Control Slaver; Card quality choices

[Sexy_Rector]

Hi,  I am very new to the T1 scene and even newer to TMD.  I have looked through many different deck lists from the most recent t1 events and it appears as though Control Slaver is a very relaible deck as it has posted some solid results. 

Here is just a List I copied from SCG recent power nine tournament

 Control Slaver
A Vintage deck, by Jim Erlinger
4th place at a StarCityGames Power 9 Tournament tournament in Chicago, Illinois, United States on 2005-07-31
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Maindeck:

Artifacts
1 Black Lotus
1 Crucible Of Worlds
1 Jester's Cap
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring

Artifact Creatures
1 Duplicant
1 Pentavus
1 Triskelion

Creatures
4 Goblin Welder

Instants
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Brainstorm
4 Force Of Will
2 Intuition
4 Mana Drain
1 Mystical Tutor
4 Thirst For Knowledge
1 Vampiric Tutor

Legendary Artifacts
1 Mindslaver

Sorceries
2 Deep Analysis
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Yawgmoth's Will

Artifact Lands
1 Seat Of The Synod

Basic Lands
1 Island

Lands
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Strip Mine
2 Underground Sea
4 Volcanic Island

Legendary Lands
1 Tolarian Academy

Snow-Covered Basic Lands
1 Snow-covered Island

Sideboard:
1 Sundering Titan
3 Arcane Laboratory
2 Echoing Truth
1 Pyroblast
3 Rack And Ruin
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Pyroclasm
 
Since I am very new to the format I am confused about a lot of choices.  I really just hope that the people here are patient enough to explain some of this stuff to me.  Why does it run one snow covered island? Is the jester's cap just for deck's like gifts and oath?  Why no DSC?  Is combo prevalent enough to warrent 3 arcane labs in the board [ I have never actually played in a tournament but I do not see TPS or other combo decks place solid results in the top 8 oftournaments].  Do you all have any suggestions on what direction to take this deck in? I do not really like the Deep Analysis in the deck any suggestions for replacement? .  Why no mana vault?  How is this deck's match up's versus [what seems] to be the other most prevalent deck, stacks?  Would you all recommend this deck to someone who has very little type 1 experience [ I have played lots of type 2/1.5 and extended but never a single tournament round of type 1].

Any help is appreciated.

Thanks

[Koeka]

you should take a look at the build that placed 5th @ gencon, and work further with that, C.o.w isn't good in the deck, pentavus gives you enough turns to lock your opponent out of the game.

[PipOC]

I don't know this for a fact, but I'd assume that the snow covered island is there to fool the opponent into thinking that you're playing gifts, not CS.  Jester's cap is there against any deck that runs very few win conditions, such as stax, gifts, oath, CS etc.  It's damaging against most decks in the format except fish, which runs large amounts of creatures.  DSC is (usually) eschewed because the deck lacks the ability to throw a few time walks down along with colossus, leaving it open to welders or other removal, it also dilutes your draws, but that's a fairly minor reason.  Deep Analysis is included as a draw engine to go along with intuition, but accumulated knowdledge is also effective, but that would take in the direction of "Goth" Slaver which, unlike normal control slaver, plays out like a yawgmoths  will combo deck, meant to play out welders as counter bait, and culminate in a large yawgmoths will that attempts to create a lock.  This particular approach has generally fallen out of favor, because while it has a superior mirror matchup, it is weaker against the rest of the field.  Mana vault  is excluded because of 8 necessary artifact accelerants it would be the weakest.  While I'm sure it will be disputed, Control slaver has an even to favorable matchup against stax, in my experience.  I wouldn't suggest Control Slaver in particular, but for learning the fundamentals of Type 1 play, I'm sure it would be a fine one to learn to use drains with.  I personally prefer to teach newcomers with stax, because of it's unforgiving nature.

[Moxlotus]

I would agree to look at the 5th place deck from GenCon for a more standard Control Slaver build.  1 Snow-Covered Island is run to be searched out with Gifts if needed, or to trick your opponent for the first few turns.

Jester's Cap is an option for "high cc artifact".  Usually there are 4-6 in a deck.  Options gthat I have seen used are Mindslaver, Pentavus, Trike, Dupe, Sundering Titan, Jester's Cap, Nev's Disk, Crucible.

Vault isn't usually used because it doesn't stick around.  It is a 1-shot source that gives you colorless mana.  Not good.

