3cc, building and playing it right.

[forests failed you]

I have had a lot of request from basic users to move this into the Open Forumn so that non-full members could discuss this list, and I finally got around to doing so.  Enjoy.

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From my personal Keeper players tend to fall into a specific model or player type; in particular, they tend to be fairly conservative players (in many cases far from the edge of Vintage innovation), they tend to be backward looking, and in many instances they are nostalgic Magic players. What I mean by this is that quite often Keeper, 4cc, 3cc, or whatever you want to call 'the deck' is selected by a particular pilot due to the familiarity of its style of play, or because of a sentimental attachment to the Keeper archetype.

However, this is article is not a an arguement to validate the merits of playing an old or outdated control deck based on my own nostalgic biases; nor is it an attempt to make a bad deck good again.  Rather, I hope it can be the start of a thoughtful and insightful dialog into the relevance of a particular deck strategy, that in the current metagame, seems to once again be strong. In a varied field full of Blue/Green Fish, (with Chalice of the Void) and Mana Drain combo decks, the defensive nature intrinsic to UBW control seems to make it a fairly strong deck choice. So without further adieu I present a retooled/metagamed version of 3cc, and an explanation of why I chose certain cards, or elected to leave out others; as well as an analysis of sideboard strategies against other key match ups within the current metagame.

3cc Keeper List, by Brian DeMars

//Counters
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will

//Drawing
4 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Fact or Fiction
3 Skeletal Scrying
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Sensei's Divining Top

//Tutoring
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
2 Cunning Wish
1 Tinker

//Removal
1 Mind Twist
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Disenchant
1 Balance

//Miscellany
1 Time Walk
1 Isochron Scepter
1 Crucible of Worlds

//Win
1 Darksteel Colossus
2 Decree of Justice

//Artifact mana
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring

//Lands
3 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
2 Island
1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds

2 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Library of Alexandria

//Sideboard
SB: 2 Energy Flux
SB: 1 Swords to Plowshares
SB: 2 Disenchant
SB: 1 Stifle
SB: 2 Arcane Laboratory
SB: 2 Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Duress
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt (or, 1 Coffin Purge, 1 Tormod's Crypt)
SB: 1 Skeletal Scrying

Let's start with the basics.  It should be obvious to all that Red has been cut from this deck completely; a change that after great efforts of testing, and extremely successful tournament outings, has proven to be extremely worthwhile.  Cutting Gorilla Shaman and Red Elemental Blast hurts, and the loss of Fire/Ice is also fairly annoying; but it is completely necessary in order to have a competitive Mana base.  I have dropped Red in order to keep the Wastelands main deck, as well as provide the room to play 2 Basic Island.  (Also, Oboro, Palace in the Clouds is functionally a basic Island in this deck).
I know there has been some debate lately over whether 3cc decks should take on Red or White as the third color.  Of course that call should always be made on the merits of what decks you want to beat, and right now, as far as I can tell there is a lot of U/G Fish, FCG, and a lot of Gifts.  White seemed the stronger choice because of the powerful creature removal it provides the deck, via Balance and Swords. Also, I found the Red version had very poor ability to remove the formats key enchantments, Chains of Mephistopheles, In the Eye of Chaos, or Oath of Druids.  Also, I noticed when playing Red 3cc because of the Shamans and Wastelands there was a tendency to want to spend large efforts trying to attack an opponent's Mana base.  And while this was sometimes useful, most decks are optimized well enough that unless my opponent was Mana screwed from the start, exherting resources to stunt Mana development was in many ways a futile strategy and they could easily draw cards and not lose much tempo.
While this 3cc list utilizes land destruction in the form of Wasteland and Strip Mine, killing an opponents Mana is not one of the decks primary objectives.  Although the deck can sometimes do stupid things (Crucible, Strip Mine), it isn't part of 3cc's main objectives.  Rather, the purpose of the strip effects is to kill problematic non-basics that pose specific problems to 3cc's inherent strategy.  Boseiju, Bazaar of Baghdad, Library of Alexandria, Mishra's Workshop, Mishra's Factory, and Tolerian Academy are specific examples of lands that try to out 'advantage' 3cc in various ways.  Also, the Waste effects are key when trying to resolve important spells when an opponent has two blue lands untapped during your main phase and has Mana Drain threatening to counter Tinker, Mind Twist, Balance, or Yawgmoth's Will.

EXPLANATION OF THE MANA BASE

Although the addition of Wasteland, Strip Mine, and Library of Alexandria lower the capacity of the deck to play the popular model of 4-5 basic Islands, to a lower 2-3; I have very rarely found myself Mana screwed while playing this deck in tournaments.   
Oboro, Palace in the Clouds is actually insane in this deck; it does so much for so little.  Firstly, for almost all practical purposes it can't be Strip Mined or Wastelanded, because it can be bounced.  However, the advantages don't end there.  It can go back to its controllers hand in order to get 7 in the grip for Library; it can be bounced, Brainstromed, and Fetched away in the late game; and it also can help to do some interesting Land Destruction when combined with Balance.  The only situations that make it inferior to Island are that it is Legendary, and is hosed by Blood Moon and Back to Basics.  However, it isn't susceptible to Boil, Choke, or Sundering Titan.

