~Whcih deck to play~ T1 power, 10-proxie

[FallenOmnipotent]

...Yes, it's another tread asking "Which deck should I play in my meta-game?"

Dreamer's (<--store's name) 10 proxie T1 Power tournement.  Turn out is usally pretty good, I'd guess just under 30 people.

I have most all cards excluding:
4x Mana Drain
4x Bazaar of Bagdad
9x Power 9
1x Library of Alexandria
4x Mishra's Workshop

I do have cards like Berserk, Mana Crypt, Force of Will (ect.)  And please keep in mind, I get 10 proxies.

The meta-game as far as I know:
A good amount of Stax, but most of them Uba Stax[/color]
A handful of Fish[/color] decks.  Most of them are R/U...but there are other varients.
Smaller handful of Mean Deak Gifts[/color] and some TPS[/color].
A couple of Oath[/color] decks.
1-2 of that new affinty combo[/color] t1 deck. ~decklist below~
There was oddly enough, 1 WW deck...

In there previous tournement, the t8 was as followed:

1) Oath[/color] ~Classical, running 4 daze, 0 duress, and Akroma + Spirit of the Night
2) Salvager Combo Oath[/color]
Click here for His tournement report
3-4) B/U Fish[/color] ~Notice the Black
3-4) Uba Stax[/color]
Click Here to veiw Uba Stack's Tournement Report
5-8) New Affinity Combo Thingy[/color]
5-8) Mean Deck Gifts[/color]
5-8) Aggro Workshop[/color]
5-8) R/U Fish[/color]

DECK LISTS:

1) Oath[/color]
4 forbidden orchard
4 island
4 polluted
2 wasteland
strip
underground
tropical
Akroma
Spirit of the night
5 moxes
lotus petal
4 brainstorm
4 impulse
4 force
4 manaleak
4 daze
3 stifle
2 drain
walk, recall
4 oath
gaeas blessing
demonic, vampirirc, mystical
 
Sideboard
3 divert
3 chill
2 groundseal
2 backto basics
2 energy flux
3 oxidize

2) Salvanger Combo Oath[/color]
4 strand
4 orchard
2 city
strip
underground
tropical
volcanic
scrubland
island
5 mox, crypt, lions eye, lotus, petal
pyrite
phrexian furnace
engineered exp
collossus
4 brainstorm
4 force
2 impulse
tinker
recall, walk
hurkyls recall
mystical
2 pyroblast
salvagers
balance, regrowth
krosan reclamation
4 oath
3 duress
yawgwill, vampiric, demonic
 
Sideboard
woodripper
pristine
tormods
ray of revelation
rackruin
stp
gaes blessing
2 wasteland
claws of gix
iridescent angel
sealcleansing
salvagers
pyrite
gemstonemine

3) B/U Fish[/color]
2 swamp
3 island
polluted
4 strand
4 wasteland
4 factory
4 underground
library of alex
2 cloud
4 mesmeric fiend
2 ninja deep
2 rootwater thief
2 daze
3 duress
2 nullrod
4 standstill
4 force
4 hatchling
vamp, lotus, recall, demonic, walk, will
crucible

Sideboard
3 energy flux
3 diabolic edict
rootwater thief
misdirection
nullrod
cabal therapy
crucible
2 jitte
cranial extraction
rushing river

4) Uba Stax[/color]
4 welder
2 shaman
2 solemn
2 duplicant
1 titan
karn
4 smokestack
3 ubamask
3 crucible
3 nullrod
wheel of fortune
trinishpere
4 chalice
5 mountain
4 workshop
4 bazaar
barbarian ring
academy
lotus, 5 mox, crypt, vault, solring, stripmine
4 wasteland

Sideboard
3 heretic
3 rack and ruin
2 maze
ubamask
2 jesters cap
2 lavadart
triskelion
duplicant

5) NEW AFFINITY COMBO THINGY[/color]
4 workshop
4 city of brass
2 forbidden orchard
1 academy
1 ancient tomb
lotus, crypt, vault, 5 moxen, sol ring
chromatic sphere
conjurerers bauble
talisman of dominance
4 welder
4 metalworker
4 myr retriever
2 gorilla shaman
frogmite
4 skullclamp
3 genesis chamber
2 steelshapers gifts
recall, walk, twister
echoing truth
trinisphere
tinker
klarkclan ironworks
lightning greaves
wheel of fortune
demonic, vampiric,
memry jar