Deep Analysis and Intuitions are usually not used.  Often 1 Gifts Ungiven is used and some builds include a Skeletal Scrying or 2.

It depends on the metagame on how much combo hate to bring in.  Some use Arcane Lab, others use Chalice or Sphere of Resistance because those come out a turn sooner. 

I can't comment very much on the Stax matchup because I am not an expert with either Stax or CS, but I'd imagine that it is pretty close to even and comes down to skill and your SB.

[Null Rob]

Would you all recommend this deck to someone who has very little type 1 experience [ I have played lots of type 2/1.5 and extended but never a single tournament round of type 1].

NO.  If you are looking for a deck to take to your first T1 tournament, it should ABSOLUTELY not be Control Slaver.  While it is relatively easy to understand the basic concept of Control Slaver, it is one of, if not the the most difficult deck(s) in the format to play well.  I would suggest a deck such as Oath or Workshop Aggro to take to your first few tournaments until you have a better understanding of the metagame.  

That said, I will attempt to address some of your other questions.  First, there are 2 reasons why DSC is not run in this deck.  1) You cannot weld it in from your graveyard, so it does not have very good synergy with Welder or Thirst for Knowledge (you discard it and it is shuffled back in).  2) Opposing Welders will weld out your Colossus, giving you back whatever artifact you sacrificed to pay the additional cost of Tinker.  If you play somewhere where there is a lot of Fish but no decks running Welders, DSC could be added to the maindeck.  

I don't really know why this deck runs 1x Snow-Covered Island, but most Slaver decks should run one of them to support 1x Gifts Ungiven.  This can be one of the most game-breaking cards in the deck, and there is no reason not to run one copy of it.  It can also act as a double Entomb (search for only 2 cards and both go to your graveyard).  

I would agree with Pip that this deck has a slightly favorable matchup against Stax, because you run your own Goblin Welders.  Resolving one, and keeping theirs off the table, is a good way to win game one, and after boarding, a well-timed Rack and Ruin can wreck Stax as well.

I can understand why you don't like the Deep Analyses in the maindeck...and it's really simple.  There are better cards out there to run in their place.  1x Gifts Ungiven should be in the maindeck, and lately, lists with Gorilla Shamans maindeck have been performing very well.  They are great against almost every deck out there, but the matchup where they really shine (obviously besides the mirror match) is, believe it or not, Fish.  You can pay 3 to eat their Aether Vials, 1 to eat their Chalice for 0, or 5 to eat an Umezawa's Jitte...if you can keep these 3 artifacts off the table you will find that Fish becomes a VERY favorable matchup.

Without Deeps, Intuition becomes a card that's decent at best, and can't be used as reliable card draw, so I would cut them for 1 Fact or Fiction and 1 maindeck bounce spell, probably Echoing Truth.

I would also cut the Crucible of Worlds and the 2 lands that go with it (seat of the synod and strip mine).  It's always been a "win-more" card in my opinion, and as for the 2 lands, I would much rather have another Fetch and another Basic Island, so that you are less vulnerable to Wastelands.  Replace the Cruible with another Mindslaver.  I also personally find Duplicant to be sub-par, and I think Sundering Titan's CIP ability is just insane right now, but I'm sure there will be people who disagree with this and would rather have Duplicant.  Unless you see a lot of Oath around you, I would recommend swapping the Duplicant for a Titan.  

If you really want to play Control Slaver, test A LOT.  The more you play any deck the better you get at it, and the less play mistakes you will make.  This is especially true with Slaver.  And keep in mind that most T1 decks do broken things.  Against almost every deck, one or 2 activations of Mindslaver should be enough to win you the game.

[Mordred]

As a newcomer to Type 1, I would say Control Slaver would be a fine deck to play.  A lot of people seem to believe that, "Control Slaver is an easy deck to play, but a very hard to deck to play well."

The build of Control Slaver you want to play really depends on what decks you expect to play against.  Like most decks, there isn't one "perfect" build, instead there are builds that do well in the field they are played.  Just look at the Decklists for Control Slaver in the Vintage Championship Top 8, they were modified to do well in the anticipated environment.

I would suggest starting with a build of Control Slaver that is more built just to do its own thing, rather than a meta-gamed version.  Basically find a list without cards like Mainboard Rack and Ruin, Masticores, or Jesters Cap, and learn to play that deck to its fullest.  Learn to do well in match-ups against other Drain decks by saying things like, "At the end of your first mainphase..." or, "Declare my attack phase, second mainphase..."