EXPLANATION OF THE DRAW AND THE THREATS

Keeper is, at its heart, one of the purest examples of Card Advantage control in Vintage.  Its primary style of play is to diffuse its opponent's early threats and then gain control of the game through crippling card advantage and counter.  The Skeletal Scrying/Brainstorm draw engine provides the deck with the capacity to gain huge card advantage (sometimes five or six cards for one spell), with the casting of one spell.  Not to mention that Scrying is a great sink for the main phase Mana provided from Mana Drain.
The key difference of this deck list from preexisting 3cc lists is the means through which the game is played out. Although many of the components of this list have been borrowed from preexisting 3 and 4cc lists, when brought together in this specific incarnation they seem to be particularly powerful in the current metagame.  The addition of one Sensei's Divining Top, one Crucible of Worlds, one Isochron's Scepter and Colossus, plus Tinker, has proved to be awesome.  Scepter, Crucible and Colossus provide a Trio of extremely useful Tinker targets, (two of which are easy two, even one drops depending upon the hand).  Isochron's Scepter and Crucible of Worlds are both good inclusions in 3cc because they provide extreme, and potentially, unlimited forms of card advantage over time.
As for Sensei's Divining Top, I can't say enough good things about it.  The card on its own is insane, but when combined with 3cc's numerous tutors, Fetches (+Crucible), and other shuffle effects makes Top a means of finding almost whatever you need, and also, a good way of never having to miss land drops (even over the long game, or in draw-go types of mirror matches).  Which lastly brings me to Colossus:  he isn't elegant, he isn't techy, but he beats the living crap out of the aggro match ups when he comes down early, via Tinker.  The Decree of Justice has also been a strong choice in the control Mirror since it is uncounterable and gets cycled during your opponent's end step.  I selected Decree over Angel because as seems to be common belief Angel is just too slow and doesn't do enough in the Control or Combo match ups.  Although she is good against aggro, Swords, Balance, Scepter, Colossus, and Wasteland seem to do the job just fine.  Not to mention the match up improves further post board, and there are additional tools available in the board via Cunning Wish.

The list also has a few other key one-ofs most of which are self explanatory and do devastating things: Balance, Mind Twist, Yawgmoth's Will, and Tutors.  The main card of interest in the main deck has been the Disenchant, and having it maindeck has paid off big time.  With Demonic Tutor and Mystical Tutor in the main deck it isn't hard to find Disenchant early in order to kill an annoying Chains of Mephistopheles, In the Eye of Chaos, or Chalice of the Void (all of which are devastating against modern control decks).

THE SIDEBOARD

Much of this deck's power, and the ways in which match ups become more, and more, favorable has to do with 3cc's ability to rely on its extremely versatile sideboard to win matches.  Cunning Wish is a tutor for silver bullets, and the sideboards is designed to directly attack the strategies of the most important and devastating decks in the format.
Energy Flux is so insane against anything playing with Workshops or Artifact Lands that it is ridiculous.  I kid you not, it is an absolute beating.  Not to mention 3cc packs multiple copies of Disenchant to deal with problematic enchantments or individual early artifact threats.  Against Goblins 3cc has Red Blast and Swords which both come in and slow them down to the point where you can just win. 
   Arcane Laboratory is actually good in this deck since you can play it as early as possible and then later cycle your win condition for the win.  I have also found that Tormod’s Crypt is a fairly useful tool that improves 3cc’s match up against gifts, since you can stop them from playing Yawgmoth’s Will, and ultimately killing with Tendrils. Then Colossus can be easily dealt with by way of Swords to Plowshares.  The more difficult match ups for this deck tend to be Gifts or Slaver, although they are still very winnable matches, especially if play skill and deck familiarity are on your side. 

CONCLUSION

   I have had very good luck with this list and after countless hours of testing and playing later I thought I would open up a discussion about my specific list.  Based solely on the fact that Gen Con tends to be a fairly aggro field, 3cc may be a perfectly viable metagame choice this August.  Hopefully some interesting innovation or insights on 3cc can be discovered or learned through a discussion of this specific list, or other lists that function similarly.

[cophos]

I really miss the maindeck Duress's. The last time I ran 3cc I played about 3 of them.
You really need them to beat decks like gift's.dec (especially MG) and combo in general. With having "only" 8 counters and a rather slow carddrawengine they'll just beat you otherwise. ( Chalice's in the board wouldn't hurt BTW.)
Energy Flux seems a bit weird also, since you run lots of important artifacts yourself. (Jewellery, Scepter, Crucible.) I guess you want to board them in vs Stax and the like, but probably additional Crucible's or even Sacred Ground's wouldn't be bad either ... But: I see the reason for running them, and I don't think at all it was a completely wrong thing ...

[rvs]

If Sensei Top is so insane, why do you run only 1?

[forests failed you]

Two reasons.  Firstly, the list is extremely tight and there is no other card that can be cut for it.  And secondly because you never want to see it in multiples. 

Also, Keeper's general stratagy is to control the game, play a land every turn, and not die via dealing with threats and playing cards.  Top is critical in the mid to late game, and by that time you have usually found it.  I am confidant that 1 is the correct number of Tops in this deck.

[Ultima]

It seems like you roll over to chalice for 2 considering you have no way of removing it once it hits.

Also, you should consider echoing decay to kill multiple welders, not multiple BEBs.