Sideboard
3 seal of cleansing
2 rack and ruin
2 oxidize
2 pithing needle
2 tormod's crypt
Yawgmoths will
genesis chamber
myr enforcer
echoing truth

6) MD Gifts[/color]
lotus, 5 moxen, solring, vault, lotus petal, mana crypt
4 mana drain
4 force
3 misdirection
4 brainstorm
4 merchant scroll
4 gifts ungiven
1 burning wish
rebuild
echoing truth
mystical
fact
tutor
colossus
walk, ancestrall, yawg will, tinker
recoup
academy
4 polluted
3 underground
2 valcanic
1 snowcovered island
2 island
2 flooded

Sideboard
4 duress
3 pithing needle
coffin purge
chain of vapor
stifle
echoing ruin
tendrils
REB
pyroclasm
pyroblast

7) Aggro Workshop[/color]
4 welder
4 juggernaut
4 thirst
3 brainstorm
4 chalice
2 crucible
3 triskelion
karn
trinishpere
walk, ancestrall, tinker
titan
mystical
duplicant
4 workshops
4 volcanic
1 snowcovered island
4 wasteland
stripmine
5 moxen, lotus, solring, crypt, vault
2 delta
2 flooded
academy

Sideboard
3 REB
3 rack and ruin
2 tormods
3 eon hub
2 shaman
crucible
duplicant

8) U/R Fish[/color]
4 grim lavamancer
4 spiketail hatchling
3 fire/ice
3 standstill
4 factory
4 lightning bolt
4 force
4 shaman
2 stifle
4 wasteland
misdirection
4 ninja deep
mox ruby
4 volcanic
ancestrall
3 island
mountain
3 flooded
2 polluted
2 daze
lotus, sapphire
stripmine

Sideboard
fire/ice
2 rack and ruin
4 REB
3 tormods
3 echoing truth
2 waterfront bouncer

IN THE TOURNEMENT BEFORE THE PREVIOUS ONE[/color]
Top 8 looked like this:
1) Uba Stax
2) Meandeck Gifts
3) Oath Salvagers
4) Reflection 5/3
5) Wdragon.dec 
6) WTF 
7) Wdragon.dec
8) Meandeck Gifts

Here's the lists:

1st-2nd place

Uba Stax [/color]

4 smokestack
4 chalice
4 goblin welder
4 uba mask
3 crucible
3 null rod
2 duplicant
2 solemn simulacrum
1 trinisphere
1 shaman
1 sundering
1 karn
1 wheel of fortune
5 moxen, mana crypt, sol ring, lotus, mana vault
5 mountain, 4 bazaar, 4 wasteland, 4 workshop, 1 Academy, 1 riftstone portal, 1 stripmine ,
SIDEBOARD
4 lava dart
3 Viashino Heretic
2 Duplicant
3 Orb of Dreams
2 Maze of Ith
1 Triskelion


1st-2nd Place

Meandeck Gifts[/color]

Lotus, 5 Moxen, Sol ring, Mana Vault, Lotus Petal,
4 Mana Drain
4 Force
3 Misdirection
4 Brainstorm
4 Merchant Scroll
4 Gifts Ungiven
1 Burning Wish
1 Rebuild
1 Echoing Truth
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Fact
1 Tutor
1 Colossus
1 Timewalk
Ancestrall
Yawg will
Tinker
Recoup
Academy
4 Polluted Delta
3 underground sea
2 Volcanic island
1 snowcovered island
2 island
SIDEBOARD
Tendrils
Mindtwist
2 Pyroclasm
2 Rack and Ruin
Coffin purge
2 Lava Dart
Spawning pit
Fire/Ice
Chain of Vapor
Deep Analysis
Red Blast
Pyroblast


3rd-4th Place

Reflection 5/3 [/color]

4 Welder
4 Juggernaut
2 Triskelion
1 Titan
Razormane
Karn
Duplicant
Shaman
Lotus, 5 moxen, solring
4 Chalice
2 Crucible
Trinisphere
4 thirst
3 brainstorm
Ancestrall, Walk
Tinker
Mystical tutor
4 workshop
4 wasteland
4 volcanic
2 polluted
2 flooded
Academy
Stripmine
Snowcovered island
SIDEBOARD
Triskelion
Duplicant
2 shaman
Crucible
3 red blasts
3 rack and ruin
2 tormods
1 aether spellbomb
Extract

