[Premium Article] The Case for Thirst for Knowledge in Vintage Gifts

[TheBrassMan]

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/10360.html

Alright slackers... I've already gotten two criticisms before the article was posted, so I know this is going to be an active thread.

For anyone not on Premium, I'm suggesting running Thirst for Knowledge in Gifts-based decks, over MD Gifts Merchant Scroll/Gifts #3-4, as seen in the champs decklist:

Maindeck:

1 Black Lotus
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Goblin Charbelcher
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
2 Pithing Needle
1 Sol Ring
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Brainstorm
1 Fact Or Fiction
4 Force Of Will
2 Gifts Ungiven
4 Mana Drain
1 Mystical Tutor
4 Thirst For Knowledge
1 Burning Wish
1 Demonic Tutor
2 Duress
2 Merchant Scroll
1 Recoup
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Yawgmoth's Will
2 Island
2 Flooded Strand
1 Library Of Alexandria
2 Polluted Delta
1 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Snow-covered Island

Sideboard:
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Sacred Ground
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Pyroblast
1 Rack And Ruin
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Rushing River
1 Balance
1 Duress
1 Mana Severance
2 Pyroclasm



Bolded all of the "nonstandard" choices I discuss, though primary focus is on whether Thirst should be run or not.

go to it boys!

[Moxlotus]

Amazing article Andy.  It highlighted the points exactly.  A lot of the cards are "which do you want to do main, and which do you want to do post side.

It does show that even when you gain no card advantage with Thirst, who cares.  BS doesn't.  Impulse doesn't.  If you don't, you still optimize your hand.

[Meddling Mike]

Look, I love TFK, but in a deck like this I really don't think it belongs. Without the synergy with Goblin Welder I'm not sure that the draw/penetration provided by TFK is good enough to stand by itself. Merchant Scroll and Gifts Ungiven are precise and flexible to the situation, TFK is just random card draw.

[Disburden]

I think to argue over this deck or Meandeck Gifts being better than the other is silly.


These are totally different decks from eachother. I think of this as a lot more aggressive than Meandecks gifts. I draw so many more cards with this version that by the end of a game my library is tiny. Not at all like MDG.

I like both builds a lot and I've played them both. This was a great article and I actually have been waiting for something like this since you got second at Gencon, which btw proves how good you are with your deck. Great job!


Do you find yourself getting wasted a lot though? Yu run three basic lands compared to MDGs which has 5-6 basic lands. Are you naming Wasteland with Pithing Needle often?

[TheBrassMan]

@ Meddling Mage-

I probably didn't hit on this point well enough in the article, but- Gifts gets you the cards you need to win, and it does a great job, but Thirst puts you in a position to use them.  Thirst is just better for developing your hand and your board, which means the longer the game goes, the more likely you are to win.  Thirst, like brainstorm lets you run powerful but situational cards without sacrificing draws when they're dead.  This is obvious in control slaver, but is by no means exclusive to that deck.

Don't forget.... Welder didn't make Thirst playable... Thirst made Welder playable :\

@ Disburden-

3 basics isn't near as bad as you think, but you're right, in a Waste filled meta I'd want one more, white should really be dumped from the list to do it (it was really a metagame/surprise factor call, more than a permenant decision).

On arguing this against Meandeck Gifts, I don't think it's silly at all.  I think type one players are a little too quick to throw the "different archetype" argument around (this is in no way an attack towards you, it just reminded me of a bigger phenomenon).  If I wanted to cut the Thirsts and replace them with Obsessive Search, you can imagine the deck would play differently.  It wouldn't be a different deck though, it'd just suck.

Obviously, different card choices are going to be better on different days, in different metas, with different players, there's really not such thing as a "perfect" 60 card list.  That said, there's a certain amount of responsibility we have, as a community trying to develop vintage, to hunt out objectively superior and inferior strategies.  I could be wrong, Thirst could be terrible in the deck, and I've just let the other cards do the winning for me, but if no one brought up the argument, we'd never find out

[MaxxMatt]

@BrassMan

As could have seen some weeks ago, I'm playing a Gifts.dec similar to yours.
Less Merchants and Mis-Ds but with more Drawers and different protections.

I really like some of your ideas.
I really fear some of them, despite your HUGE result at the Worlds Vintage Champ.