Once you start to feel confident in how to play Control Slaver to its fullest, then I'd say it's time to look at how people have tweaked the deck to have better match-ups against other decks.

On the topic of the inclusion of Crucible lock in CS:  I've played with and without it, and I would have to say that it's worth the slot in the deck.  Not only is it a hardcastable lock component, but it offers more flexability to the deck (in the form of early game Stip Mine soft-lock.)  Espeically for a newcomer to Type 1 and CS I would recommend playing with Cruicible in Slaver.

Hope this helps  

[Komatteru]

As a newcomer to Type 1, I would say Control Slaver would be a fine deck to play.  A lot of people seem to believe that, "Control Slaver is an easy deck to play, but a very hard to deck to play well."

I actually agree.  In trying to find a deck for a friend of mine who is inexperienced in Vintage, I was unable to come up with an easier deck that was still competitive.  Gifts? Stax? Combo?  Nope, all of those are more complicated.  The thing about Slaver is that playing it perfectly is quite difficult, but you can often bumble though it and still win as many matches as you lose, which is good for a newcomer.  Unlike Fish or Oath, you have a lot of firepower, and can match an opponent's brokenness with some of your own, which makes it a good choice for someone who's trying to get into the format.  You don't want to hand a new player a deck like Fish, Oath, or Workshop Aggro, all of which can just lose to bad matches, when you can have them play something that doesn't autolose to anything that isn't too hard to get the basic concepts down of.  It doesn't take a master of a deck to go 2-2 or 3-2, and that's not a terrible preformance for someone new to the format.  It's very encouraging, and offers a glimpse of future success.

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

Just FYI, Mana Vault is absolutely amazing in Slaver, and is a must. A 3 shot of mana will likely win you the game right there. Mana Drain is a one time use of mana, would you cut that? Also, realize that chalice is running rampant in the metagame (oath, stax, fish), and mana vault gives you an out for tinker when they play chalice at 0.

The reason to run slaver right now is because of it's flexibility. There are 55 core cards in the deck, and 5 metagame slots. FIVE. Compare that to Gifts and you'll see why slaver is one of the most flexible decks. I am currently running in those slots 1 Vamp, 1 Echoing truth, 1 Rack and Ruin, 1 Sundering Titan, and 1 Triskelion. You could easily accomodate cards like Gorilla shaman and tormod's crypt if you expect different metagames.

Finally, I HATE the idea of Jester's Cap in the maindeck. It does nothing to help you win the game. Against stax, they can still lock you down and deck you. Against gifts, they can just simply cast a gifts for their win conditions, and against combo, it's way too slow at 4cc. Honestly, when you tinker, how many times do you get the cap? Against control (Non-CS; vs. CS it's a toss up between titan and trisk), I get titan 99% of the time. Against stax I get pentavus 99% of the time, and against combo I get slaver 99% of the time. CS is not a deck that you want to fill up w/ high cc artifacts. That's part of the reason slaver 2 was cut for gifts.

I also advocate slaver for beginning type 1 players. It's relatively easy to play (For the most part, you just sit on drain) and it has those busted draws that win no matter who plays the deck. The power level of slaver is big enough that the deck is forgiving.

Anyways, those are my 2 cents.

-Bob

[Disburden]

Just FYI, Mana Vault is absolutely amazing in Slaver, and is a must. A 3 shot of mana will likely win you the game right there. Mana Drain is a one time use of mana, would you cut that? Also, realize that chalice is running rampant in the metagame (oath, stax, fish), and mana vault gives you an out for tinker when they play chalice at 0.

I don't see the reasoning for cutting Vault either. You can use it to make three colorless which is never useless when trying to cast an artifact beater or Slaver. To cut Vault would be simply retarded, it's one of the best accelerators in the deck!

You need to also see that it's weldable so it's not going to hurt you as much as you think. Plus it helps activate and create the Slaver lock infinite since you can tap, welder in slaver and out vault, etc. 

[Metman]

I'm glad there are others that agree that Mana Vault is a worthy spot in CS.  I have argued on end and usually alone that MV should get play in the deck.  I have actually considered other cheap artifacts including Lotus Petal and Grim Monolith in the deck because it is a very mana intensive deck.  The extra artifacts help fuel the Welder, Academy, and Thirst.  I think that more artifacts should be tested to find out just what an effective number is to run.  Remember that a deck must run a certain number of blue cards to make Force of Will effective; the same should be applied to running Welder, Academy, and Thirst. 