3rd-4th Place

Oath Salvagers [/color]

LED
4 Force
Balance
3 Duress
5 moxen, lotus
Ancestrall, walk
2 Salvagers
2 thirst
2 rushing river
3 impulse
Intuition
4 oath
2 pyrite bomb
4 brainstorm
Seal of cleansing
Gaes blessing
Lotus petal
Blueblast
Tinker
Phyrexian furnace
4 orchard
3 flooded
Polluted
Volcanic
Tundra
Underground
Tropical
Island
Plains
2 city
SIDEBOARD
Red blast
2 chain of vapor
Mana leak
Stripmine
Damping matrix
Flametoungue
Platinum
Ancient hydra
Akroma
3 arcane laboratory


5th-8th Place

WDragon [/color]

3 Duress
3 ntuition
4 force
Walk
2 necromancy
Tutor
2 limduls vault
4 animate
Recall
Vampiric
Dance of the dead
2 stifle
4 mox no pearl
Mana crypt, lotus
Triskelion
Rebuild
4 Squee
4 Worldgorger
1 witness
Rifstone
Tropical
Island
Swamp
4 polluted
Flooded
Bayou
4 underground
4 Bazaar
SIDEBOARD
3 Pernicious
2 Xantid
Verdant
Triskelion
Titan
Rebuild
2 coffin purge
Ray of revelation
3 chalice

Wdragon 

3 Worldgorger
Ambassador Laquatas
Recall, Timewalk
2 Intuition
2 cunning
3 brainstorm
3 stifle
3 deep analy
4 force
1 tutor
2 necromancy
3 duress
4 animate
3 dance of
Sapphire, jet, emerald, solring, lotus, mana crypt
4 Bazaar
4 polluted
2 bayou
2 tropical
4 underground
Island
Swamp
SIDEBOARD
Dance of the
2 necromancy
Worldgorger
2 pernicious
4 xantid
Stroke of
Vampiric
Stifle
Oxidize
Entomb

WTF

4 Meddling
4 wild mongrel
3 ninja of deep
4 basking
4 standstill
4 chalice
4 aethervial
4 force
3 jitte
Timewalk, ancestrall
Sapphire, emerald, lotus
4 wasteland
4 flooded
Polluted
2 island
2 tundra
Stripmine
3 tropical
4 factory
SIDEBOARD
3 kira glassspinner
3 blue blast
3 ray of revelation
2 tormods
4 oxidize

Meandeck Gifts

4 brainstorm
4 force
3 duress
4 gifts
4 merchant scroll
Burning wish
Recoup
Colossus
Yawg will
Tutor
Vampiric
Mystical
Ancestrall, walk,
Rebuild
Tinker
3 misdirection
Fire/ice
Fact
5 moxen, lotus, solring, mana vault, mana crypt, lotus petal
LAND
Academy
3 polluted
2 flooded
3 underground
3 volcanic
3 island
SIDEBOARD
3 pyroclasm
2 rack and ruin
Boseiju
Tendrils
Duress
Eye of nowhere
2 pithing
Engineered explosives
Pyroblast
Red blast
Engineered plague[/color]


PS. If anyone knows more about the meta, post and I'll edit it on. Thanx.

[Disburden]

7) Reg. Stax[/color]
4 welder
4 juggernaut
4 thirst
3 brainstorm
4 chalice
2 crucible
3 triskelion
karn
trinishpere
walk, ancestrall, tinker
titan
mystical
duplicant
4 workshops
4 volcanic
1 snowcovered island
4 wasteland
stripmine
5 moxen, lotus, solring, crypt, vault
2 delta
2 flooded
academy

Sideboard
3 REB
3 rack and ruin
2 tormods
3 eon hub
2 shaman
crucible
duplicant

How is this stax without Smokestack, Tangle wire, or Sphere of resistance?

[FallenOmnipotent]

How is this stax without Smokestack, Tangle wire, or Sphere of resistance?

...Srry? I fied it for you...