[forests failed you]

I'm not going to lie to you, Chalice two is a play that this deck does not like to see.  However, you can still win.  You can still cycle Decree of Justice or cast it, as well as Tinker Colossos for the win.  After board the deck gains Energy Flux, which is an absolute beating against decks that play Chalice.  Also, you have Force of Will and Mana Drain to stop Chalice two from hiting play.  Also, if you were particularly concerned about Chalice for two, there are two Cunning Wishes in the deck, it would be very easy to devote one sideboard slot to cards like Chain of Vapor, Rushing River, Rebuild, or any other instant that removes Artifacts that costs one or three.

[Pave]

In my experience there are a number of broad problems that multi-colour control faces today.

The first, it may be worth remembering, Zherbus identified when he shifted from 4cc to 3cc: a vulnerable mana base.  Against 4cc the land destruction that both Fish and Stax (and other forms of aggro like mono-black) effected were decisive.  For good reason: those attacks may always have been aimed at such multi-colour control.  Zherbus's shift from 4cc to 3cc and furthermore his replacing Wastelands with bonafide lands largely if not wholly corrected this vulnerability.  (He cut red also partly because running it logically eventuates in Control Slaver.)  The price, however, was a reduced effectiveness in both artifact (Rack and Ruin) and creature (Fire/Ice) removal.  So against Keeper Stax and Fish are still strong.  Disenchant and Swords take up the slack but do they do it enough?  That is a question that I persistently ask of 3cc.  Do results suggest that the answer is ‘no’?

Four mainboard Duresses also helped a lot, especially when aimed at artifacts, even Moxes, or draw engines like Thirst for Knowledge.  And they also served a synergy which has been noted before: they bought time in the early game and provided additional fuel for Scrying up a mid-game advantage which could, with skill or hope or both, carry the game into its later stages, where Keeper traditionally has the advantage, if not the game.  But Duresses and Scryings don't always behave like that, and sometimes you need to cycle an early Scrying (for 1 or 2), which is sub-optimal (sometimes painful) and generally outdone by Thirst for Knowledge in Slaver match-ups.  3cc lacks a perfect draw engine, in my experience.  That is its second problem.

The third problem has always struck me as too slow a clock, or more broadly no perfect kill condition.  Decrees often take up to 4 attacks or so.  And today it seems to me that the best way to Tinker for Collosus is to play Meandeck Gifts.

There are more specific problems with individual cards, and I now turn more closely to the list beginning this thread. 

Cunning Wish is too slow today, in my experience.  By the time it is truly effective (the mid if not late game) Keeper might already have lost.  Keeper has to stay in it early.  Zherbus identified this and it is why he played 4 Duresses.  The problem with Duress, though, is that it often strikes me as a tempo loss.  Casting it first turn is a best-case scenario, but even then they may just draw a better card, as Smmenen observed testing Duress in Gifts.  By turn 2 you want Drain online, and by turn 3 it may be too late, save for Control mirrors.  Around that time you want to start dropping bombs.

Maindeck answers may have to replace Cunning Wish.  I have tried 2 Disenchants with some success.  They shine against Fish, Stax and Oath (and Affinity and Ironworks and Belcher and Sensei, Sensei and so on).  Could Rebuild and/or bounce be an option, upping the blue count and altogether being less dead in other match ups?

Mind Twist is more and more of a risk today with Misdirections to be found in Gifts, Oath builds and even the odd Fish.  It can win games, especially against combo and aggro, but misdirected it can lose you the game.  Should it go to the sideboard?  Perhaps only a more mindful use of it maindeck is required.

Crucible strikes me as so good for Keeper that I am tempted to play with 2 (though a Cunning Wish could play the role of the second, with an Argivian Find on the board, and perhaps a Vampiric Tutor or Gush).  It is a crucial defence against the land destruction of both Fish and Stax and can become a potent offense with strip effects.  It also has a terrifc synergy with Sensei's Divining Top.  Making a land drop and casting a Brainstorm every turn is exactly what Keeper wants to do.  Playing with 2 Tops does strike me as a possibility as they are quite easy to shuffle back into one's deck.  This goes to address somewhat the earlier problem of Keeper's draw engine.  Mooting two Crucibles also addresses the very first problem, so much so that even red may again appear on the margins?  I am unsure.  I am more tempted to instead play with 3 or 4 Wastelands and up the land count to 19 or so, using 6 fetches as well, to thin out that count to facilitate Brainstorms, Tops, and Crucible.  But even these three working in together only really generates mid to late game advantage.  Tops don’t do enough in the early game.

Isochron Sceptre has long been discussed and I am still yet to be convinced of its worth.  It can be a dead draw and having it destroyed or welded out in time is a sorry 2 for 1.  Investing in it by necessity marks a loss of tempo and can leave you vulnerable if one is not very careful.  When exactly do you get Sceptre online, forcefieldyou, and to what effect?  Couln’t Erayo, Soratami Ascendant be better.  Or is Sceptre, contrary to my logic, one of Keeper’s great opportunities, and even alone justifes Swords maindeck?

Swords to Plowshares is often dead for me.  Even by a deck aiming to win with a sole Collosus, it is derided, not feared.  It is, Smmenen notes, like the Stifle attempting to counter Tendrils.  By the time Tendrils (or Gifts) goes off, there will be so many Duresses (or counterspells) online that the odd saviour in Stifle (or Swords) will not be enough.  Instead that Stifle (or Swords) could have been a different card helping you to gain an earlier advantage and preventing that going-off.  Swords serves honourably against aggro, but even then further threats are imminent.