I noticed these things that seemed a bit "risky" to me about your build:

1) 24 mana fonts with 10 artifacts among them. You can abuse of it or die because of the extreme acceleration that leave your mana base open to be blocked by Wastelands locks and Null Rod's lock. While your reasoning about adding white for balance and sacred ground, is the perfect connubium to heal that unstable configuration, how it performed to you during all the game1 that you made with it?

2) I play with 3 TFK and a single Skeletal in my maindeck and with a couple of Duresses instead of your Needles. The other quantities are almost the same ( no belcher and vault but but more lands ). In the end, the goal of our decks is really similar and I'm sure that those differences are geared around our different metagames far more than poiting out different playstile.

3) I play the Grounds in my board too, but I have a Tundra in my Sideboard instead that having it in my maindeck. I would try it maindeck again, but I don't know if the Balance-plan is worth is playing, since game 1.

4) During game one and basing on your experience, have Needles called things different from Wastelands and Shamans? From my experience, they add a lot to our game-plan if they resolve fast against a denial.dec but they do little to nothing against non-welder control strategies and combo decks. Would you have felt better with Duresses ( and a mana base tweaked for them) ?

5) During the past weeks, when all the other players launch themselves on the glorification of the MDG's build, I warned them about the lack of ACTUAL answers and solutions to break control mirrors and well prepared opponents. Your experience have been a falling star to follow! You gave to me a beatiful confirmation of my thoughts and fear, not counting the lesson that you teach to all the other blind Gifts players. Thanks!

6) Is mana severance really needed to your deck? Your deck's configuration let you resolve Belcher when needed and then eventually survive a couple of turns to do lethal damage with a couple of swings. Have yu tutored it so often?

7) Haven't you found that Belcher+DSC can both die to the commonly used hate while DSC+ToA can let you easily escape from nasty situations without any problems?
What have been you reasoning behindthis choice?





Maxx


PS:

Thirst is just better for developing your hand and your board, which means the longer the game goes, the more likely you are to win.

I feel exactly as you, when referring to the "why" I'm playing more drawers instead of more tutors. My plan is to break the early game but win in the mid late game because of an ovehelming cards' advantage and a strong board postion. Only a lot of drawers and more focused solutions can let me do it with ease and without unneeded hurry.

[TheBrassMan]

1) You're right.  I've been defending 24 sources since I built the deck, but GenCon changed my mind about a few matchups.  Where I usually play in the Northeast US, there are little-to-no shop decks, the only wastelands you see are in Fish builds, where the match plays out entirely differently.  I'm sticking to 24 around here, but I'm probably going to look into making room for a 25th in Workshop-Infested Chicago, for instance.  I can't recall any matches coming down to my basic count, but I remember being uncomfortable with it afterwards.  I doubt I'll run more than 4 islands and 5 fetches though

2) it probably is a metagame thing, I can't imagine Needle being maindecked in an enviornment with mostly Gifts and Storm Combo, I did actually run Duress at Gen Con, though

3) About Tundra, right now I'm trying the deck without white, seeing if I can nail the Sacred Ground matchups without a splash, if I decide to go back though, the tundra would stay main, I don't think I could use one of my sideboard slots on it, you only get so many.  Balance was pretty dead all day, actually, I never wished for it, I boarded it in once against a fish deck, but it wouldn't have been too much better than Pyroclasm.

4) Besides Welder/Shaman, Needle is very solid against Fish, by shutting off Vial, Jitte, or Factory, it's great against Bazaar decks, for obvious reasons, and it stops Strip Mine to make sure your basics can carry you through, before they even get the Crucible out.

5) Thanks! I think that the Meandeck build is very solid, but there are other directions to take the deck, that I feel are stronger overall

6) That's one reason I moved the severance to the board.  It really does take a while to kill someone with belcher, however, even late game, it's not something you want to have to do, even though sometimes it's the right call.  Interestingly enough though, I actually board in the Severance in certain matches, when I want to win fast, like against aggro, or when I feel like they'll have exceptional hate for Colossus.  In some matches, I board out one win condition alltogether, to nullify opposing sideboard cards.

7) Actually, I don't really think they lose to the same hate cards at all, Colossus can't win through bounce, StP, Maze of Ith or an enemy Colossus, but Belcher doesn't have problems with any of those.  Similarly, Belcher can't win through Null Rod, Damping Matrix, or a Needle, but Colossus charges right through.  I can't really think of any overlap hate cards, actually ... but both Colossus and Tendrils lose to a Platinum Angel... unlike Belcher! 