[Purple Hat]

I'd probably play either dragon or rector trix in that meta, but I'm biased about dragon and I like trix too much.  I don't know if it's still around the SCG archives somewhere but if you look at Smennen's original stax primer he notes that the reason he put 4 blood moon in his board was that trix could go land, mox, mox, and win on turn three even if stax had turn one sphere, turn two smokestack.  Dragon can do the same thing only it does it more often.  only having to ever play one spell to win is tech vs stax and bazaar on your side of the table makes uba mask not so good.

Hale

[FallenOmnipotent]

What do you guys think about Aggro Workshop?

How are it's match-ups vs. Mean Deak Gifts? TPS? Control Slaver?

[forests failed you]

I LOVE CONTROL SLAVERY!!!!!!!!  and I think that the deck is absolutely savage.  The problem with the deck is that it is easy to play, but extremely difficult to play well.  Most people can figure out how to Slaver their opponent, however there are so many built in plays and decsions that can come up especially when the Slaver player is losing that are easy to misplay.  For instance, yesterday I was walking around after one of my rounds with Windfall (who is also a fairly adept Slaver player) and watching matches, and almost every single time we would observe a Slaver match we would see mistakes being made (even at the top tables).  They wern't big mistakes, but subtle ones that make or break games. 

I would recomend playing Slaver, because it is actually insane, but I would advise you to test the living shit out of it, and then test it some more until you know all of the ins and outs of your deck.  A good way to know that you understand how your deck works is to be able to rattle the contents of the cards off the top of your head (including Sb) as easily as having a conversation.  When you get to that point, you know that you can be fairly efficient with Slaver, because in any given situation you will be able to figure out what your outs are, and what cards you need to be looking for, as well as the chances of finding them.

That is my advice about Slaver, it is insane but you have to know the deck inside and out.

[Anusien]

Is it just me, or does Vial WtF with Chalices seem like it would be very good in that field?  Chalice is very good against almost every deck you can expect, and you get Mongrels + Jitte to out-aggro the other Fish decks.  Against the Fish decks, you have Chalices, Jittes and random lands to tap down, because you can lean on Vial.  Also, Kiras will really help out against the random Triskelion/Duplicant, and players in this area are skimping on Pyroclasms.

First, I'd cut the Ninja of the Deep Hours in whatever list you're using for Rootwater Thief.  This will make your deck better against the combo decks you're likely to face because games will go quickly, and Ninja is slow but powerful.  Thief is faster and better against decks that rely on 1-2 ofs.

Then in your sideboard I'd have something like:
Plains, Tundra, 3x Ray of Revalation (if you feel comfortable with just Tundra, cut a Plains and add a Furnace)
4x Oxidize
2 Rushing River
2 Phyrexian Furnace/Tormod's Crypt
2 Kira

I wouldn't run the UGw version because it will hurt you especially in the mirror match where your actual consistency is lower and you're more vulnerable to strips.  Then again, you get Meddling Mage which is very helpful to you especially against these decks.  I ran Spiketail in that slot, and it helped slow down the Meandeck Gifts and their ilk, but it's probably worse against Stax.  Trade off.  If you run UGw, I'd sideboard an extra Kira and an extra graveyard hate card.

[Marton]

I would probably give a try to a teched out stacker/TNT. Yes, I know the deck has been put in the scrap pile 1-2 year ago, but with 3/4 maindeck root maze, perhaps some pyrostatic pillars even (if lots of combo) and 1/2 gorilla shaman (use welder to weld su-chi to make mana to eat null rod, if that ever becomes an issue).

[Disburden]

I LOVE CONTROL SLAVERY!!!!!!!!  and I think that the deck is absolutely savage.  The problem with the deck is that it is easy to play, but extremely difficult to play well. 

I was going to say either this or 5c stax would be the best beat to proxy up and learn, but that's because I have a strong affinity to these decks. The reason I would lean towards Slaver is all you really need is drains +duals ( and proxy power) to pull it off, where as with Stax you need workshops. I got drains for a little less than 100$ each whereas I got my workshops for 225$ each. That's where the difference comes in. I still play Stax most of the time though since it's my favorite of all time decks. Both decks are flexible and can work around pretty much any meta, where as some other decks you mention may just suffer in different metas. To save up for a year to be able to play Stax or Slaver is much more worth it than playing say...Fish.

EDIT: I should of mentioned that the point of this post was to say that you should proxy a deck you WANT to learn to play very well and master, then buy the cards appropriate for it. I see a lot of people don't do this and just proxy up a new deck once a week. I Think if you proxy a deck and save up for months for the cards you can become savage at the deck, and own some good stuff as the same time.

