Saving T1......Help!!!!

[jcb193]

I know this topic has come up before, but in light of recent talk of bannings, and the newfound prominence of T1 voices, i think it could bear discussion again.  I think increasing deck size might eventually be the most non-damaging solution. 

Pros:
No cards have to be banned
The overall power of restricted cards decreases (handicapping critical mass- ie, moxes are now less powerful)
Players can adapt to this, even in a casual setting (remember, people have adapted to Paris mulliganing)
Overall power level of T1 diminishes
Buying two packs of 40 count sleeves now has a purpose!

Cons:
Have to justify why one format has 75 card decks
People need new deckboxes that hold 75 cards
Have to change the culture of Magic (60 card deck has been law for 10 years)

Undecided:
Will games now be more swingy, since the power cards will be less condensed in a deck, or will the overall format become watered down.

I thought it might be interesting to have some dialogue on this, as i think the banning of YWill will not accomplish what those in favor of it are trying to accomplish.

[Whatever Works]

Just because Smennen made an arguement that Yawgmoth's Will should get banned doesnt mean that type 1 needs to be saved. Did anyone make a complaint about the card before his post? NO... Does anyone seriously think its going to get banned... No...

Type 1 is the most balanced format in magic right now... Its always been broken, and right now its alot less broken then when GAT had 4 gush, or when Long.dec had LED. Fish is competitive, Combo is in check, and the sky isnt falling as much as some "people" want to make you believe.

@ Smennen - My comment was a bit out of line, sorry. I write stupid things sometimes (and in your opinion probably alot), but comment still uneeded.

[ctthespian]

Just because Smennen made an arguement that Yawgmoth's Will should get banned doesnt mean that type 1 needs to be saved. Did anyone make a complaint about the card before his post? NO... Does anyone seriously think its going to get banned... No... Do most people like Smennen... No...

ROFL...  That made my day.

So your saying that Smmenen is to magic what Chicken Little is to summer movies?

[jcb193]

Well i apologize....I am in the marketing business, so i think i am used to trying to get people's attention with dramatics.  I personally don't thinik T1 needs saving, though i do think that eventually something needs to be done....and when that day comes, i am curious as to what people think should be the correct course of action.

I do think T1 is in a great position right now.  However, critical mass will occur, and YWill is the card that takes advantage of that principle the most.

So, please reconsider my post "If critical mass does occur, which is the best path of correction to take."

Sorry for the false alarms.....and i was by no means advocating Smennen as the voice of vintage, merely stating that we are a much more listened to group than in years past. 

[forests failed you]

Yawgmoth's Will is not that big of a deal.  It has been around forever and it can be dealt with via many, many cards.  I think that 75 card decks is an awful idea because then the format becomes much more about who draws better cards, and more restricted cards.  Not to mention in a format with as many broken plays as Vintage it also lowers the probability that a player will be able to have Force of Will in their opening hand to combat turn 1 brokeness. 

The format is fine.

[Demonic Attorney]

I can't possibly overstate the need for people to shut the hell up and learn to play the game more effectively.  Doing so would resolve 95% of people's complaints about the format.

[Komatteru]

I think that 75 card decks is an awful idea because then the format becomes much more about who draws better cards, and more restricted cards.  Not to mention in a format with as many broken plays as Vintage it also lowers the probability that a player will be able to have Force of Will in their opening hand to combat turn 1 brokeness. 

This is correct.  I agree wholeheartedly.

[dandan]

If it is broke, don't fix it. - slogan for Vintage

(modified version of popular phrase - don't hassle me over the grammar)

I thought that was a general consensus that cards have to meet strict criteria for restriction. I think there is almost certainly the same consensus that we need even stricter criteria for banning. It is crystal clear that it is very very difficult to get cards unbanned or unrestricted so we need to be very sure before taking such action.

Smmenen has every right to discuss a banning, just as I have every right to disagree with him. I will try to avoid making personal remarks especially about someone who has been the standard bearer of Vintage since Oscar Tan got a life. I believe that a well thought out discussion about Will will actually help show Wizards that no bannings are needed or even wanted by their most loyal customers, the players of Vintage. Seeing as they already have this opinion and have stated this opinion, they are almost certainly very willing to accept clear reasons for not banning anything (most people find it easier to agree with what they already believe).

