A Small Question about Monoblue Control

[DeMarki]

It's a small question about MUC's winning conditions:

I run 4 Ophidians, 1 Morphling and 1 Darksteel Colossus, Are these enough for a decent win or should I add something more, like another Morphling for example...? 

[neenjafus]

you can add platinum angel as another tinker target, I don't know if morphling is really worth it anymore

[And11]

Phids and Colossus are all you really need. I play 2x Shackles though, and I dunno if you do or even consider them winconditions.

[prosbloom225]

Don't forget about everyones favorite creature killer, Masticore.  Oh, and powder keg.

[DeMarki]

you can add platinum angel as another tinker target, I don't know if morphling is really worth it anymore

I'm not sure if that was a joke or if your seriously mean that! Morphling will always be a great creature, in fact I don't know if running just one is enough, cause I think that most of the people run 2 in MUC.

Don't forget about everyones favorite creature killer, Masticore.  Oh, and powder keg.

Masticore is a great SB choice, I don't run them main anymore. Of course I run Powder Kegs as well as Chalices  :lol:

How many Back to Basics should I run main? Are 2 enough or should I run a 3rd one??? (There are some monocolored decks around lately)

[coop]

The only reason to run morphling would be as a moat effect against decks like fish if that matchup is causing you problems.  I would just run the DC which should be more than enough, because your not going to want to win until your in complete control of the game most of the time, although the random tinker for DC is always good because you have phids as a back up win condition.  I would stay away from platinum angel because most decks will have a way to remove it, and good combo will easily win through it.
I think 2 back to basics  in the maindeck seems about right, although if your running intution or your meta calls for it a 3rd would be alright. 

[DeMarki]

I think 2 back to basics  in the maindeck seems about right, although if your running intution or your meta calls for it a 3rd would be alright.

I'm not sure about that, why is it that everybody that plays MUC runs 3-4 Back to Basics? I've never seen only 2 played main and I think that the main reason is that you just want to lock your opponent's mana base as soon as possible.
But the real problem to me comes when your opponent plays monocolored decks.

[coop]

Thats why its a metagame card, and you have to analize what decks you expect to face the most where you play and determine how good it is against those decks. 

For example if you expect to face alot of monoblue control, food chain goblins, oath, and other decks with for the most part stable mana bases, it really won't be worth running more than two maindeck, because you don't want to see it against those decks.

 If you expect to see alot of decks that back to basics will be good against, workshops, 4 color control, birdsh*t ect...  then you could definatly up the number to 3 or 4.  However you also have to look at the fact that you really don't wan't to see more than one back to basics because they are useless in multiples.  So if your looking for a perfect number that is going to be almost impossible, because it really depends on your metagame.  If i was playing the deck in an unknown metagame, I would most likely run 2 copies myself because monoblue does a good job of digging through the deck, and it saves me from having dead cards in certain matchups, and I would definatly have another copy in the sb to bring in when its good.

A succesful player most often will analize when cards such to back to basics are going to be good by having a strong understanding of the decks they expect to play most often and adjusting their deck to meet the needs of the meta game.

[Kowal]

Here's the deal:

Morphling is trash.  It does nothing until you already won.  I'd sooner run land in that slot, since it actually does something.  Ophidian beats for the win more often than Morphling does anyway.  If you seriously need a fast kill, run something more useful.  Shit, I'd sooner run Umezawa's Jitte.  At least it removes opposiing Jittes, and who knows, your phid might kill a welder or something.

Darksteel Colossus is bad in monoblue.  You have no realistic ways to get rid of the fucker, since running Chalice necessitates not running Brainstorm, and Thirst doesn't really work with the deck the way the draw spells have to function.  I liked it at one point, but I no longer feel that's the direction the deck should be going in.

3 Back to Basics is a must.  If you aren't running 3 or 4, then you should cut them altogether and run black and red.  The deck exists solely to abuse Back to Basics, and if you aren't set up to properly abuse it, then you're just playing the worst of both worlds.

I've been sitting on another new test list.  If it does well at West Springfield at the end of the month, I'll be turning it in to a starcity article.  The list will be public for those of you without premium, so don't worry.

EDIT:  The guy who was posting while I was, if you're in a metagame full of monocolored decks, why the hell are you playing monoblue?

