September 1st B&R announcement

[prosbloom225]

I would be more concerned with entomb in dragon rather tutoring out strip because dragon just wins with its 2 card combo.  Why give the deck four turn 1 drops that fetch half of their combo.  They already have an arsenal of reanimation effects, I don't think giving them the dragon in the yard on turn one consistently is such a good idea.

[49 Cents]

Entomb should still be restricted.  Giving dragon another fetch for dragon isn't really to helpful to the format.

That's not what everyone should be concerned about with entomb.  Consistently tutoring out a strip lock for B mana and a crucible isn't something I'd look at lightly.  Dragon probably wouldn't use it at all given that most lists don't even run a full set of intuition.

What about Budget Dragon? Entomb is the shit for people who can't afford Bazaar's / Power..

[NastyNate]

What people frequently fail to comprehend is that although entomb makes budget dragon playable, it makes powered dragon degenerate. Dragon is the deck that got it restricted in the first place, and it is still good without it.

Back when entomb was unrestricted, dragon players would force intentional draws all day until they drew a broken hand that won within the first couple of turns. I for one do not wish to revisit those days. Of course you could fight back by running your own entombs and coffin purge, but c'mon...

Entomb is also a one casting cost instant speed bomb in decks with welders and crucibles. Turn two strip mine/crucible locks, and welded titans would be everywhere if it was unrestricted.

Entomb needs to stay on the list.

[Bastian]

They'll unrestrict Entomb when they restrict Dragon. Problem is... that Dragon would be awesomely better than it already is just like that. Yup... Entomb's really safe to unrestrict... 

[cosineme]

this sounds great.
anybody have a pre restriction 4x entomb dragon list?

you guys make this old deck sound like one of the most degenerate decks ever. i can see its power, turn 1 entomb turn 2 win (infinite mana?) but how does this stack up to other broken broken decks of old? like...4x desire lol.

how long was 4x entomb dragon playable for?

thanks

[Khahan]

you guys make this old deck sound like one of the most degenerate decks ever. i can see its power, turn 1 entomb turn 2 win (infinite mana?)

Not quite. You are forgetting mana accel.  More like turn 1 entomb, turn 1 reanimate, win.

I took an unpowered dragon deck to a t1 tourney a few years back. Not a major tourney, but some power did show up and some of the better decks of the time were there. I not only went 7-0 in rounds, I went 14-0 in matches.  I had 1 game go past turn 3 (it went to turn 6 and I almost lost to weenie beatdown).
I was <i>averaging</i> turn 2.  I even got cocky and let a game go to turn 3 so I win could win at instant speed through my opponents planar void with necromancy.

[49 Cents]

The article is up..

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/af82

[Dralock]

I'm going to have to throw in my vote with Pip on the reason unrestricting entomb doesn't just lie with dragon. Yes, hell yes, dragon will be nuts. But you also automatically have a better Survival of the Fittest or thirst for knowledge, intuition etc. I would Have 4 cards in slaver that are black instead of just 2, and the same goes with gifts combo etc. Considering the graveyard is such an easy resource to abuse in Type 1, you might as well put it the grave as in your hand. I'm talking about win conditions, not just card advantage.

[dicemanx]

I'm going to have to throw in my vote with Pip on the reason unrestricting entomb doesn't just lie with dragon. Yes, hell yes, dragon will be nuts. But you also automatically have a better Survival of the Fittest or thirst for knowledge, intuition etc. I would Have 4 cards in slaver that are black instead of just 2, and the same goes with gifts combo etc. Considering the graveyard is such an easy resource to abuse in Type 1, you might as well put it the grave as in your hand. I'm talking about win conditions, not just card advantage.

If WGD combo didn't exist, I guarantee that there isn't a remote chance in hell that Entomb would be restricted or stay restricted. I guess few people recall just how degenerate the combo was when Entombs were unrestricted, although admittedly the deck did not dominate for obvious reasons.

[cosineme]

slightly off topic, but still entomb related.

Care to explain why the deck did not dominate? It isn't so obvious to me since I wasn't part of that era. Is it because people weren't using bazaars with dragon yet? or what.

thanks

[jpmeyer]

Pretty much.

[Lunar]

id personally love to see entomb unrestricted since it would help out the decks I love to play seeming the most (although im sure other applications could be found for entomb) Dragon and Cerebral Assasin would get instant boosts by dropping the mana required for winning quickly (B is much easier than 2U for intuition) It would even let you get squees going easier by entombing them...