Critical mass is a bit of a red herring. Most of the advances in Vinatge over the last 2 years have been because of far more efficient and thorough design and testing of decks thanks in large part to teams like Meandeck and those who seek to topple them. The addition of more cards that do the same things brings small incremental percentage improvent in deck efficiency (as for example you look at Grim Tutor over Death Wish or Spoils over Consultation etc) but completely new cards like cards that give you card advantage AND put cards in your graveyard or 11/11 indestructibles open up more efficient strategies which can give quantum leap improvements in deck efficiency. The incremental changes can easily be undone by metagame shifts whereas the quantum leap changes cause metagame shifts. So better development (Tog/Intuition anyone?) and new cards are far more responsible for the current crop of tier one decks that poor old 'critical mass'.

In any case, is the current state of Vintage so unhealthy it must be changed? It actually looks as diverse, balanced (meaning unbalanced but relatively equally - think Balance) and exciting as ever and its popularity has continued to grow.

[LotusHead]

, i think it could bear discussion again.  I think increasing deck size might eventually be Pros:

Don't take this the wrong way, but a bunch of whiners (read Casual type Vintage folks who go to tournies on occasion) whined about Trinisphere, when lots of the Vintage community realized that it kinda sucks if your opponent goes way broken on you, but that is T1.

Forcing 75 card decks is like, not even a consideration any more than implementing a "3 of each card" rule or "5 of each card rule". It makes no sense whatsoever.

There is a format where 75 card decks are "balanced" and that is the "Magic with your buddies on the kitchen table" format.

As it is now, anyone has a shot, if they play hard, build (or netdeck) hard, metagame hard and sometimes get hella lucky.

Since when in the last 2 years (the period that I have been really involved in the tourney scene) has T1 ever needed saving? Long.dec has been mention (f-that deck), Trinisphere.dec also.  What now? 60 cards is fine, 75 cards is crazy arbitrary make stuff up as we go along kinda suggestions.

Don't take this as a flame, I just have a problem with "75 cards will fix what ain't broke" (sorry DanDan), I just need to REALLY know what the Problem is before wanting any real change to take place, or even discussion of said solutions untill the problem is identified.

[Bram]

Did anyone make a complaint about the card before his post? NO... Does anyone seriously think its going to get banned... No... Do most people like Smennen... No...

All of these are nonsense.

While I would like to say that I am not in favor of Will getting the axe, this issue has come up before. Many have complained about it and reasoned that it needs to be restricted a long time before Smmenen's article. As for people seriously thinking it's going to get banned: I know a certain level 4 judge that was pretty sure it would get booted some time ago, and it doesn't get much closer to the source than that. So yeah, there's people who seriously think it will. And your last comment is just plain insulting and untrue.

Also, I smiled when I saw the results of this poll

[dandan]

, i think it could bear discussion again.  I think increasing deck size might eventually be Pros:

Don't take this as a flame, I just have a problem with "75 cards will fix what ain't broke" (sorry DanDan), I just need to REALLY know what the Problem is before wanting any real change to take place, or even discussion of said solutions untill the problem is identified.

I won't take any amendment to the quote I amended as a flame, more as a tribute to the power I have over the Vintage community.

Going back to the suggestion by JCB193 I think you missed his context. 'If Vintage needs changes there are other options other than bannings' is how I would interprete his post, which IMHO as a 'Casual type Vintage folk' who goes to tournies on occasion (although I didn't whinge about Trinisphere - which after all makes Will function more like Won't) makes a whole lot of sense.

[racetraitor]

I agree with Bram totally. The issue of bannings is one that has come up from time to time over the last years, and more frequently so as the format has progressed from casual towards competitive. Not surprisingly, Yawgmoth's Will is the card that's always brought up because of the distortion it causes even when restriced to one copy per deck. Remember that the DCI stance on bannings is not written in stone, cards like Channel and Mind Twist spent time on the banned list for power issues before and although the current catchphrase is "Vintage is the format that let's you play all of your cards" it's not unrealistic that Will could/should end up on it as well.