I also agree that CS is a deck that is easily played, although hard to master, by a newbie to the vintage format.  It is also a deck that has good success against many different decks/metegames and would be a great way of learning how to play a proactive control deck.  You have experience playing Magic so it's not as if you are learning the fundemental skills of the game. 

[Lou]

I agree with Bob 100% on the Mana Vault call.  It is a necessary card, for sure.  The fact that it gets around Chalice set for zero is so big when you have an active Welder or a Tinker in hand and you need to drop an artifact.

Crucible is, in my opinion, not a good call.  You shouldn't be to worried about Wastelands, because you run enough basics to wait them out.  If you have a fetch early in the game, and you aren't going to do something busted with red or black mana, and you know they are running Wastelands, please, don't crack it for Volcanic Island or Underground Sea.  This is a control deck, and you have time to wait most decks out.  Also, you are not going to be Crucible/Stripping your opponents.  Strip Mine does not do enough to warrant inclusion in Slaver right now.

I want to hit again on the fact that DSC main in Slaver is not good.  No synergy with the cards you are playing with, and a lot of decks you will be facing have very many answers.  Sundering Titan is a beating against most decks, excluding Stax, and again like Bob said, I Tinker it up probably 99% of the time.  The rest of the time, if I am not ready to Slave you, then Trike comes in.

I don't know that I would say that Slaver has a good match up against Stax.  I think it is about 50/50 against Cron Stax, and probably a little worse against Welder Stax.  Regardless of the statistical probability of beating it, you better be ready to play against it.

[Xman]

Slaver is awesome against stax.  In the last tournament I went to with slaver, I went 2-0, twice, against stax.  The lock I was running was Slaver, Crucibl;e, Welder, Darksteel Citidel.  Against stax when they are trying to pull out a waste lock on you, it really solves a lot of problems I had.

Also, against Stax, depending on the version is the answetr to tinkering out trike or Titan.  I won by getting a trike into play, and watching it work its magic destroying the opponents board and the opponent himself.trike went the distance for me numerous times.

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

How do you not go for Pentavus like 90% of the time vs. stax? It basically makes all their smokestacks/wires/etc. crap against you. Trisk is only good if they run welder. Also, Titan is so ASS vs. stax. Seriously. You lose an artifact mana source and atleast 1 land (stax decks are 5c) for a 3 turn clock that they can easily deal with. It is the first card I board out in the stax matchup.

Also, I'd like to address crucible. I've played both crucible and pentavus, and honestly, both are awesome. But I think for this metagame, pentavus is the right call. He deals with fish, stax, and WS aggro. Crucible is good vs. stax, and such, but it isn't necessarily a win condition. It's also a 2/3-card combo, meaning you have to run multiple copies of gifts/intution, thus cutting down on the number of metagame slots.

Stax is a tricky matchup. It differs tremendously depending on which version you're playing against. Against 5c chromatic stax, the goal should be to develop your manabase and sit on mana drain. You also want to board in echoing truth for all the answers they might have for you. Against uba stax, your welder + trisk ruins them. That deck was meant to put artifacts in the yard and your welders will hurt them more than their welders will hurt you. Also, trisk wrecks their house. since they don't run sphere of resistance or game breaking enchantments, rack and ruin is pretty good in this matchup. Watch out for null rods and shamans though, as those cards can wreck you. Basically, Stax can get the nutz against you and win, but overall, I'd say it's favorable for CS.

-Bob

[Arvid]

I play 4 Duress in my CS, I don't know why not everybody does so.

[elias]

I play 4 Duress in my CS, I don't know why not everybody does so.

CS is primarily Blue for counters and card draw. Red and black are splashed for welders and tutors. Putting in 4 duress might be a strain on the manabase as far as I'm concerned.

Plus turn 1 duress isn't really as good as turn 1 mana drain.

[Moxlotus]

I play 4 Duress in my CS, I don't know why not everybody does so.

Because that means you are fetching out a dual on turn 1 which will get wasted.  That means you won't have drain online by turn 2.

[cosineme]

Plus turn 1 duress isn't really as good as turn 1 mana drain.

that's not really a consideration in these kinds of discussions. the chance you'll have drain mana on turn 1 is slim enough that it doesn't warrant discussion.

on the other hand, it happens considerably more often (2x in fact!) in MD gifts, where they run petal.

