm »

The only real issue with the "Proxy Tax" is that Power events already tend to have a VERY high (PTQ level) entry fee (25-30+).  If you need a lot of proxies then that's gonna cost you a bit.  Yes, I know, many of us have already put in the time and money investment to have all of the special pretty cards everyone else is going to have to pay for to use at the event, but be real, those players -will not- view it as fair at all.  It's an important thing to take into consideration.

Which players won't view it as fair?

The people using proxies?
Personally, I'd rather spend a buck to rent a Lotus for a day than spend $600-$800 to not have to spend a buck. The only reason why I don't is because I like the option of playing the deck I want in sanctioned tournaments (ie: GenCon). Just to let everyone know: if you think it's unfair that you be charged $5 in addition to your tournament entry to play with a Lotus, Walk, Ancestral and 2 Drains that you don't own (thereby saving you well over a thousand dollars), please PM me. I will gladly give you a vasectomy with some fishing line so you will not pollute the gene pool.

The people who own the real cards?
More participants = more prizes, if the T.O. doesn't get completely screwed from lack of attendance. Bigger turnouts means you get to play with your pretty cards more. The pigheaded folk who just want to lord over the unpowered people are in the minority and frankly, if the only way they can win is through a financial advantage, they should find another game. Like paying bums to smite their enemies.
Don't get me wrong, any reasonable person would have no problem with this, but keep in mind that we're dealing with Magic players here, and generally ones that haven't been part of the Vintage community for long, so who knows how they'll react.
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« Reply #48 on: July 20, 2005, 04:55:04 am »

on a proxy-related note, i just got my gamingetc P9 proxies in the mail today and they are sweet. theyre cheap as hell and the foils turned out nicer than regular magic foils. theyre only $10 for a full set plus 1x random foil. i think cards like this should be made legal as proxies; theyre sooo much nicer to look at than basic lands. theres never any question as to what that card is youre looking at.
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« Reply #49 on: July 26, 2005, 04:29:30 pm »

  And since when is the number of type 1 players dying down?  Last time I checked, tournaments are getting larger and more frequent.


This is not a valid argument. Although I can't actually prove it (yet you won't be able to prove otherwhise) my gut feeling says Vintage would have been even bigger, more diverse and more fun if more proxies would've been allowed in the past. Collector or nostalgia type of guys leaving the game because of this? Good riddance. If they were just in it for the nostalgia or investment value of the cards, they've probably not got anything to contribute to the community. Or at least not as much as (newer) players that are actually into the format because of the game itself. (and the strategy and thinking involved)
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« Reply #50 on: July 26, 2005, 07:02:14 pm »

Alot of stuff that was very very right

I agree with everything you said.  I vote you for offical voice of vintage!  I especially like the parts where you threaten people with violence.  You own. 

Anyway with the topic I am for 5-10 proxies with the "tax" however I don't want people proxying Tinder Walls and stuff I wish there was a list of cards that you can proxy up (expensive and rare cards only) and that would make it alot easier to deal with.  Most people know what Black Lotus does but most people don't know Wood Elemental does (not like it matters) so I think people complain a bit too much about the "mox on a plains" approach to proxy making.  Thats why I have made my own Aqua Teen Hunger Force Proxies! 
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« Reply #51 on: July 28, 2005, 09:00:32 am »

We ran a something similar to the tax system in Minnesota, it worked fine.  I think realistically that the correct number of proxies is 75, but anythiing i sbetter than nothing.  I won 6 of 9, but it never bothered me to play against a proxied workshop or lotus.  I wish someone owuld run an unlimited proxy tourney and count get sylvan to count the proxy numbers, i bet it would turn out to be only 15-20 cards and naturally come to some number, I'm guessing here, around 10 in a deck.  Proxies help more people play, anything that does that needs to be supported.
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« Reply #52 on: July 28, 2005, 09:19:34 am »

I play with friends in an unlimited proxy environment, but I think this would be the wrong approach for major public tournaments because it doesn't require players to support WotC in any way. They are the makers of the game and should be compensated in major events like SCGP9 by the purchasing of cards used in the event. Because of this, I have always believed the best solution is players should be able to proxy anything that is rotated out of Extended. If the cards are Extended legal than you got to buy the real thing. This way everyone can afford to build any deck they want and the availability of cards shouldn't be a problem. WotC is getting revenue from the popularity of Type 1, even if it is some type of secondary revenue through the sales of cards as singles through local shop owners. This policy would also make it is easier for the players of other formats to drift into Type 1. I just can't figure out why no one wants to adopt a policy like this. It is self rotating which will always keep the game affordable, it allows WotC to make some profit, it could even cause WotC to reprint some older cards as time passes just to make the Type 1 players buy a few new peices of cardboard every now and then. It is a win for the players of the game and a win for the makers of the game.
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« Reply #53 on: July 28, 2005, 10:17:00 am »

This also puts a burden on the organizers to grow sack and price their tournament entries competitively whilst guaranteeing prizes (any T.O. who doesn't do this doesn't deserve to have the players' support in my book).

This is probably the only point that I disagree with. Any T.O. that guarantees prize structure is an idiot, business-wise. I don't mean to sound like an ass here, but if I were to run a tournament and put up a Mox or piece of blue power for 1st, and drain/shop/bazaar for 2nd, and some other stuff for 3rd and 4th, I'm sure as HELL not guaranteeing it unless a certain number of paying players shows up. While making a guarantee on prize structure is noble (and I remember last year how much of a hit you had taken, so believe me I have the utmost respect for you) it's just not logical. Losing money == awful business. Who cares how many magic players you have kept super happy by guaranteeing prizes. If you can't keep your store open, or your family fed, then the fact that you've been giving away hundreds of dollars just reflects that you have your priorities out of whack.