Regardless, flames on how one of the most influential people in the community "isn't liked by anyone" when he's contributed much more to the format than you have are more sad than funny (if that's how you intended them). Who gave you the authority to speak on behalf of the whole community and throw around opinions as if they were facts?

[jcb193]

Going back to the suggestion by JCB193 I think you missed his context. 'If Vintage needs changes there are other options other than bannings' is how I would interprete his post, which IMHO as a 'Casual type Vintage folk' who goes to tournies on occasion (although I didn't whinge about Trinisphere - which after all makes Will function more like Won't) makes a whole lot of sense.

Thank you for clarification Dandan, that was what i was trying to say.....and that is why this is in Basic Community, and not on Starcitygames front page or Open Forum.  This is a highly theoretical discussion that doesn't have any current need, trigger, or application.  Does that mean why can't talk about it anyway?

People on forums always have opinions about everything, and aren't afraid to share them.  I was wondering what people's opinions were about alternative solutions to the Banning of YWill.

Whether it is needed or not, is irrelevent. 

[off topic]  Some of us played back during the dark ages of Tolarian Academy....which in my opinion was the closest Vintage has ever been to needing to ban a card.  You either played Hate Academy or Academy....or you lost.  To me, YWill is nowhere near that threshold.   

[dandan]

The Tolarian Academy question is, oddly enough, more relevant than YawgWill as several cards, some of which were weak, were restricted as opposed to banning one card. With Will, if we were to hobble it by restrictions, the two leading candidates - Dark Ritual and Gifts Ungiven, both 'deserve' to be considered for restriction in their own right. It is far easier to justifying Gifts than it is restricting Voltaic Key!!!!!

Alternative solutions to a problem we IMHO do not currently face.
1. Larger deck sizes
75 cards is another random number but how about more precision with PLUS cards. A Restricted PLUS card can be put in a deck but each PLUS card adds 1 to the maximum deck size. Power 9? 69? 69 is a sweet thing. The big plus here is that we can have unrestricted PLUS cards that you can run 4 of. Deck lists have 60 spaces plus a PLUS box.

2. Player going second can sideboard instead of drawing (obvious scouting would be a huge problem) but one of the problems we face IF the format is unbalanced and the fundamental turn continues to get go down, it that the player who goes first has a huge advantage. In a format where everyone won on turn 1, going first would be good!

3. Ante
You wanted alternative, I give you the original patented Richard Garfield solution. Note that the format would be VERY friendly to new players. The bad interaction with proxies is the main problem with this solution plus I have heard that some US states have weird rules about gambling.

4. Restricted by Group
Both Will and Lotus are Restricted but you can only choose one of them. By making up the groups (say choose up to 2 from Will/Lotus/Moxen) you can be fairly clever about what decks can have what.
Note that there could be unrestricted groups too so if Wizards printed Dark Ritual again but in Red you might put both in a group so you can't run 8 rituals.

5. Marked cards
Marked cards have to be played in differently coloured sleeves. I might not know which ones an opponent is playing but it sure makes it easier to Duress! I'm fairly sure this would be an advantage to an opponent as the marked cards in the deck as visible to both players but the opponent gets the huge advantage of knowing if you have any in hand (something you already know). Imagine if only Will were classified as a Marked Card. As an alternative, you have to show any Marked Cards you draw, if you don't you can't cast them. FoW wouldn't be a Marked Card!!

6. Accept Vintage as it is - perhaps even a broken format can be loved and there is always Legacy!

7. Print new cards (Wizards already do this) some of which may cause existing strategies to become weaker. It is possible for Wizards to print cards that are stronger in Vintage than in Standard and they appear to be doing this. After all, power creep works both ways - better threats and better solutions

[kl0wn]

I agree with Bram totally. The issue of bannings is one that has come up from time to time over the last years, and more frequently so as the format has progressed from casual towards competitive. Not surprisingly, Yawgmoth's Will is the card that's always brought up because of the distortion it causes even when restriced to one copy per deck. Remember that the DCI stance on bannings is not written in stone, cards like Channel and Mind Twist spent time on the banned list for power issues before and although the current catchphrase is "Vintage is the format that let's you play all of your cards" it's not unrealistic that Will could/should end up on it as well.