I remember Zherbus mentioning Humility a long time ago.  I have been testing Humility over the 2 Swords.  It then becomes the bomb that Keeper can aim to resolve.  It owns all decks save combo, buying a lot of time.  The kill is then 2 or 3 Decrees, 3 because in game 1 against aggro you need to stop those 1/1s from continually coming.  (1 Vedalkan Shackles can also fulfill the role of this third Decree, but more often the third Decree is less dead.)  The 1 or 2 Crucibles facilitates the WW cost, and if the mana base is rejigged for Humility, 3 or 4 Exalted Angels become a genuine possibility on the board.  Dozer suggested this transformational sideboard to me.  They come in against aggro and likely fish, and can render Keeper a potent form of aggro-control, and also help to keep Scryings online in match ups where one would normally side 1 or 2 out.  (Another kill for Keeper remains, as Dozer has suggested to me: Tinker, Collosus, Masticore, and possibly The Abyss.  I may prefer Humility and 3 Decrees, though they are still slow, which in tournaments is a problem.)

Cutting 2 Cunning Wishes makes room on the board.  I think 2 Pithing Needles are a must: against Sensei, Sensei; Fish; Bazaars in Uba Mask; Welders before Humility can resolve; and a host of others.  I also like 2 Cranials, 1 Boseiju, and a Jester's Cap, though it is somewhat personal.  Even without Tinker Cap is good.  Cranial is good against combo and may be usable against Gifts.  How to beat Gifts remains a real problem for Keeper, partly because both Swords and Disenchant don’t do enough here, and because Gifts draw engine is just better.  Are 4 Duresses key here?  Should Keeper be the deck that breaks Skeletal Scrying (as Gifts breaks its namesake) – is that the way to approach it?

I think 1 Gifts Ungiven can also work in the maindeck of Keeper, dredging up moxes or further draw in the same manner it does for Gifts.  It can also dredge up a host of tutors (for Humility or Will, say) and further fuel a coming Will.  It can also dredge up a strip effect for use with Crucible.  It is not broken in Keeper but it can be very good.  I am still unsure what the best draw engine is.  Is Isochron Sceptre part of the answer?  I am skeptical.  Is Impulse?  It has some synergy with Brainstorm and Top.  Must Keeper net a lot of cards if it can get the ones it wants?  Is Memory Jar part of the answer?  I fear Keeper is too reactive to take full advantage of it.  Then again, it can use Will.  Why not Jar?

I am unsure of all the implications of these thoughts.  I hope you can help me with them.  What are the best proportions of Duresses, Skeletal Scryings, Sensei’s Diving Tops, and Crucibles (if this is the right question)?  More broadly what is Keeper’s best draw engine, kill condition, sideboard plan?  What is the right removal to include maindeck?  Smmenen is looking how to beat both Slaver and Workshop.  Could early suppression followed by Humility, and Pithing Needles on the board, or even maindeck (preferring to use Flooded Strands over Polluted Deltas) be a possibility?

[Ivantheterrible]

 One more thought if white is going to stay over red. Off the top of my head it seems like fish dosent run any fliers right now, maybe its time for moat to reapper. It would be good against aggro shop, most fish builds and R/g/mono g beats (oshawa which some are trying again.) Granted the latter two have naturlize but just make sure you have a counter for that and moat will win the game.

I am also skeptical as to weather of not the best answer for chalice is disenchant as 2 seems like the best number for stax and the like to cast agianst this just because drain is such a beating.

Back when it was relased i also tested Gifts as a singleton in this deck and like the results (I won every game i resolved it in and it was not a win more card.)

Cranial also seems like it could be the hotness. Of course with all these black cards being thrown in their might not be room for any splash but i am not really sure OSE is viable at all so that is probably not the direction to go.

[Pave]

I have seen Moat played recently with some success.  However, there are Flying Men and Spiketail hatchlings in some builds remember (with Curiosity - arg) as well as Faerie Conclave.  The Abyss would often seem to be better, though not against man lands, not necessarily against Workshop and certainly not against Collosus.  With Moat what would Keeper's kill then be?  Exalteds again?  Platinum Angel even?  (Is there any way of making Platinum Angel good?  Even in Slaver it is pretty weak.)  Humility does a similar job and has synergy with Decree, but sometimes even an army of 1/1s needs to be stopped in its tracks.  That is a slight concern.

Against Wastelands Workshop tends to have a hard time casting chalice for 2 before Keeper can drain it.  Workshop often prefers chalice for 1 too, in my experience.  (And chalice for 2 is not gg.  Furthermore, they will often end up sacking it to Smokestack, or welding it away.)  In any case, either a Rebuild, Energy Flux or Engineered Explosives might be put on the board, as earlier mentioned.

If Cranial is good, Cap is better, I believe.  They work well in tandem too.

I have been further testing 4 Duresses and 4 Skeletals main.  It is still amazing.  It gives the deck consistency, among other things.  Boarding in 3 Phyrexian Furnaces against Gifts I can win, and I can dramatically outdraw Control Slaver.  If the first Scrying is sub-optimal the second can be nuts, more than making up for the first.  It just leaves one a little low on life v. aggro.  So Tinker, Collosus, Masticore and The Abyss may be the better kill with this draw engine - over Humility and 3 Decrees.  The latter is more bonafide control, though, I feel, as the Decrees cycle.  But, as with mana drain, sometimes you need to swing dramatically into aggro, and even at low life you can still have time for 2 swings. 