[coop]

In his post he said that he was running monoblue control and was seeing alot of monocolored decks, if he still wants to run monoblue it would make sense to stop running 3 or 4 a card that was dead against alot of the decks he expects to face (switching decks at this point would be the best solution). 

I guess that what also should be discussed is how good is B2B at the moment.  It wouldn't seem to do much against slaver or meandeck gifts which seems to be half the meta game, however its pretty good against fish and shops which seem to make up the other half so it seems like a tough call.

(edit)-  Is B2B good against fish?  Aether Vial seems like one of the best answers fish has, although it does shut off their manlands.

[prosbloom225]

B2b is good against cs, and sometimes versus stax.  It takes out most of the colored base in cs, and slows down shops in stax.  I'd mainboard the card because everyone runs nonbasics (except that goofy uba stax deck).

[Disburden]

I've been trying to make a good list for Mono-U for some time now, it's hard as hell for this meta, but I try anyway since I've been playing it for years and I can't stay away.

I have a few questions about certain aspects of the deck:

1) The draw engine. Does everyone agree that ophidian is mandatory? If so what other draw is being used? I have been using four Ophid with three Impulse.

2) The artifacts. I have four COTV main right now, but I'm not sure I like them at all, I've played 5c Stax for a while now and It's always been great in such a deck, but in my build I can't use it well enough since all my spells are 1cc, 2cc, or 3cc. It seems to hurt me too much. Does anyone else have this problem? I haven't been using powder keg at all, maybe this should be in the COTV spot?

3) strip effects. I haven't used any in a long time, what does everyone think about that? I've been pretty happy with the 10 island configuration w/o any strip/wastelands.

I would also say I agree with Kowal. I haven't used Morphling in a year and I wouldn't try to again, he's slow and combersum.

Here is my list for Reference:

10 Island
3 delta
3 Strand
1 Library
5 moxen
1 Black lotus
1 Sol ring

3 Impulse
1 Ancestral
1 Time walk
4 FOW
4 Drain
1 Tinker
4 Mana leak
1 misdirection
1 Mystical Tutor
2 Merchant Scroll

1 Darksteel Colossus
4 Ophidian

2 Vedalken Shackles
4 COTV
3 back To basics


I'm pretty much sure that DSC isn't worth the win condition slot, but what else is? I like shackles alot but with other Tinker-Colossus flying around it's rather hard to steel an 11/11, especially with a deck that has 10 islands 

Kowal, I'm curious about your opinions on the draw engine, I think you said once that Thirst was superior. Do you still feel the same on that topic? I don't know if it's worth it since I don't want to Thirst unless I am pretty sure an artifact is going to be dumped and not two spells.

[Kowal]

I guess that what also should be discussed is how good is B2B at the moment.  It wouldn't seem to do much against slaver or meandeck gifts which seems to be half the meta game, however its pretty good against fish and shops which seem to make up the other half so it seems like a tough call.

Back to Basics is the deck.  Period.  If you're in a metagame where monocolored decks are common, don't play monoblue.

That said, your role as a monoblue player is to make Back to Basics as brutal as possible.  You can do this with things like supplementary mana denial, obnoxious mana related spells (like Mana Leak), and sometimes even tapping effects (like if you happen to run Fire/Ice and a slight red splash or something)

As far as the draw engine, I feel Ophidian is the best choice for the deck.  While Thirst is better in pretty much everything else since it immediately accelerates you ahead of your opponent in terms of card development, drawing three cards isn't enough for monoblue.  To ensure your opponent remains "locked", you really need to be drawing 2 or 3 cards a turn, every turn, until your opponent is dead.  As far as supplemental draw/optimization if you choose to run it, Brainstorm is a no brainer in most lists without Chalice, and Impulse is the Brainstorm for decks with Chalice.  If you really need more than that, Thirst is probably the next most likely candidate.  You could also go the route Smmenen went with his gifts list and run a bunch of merchant scrolls and even Gifts.  Gifts Ungiven for Drain, Force, Leak, Chalice isn't that awful...  it's not great, but it's better than most Fact or Fictions would give you.

[Smmenen]

I suggest using Sakashima the Imposter.  He is the best win conditoin in mono blue now. 

[Revvik]

...and it still has rk post art. 
Maybe a U/R splash is still the way to take things these days, unless Shadowmage Infiltrator turns out to be strictly better against an aggro / monocolored field.