Regardless, flames on how one of the most influential people in the community "isn't liked by anyone" when he's contributed much more to the format than you have are more sad than funny (if that's how you intended them). Who gave you the authority to speak on behalf of the whole community and throw around opinions as if they were facts?

Firstly:

Do most people like Smennen... No...

Is not equivalent to saying Smemmen "isn't liked by anyone"; most=/=all. Other people have also suggested that he drinks from the hollowed-out skull of a once adorable puppy (Dr. Sylvan, I believe it was), why don't you go twist your panties up your crack and climb all over him as well. IT WAS A JOKE! There wasn't any speaking on behalf of anyone, I'm sure WW wants some of Smemmen's fumunda just as much as you do.

Now as far as your "cards have been banned for power reasons before" argument goes, that was like a million years ago; it's not applicable today. Back when Channel and Mind Twist were banned, all we had to combat them were the expansions leading up to Ice Age. Things have changed since then.

Personally, I think in order to "save" the format, WoTC should just unrestrict Balance. And errata it to be an instant.

[CMass]

I notice that the more popular Type I gets, the more it needs saving.  Interesting correlation.

[jcb193]

I notice that the more popular Type I gets, the more it needs saving.  Interesting correlation.

While i am by no means saying T1 needs fixing, and i do think your quote is quite clever.....i also think that in all honesty, yes, the more popular the format, the more maintenance it requires.  When people were playing zoo-necro-control for 5 years and the format never evolved, it obviously never needed fixing/maintenance. 

[Smmenen]

... No... Do most people like Smennen... No...

Ok.... so why is that?

Becuase if that is the case, then there is no reason for me to be here.  Say that it is and you'll never see me on the drain again. 

It is irrational to be a part of a community in which I am disliked. 

[Revvik]

I notice that the more popular Type I gets, the more it needs saving.  Interesting correlation.

Because the newer players see themselves losing when the same card is played over and over again and think "now how did they fix that in the other format I played in?  Oh yeah, they banned a bunch of stuff.  Maybe it's a good idea to do that here, too."
Maybe I can reinforce your "Ban Will" argument - I once lost to an opponent who kept a hand with six land and a Yawgmoth's Will.  Is it because Will is blatantly overpowered and unbalancing?  No, it's because I suck.  Get better or get bent.  This discussion is old and just not getting anywhere.

Do most people like Smennen... No...

That seems pretty childish.  Having never met the man, I can't say one way or the other, and I'm not going to until I do - but I'm not going to fucking judge him because I may or may not disagree with his views, or read a post or two of his as "too glib for my tastes."  By the  way, this is still a card game, guys (and one or two girls).

EDIT:

Also, I smiled when I saw the results of this poll 

[Dante]

... No... Do most people like Smennen... No...

Ok.... so why is that?

Becuase if that is the case, then there is no reason for me to be here.  Say that it is and you'll never see me on the drain again. 

It is irrational to be a part of a community in which I am disliked. 

Steve, just ignore the ass-monkeys which seem to have flown in from the set of "Wicked"....

PS Wicked is an excellent musical.  http://www.wickedthemusical.com/  If it comes by, I highly recommend seeing it.

[xthexpunisherx]

Well i apologize....I am in the marketing business, so i think i am used to trying to get people's attention with dramatics. 

This is the problem with everything... Not just magic, marketing has to make things so much bigger than they really are.  OMFG THE WORLD IS FALLING BUY THIS YOU NEED IT BLAH BLAH BLAH. 

On a related topic.  If you don't like the format there are OTHER formats which is fine for you to play.  I'm not saying "get out" but its an option if you don't like the current state of vintage try out another format and if you don't like that come back.  I know the cards are expensive but its supposed to be a game for fun so do what you have to to have fun.

At Smmenen:

I don't know you, I haven't met you, I've read the stuff you do on this page.  Honestly the only beef I have with you is the constant posting of your resume' on this webpage.  Every other argument you bring up is "blah blah blah" I did this I created that I masted this.  Yeah thats awesome bro we all get that and if someone is new they will learn that in time.  However, you don't need to say it in every post about everything.  Oh and fuck what everyone else says! Do what you want to do and not what people tell you to do.  Life is too short to take people's shit.

[Bram]

The next person who elaborates on the topic of liking or disliking Smmenen will be either warned or banned, depending on if I like or dislike them.