Try Zherbus's old list here: http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/9205.html.  This still beats Slaver.  Replace 3 Decrees and Old Man, though, for Tinker, Collosus, Masticore (die Welder, die weenie) and The Abyss, and see its potential more generally.  With a slightly updated sideboard (Needles?), this could be potent, I believe.

[forests failed you]

I disagree with going the old man of the sea route.  From my experience many of the good aggro decks just are not hosed well enough by the wily myraid.  He can almost never steal Wild Mongrel, Mishras Factory, or Basking Rootwallas (which are all over the place right now).  Also, he just isn't that good against FCG.  He is too slow, and they play too many threats at one time.  Plus, He is awful against Tendrils combo, Gifts, and Stax.  However, I don't think that running Vedelken Shackles in the board is awful.  It can almost always steal anything that Old Man could, plus it doesn't suffer from summoning sickness.  As an added bonus, you can Tinker for it and it can't be REBed.

Also, We've tested Needles since I origionally posted this thread and it turns out they are actually nuts against Slaver decks. 

Duress is really nuts in some match ups, but I've generally found that trading cards one for one with a Keeper deck doesn't help you win tons of games.  Keeper is all about two for ones, gaining savage card advantage, and controling the board through the power of hand size and Mana advantage.  I admit, they really help you out against combo decks, but against Stax or aggro, or even aggro control (Tog or Slaver).  I'd rather those duresses be anything else game one, and game two I would probably side them out.  The reason Duress is so strong in other control decks, like TOG, is that they are trying to disrupt you long enough to win the game in one quick swoop.  3CC does not swoop, it is a boa constrictor type deck that sets up a broken play and then controls the game.  The manner in which 3CC actually deals 20 damage is almost irrelevent, because really  wins its games via Mind Twist, Yawgmoth's Will, Isochron's Scepter, and Crucible of Worlds.

[Pave]

I know what you mean about 1 for 1s in Keeper - they are generally to be avoided - though in the case of Duress the Skeletal that follows it, and which it facilitates (both in the provision of fuel and in the removing of a counter from your opponent), can reap it back in terms of card advantage.  That is my feeling, but I agree with your logic.

That logic makes me ask, though, is white really pulling its weight?  Swords and Disenchant are both 1 for 1s.  Is white worth it for Balance alone?  Some would say yes.  MaxxMatt added a Tundra to his Gifts deck at one stage purely for Balance.  Balance is one of the best cards in Keeper, but still...  Why not ditch white for red, at least by and large, and reap the virtual card advantage of Gorilla Shaman, Rack and Ruin and Fire/Ice?  Keeper:

really wins its games via Mind Twist, Yawgmoth's Will, Isochron's Scepter, and Crucible of Worlds.

3cc (with red instead of white) can win like this too.  Fire/Ice on a stick seems to me to be one of the Sceptre's better applications.  Is Balance and the possibility of either Swords or Disenchant on a stick enough to warrant white over red?  Or is Keeper's mana base still sufficiently vulnerable to demand either one or the other, with white genuinely getting the nod on the strength of Balance alone?

EDIT: There are the Decrees too.  I had forgotten them.  How often would you kill with them and in what match-ups?  How are they generally?  Do they pull the decisive weight in warranting white over red?

EDIT2: I just saw that Thomas Esser got 3rd in the German Vintage Championship with a 3cc maindeck almost identical to yours, save the following notables: -1 Isochron Sceptre, -1 Sensei's Divining Top, -1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds; +1 Vampiric Tutor, +2 Wastelands.  That must be the highest finishing for Keeper in some time.  After beating Uba Stax, Esser finally bowed out to the 5cStax that won.  He had 3 Serenity on the board.  Would Energy Flux have faired better?

[forests failed you]

Yes, it is true that Swords and Balance do trade one for one, however they are in the deck to be tutored or searched for.  The point of having those cards is that they trade for bombs that make it through your counter wall.  (Colossus, Stax components, annoying enchantments.)  Also, with the addition of Sensei Top, you can avoid drawing them when you don't want them in many instances. 

Part of the problem is that Keeper does not have a combo finish, so you can't just ignore your opponents stuff the way that Slaver or Gifts can.  You instead, have to play with answers to their threats.  Honestly, the main reason for playing white is actually for Disenchant.  It is absolutely insane right now.  It is an early answer to Chalice of the Void for Zero or one, as well as answers almost every card in Stax, both enchantments and Artifacts.  I actually thing that Energy Flux is better against Stax than Serenity.  When I played this deck I was forced to consider what my bomb in the board against Stax would be, and I concluded that Flux was better than either Serenity or Sacred Ground.  That fact that it stays in play and continues to wreck their board even after it has destroyed all of their stuff is insane. 

I don't really see the need for four Wasteland right now.  The only match up that it really helps you out against is Stax, and maybe the Fishes.  This deck is an almost autowin against anything that is similar to aggro control, fish, ug fish, vial fish.  Furthermore, I designed this version as a metagame call to beat up on the Fish decks in my metagame.  I actually think that it would be a solid decision for GenCon as I predict a lot of FCG and fish to be floating around, because of the Zero proxy factor. 