Tournament players are really obnoxious when it comes to prize support and entry fees; thinking that they pump so much money into the store. None of them do the math to realize that even if the TO breaks even on the prize, they still have to justify keeping the store open, using electricity and manhours. Realistically, tournaments bring very little money in compared with actual game sales. Tournament players don't buy lots of packs, or even many other games. Usually, they'll show up with the deck they're gonna play, pay the entry fee, and flop cards until they either win the tournament or go x-2 drop. The real money comes from casual players, and people who aren't there for magic.

I guess the whole point of this hijack was to say that the belief that prizes should be guaranteed is arrogant, obnoxious and ill-thought out. Also, vote for paying a proxy tax, because kl0wn said so.

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« Reply #54 on: July 28, 2005, 05:33:14 pm »

Any T.O. that guarantees prize structure is an idiot, business-wise. I don't mean to sound like an ass here, but if I were to run a tournament and put up a Mox or piece of blue power for 1st, and drain/shop/bazaar for 2nd, and some other stuff for 3rd and 4th, I'm sure as HELL not guaranteeing it unless a certain number of paying players shows up. While making a guarantee on prize structure is noble (and I remember last year how much of a hit you had taken, so believe me I have the utmost respect for you) it's just not logical. Losing money == awful business. Who cares how many magic players you have kept super happy by guaranteeing prizes. If you can't keep your store open, or your family fed, then the fact that you've been giving away hundreds of dollars just reflects that you have your priorities out of whack.

I think you're missing the point here. By not guaranteeing prizes, players may be hesitant to commit a day to come play. If two tournaments are running on the same day, the one that guarantees prizes will draw a vastly greater amount of players. There was an attempted Library tournament this past January that ended up flopping because they guy putting up the Library was hesitant to guarantee it as a prize. As a result, people were hesitant to come out, and I ended up with a Mana Crypt and $12.50 instead. If this man attempts to organize another such tournament, I probably won't be in attendence.

Yes, guaranteeing prizes might end up wrecking you for a tournament or two. However, it will also help to set up a stable Vintage player base, as opposed to whoever has nothing better to do that day. In the long run, I think it is advantageous to any store that can afford some short term losses to guarantee its prize structure. These short term losses can be further mitigated by smart organization, including extensive advertising, avoiding conflicts with other tournaments or "the big game," and running small "practice" tournaments, FNM-style, to help people wet feet and whet appetites before the big day.
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« Reply #55 on: July 28, 2005, 06:37:24 pm »

Guarantee a smaller prize and upgrade it if enough people show up.
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« Reply #56 on: July 28, 2005, 07:55:40 pm »

I voted for ten proxies; I think it's fair and just.
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« Reply #57 on: July 29, 2005, 04:22:21 pm »

Guarantee a smaller prize and upgrade it if enough people show up.

EXACTLY. That was what I meant.

It's totally misleading for T.O.s to announce prize structures without guaranteeing them. With that logic, I could organize a tournament like this:

Quote
Insane Tournament
$10 Entry Fee
Each player in the Top 8 will receive a full set of Beta Power 9.
Ninth through sixteenth place will receive a full set of Unlimited Power 9.
Seventeenth through thirty-second place will receive a Black Lotus.

And then somewhere in really tiny fine print, you get this:

Quote
*prizes depend on attendance

Or you don't even get a guarantee or DoA disclosure anywhere.

So you make hotel reservations and hop a plane because the prize structure of this tournament is just absolutely ridiculous and you'd be a complete moron not to attend. Then when you get there, you find out that you're just playing for a first-place Mox Pearl.

And this:

Quote
While making a guarantee on prize structure is noble (and I remember last year how much of a hit you had taken, so believe me I have the utmost respect for you) it's just not logical.

is by no means any argument against T.O.s guaranteeing a prize structure. It's an argument against T.O.s being stupid (or at least unrealistic). I made a poor judgement call by guaranteeing such a huge prize structure justifying it with "if you run it, they will come". It was a dumb idea financially. I took the opportunity to man up and own my mistake, but it shouldn't be a reason for T.O.s to reserve the right to back out on prize structures that players have travelled long distances to play for.

If you have doubts about attendance, use a smaller prize structure. Don't expect the players to pay for your mistakes. Just be smart and don't make mistakes.
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« Reply #58 on: August 02, 2005, 02:04:07 pm »

10 proxies is great for people without any power/shop/drains, but it seems to anger the people with the cards.  I mean, I proxied flying men for my fish deck at chicago.
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« Reply #59 on: August 02, 2005, 02:38:43 pm »

I can see that people wanting to proxy a really expensive rare card to play vintage to be a good thing. People playing a deck and proxy up some common they didn't find or have at the time is just sheer laziness. To proxy a less than 10 dollar card because you do not have it spells to me: play something else or find the card and play with it. There is not 1 common so rare it is nowhere to be found.

A lot of cards to me are discutable of getting proxied. I think the line should be drawn with very rare and expensive cards. To me the 30-40 dollar mark could be the border on which a card is proxy material or not. All cards below that price should be well accessable and people should have to be doing some collecting to actually play a deck as i think that is part of the charm of this game.

For me it is: if i do not have a card i do not play with it. Sure, i have most cards but of the first couple of series i have most important cards, but not all of them, not nearly all of them. To me that is still the challenge, getting them all eventually. And not once, but 4 times so i can make every deck i want. And i understand this takes time, i understand this takes money and patience. But it is so much more rewarding when you play some legend card and you actually play it instead of a basic land saying Paladia Mors.

As said before, i am open for proxies, but i have some boundaries to work with that.
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