Crucible and Welder are a whole 'nother can of worms though and this might even be the real place for entomb to shine (although CA gets to run welders as well as animates)

I suppose I dont remember how "degenerate" dragon was back then (since I was only playing casual T1 at my local shops back then and nobody played dragon) so I dont know how bad it could have been...I like broken...I wouldnt mind entomb back even if it made stax and stuff like CS better as well...hell bring back trinisphere while youre at it 

how bout this...would entomb be restricted still if it were a sorcery???

[PipOC]

What about Budget Dragon? Entomb is the shit for people who can't afford Bazaar's / Power..

There is no reason at all that anyone would ever want to play entomb over buried alive in budget dragon.

[dicemanx]

What about Budget Dragon? Entomb is the shit for people who can't afford Bazaar's / Power..

There is no reason at all that anyone would ever want to play entomb over buried alive in budget dragon.

The good decks could play both. The cards are not mutually exclusive.

Care to explain why the deck did not dominate? It isn't so obvious to me since I wasn't part of that era. Is it because people weren't using bazaars with dragon yet? or what.

WGD can never dominate because hate is far too strong against it.  The deck's success is tied in to its popularity - the more popular the archetype, the worse it will do.

[PipOC]

The good decks could play both. The cards are not mutually exclusive.

It certainly seems like they would be.  Going off with just entomb requires playing 2 of them, while you only need to play 1 buried alive to find a lethal combination of creatures.  It seems the deck would be much better suited to running more cards to find a buried alive than playing with both.

[Rico Suave]

Once you Entomb the Dragon and reanimate it for a large sum of mana, you can kill with something as simple as Intuition or even Cunning Wish.  You don't need to spend the time-consuming 3 mana on Buried Alive when Entomb sets you up for the same results at only 1 mana.

[prosbloom225]

Entomb unrestricted would make so many more games coinflip worthy.  They restricted 3sphere and that didn't automatically win games like entomb animate does.  Dragon is just sick with 4 entombs in it, so many t1 kills.

[PipOC]

Once you Entomb the Dragon and reanimate it for a large sum of mana, you can kill with something as simple as Intuition or even Cunning Wish.  You don't need to spend the time-consuming 3 mana on Buried Alive when Entomb sets you up for the same results at only 1 mana.

Buried Alive is a 2 card kill.  Entomb is a 3 card kill.  3 mana isn't at all time consuming when you compare it to the time trying to find the third part of the combo.

[dicemanx]

Once you Entomb the Dragon and reanimate it for a large sum of mana, you can kill with something as simple as Intuition or even Cunning Wish.  You don't need to spend the time-consuming 3 mana on Buried Alive when Entomb sets you up for the same results at only 1 mana.

Buried Alive is a 2 card kill.  Entomb is a 3 card kill.  3 mana isn't at all time consuming when you compare it to the time trying to find the third part of the combo.

This is true, although the strongest versions were arguably those that mixed the Entomb and Buried Alive strategies for mass redundancy and speed. Those decks didn't require as much skill to pilot - in fact, tragically weak players were able to win on turn 2 far too easily, making Entomb far too much like Trinisphere as far as enabling retarded early wins. 

[49 Cents]

What about Budget Dragon? Entomb is the shit for people who can't afford Bazaar's / Power..

There is no reason at all that anyone would ever want to play entomb over buried alive in budget dragon.

Now that's not true. Burried Alive costs 3 mana. In budget dragon that is alot, it means that you're running into Mana Drain. Like Rico said, turn 1 Entorm, turn 2 Reanimate, make lots and lots of mana, and then you still have a full hand which could kill your opponent..

[prosbloom225]

Regaurdless Regardless[/color], I'd rather not have 4 entombs per deck. 

We have a spell check button for a reason. Use it.[/color]

[Whatever Works]

The key sentence that nobody is talking about from the wizards websight is this: We are still OK with Gifts Ungiven, Mishra's Workshop, and Mana Drain.

By how they phrased this sentence you can assume that the 3 cards wizards is watching the closest are those 3 cards, and this is the first time I have really ever heard Wotc really mention mana drain with any serious consideration for restriction. Though they have said they have been watching it out of the corner or there eye, or have made notice of the cards power.