The difficult match up for this deck is Slaver, but the pithing needles make it winable and help to protect darksteel colossus from welder./  It is all very speculative, but I don't think I would have cut either scepter or Top from the maindeck.  Top helps you find one ofs and maximizes the quality of your draws in the mid to late game.  And scepter gives you another powerful card to Tinker for.  I actually Tinker for Scepter and Crucible with this deck 80% of the time.  Once you have taken control of the game, this deck can win at is leisure.

[orgcandman]

actually, I'd like to comment on this only because I have TONS of experience building, tuning and playing multi-color control variants.

I think Isochron Scepter is the wrong way to go with multi-color control. The reason is that the spells you imprint on it almost never win you the game, and really just serve as "cute tricks." While the rare Ancestral imprint can come up and win games, it's just not worth it as scrying gives you just as good a way to get those instants ala wish, and not only that, it fills your hand while doing so. The other big problem with scepter is that you need it, a spell to imprint and ~4 mana to use it the turn it comes down. It's just not worth the maindeck slot.

I definately don't think that the 4 maindeck slots you take up for random crucible lock are worth it. Honestly, if you're in the position where you have a strip, and a crucible on the board, AND it's worthwhile for you to be recuring it on their land every turn rather than them just winning, you're probably in a winning position anyway. Combine that with the fact that many decks nowadays run so many basics that only strip mine is useful, and you end up with lots of dead weight.

Similarly, I don't think dropping to less than 3 decree of justice is a correct call. Decree is never dead in hand, is never card disadvantage, AND puts a surprise clock up in the control mirrors. PLUS it provides a drain sink if you need one.

I'm pretty sure that in the current meta duress is needed. It slows down gifts and combo decks to your speed of play. Alternatively, you could look at playing meddling mages, althought they're not as good in my opinion.

I have to disagree with energy flux in the board. Serenity is MUCH better in any of the matchups you'd bring it in against. PLUS it has the added benefit of taking out EVERYTHING rather than giving your opponent a choice.

These are just my random observations. I'll comment more when I get a chance, but the better half got back, so I'm out

[forests failed you]

To be honest with you, I completely disagree with your assumption that you don't have bombs to imprint on Isochron's Scepter.  Imprinting, Brainstorm or  Mana Drain is insane in every matchup and nets you huge card advantage.  It also serves as a TInker target.  I really don't like to randomly go get DSC, I'd much rather find a way to get card advantage and gain control of the game.  This is the same thought process that makes me like Crucible of Worlds in the maindeck.  It is an absolute bomb to play against Stax, as well as against Fish decks.  The other reason that Wasteland is in the deck is that when playing 3cc specific non basic lands must be answered.  SInce the deck can't 'just end' the game via Slaver or Tendrils, cards like Boseiju, Bazaar, Mishra's Factory, Tolerian Academy, or Library must be answered or you just lose.  As for Crucible, it has mad synergy with fetchlands and Top/Brainstorm.  Even in matchups where Crucible Strip isn't a big factor, the ability to improve your quality of cardsi is insane.  Top is also good because it allows you to keep a counterspell on top of your deck, and at your disposal even if your opponent has Duress.  Also, it lets you draw and play a land every turn while having access to the counterspell on top of your deck if you need it.  Simply put, having top in play is like having an extra card in hand during your opponents turn. 

I think that Duress is simply a play preference.  I personally don't like playing with it in a control deck, because I feel that trading cards one for one doesn't help you get ahead in many matchups, it merely keeps your opponent in check.  Whereas I can see why many people would like this option, I personally, don't think the card is necessary especially in this Stax, Fish, Slaver, FCG metagame. 

As for Decree, I think that it is fairly Mana intensive and that I don't really like to have them in my hand.  I'd rather have more business or game altering bombs.  Also with sensei top in the deck, when the opportune moment comes it isn't hard to find a Decree or Tinker. 

[Pave]

@Ivantheterrible:

Humility also strikes me as better than Moat in that it renders useless Welders without recourse to Needles on the board, though granted it does this at a stage when it may already be too late.  Pentavite tokens and Platinum Angel can also fly over the Moat, and a Triskelion can keep pinging over it.  In other match-ups some creatures fly: Hypnotic Spectre, for instance.  Humility also disables Grim Lavamancer.

I will test Moat, though.  I haven't yet.

[Revvik]

I think that Duress is simply a play preference.  I personally don't like playing with it in a control deck, because I feel that trading cards one for one doesn't help you get ahead in many matchups, it merely keeps your opponent in check.  Whereas I can see why many people would like this option, I personally, don't think the card is necessary especially in this Stax, Fish, Slaver, FCG metagame.

I personally love Duress, but its effectiveness has been lost recently.  I should add that I've stopped playing it for the most part in my 'Tog builds because it just feels like wasted space.  It's a horrible topdeck, even when both of you are relying on whatever you're drawing for the turn.

[Pave]

I agree with the above comments about Duress to some degree.  But when you have the full 4 Duress and 4 Skeletal Scrying, it seems to me a slightly different story.

Furthermore, how does 3cc (white) beat Gifts without Duress?

[Cr0v4x]

@ Pave

Well, 3cc simply beats Gifts with superior carddraw, swords to plowshares ans last but not least tormod's crypt. I believe that 3 swords postsideboarding should ensure you to remove the colossus. After playtesting gifts i learned that the tendrils-kill is quite difficult as it takes the right cards at the right time and a full graveyard to achieve this goal.