[fitz712]

CONTROL SLAVER .... i really like the way it runs  and can do very well in most meta's.

[prosbloom225]

CS or stax, it doesn't really matter what the meta is, the decks are pure ownage reguardless of the meta.

[FallenOmnipotent]

So what I'm hearing:

Control Slaver - b/c it's a good deck...just don't f**k up.
Some Kind of Fish Deck[/color] - meta-game call...what you guys think?Aggro Workshop[/color] - b/c it beats Fish and Stax.

When you guys speak of stacks, which varient do you mean?  I can't play uba stax...not enough proxies (4x Bazaar, 4x Workshop, P9).

[prosbloom225]

I play traditional welder stax with tangle wires and thirsts.  Since vroman finally realized that uba stax is weak versus slaver, and now since people have read uba mask, it's not the strong deck it once was.  That leaves the traditional stax(which I believe is the better choice) and cronstax, which gives me the nostalgic feelings of keeper when I play it.

[waSP]

5-8) New Affinity Combo Thingy[/color]

http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/index.php?topic=24073.msg369381#msg369381

That is the Ironworks deck.  Running 1 Frogmite does not make the deck Affinity.

I would definitely play Ironworks.  It's like Control Slaver except not at all the same.  If it wasn't for Oath decks siding Energy Flux, Ground Seal, and Back to Basics, it would have won the last tournament (drawing both Ground Seal and Energy Flux in game 3 was HUGE). 

You'll probably see more Oath hate next month.  People are dumb, though, so maybe run Oath.  Classic Oath.  If you can draw your hate in game 2, I see no reason why you won't win.

I don't think I've ever seen Fish win at that metagame, although I haven't been around for about a year.  I would advise not playing it.  To be quite honest, you aren't good enough.  Even if you were, you probably still wouldn't win.

Remember Oshawa Stompy?

[Mordred]

I agree with Disburden entirely.  Play what you want to play and focus on getting good with the deck.

Try not to look at former T8s and decklists too much, maybe make slight changes based on those lists (sideboard slots & maindeck meta slots), but avoid forcing yourself to play a deck simply becuase its match-ups seem alright based on a top8 from a month ago.

[waSP]

Just playing the same deck every month forces you to endure a long wait before winning anything.  The metagame has to shift so that the deck you're playing is tops.  Then again, you are just hoping that the best deck for the metagame will be a deck you know very well.  You should find a deck that matches your playstyle and stick with it.  Being good is much more important than playing the right deck if you want to do well consistently.  More important than just practicing a deck is playing against opponents of the highest skill level possible.  Try to find a way to get good testing partners consistently.  If this means you have to play in a tournament every week, so be it.  I got good over a period of playing in a weekly tournament over six months.  That led me to winning the Black Lotus tournament way back in 2002 (or was it 2003?) with R/G.  The metagame was full of blue-based control and I played a deck I knew better than just about anyone.  That's what it takes to win, oftentimes.

What's your playstyle?

[Methuselahn]

That Workshop Aggro deck is the one that I piloted at this tourny and at the last, making top 4, losing to the same Uba Stax deck.  Personally, I wouldn't recommend running MWS Aggro right now.  Oath is big right now and 'Shop Aggro isn't the best answer.  It isn't always easy to predict what people will play at Dreamers, especially right after Gencon.  If you remember, last month's top8 had 2 Dragon decks, so anything goes.

The best deck to play is Control Slaver, probably.

[zEphytoes]

hah waSP, you'd have to beat me again....  But yeah, the guy playing oath's draws were AMAZING vs. both of us, so it wasn't cool. I beat you both in the swiss, so I was feelin pretty good... then he went very close to mox, orchard, oath game one.

Uba Stax is not the leading Stax deck in the Dreamers metagame, there were a lot more 5c Stax, and you can expect more of it next month, because of the whole GenCon thing. Last month, there were atleast six 5c stax, and 3 Uba Stax..  The two other people playing Uba Stax though, have no idea how to play it well...  Expect a LOT of regular stax this month.