[doylehancock]

@Brassman
Great Article.  I am a huge fan of the card gifts and love to see all of the different ways people use it.  Also great job at Gencon.

I dont know if I like not running 4 gifts.  When MD Gifts first came out I was very very worried about the 4 gifts (Instead of the standard 2-3).  Steve told everyone there was no reason not to run 4 and some disagreed but it turns out 4 is great.  I think you could make room for 4 but I understand if you think 2 is the way to go.

Also I never saw a tourney report, how did you do against MD gifts?  It seems as though you could have the advantage with the draw and duresses main.

I understand what you are saying about thirst but I dont understand why you would want thirst over gifts.  You gave the example of sphere of resistance and thats about it.  Isnt gifts more broken than thirst?  If you want you can gifts for 4 draw cards and then you would be drawing more cards then thirst could.

If I gifts for brainstorm, FOF, gifts, and scroll.  You will probably give me brainstorm, and scroll.  So I storm then scroll for ancestral recall or gifts.  I am netting more cards then that thirst did.  Granted this way is more mana intense but MD gifts has so much excleration that mana is rarely hard to get (you can always gifts for it).

Finally I do like the deck but I dont like it more the MD gifts.  Obviously you took 2nd at worlds with the deck but I think you could have done that with a lot of different gifts build (as you have had great showings before with gifts).  Could you drop the durresses for gifts or even needles for gifts?  Maybe even belcher (put tendrils in the board).

thanks and once again great article.

[Machinus]

This debate can't really just be called "thirst vs. gifts" since they two cards aren't interchangeable.

Just as Gifted.fr used thirst + phyrexian furnace, this deck uses pithing needle and explosives in the same slot to boost thirst to a point where it yields +1 card instead of being an expensive brainstorm.

Thirst is a cheaper card which fills a more central role of card drawing, something it is difficult to use gifts for unless the deck is built around it.

The debate should really be about whether or not cards like pithing needle and explosives strong enough to maindeck, because it is essential to support thirst, and it and gifts serve very different functions. I think it's hard to discount someone's choices so quickly if they have performed this well in a large event.

[Moxlotus]

I understand what you are saying about thirst but I dont understand why you would want thirst over gifts.  You gave the example of sphere of resistance and thats about it.  Isnt gifts more broken than thirst?

I think Andy has said that Thirst puts you in a much better position to win the game.  Once you are in position, you can win with anything.  Thirsts puts you ahead in card advantage or at least card quality, sooner than Gifts will. 

[arj]

Great article Andy. While I know this is not really the question at hand, might I ask you why you are running Library of Alexandria? I would think you added it to beat drain based decks. Ever had problem with not having 2 blue open on turn two because of library? Running Thirst makes it a little easier to ditch it mid-late game for better cards, but still it seems rather risky. Could you provide some insight into how good you consider this card? has really been the non-basic land slot worth?

Thanks.

[TheBrassMan]

@DoyleHancock: 
I only played against Meandeck Gifts once in the event, but I have plenty of experience in the match.  The Duress are very big, MDGifts has a slightly stronger turn one and two, but as long as they don't actually win then, I should be in good shape.  The fact that their disruption provides card disadvantage and mine doesn't is big, as is the fact that my card drawing comes online a turn faster.  Now, if they MisD an Ancestral, that's an entirely different story, but you just have to play around that sort of thing.

Further on Thirst v Gifts, purely talking about netting cards/developing - Tempo is still extremely important outside of Sphere of Resistance.  In the example you gave, you'd be spending 3U + U + 1U + U to look at 6 cards, and draw 3, that's 8 mana, just because you have acceleration, doesn't mean you have to spend it all on overpriced effect.  You could run the same amount of acceleration and cast other spells with them.  Think about the alternative.  I look at 3 cards and draw 2, the turn before you even cast Gifts.  Because I decided to run Thirsts in my deck, you just gave me two Time Walks... and I didn't even have to Burning Wish.