[forests failed you]

against gifts I would board +2 Crypt, +1 Scrying, +1 Disenchant and board out -1 Decree, -1 Swords, -2 Cunning Wish.  The key to this match up is that they will eventually have to cast a Gifts Ungiven in order to win, and hopefully by that time you will have put yourself into a position where you  Counter it.  Also, you have cards that are really good against them like Tormond's Crypt, and Disenchant for their inevitable Pithing Needles.  It isn't an easy match up, but it is nonetheless winnable. Patience is a virtue in this match up and 3cc players who take their time and force the game to go late get rewarded with the W.

[Pave]

Also, if you were particularly concerned about Chalice for two, there are two Cunning Wishes in the deck, it would be very easy to devote one sideboard slot to cards like Chain of Vapor, Rushing River, Rebuild, or any other instant that removes Artifacts that costs one or three.

I was confronted with Chalice for 2 the other day and I destroyed it by casting Disenchant then via Cunning Wish using Stifle on the Chalice's triggered ability.  That is sufficient recourse, I believe.  No other slot need be devoted.

[Aaron]

Also, if you were particularly concerned about Chalice for two, there are two Cunning Wishes in the deck, it would be very easy to devote one sideboard slot to cards like Chain of Vapor, Rushing River, Rebuild, or any other instant that removes Artifacts that costs one or three.

I was confronted with Chalice for 2 the other day and I destroyed it by casting Disenchant then via Cunning Wish using Stifle on the Chalice's triggered ability.  That is sufficient recourse, I believe.  No other slot need be devoted.

You revived this thread to say that? Are you joking? Making 3-for-1 trades against Chalice is pretty much a fantastic way to lose the game. 

[forests failed you]

Also, if you were particularly concerned about Chalice for two, there are two Cunning Wishes in the deck, it would be very easy to devote one sideboard slot to cards like Chain of Vapor, Rushing River, Rebuild, or any other instant that removes Artifacts that costs one or three.

I was confronted with Chalice for 2 the other day and I destroyed it by casting Disenchant then via Cunning Wish using Stifle on the Chalice's triggered ability. That is sufficient recourse, I believe. No other slot need be devoted.

You revived this thread to say that? Are you joking? Making 3-for-1 trades against Chalice is pretty much a fantastic way to lose the game.

First of all it is only a 1 for 2, because the Wish gets the Stifle.  Second of all being able to find a techy way in your deck to NOT LOSE THE GAME ON THE SPOT, is pretty savage.  Kudos you Pave, you make us Keeper players proud!

[MoxMonkey]

Other than the savage ability to use cunning wish would Suppression field be a good main board or Side board card that could make 3CC more competitive.  It hurts CS like no ones business and if CS is a bad match up would a couple of these be able to swing the match.  Without Red you don't have Gorilla Shaman so only your waste would be effected.  is this a good side board or main board card in a 3CC build?  Anyone test it in any other deck other than stax.

[Aaron]

Also, if you were particularly concerned about Chalice for two, there are two Cunning Wishes in the deck, it would be very easy to devote one sideboard slot to cards like Chain of Vapor, Rushing River, Rebuild, or any other instant that removes Artifacts that costs one or three.

I was confronted with Chalice for 2 the other day and I destroyed it by casting Disenchant then via Cunning Wish using Stifle on the Chalice's triggered ability. That is sufficient recourse, I believe. No other slot need be devoted.

You revived this thread to say that? Are you joking? Making 3-for-1 trades against Chalice is pretty much a fantastic way to lose the game.

First of all it is only a 1 for 2, because the Wish gets the Stifle.  Second of all being able to find a techy way in your deck to NOT LOSE THE GAME ON THE SPOT, is pretty savage.  Kudos you Pave, you make us Keeper players proud!

I'm not debating that it was a good move on the spot, but I contest that it is "sufficient recourse". Wish -> Chain of Vapor is much more elegant and easy to pull off. One cannot expect to pull off the above trick every time.

[forests failed you]

No doubt, clearly it is.  But c'mon give the man props on his savage play.

I will seriously ponder this Supression Field business and post my thoughts tomorrow after I test with my play group tonight.
What do you guys think?  How does a revised 3cc list look with either MD or SB Fields?

[Pave]

Wish -> Chain of Vapor is much more elegant and easy to pull off.

It is certainly easier and more efficient, but I contest that it is more elegant.  Furthermore, the Chain of Vapor solution also requires that you have a counter in hand for when they simply play that Chalice for 2 again.  Stifle may be 'sufficient' recourse, though not optimal, simply because it is A solution.  There are SO MANY things for Keeper to deal with today that devoting an entire sideboard slot to one play in one match-up in game 1 (post-board you have Energy Flux, say) when you already have A solution at hand may be a stretch.

The real problem for 3cc seems to me that it has to beat Stax at one extreme and Gifts at the other.  Against Stax it has to protect a vulnerable mana base and remove threats.  Against Gifts it has to win counter wars.  Slaver seems to fall in the middle and if only for that reason is easier to beat - you have more cards that are good against it: Swords and Duress are both good, for instance. 

Duress is bad against Stax because they can weld in whatever you hit.  Could maindeck Pithing Needles, in addition to Swords, stop this welding and so redeem maindeck Duress?  (These Needles would also serve to prevent the welding out of one's Colossus, Crucible, Isochron Scepter or whatever, and further protect one's mana base against Wasteland.)  The Gifts match-up would enjoy maindeck Duress, though the added Needles are just as dead as Swords there.