[forests failed you]

I am starting to believe that Mana Drain is one of the worst cards in Slaver.  I don't mean this in a sense that Mana Drain isn't an amazing card, because it is.  The reason I am not in love with Drain right now, is that the entire metagame has adapted to beating Drain based decks.  It is hard to get to double blue Mana when it matters against Fish and Stax, because Fish plays Chalice, Wasteland and Aether Vial, and Stax is well, Stax.  Mana Drain is the least flexable card in the deck because it requires a specific set of cirumstances in order to be good.  Whereas the rest of the deck is very playble in all situations. 

Also, Mana Drain is too slow half of the time against Death Long and Belcher to save you from certain death.  I definately don't think that cutting Mana Drains from the maindeck is the right choice right now.  But, I can safely say that some number of Mana Drains are usually the first cards I board out in most non-control match ups.

[Lou]

I am starting to believe that Mana Drain is one of the worst cards in Slaver.  I don't mean this in a sense that Mana Drain isn't an amazing card, because it is.  The reason I am not in love with Drain right now, is that the entire metagame has adapted to beating Drain based decks.  It is hard to get to double blue Mana when it matters against Fish and Stax, because Fish plays Chalice, Wasteland and Aether Vial, and Stax is well, Stax.  Mana Drain is the least flexable card in the deck because it requires a specific set of cirumstances in order to be good.  Whereas the rest of the deck is very playble in all situations. 

Also, Mana Drain is too slow half of the time against Death Long and Belcher to save you from certain death.  I definately don't think that cutting Mana Drains from the maindeck is the right choice right now.  But, I can safely say that some number of Mana Drains are usually the first cards I board out in most non-control match ups.

I am really suprised to hear this.  Sitting on 2 blue is consistently my game plan.  Do you mind mentioning what you side them out for, and for what match ups?

[Null Rob]

Unlike Fish or Oath, you have a lot of firepower, and can match an opponent's brokenness with some of your own, which makes it a good choice for someone who's trying to get into the format. 

While I agree with your take on Fish, I have to strongly disagree with what you say about Oath.  First of all, it is A LOT more common for Oath to just go Orchard, Mox, Oath with 2 counterspells in hand than it is for Slaver to play a turn 1 Tinker (or a turn 1 Welder, Mox turn 2 Thirst) and have both spells resolve.  If a turn 2 Akroma in a deck running 15 counterspells isn't broken, I don't know what is.  Plus, I don't think anyone will disagree that Oath is much simpler to play than Control Slaver. 

You don't want to hand a new player a deck like Fish, Oath, or Workshop Aggro, all of which can just lose to bad matches, when you can have them play something that doesn't autolose to anything that isn't too hard to get the basic concepts down of.

While all of these decks certainly have some bad matchups out there, there are several individual CARDS (as opposed to decks) that Slaver autoloses to WHEN it is being played by an inexperienced player.  Do you think a Slaver player with little to no experience will be able to play around a turn 1 Tormod's Crypt from Fish without having Tinker and FoW backup in their opening hand?  Most likely, the answer is no.  And they almost certainly lose to a turn 2 activation of Jester's Cap unless they happened to have a big creature in their opening grip.  Hell, even an early Gorilla Shaman or 2 Wastelands can be difficult for a new player to overcome. Being able to play around hate with Slaver is something that can only be learned through experience, and there is NO way an inexperienced player will go 2-2 or 3-2 if they have to play against Tormod's Crypt, Lava Darts, Gorilla Shaman, Rootwater Thieves, Wastelands, and Meddling Mages round after round.

I also advocate slaver for beginning type 1 players. It's relatively easy to play (For the most part, you just sit on drain)

This strategy is perfectly fine to relay to a new player if they are going to be facing Fish, Stax, and RG beats all day.  However, if they are paired up against a better player who is also packing Drains (Oath, Gifts, SSB, CS Mirror, Mono-U), they will get absolutely destroyed, and that is a fact.  Again, it takes a great deal of experience for a new player to learn to utilize Mana Drain with the same efficiency as someone who has been playing with and against it for a while.

[TheOrangePet]

IMHO, CS is a good deck for experienced players who are new to the format, but a terrible deck for inexperienced players who are new to the format.

I'm playing CS right now because it has so many meta slots  which allow me to capitalize on the notion that many, if not most, players in a Vintage event these days are net-decking straight lists. In such an environment the best choice is clearly the deck that possesses the greatest number of meta cards while still retaining its original intent. By this thought pattern CS becomes a poor choice for inexperienced and new players who have little to no knowledge of the popular archtypes and their finer workings because they won't be able to profeciently cast their powerful meta cards.