I've tried a *lot* of variations on this deck.  I've split for power with a Gifts/Mishra's Factory build.  I understand why people like the 4 Gifts/4 Scroll combination, it's good.  I just don't think it's best

@Machinus:
I actually address the "minimum number of artifacts to run thirst" issue in the article, but I probably didn't do a very good job.  I've actually been running the deck with those three slots as non-artifacts for a while.  Up to the tournament the day before the champs, I'd been running a Rebuild and an Echoing Truth where the Needles ended up.  I still loved Thirst, but I hated the bounce spells.  Every artifact in your deck makes Thirst better, that's obvious, but you don't need to throw artifacts in to keep Thirst running.  Needle and Engineered Exposives aren't required to make Thirst work... it's actually the other way around. 
Needle and EE are very powerful, situational cards, that I *love* having access too, but would never run in MDGifts.  Why?  because MDGifts only has 4 Brainstorms to turn potentially dead cards into gassy ones, and you're going to need to save them for extra lands and Darksteel Colossi.  Thirst lets you run good cards you normally wouldn't be able to.

@arj
I love me some Library of Alexandria.  Keep in mind, playing/learning how to play in New England makes me fear and respect the control mirror more than any other match in magic.  Library just wins a lot of matches.  I haven't had any problems hitting two blue when I needed to with Library stuck in hand.  That said, I've considered cutting it for other colorscrew reasons, or just to have more basics against wastes.  Playing with library is a skill/playstyle related thing, if it doesn't work for you in your meta, the deck wouldn't suffer terribly if you cut it.

[MaxxMatt]

@Brassman
On the Winners Issue.

I'm sure that ToA + DSC has those advantages over Belcher + DSC:

1) Total Immunity to Rods
2) No Welders targets
3) No Artifacts & Bouncers targets
4) 1 Maindeck's Slot freed
5) ToA is better against control decks
6) ToA is better against combo decks

The Belcher itself is killed by 1) + 2) + 3)
It occupies a slot as said in 4)
When comparing ToA to Belcher, I don't saw any improvment on using the latter over the first against 5)  and 6)

Platinum Angel is directly killed by Belcher but in this case Belcher can do nothing more that is commonly done by any removals or bouncers.
Who plays it, anyway?






@doylehancock

If I gifts for brainstorm, FOF, gifts, and scroll.  You will probably give me brainstorm, and scroll.  So I storm then scroll for ancestral recall or gifts. I am netting more cards then that thirst did.  Granted this way is more mana intense but MD gifts has so much excleration that mana is rarely hard to get (you can always gifts for it).

I have AL LEAST three points to underline to you about this statement and the risks that it has hidden in it.

1) You are reasoning as if the Brainstorm would net you 3 spells and as if Merchant Scroll would net you another Gifts that would always resolve.
Put you in the strange but real world of living opponents.
Think about your plan ruined.
Think about something went wrong.
Brainstorm showed you nothing really exciting and Gifts got countered.
AT THIS POINT, if the game usually involve chaining Gifts over Gifts to pump up beatiful victories, what are the chances that you are holding something useful, yet?

2)You Gifted for FoF and Gifts. If you are going to Merchant-Scroll for Ancestral or another Gifts you deprive your deck from another bomb. The deck after this FIRST!!!! single Gifts has a couple restricted less and at least two Gifts and other minor things in it. Have you ever tried to realize HOW MUCH the deck is resources intensive and how low would become your threat's density after one or two Gifts? Put you in the strange world of countered Gifts again. Have you thought about HOW DIFFICULT would be drawing into some threats when the deck consist on a lot of lands, a lot of artifacts, a lot of counters and LESS THAN NORMAL drawers?

3) Brassman's Gifts has the same acceleration that Steve's MDG proposed to use. But with more artifacts to correctly fuel TFKs. I don't know why it isn't autoexplaining for anyone that both the mana bases are terribly powerful but really easy to slow down or hate out. When you are facing "things" that are going to hurt you deck, IS SIMPLE to think to be able to reach 3 stable mana far more easier than 4 stable mana. I face Rods and CotVs and Wastelands ALL DAY LONG and I'm really bored to be clunked by my own Gifts, all unused into my hand. Sometimes, in some bad situations, TFKs are hypercosted too, but they are usually better on going around hate, even if their effect is difficultly  comparable to Gifts.
...But if Gifts cannot resolve....

[doylehancock]

@MadMaxx

Doesnt that hold true for anything that gets countered?  If I cant gifts and you counter and you cast TFK and I counter what was the difference outside of the fact I tapped one more mana.

But you said brainstorm resolved and we all know what brainstorm can do.  I then scroll for a gifts then my gifts gets countered but I still saw more cards because they would have countered the TFK.