I am trying a Darkblast on my board as a Cunning Wish target - it forever owns Welders and Shamans and any 1/1s in Fish or Aggro.

When I first saw that Suppression Field was white I immediately wondered whether it might be a bomb for 3cc, and AGAINST Stax at that.  But if Stax itself is adjusting to utilise Field, how can 3cc win that fight?  In other match-ups, 3cc can hope for Field to slow down one's opponent to a pace with which it is comfortable.  That is no small thing.  (It is what Duress used to do.)  Can Field serve to slow down Welders, protect one's own mana base (against Wasteland), and even stymie the development of opponents' mana bases (in control mirrors, say)?  Such a use of Field would require a massive change in the composition of 3cc's mana base, however.  At present it is full of fetches and Wastelands.  What would it look like?

I am so (perhaps disproportionately) traumatised by Stax losses that I am trying the following maindeck changes to forcefieldyou's list (beginning this thread):

+1 Masticore
+1 Disenchant
+2 Pithing Needle
+1 Lotus Petal
+1 Tolarian Academy
+1 Flooded Strand

-2 Decree of Justice
-1 Mind Twist
-1 Swords to Plowshares
-2 Wasteland
-1 Polluted Delta


My accompanying board changes are thus:

+1 Darkblast
+1 Vampiric Tutor
+1 Gush
+1 Coffin Purge
+1 Pithing Needle
+2 Sacred Ground

-1 Disenchant
-1 Skeletal Scrying
-1 Tormod's Crypt
-2 Blue Elemental Blast
-2 Energy Flux


These changes will reflect playstyle and meta to some degree.  I am still unsure whether to play Sacred Ground or Energy Flux.  I am a safe player so tend to prefer the first.  (Does Energy Flux pwn where Sacred Ground only buys time?  Is Sacred Ground even a bomb against Uba Stax, which attacks not just your mana base but your draw?)

EDIT: Concluding reflections on Zherbus's final list at http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/9205.html .  This thing beats control.  It can out-control Slaver and Gifts (in both matches side in the Furnaces).  With the Chalices it can beat Tendrils.  It could beat Stax BEFORE IT USED WELDERS.  The above marks an attempt at addressing this.  Those Welders make your Duresses bad.  You can board them all out and bring in both Sacred Grounds and Furnaces, but is there room for all 3 Furnaces and do they do enough?  There is just so much coming at you.  Can Pithing Needle or Darkblast do it?

[Jim Sardonic]

I definitely don't think that the 4 maindeck slots you take up for random crucible lock are worth it. Honestly, if you're in the position where you have a strip, and a crucible on the board, AND it's worthwhile for you to be recurring it on their land every turn rather than them just winning, you're probably in a winning position anyway. Combine that with the fact that many decks nowadays run so many basics that only strip mine is useful, and you end up with lots of dead weight.

Realistically, I think Crucible could be huge in the deck. Not only is it good for fetchlands and strip recursion -- but perhaps it'd be viable to use Gemstone Mines. In a deck that can be very color dependant, I'd think this to be a massive advantage. Between City of Brass and Gemstone mine, with fetches, it shouldn't be hard at all to be at maximum 'mana efficiency'.

[forests failed you]

But with MD Scrying as a primary draw engine, the deck would straight up lose double City of Brass hands.  However Gemstone Mine is an interesting twist.  Do you think the deck can survive if it is randomly losing lands throughout the game from lack of counters.  I mean, ideally you want to ramp up an insane number of lands so that you can draw lots of cards and win every counter war.

[Dozer]

Do you think the deck can survive if it is randomly losing lands throughout the game from lack of counters.

No.

That being said, I think you need either Crucible or Supression Field. I can definitely see a Field-based control deck emerging on the basis of former 3cC-builds. Gemstone Mine might even be an option. But not even with Crucible can I see a true rainbow mana base being used in 3cC. To offset the Mine's drawback, you need a high number of Crucibles and to get them reliably into play -- both conditions are not guaranteed with 3cC. The deck typically taps every single land more than thrice, even if those activations are spread over many turns. A Gemstone Mine might work late-game, though it is not a card I would like to see often.

Think back to the old Underground Paradises that were run in Keeper lists of old. Gemstone Mine was around then, too, but people preferred the Paradise. It was mostly because of BtB, and people tapped their Paradises only when necessary. So holding back a land on the board is definitely possible. One or two Mines might work in theory -- but to tell the truth, I don't like them in 3cC for the same reason that I never liked Lotus Petal in 4cC: they have no staying power. If I play a true control deck, relying on those mana sources means taking an unnecessary risk, especially since City of Brass is available.

Dozer

[Jim Sardonic]

At that same point, however, I think they might be beneficial. It's imperative in this format to last past the first three or so turns, and Keeper has traditionally been one of the best to do just that. Gemstone, in the early turns, will give you the flexibility to cast anything in your hand. Their drawback is problematic, however, even if one or two die -- you won't be missing a land drop towards the midgame. By the time it runs out, you'll ideally be pulling more, or would have already stalled on a land drop anyway. I couldn't realistically expect anyone to keep hands of Cities/Mines -- and I'm not sure I'd even advocate playing both -- but I think that the use of one three times should put you to a point where Crucible is playable, the opponent is 'paused', or you are in control. This isn't a land that you're going to tap every turn, and with the draw built into this deck, CoW shouldn't be terribly hard to find.