As for card quality, I believe Sundering Titan is counter-intuitive when compared w/the customary CS game plan. You will almost always maintain parity or better when playing Titan, but more often than not it will set back your long-term plans more dramatically than it does your opponents.

The Crucible/Strip issue is one on which I'm currently torn. It certainly has a positive effect on your various Stax matches, but is less spectacular in any other match short of the Welder/Slaver hard lock which can be nearly replicated w/Pentavus alone. I do believe a lone artifact land is still a fine inclusion even if you cut the Crucible/Strip although; this leads me into my next point.

Mana Vault.

This card has been compared before to Mana Drain in acceleration effect. While this is certainly true, it doesn't necessarily translate into the same effect. Mana Drain is clearly a better card as its a permission spell as well, but more importantly, it steals the mana from your opponent instead of producing it yourself. This is a moot point though so I move on. The clearest reasoning that I can see for playing Vault is that it dodges Chalice for 0. A good point indeed, but not a reason to run the card, IMHO. This takes me back to the end of the previous paragraph. When simply looking for a Weldable/Tinkerable mana source that dodges Chalice for 0, a singular artifact land is more effecient in nearly every situation(probably a Darksteel Citadel in todays meta).

Thats all I have in me right now, but I'll be back on this topic soon.

L8R.   

 

[Null Rob]

As for card quality, I believe Sundering Titan is counter-intuitive when compared w/the customary CS game plan. You will almost always maintain parity or better when playing Titan, but more often than not it will set back your long-term plans more dramatically than it does your opponents.

Out of all the points that have been made in this thread, there has not been one that I disagree with more than this.  I won at least 3 games (during a 6-round tournament) as a direct result of having a Sundering Titan in my maindeck instead of Pentavus, and there was not one time throughout the whole tournament when I wished I had played Pentavus instead.  I will grant that Sundering Titan is not very good when you are facing Stax all day long, but against everything else Titan has been nothing short of incredible.  I won game 3 of a tournament match against Outlaw this past weekend because Titan, and not Pentavus, was in my maindeck.  By the way, he was playing Fish, a deck that is supposed to beat Control Slaver way more often than it loses.  However, Sundering Titan can completely swing this matchup in favor of CS.  One CIP effect of Titan, in certain situations, can be even better than a Mindslaver activation.

And as for long-term plans, the long term is certainly not something you should be worried about if you just Welded/Tinkered in a Titan.  You should be concerned with doing whatever you can to protect it for 2 or 3 turns until it can beat down for the win.  It doesn't matter if Titan is the only permanent you are left with on the board if you just Armageddoned your opponent's entire mana base.

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

IMHO, CS is a good deck for experienced players who are new to the format, but a terrible deck for inexperienced players who are new to the format.

I'm playing CS right now because it has so many meta slots  which allow me to capitalize on the notion that many, if not most, players in a Vintage event these days are net-decking straight lists. In such an environment the best choice is clearly the deck that possesses the greatest number of meta cards while still retaining its original intent. By this thought pattern CS becomes a poor choice for inexperienced and new players who have little to no knowledge of the popular archtypes and their finer workings because they won't be able to profeciently cast their powerful meta cards.

As for card quality, I believe Sundering Titan is counter-intuitive when compared w/the customary CS game plan. You will almost always maintain parity or better when playing Titan, but more often than not it will set back your long-term plans more dramatically than it does your opponents.

The Crucible/Strip issue is one on which I'm currently torn. It certainly has a positive effect on your various Stax matches, but is less spectacular in any other match short of the Welder/Slaver hard lock which can be nearly replicated w/Pentavus alone. I do believe a lone artifact land is still a fine inclusion even if you cut the Crucible/Strip although; this leads me into my next point.

Mana Vault.

This card has been compared before to Mana Drain in acceleration effect. While this is certainly true, it doesn't necessarily translate into the same effect. Mana Drain is clearly a better card as its a permission spell as well, but more importantly, it steals the mana from your opponent instead of producing it yourself. This is a moot point though so I move on. The clearest reasoning that I can see for playing Vault is that it dodges Chalice for 0. A good point indeed, but not a reason to run the card, IMHO. This takes me back to the end of the previous paragraph. When simply looking for a Weldable/Tinkerable mana source that dodges Chalice for 0, a singular artifact land is more effecient in nearly every situation(probably a Darksteel Citadel in todays meta).