[FallenOmnipotent]

Well, my playing style is deffinatly not passive control (ie. CS).  I tested it a little bit...and I gotta say...I'm kinda lost.  But b/c of that, I'm gonna keep testing it until i play it desently.  However, I don't think I'll be bringing it to Dreamers...even by then, I'll most likly question my ability to wield it flawlessly. 

I think I'm more of a combo person.  or combo/aggro...I dis-like complete aggro decks (ie. R/G Tempo)

So if I were to chose a deck based upon my playing style, it would be the Ironworks Deck, Aggro Workshop, or Oath. 

I would like to hear more supporting arguements for each of those decks.  I would like to have a 2nd-ary deck b/c, like I said before, I don't think I'll be able to secsessfully play CS.

[Purple Hat]

If you're a combo person play dragon.  it's awesome.  the only thing about playing a list like my 5 color list is that with 8 tutors and bazaar you have to know what you can afford to pitch, what's in your deck, what you need to set up and so on all the time.  dragon is an easy deck to roll people with but it's also an easy deck to lose to random shit with, playing in the technical matches where you have to set things up right and take care with your orchard tokens and so on can be very difficult.  I think it's the same situation as forcefieldyou described with slaver.  it's easy to make dragon go off...it's just hard to actually make sure that you're gonna win the game when you do.  I think dragon has a good game one against stax, slaver and gifts, then it's just a matter of boarding.  if you predict their board choices correctly and have some good ones of your own available to you you should be able to do well.

Hale

[Disburden]

If you're a combo person play dragon.  it's awesome.  the only thing about playing a list like my 5 color list is that with 8 tutors and bazaar you have to know what you can afford to pitch, what's in your deck, what you need to set up and so on all the time.  dragon is an easy deck to roll people with but it's also an easy deck to lose to random shit with, playing in the technical matches where you have to set things up right and take care with your orchard tokens and so on can be very difficult.  I think it's the same situation as forcefieldyou described with slaver.  it's easy to make dragon go off...it's just hard to actually make sure that you're gonna win the game when you do.  I think dragon has a good game one against stax, slaver and gifts, then it's just a matter of boarding.  if you predict their board choices correctly and have some good ones of your own available to you you should be able to do well.

Hale

I was going to also suggest dragon, since it's my favorite combo deck. I think the problem with telling someone that doesn't own power to proxy and play dragon is that it requires some amount of starting skill to succeed, such as stack knowledge/priority knowledge, etc. You and DicemanX are probably the best dragon players I know of, so you don't have those problems but if someone decided to just proxy and play dragon I can see them failing terribly with play mistakes, especially in games 2-3 where your opponent can side in hate. That's one of the reasons I don't play Dragon too often, I just can outright suck at it and lose a lot of the time where I should've won. I think draining your opponent and slaving them is a lot easier to achive for someone that want's to start out on a deck that can be more rewarding over time. If you owned Workshops I would totally say to play stax, either Cron's version or Chang's version (I think Chang's is a lot easier to opperate).


Nick

[FallenOmnipotent]

Wow...so I have a pretty handsome list of decks to choose from:

• Dragon.dec
• Control Slaver
• Welder STAX

~ is the proper name for this 5c STAX? or is that diff?
[li]Ironworks[/li] ~I would like to hear some comments on this deck, is it just too new?  My testing with it shows it to be highly resiliant against most forms of hate...I've been haveing trouble with "chalice for 2" though.
[li]Oath[/li] ~It's a solid and easy deck to play.
[/list]

[FallenOmnipotent]

Oh, ad which CS biuld should I play?  Here's a link to the lists of CS @ SCG:
Click me

[Darkmage]

it's easy to make dragon go off...it's just hard to actually make sure that you're gonna win the game when you do.  I think dragon has a good game one against stax, slaver and gifts, then it's just a matter of boarding.  if you predict their board choices correctly and have some good ones of your own available to you you should be able to do well.

Hale

How can you go off and fail to make sure you win?  At that point don't you just win?  Also, I don't think dragon's game one against gifts is good, I find it to be about fifty-fifty (which isn't bad, but I wouldn't list it as a reason to play the deck).  The only reason I'm pointing it out is because it's the only game one I've tested extensively.

[Disburden]

Oh, ad which CS biuld should I play?  Here's a link to the lists of CS @ SCG:
Click me

If I were to play slaver I would play the versions with four Thrists for knowledge and no intuition AK engine. I prefer those builds. It's also the version without Duress maindecked so you only need two Underground sea for a steadier mana base.