Blood Moon doesn't even give them the option of using their lands once for their intended purpose unless you're playing against Control Slaver - and I think UR should have solid matchup against Slaver after a Blood Moon hits anyways.

[DeMarki]

I suggest using Sakashima the Imposter.  He is the best win conditoin in mono blue now.

And what about vs. creatureless decks or stupid weenies? I don't see what good thing this card has to offer, except for the artwork of course.

2) The artifacts. I have four COTV main right now, but I'm not sure I like them at all, I've played 5c Stax for a while now and It's always been great in such a deck, but in my build I can't use it well enough since all my spells are 1cc, 2cc, or 3cc. It seems to hurt me too much. Does anyone else have this problem? I haven't been using powder keg at all, maybe this should be in the COTV spot?

Chalice is definitelly a Powerhouse and it should stay main! God, how many combo and stupid aggro have I trashed with this one...
I run 4 Chalices and 3 Kegs for the maximum board control. Trust me, it's worth it.

Morphling is trash.  It does nothing until you already won.  I'd sooner run land in that slot, since it actually does something.

I hope this one is a joke and I'm just too stupid to laugh.

As far as supplemental draw/optimization if you choose to run it, Brainstorm is a no brainer in most lists without Chalice, and Impulse is the Brainstorm for decks with Chalice.

There is absolutely no comparison between Brainstorm and Impulse. I really can't stand Impulse even though I've tried to run it so many times and always gave it a second chance, but it's simply TRASH in comparison to Braistorm. I really hate it when I can't optimise my hand on the first turn and I have to wait for the second turn to cast that damn Impulse. It's just too expensive, since you can have almost the same effect at half the price, believe me it's VERY important. I run 4 Chalices and still my Brainstorms remain maindecked and they will stay there.

[prosbloom225]

Brainstorm > Impulse
Even in decks without major shuffle effects like fetchlands.

Brainstorm is not only better because it costs less, but because you draw 3 and put and 2 from your hand back on your library.  Works great because one to two of the cards you put back, your going to draw anyway.  With impulse theyre on the bottom of your library, and you don't get to choose cards from your hand to put back.  With monoblue control you could be putting 3 drains on the bottom of your library for all you know.  Brainstorm is the superior card in every situation.

O yes, and Morphling = Ownage

[Kowal]

I hope this one is a joke and I'm just too stupid to laugh.

No, I'm serious.  I'd rather run pretty much anything in that slot.  Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale would be a better inclusion than Morphling.


As far as people saying "OMG BRAINSTORM IS BETTER THAN IMPULSE" well, no shit.  I didn't say Impulse is a better card.  However, if you're running Chalice of the Void, you can't realistically run Brainstorm.  The casting cost does not play nicely with your primary goal.

And as for Sakashima...  I don't like it.  Control Magic has the same cost, but instead of copying that Colossus, Titan, or Welder, it just takes it.  So sexy.

[Disburden]

As far as everyone saying Morphling is still good, I really don't understand this argument. It costs five, and to use the abilities you need to play a fuck ton of blue, plus he's only 3/3 before using these abilities. How is that best for the deck? I think a lot of people playing Mono U play Morphling because of sentimental value, not because it's an efficient threat.

I really don't know if I like the Rogue legend that Steve mentioned either. how is that better than V. Doppelganger? I mean you can bounce it, but the bounce is the same as the cost, wouldn't that be hard to achieve when you need to leave mana open for Drain, leak, etc?

I was rather confused by someone saying they run chalice and brainstorm. What are you setting Chalice for most of the time if you run brainstorm? Personally, I really don't like setting it to 2cc since all our control is 2cc, which means I try to avoid that setting as much as possible. Running four impulse would add to the 2cc of the curve and therefore leave you open to cast Chalice for 1 a lot more effectively. I love brainstorm, but how do you not get fucked over a ton of matchups? You need to draw a lot with this deck..

I cut Tinker-colossus because I hated it in this deck, it really doesn't secure a win and if colossus gets RFG you're pretty much screwed. I still run two shackles though, and currently looking for a better win than Tinker-Colossus.

[Jacob Orlove]

And as for Sakashima...  I don't like it.  Control Magic has the same cost, but instead of copying that Colossus, Titan, or Welder, it just takes it.  So sexy.

Yeah, but Control Magic doesn't copy Ophidian while you wait for their huge creature to come down.

[Kowal]

If Ophidian resolved and you have 2UU open, you already won the game.