If you don't like someone, send them a PM or rant on about it on IRC or something. Stay on topic please.

- Bram

[Guardian]

Not taking into account random brokenness:

1) If your game plan go wrong, it means you slipped. You deserved to lose.

2) If you dominate a game and opponent wins because of topdecked Will, you didn't dominate every aspect. Return to point 1.

3) If the opponent wins because he topdecked ANY strong card under a particuliar situation, return to point 1.

So the game don't need any saving. Just get better. I used to bitch about the supposed unbalance. Now, T1 is so much more tactical, so become a better player if you hope to win. The only unbalance I see in T1 is the strength of blue. This is not a new thing and people always managed to play through this.

Get better!

[Vegeta2711]

I can't possibly overstate the need for people to shut the hell up and learn to play the game more effectively.  Doing so would resolve 95% of people's complaints about the format.

I can't stress this enough. I really can't.

[jcb193]

Yawn.......

Does anybody even read threads anymore before chiming in......This thread is theoretical, is in the Basic Community (seeking discussion, not persuasion or argument), and merely talks about the different ways that one would go about fixing T1, IF IT NEEDED IT.

This thread is none of the following:

1.) Discussion about whether you like Smennen or not.
2.) A call for the Banning of __________.
3.) Trying to figure out if T1 is healthy or not.

[Guardian]

Why trying figuring out how to fix something that's not broken? With no problem, it's quite hard to find solutions to fix said problem.

[mongrel12]

To be honest, this whole issue has gotten out of hand, mainly because most of the community has not read the banning article and is just spouting off random nonsense without being able to a) stay on topic b) react to smemmens arguments. That said, the format is at (or close to) the best it's ever been in terms of balance and diversity. The question people should really be asking is not "how can i improve t1 trhough a, b, c," but "how can i become a better player in the most skill intensive constructive format ever."

[dandan]

Yawn.......
Does anybody even read threads anymore before chiming in......This thread is theoretical, is in the Basic Community (seeking discussion, not persuasion or argument), and merely talks about the different ways that one would go about fixing T1, IF IT NEEDED IT.
This thread is none of the following:

1.) Discussion about whether you like Smennen or not.
2.) A call for the Banning of __________.
3.) Trying to figure out if T1 is healthy or not.

Console yourself with the fact that I understand what the topic is about and have attempted to contribute. To be fair your opening post is a major cause of much of the misunderstanding. I would strongly suggest a major editing of your first post - replacing most of it with your second post and reposting it a second time here on page 2 so newer readers actually see it. Because of Smennen's article, you are gettting collateral damage here. You could also give up on this thread, as a mod to close it and cut and paste any relevant comments into a new thread with a far clearer heading and opening paragraph so people understand that we are not discussing if Vintage needs saving at all.

[Smmenen]

The next person who elaborates on the topic of liking or disliking Smmenen will be either warned or banned, depending on if I like or dislike them.

If you don't like someone, send them a PM or rant on about it on IRC or something. Stay on topic please.

- Bram

*sigh*  I think Bram missed my point....

I'm honestly surprised at how much people think Balance is so good.  Probably the deck in the format best able to abuse Balance right now would be 5c stax variants - but even then, I'm not so sure that unrestricted balance or mind twist would be 1/4th as bad as people think although maybe 1/5th.  Balance has alot of flaws that weren't apparent when it was "so good." We played the balance deck in my tourament of banned decks last year and it was fucking wretched.   One problem with balance is that decks are much more efficient and much faster then they were in the past.  Brainstorm can pretty much undo a balance by helping you recover faster becuase your opponent puts resources into the balance to try and maximize it.  I don't think that 4 Balance.dec would honestly be worse than Trinipshere.  Which isn't saying much, but it's saying something. 

[dandan]

... No... Do most people like Smennen... No...

Ok.... so why is that?
Becuase if that is the case, then there is no reason for me to be here.  Say that it is and you'll never see me on the drain again. 
It is irrational to be a part of a community in which I am disliked. 

Judging by your icon, I'd say that you would gladly sacrifice being liked in order to achieve total dominance over all before you.
In any case your contribution to the community is respected and appreciated, at the very least in this dark corner of Slovakia.