Also there are two versions of 5c stax, Cron's version without welders and maindecked In the eye of chaos, etc; and the other version which Chang used to win Gencon (this uses four welders, tangle wire, and thirst for knowledge as a draw engine).

 I prefer Roland Chang's.

Beware of what I said about Dragon earlier.

[Purple Hat]

I don't think dragon dominates gifts game one but I think it's in your favor.  you play a much stronger draw engine and are slightly faster on average. that's what I've seen anyway.

I'm flattered that people think I'm one of the best dragon players around, I've been playing the deck for a while so it's nice to hear.  I would say that control slaver also has a big problem between the "I can do the basics" and "I can win big tournaments" levels.  Dragon requries you to play around specific hate.  Control slaver requires you to be able to play your opponent's deck well enough to wreck them in a lot of different situations as you sometimes don't have the ability to set up a slave lock.  the point is that playing any major type one deck at this point and winning a tournament requires enough familiarity/play skill with the deck that you can't just walk in and play something.  If you want to learn to play something I think that Dragon is a good choice, but if you're already comfortable with something I think that you should go with that.

I don't want to highjack this thread and talk about the intracacies of playing dragon but there are a lot of ways that you can cast animate dead, target worldgorger dragon and not win the game.

Hale

[FallenOmnipotent]

Well I started t1 playing budjet dragon (Basicly the ABS biuld with Blue for Intuition/Force of Will/Lim-Dul's Vault).  I was playing Purple Hat's build (I'm running Witness + Hellkite as my win instead) yesturday and I'm quite comfortable with it.  The hardest thing for me, however, is desiding when to mulligan, and when not to.  And I also found it problematic when I draw glimmervoid in my begining hand as one of 1/2 mana sources.  (I'm running Witness + Hellkite ATM instead).  And like Purpple hat said, Dragon.dec dies to LD anyways...   ...but with STAX (and alota other decks) running 4x Wastelands 1x Strip mine, losing my Bazaars REALLY hurt...not to mention they get the crucible occatinaly as well.

I'm also very comfortable with Oath...to be honest, I don't see many ways you can mess up playing it.  Also, it has enough counter-spells to cover up your occatinal mistakes.

So basicly, if I were to play one of these 2 decks, which do you think would perform better.  2 tournements ago, 2 Dragon.dec made t8, last tournement, 2 oath made t8...

...which, in general, has the better match-up vs. STAX? Control Slaver?


EDIT:I was just thinking again, and was wondering why was Aggro Workshop eliminated from the list.  I believe the reason was that it does not have a great match-up vs. Oath.  But aren't the chalices and the seal of cleansings sufficent?  Or does Oath just counter too much?

[FallenOmnipotent]

Ok so I've limited my decks down to:
Oath
Dragon
Aggro Workshop
CS

I've desided against playing STAX because the meta will mostly be stax, in which case in the mirror match, the result will depend on luck and skillz.  Luck being an uncontrolable factor, it comes down to skill.  I don't think I'm a flawless player at any deck and I don't play test like crazy...usually...but regardless, even if I was a fairly good player, assuming my opponent is too, it would be a 50/50 game.  Dependent on luck.

Why is Aggro Workshop such a bad deck for the meta-game right now?  It beats stax (to what i hear) and it does ok against oath right?  It has chalice and Seal...  What's so bad about it?

...As for CS...I'm still having troubles with it ='(...

And can anyone think of any reasons to play dragon over oath or vise-versa?  I want to eliminate of of them, but I don't know which.

[Methuselahn]

Aggro Workshop doesn't have much game versus Oath decks.  I don't play white in my Shop Aggro deck, so I don't know about Seal of Cleansing.  Chalice is an unreliable solution to oath.  You have to get 4 mana and the card, AND you have to resolve it before they go  Mox, Orcard, Oath, which is hard sometimes.  It's a hard fight.  Workshop Aggro has been known to beat Stax, yes, but Uba Stax, with it's Bazaar card drawing is also much harder than the other stax matchups.

Play what you know may be the best advice.

[Darkmage]

I don't want to highjack this thread and talk about the intracacies of playing dragon but there are a lot of ways that you can cast animate dead, target worldgorger dragon and not win the game.

In such a situation, is it ever the right play to cast the animate dead?