Thats all I have in me right now, but I'll be back on this topic soon.

L8R.   

 

Have you ever played the deck before? Seriously. Titan is a fucking BEATING right now. Fuck slaving someone when I can nuke their base and kill in 3 turns. Unless there's a welder in play, I almost always go for the titan. The only match where it sucks balls is stax, and you have a favorable matchup there if you don't play like a jack ass. Also, a land to tinker is complete ass. seat is vulnerable to Wasteland, monkey, rod, etc. and Citadel doesn't produce blue. Mana vault doesn't require a land drop so it's actual acceleration. Seriously, mana vault is a must in this deck. It helps you accelerate into those broken plays that just win you the game.

Also, I know Mana drain is different than mana vault. However, the mana boost is quite comparable. Ever drained an irrelevant threat so you could get 3-5 mana on your next turn to set up a huge play?

[Komatteru]

I am starting to believe that Mana Drain is one of the worst cards in Slaver.  I don't mean this in a sense that Mana Drain isn't an amazing card, because it is.  The reason I am not in love with Drain right now, is that the entire metagame has adapted to beating Drain based decks.  It is hard to get to double blue Mana when it matters against Fish and Stax, because Fish plays Chalice, Wasteland and Aether Vial, and Stax is well, Stax.  Mana Drain is the least flexable card in the deck because it requires a specific set of cirumstances in order to be good.  Whereas the rest of the deck is very playble in all situations. 

Also, Mana Drain is too slow half of the time against Death Long and Belcher to save you from certain death.  I definately don't think that cutting Mana Drains from the maindeck is the right choice right now.  But, I can safely say that some number of Mana Drains are usually the first cards I board out in most non-control match ups.

Also, good combo players are generally smart enough to make sure you never to get Drain anything, lest they just hand you the win.

[Koeka]

yes, i have to agree on that, but most of the time players wont play around your drain butt yust play their spells, without duress before it

but if youre an cs player, and the field is full of fish its most of the time better to play controllicore

Posts merged. Please use the edit button on your first post if you feel you have something to add to it. And for god's sake man, fix your spelling. Eleven mistakes in grammar and spelling in those two short sentences.

won't rather than wont
but rather than butt
just rather than yust
you're rather than youre
a CS player rather than an cs player
it's rather than its
and USE FREAKING PERIODS AND CAPS.

- Bram

[PipOC]

but if youre an cs player, and the field is full of fish its most of the time better to play controllicore

Most of the time it would be better to play with pentavus and triskelion since you don't need to throw tons of mana(which fish is always trying to deny you of) on top of a triskelion, and the bus kills attacking fishies all day.

[TheOrangePet]

Have you ever played the deck before? Seriously. Titan is a fucking BEATING right now. Fuck slaving someone when I can nuke their base and kill in 3 turns. Unless there's a welder in play, I almost always go for the titan. The only match where it sucks balls is stax, and you have a favorable matchup there if you don't play like a jack ass. Also, a land to tinker is complete ass. seat is vulnerable to Wasteland, monkey, rod, etc. and Citadel doesn't produce blue. Mana vault doesn't require a land drop so it's actual acceleration. Seriously, mana vault is a must in this deck. It helps you accelerate into those broken plays that just win you the game.

Also, I know Mana drain is different than mana vault. However, the mana boost is quite comparable. Ever drained an irrelevant threat so you could get 3-5 mana on your next turn to set up a huge play?

Nope, never played it before.

Not very serious.

Fuck Slaving someone eh...I'll always Slave over dropping Titan in this deck. I respect your PoV on the matter, but I've played Titan numerous times and haven't been personally impressed with his performance.

And I disagree w/your opinion that the "Stax" match-up is favorable. If you use your meta slots for cards like R+R then you can push it to 50/50 at best. The fact is that nearly every card in their deck is a threat and sometimes you just don't have the right answer before you fall too far behind and get locked up.

Once again, I can respect your opinion on artifact lands, but I certainly advocate Citadel right now and recent/past results will tend to agree either way. Mana Vault isn't a "must" even in the slightest. Its purely optional and such card choices tend to define a persons play style w/whatever deck is in question.  