[Disburden]

If Ophidian resolved and you have 2UU open, you already won the game.

Perhaps running Sakashima as a one-of and then running another major threat would make a good win condition? I understand that with phids out you're pretty much in the clear but you do have to swing and kill eventually.

I'm sure you have some awesome win condition you're not telling anyone about 

[Kowal]

Well, I'll be completely awesome, I mean honest, and explain in detail.

I began with the suggestion that Morphling should be replaced with Stinker Colossus and Shackles.

I came to the realization that Colossus is fucking awful, and cut it.

Realizing I always killed people with Ophidian damage and not the kill condition, I neglected to replace it.

Trying to shore up my bad matchups with Gifts and CS, I cut the Shackles to make room for some super sexy secret tech that will be unveiled probably at the end of August.

Finding myself with a bad Fish matchup, I put Shackles back in the deck, retaining the anti-gifts and CS tech.  As such, I still have some great hate for Fish, some supplemental damage for my Ophidians, and a relatively good Gifts matchup.

Anything else on my build in particular I'd prefer not to answer just yet, though you are welcome to ask.

[DeMarki]

Realizing I always killed people with Ophidian damage and not the kill condition, I neglected to replace it.

Trying to shore up my bad matchups with Gifts and CS, I cut the Shackles to make room for some super sexy secret tech that will be unveiled probably at the end of August.

Finding myself with a bad Fish matchup, I put Shackles back in the deck, retaining the anti-gifts and CS tech.  As such, I still have some great hate for Fish, some supplemental damage for my Ophidians, and a relatively good Gifts matchup.

Anything else on my build in particular I'd prefer not to answer just yet, though you are welcome to ask.

I'll pretty sure he talks about ophidians equiped with SOFI or Jitte!

I was rather confused by someone saying they run chalice and brainstorm. What are you setting Chalice for most of the time if you run brainstorm? Personally, I really don't like setting it to 2cc since all our control is 2cc, which means I try to avoid that setting as much as possible. Running four impulse would add to the 2cc of the curve and therefore leave you open to cast Chalice for 1 a lot more effectively. I love brainstorm, but how do you not get fucked over a ton of matchups? You need to draw a lot with this deck..

So what if Chalice stops a couple of your Brainstorms from beeing cast? It still stops more of your opponent's spells and it would be still ok to run. I still run Brainstorm even with Chalices main, because the most crucial turns are the first ones and I just want to optimze my hand as soon as it gets. Unfortunately this isn't happening with Impulse.

[Kowal]

Another problem with monoblue is that Brainstorm is only going to swap one counterspell for another.  The very best thing you can possibly do with any given Brainstorm is to dig in to Mana Drain and Ophidian, which, while a solid pair of cards, isn't going to win on their own (quite clearly you need Sakashima the whatever--  or, you know, just like, more counters).  Impulse is not any better, no...  But if you need a digging effect, it makes a better substitute than the real thing in the face of your own chalices.

That said, I don't like either one at all.  I've grudgingly run Impulse since Summer of last year, but I've never once liked it.  I've also tested Brainstorm since about that time, and the issue of running in to your chalices and the fact it's a weak slot in a deck where all the cards say the same thing has made me appreciate it even less.

[Moxlotus]

I'll pretty sure he talks about ophidians equiped with SOFI or Jitte!

If you have control over the game you can be winning by attacking with a single Mountain Goat.  Phids win games.  Once you have been drawing 3 cards per turn and have whittled your opponent's hand down to nothing while you still have a full grip of counters you can simply start dealing damage.

[Kowal]

If you have control over the game you can be winning by attacking with a single Mountain Goat.  Phids win games.  Once you have been drawing 3 cards per turn and have whittled your opponent's hand down to nothing while you still have a full grip of counters you can simply start dealing damage.

I couldn't have put it better myself.

[jackpot]

I doubt its a mountain goat. More like Mishra's factories or faeirie conclaves. Then again, Mountain goat does have mountainwalk!

[coop]

Running phid as your only win condition have you found that finding the time to win in a tournament environment is difficult especially if you lose a long game 1?  If so wouldn't it be a good idea to sb an extra win condition in order to speed up your clock for the matches you need to win quickly?

[Kowal]

You won't lose a long game one if you play correctly.  You either win a long game one, win a short one because people scoop to multiple Ophidians and Back to Basics, or lose a short one because you scoop before things get out of hand.