They clearly arent concerned about welder, because they were talking about how though goblins might be the strongest legacy deck... It runs goblins so there are thousands of answers... That statement could be assumed to connect to there opinion about welder though I consider it less likely, and much less important then there reference to the mana drain.

About Entomb: Its not going to get unrestricted... Its was restricted because of dragon, and frankly the card would be stronger now then ever with the rise of crucible of worlds, and recoup... If it was unrestricted I dont think it would make dragon the best deck, but it would definetly have a large impact on the format which wizards really does not want to have especially with a new set coming out.

I am extremely happy with the job done with the Banned Restricted List in the past couple of years (NO mistakes at all sinse before the restriction of gush which was an exelent job of killing the problem card, and avoiding hacking away 5 cards from GAT, also the restriction to Long.dec were 100% correct though it did kill madness (but it had to be done), and the decisions to leave cards like dark ritual alone even when a large # of people complained was an exellent call).

Kyle L

[prosbloom225]

Well, I doubt that they'd restrict drain or shop.  Partly because they're so expensive and restricting them would hurt the market.   Also the three cards keep the others in check.  There isn't one dominating card right now, and thats a sign of a healthy format.

[Draven]

You guys, I was wonderign about Buried Alive, isn't Intuition a stronger card? It has the same CMC but it is an instant. It just seems that the instant spped on Intuition would make Buried Alive a non-factor.

Just a side note, I have never played Dragon (though I have played against it plenty) so please be kind with your responses and if I completly missed something, then "oops" ahead of time.

Thanks

[MuzzonoAmi]

Well, I doubt that they'd restrict drain or shop.  Partly because they're so expensive and restricting them would hurt the market.   Also the three cards keep the others in check.  There isn't one dominating card right now, and thats a sign of a healthy format.

There's also the "restriction cascade" that goes with killing one of these cards, which is something that everyone wants to avoid.

I'd love to see unrestricted FoF. I think people are going nuts over the fact that it was good in 2001, and the modern metagame looks nothing like BBS, Keeper, and everything else.

[Liam-K]

You guys, I was wonderign about Buried Alive, isn't Intuition a stronger card? It has the same CMC but it is an instant. It just seems that the instant spped on Intuition would make Buried Alive a non-factor.

Just a side note, I have never played Dragon (though I have played against it plenty) so please be kind with your responses and if I completly missed something, then "oops" ahead of time.

Thanks

You forgot that one of the cards from Intuition goes into your hand.  Buried alive puts laquatas and dragon in the yard so you don't have to mill.  A smart opponent will put whichever you only chose one of in your hand, so you end up with 2 dragons or 2 laquatas and no kill.

[PipOC]

You guys, I was wonderign about Buried Alive, isn't Intuition a stronger card? It has the same CMC but it is an instant. It just seems that the instant spped on Intuition would make Buried Alive a non-factor.

Just a side note, I have never played Dragon (though I have played against it plenty) so please be kind with your responses and if I completly missed something, then "oops" ahead of time.

Thanks

Normally you'd be right, but we're talking about budget dragon which doesn't have the ability to run zaars and pitch the card that goes to your hand to the graveyard.

[Draven]

You guys, I was wonderign about Buried Alive, isn't Intuition a stronger card? It has the same CMC but it is an instant. It just seems that the instant spped on Intuition would make Buried Alive a non-factor.

Just a side note, I have never played Dragon (though I have played against it plenty) so please be kind with your responses and if I completly missed something, then "oops" ahead of time.

Thanks

Normally you'd be right, but we're talking about budget dragon which doesn't have the ability to run zaars and pitch the card that goes to your hand to the graveyard.

Very good point... That makes sense about the Bazzars. Thanks.

[Xman]

Well, I doubt that they'd restrict drain or shop.  Partly because they're so expensive and restricting them would hurt the market.   Also the three cards keep the others in check.  There isn't one dominating card right now, and thats a sign of a healthy format.

Mishras Workshop has been restricted before.

The one card I believe is seriously safe from Restriction, even though they always watch it is Drain.  Without Drain, control would go down the tubes, and WotC is not ready to throw away a large percentage of the decks people play.

[Matt]

The one card I believe is seriously safe from Restriction, even though they always watch it is Drain. Without Drain, control would go down the tubes, and WotC is not ready to throw away a large percentage of the decks people play.

Control has already gone down the tubes, when it was supplanted by combo-control decks. There hasn't been a real, competetive control deck in this format in well over a year. Maybe two years.