Yes, I have drained baited spells for tempo alone, but seldomly w/out back-up. Your play style seems almost greedy and very combo-oriented. Remember that CS is the control deck in most matches these days and playing a deck w/so many reactive cards in such a proactive manner almost changes your entire game plan. I never flame, but I do think you should look at this deck from a 3rd-person viewpoint as opposed to juxtaposing it to fit your own play style.

[prosbloom225]

Though control slaver looks relatively easy, and probobly is easier to pilot than stax, the best deck for a newcomer to the format to play is oath.  It's quite cheap in comparison to the other tier 1 decks, and can be more familiar to a newer player who is used to swinging for the kill.  Also the additional counters make the deck more forgiving in that the player can counter the wrong spell and not quite lose.  CS is not only difficult to play because of the counter aspect, but because slaving your opponent isn't always the easiest choice.  You have to find the most destructive way to play your opponents turn, and without taking too much time because CS has looong matches.

[forests failed you]

In response to Lou:

Sitting on two blue is my ideal game plan as well;  Unfortunately, good players playing decks designed to beat Mana Drain decks, like Control Slaver, tend to try and not let you do that.

I usually board out Drains against Fish and Combo because those are the two decks that are specifically designed to make Mana Drain a non-factor.  Most good Fish decks play with Aether Vial and force you to deal with their uncounterable critters instead of letting you sit back and wait for Drain Mana to go broken with.  In that match up I bring in cards that deal with the specific threats that I care about.  Gorilla Shaman, Echoing Truth, and REB against blue white Fish. Plus their Wastelands can help to keep you off dubs blue.

I also board out at least one Mana Drain against fast Combo decks.  I acknowledge that Combo is Slavers truly bad match up and I usually play with lots of board cards to speed me up.  Drain is just too slow to count on as your primary solution to threats in this matchup.  You need zero and one casted responses that you can use on the first turn.  I really like Stifle, Gorilla Shaman, and Tormod's Crypt.  However, I think that Duress is also an excellent sideboard option for Slaver to use against TPS, MeandeckSX, and the like.  However, I did not include Duresses in my GenCon list, as I was expecting a primarily Slaver, Gifts, and Stax Meta.  However, in Ann Arbor Michigan where I play there are a lot of fast combo decks and I usually pack the big D.

[Godot]

Fuck Slaving someone eh...I'll always Slave over dropping Titan in a Drain deck. We're not talking about 7/10, 5/3, or any other form of a Workshop deck here. I respect your PoV on the matter, but I've played Titan numerous times and haven't been personally impressed with his performance.

Winning the control mirror, many times, comes down to winning the mana war.  Dropping a 7/10 threat that takes out 2+ lands and takes out more if they can deal with it will go a long waaaay towards winning the game while a slave can just be a time walk.  Obv, theres a time and a place for each, but with the amount of multicolored control running around Titan is pretty freaking amazing right now.

And I disagree w/your opinion that the "Stax" match-up is favorable. If you use your meta slots for cards like R+R then you can push it to 50/50 at best. The fact is that nearly every card in their deck is a threat and sometimes you just don't have the right answer before you fall too far behind and get locked up.

Stax is def. a favorable matchup and considering this is coming from one of the biggest stax adocates/one of the best stax players in vintage, I think you can believe him.  The versions of stax that are currently en vogue are much more susceptable to the Welders and Trisk in CS than something like Cronstax.  Stax will still win its fair share of games, but with non-retarded play and a good sideboarding plan CS will win the majority of matches.

Once again, I can respect your opinion on artifact lands, but I certainly advocate Citadel right now and recent/past results will tend to agree either way. Mana Vault isn't a "must" even in the slightest. Its purely optional and such card choices tend to define a persons play style w/whatever deck is in question. 

It has very little to do with playstyle and more to do with not sucking.  Pay 1 to play an artifact that accelerates my mana by 2 turns AND dodges Chalice 0 or run Citadel which also dodges Chalice 0 but takes a land drop, doesnt give you blue and is just an incredibly narrow card that does nothing useful outside of getting Welded for something else.

Yes, I have drained baited spells for tempo alone, but seldomly w/out back-up. Your play style seems almost greedy and very combo-oriented. Remember that CS is the control deck in most matches these days and playing a deck w/so many reactive cards in such a proactive manner almost changes your entire game plan. I never flame, but I do think you should look at this deck from a 3rd-person viewpoint as opposed to juxtaposing it to fit your own play style.

At no point does he say that you should be using Drains that aggressively in CS.  Hes giving you an example to show the effect that Mana Vault can have on the game.  RTFP.