I am just stating TFK isnt as good as gifts in a gifts based deck.  In slaver TFK is surperior, there is no denying that but this isnt slaver.

Also I dont like the belcher main either when you can wish for the tendrils.

I played MD gifts at a tourney for 4 underground seas.  I ended up winning the tourney and never once killed with tendrils. DSC all the way.  Nullrod does dick against tendrils and DSC.

[TheBrassMan]

Doesnt that hold true for anything that gets countered?  If I cant gifts and you counter and you cast TFK and I counter what was the difference outside of the fact I tapped one more mana.

Yeah, you're right.  The difference in opinion here, is how important "tapping one more mana" is.  You seem to think that mana is negligible, whereas I believe it's huge.  As long as we have that difference of opinion, the Thirst vs Gifts/Scroll issue can't be resolved.  Of course Gifts is better in type four, but there's a reason Quanar/Opportunity isn't top 8ing at SCG.

The Belcher itself is killed by 1) + 2) + 3)
It occupies a slot as said in 4)
When comparing ToA to Belcher, I don't saw any improvment on using the latter over the first against 5)  and 6)

Also I dont like the belcher main either when you can wish for the tendrils.

on 2/3, I usually don't throw belcher down before I have 3 mana and an already severanced deck, in which case, artifact kill/welders/bounce doesn't actually do anything.  In the rare situations it's happened, I've never had that be a problem, boarding in artifact kill/bounce is pretty subpar against this deck, anyway.  On using a maindeck slot, that's deliberate.  By not running a secondary kill main, you're basically accepting that if your opponent has any way to deal with colossus, you're going to need Burning Wish.  That means if you have any utility in the board, you can't afford to wish for it if you think there's even a chance colossus won't do the deed, making Wish basically just as dead as Colossus.  If I decided that I liked Tendrils more than Belcher, I'd run a Tendrils main.  Admittedly, I'd probably run one in the board, too, but that doesn't change my feelings on the subject.

As for the Null Rod, you're right, Null Rod shuts down belcher, I feel that's a small price to pay for the reason below.

Now the real reason I don't like Tendrils is something I know some people won't agree with.  I hate the idea that in order to win with Tendrils, you need to have an all-in busted turn, most of the time involving Yawgmoth's Will and Rebuild (which, in my mind, constitutes a "dead maindeck card" necessary to run if you're winning with Tendrils).  I hate the idea that Time Walk becomes *worse* if you're trying to win with Tendrils.  If you're casting Will with a Burning Wish and enough moxen to Tendrils out, why isn't Colossus doing the trick? why wouldn't Belcher be?  In the *very* real-world situation that you have to cast Will early to get "just" an Ancestral and a Time Walk, it's a lot easier to win with a two-card kill you can assemble over a few turns.

I played MD gifts at a tourney for 4 underground seas.  I ended up winning the tourney and never once killed with tendrils. DSC all the way.  Nullrod does dick against tendrils and DSC.

I played my Gifts using just Tendrils and Colossus at a tournament for a Mox, I ended up winning the tourney and never once killed with Tendrils.  To me, that was a good reason to not run it... what's your logic?

[doylehancock]

@brassman

you are right about the mana thing.  We disagree so we wont be able to see eye to eye with the TFK and gifts arguemnet.

I didnt kill with tendrils not because I couldnt but because I didnt want to.  The belcher is just a different in opinion.  I do agree that to kill with tendrils you have to will.  thats just about as true as it gets. 

However fish runs swords and null rod main so they should own this deck (in theory)

[BruiZar]

doyle: i think vial fish is more prominent and doesnt run rod if im right

[Whatever Works]

To get tendrils of agony to 10 usually requires rebuild, or a good yawgmoths will. That being said... Yawgmoths will ends the game regardless in Andy's Deck...

To Burning Wish + cast tendrils is 6 mana... to get belcher and use is 7 (and 2 more for severence), but usually in those situations mana is irrelevent, and thus the kill is too... Also from playing alot with Andy it has become apparent that he almost always severences the turn(s) before will.

[doylehancock]

To get tendrils of agony to 10 usually requires rebuild, or a good yawgmoths will. That being said... Yawgmoths will ends the game regardless in Andy's Deck...

To Burning Wish + cast tendrils is 6 mana... to get belcher and use is 7 (and 2 more for severence), but usually in those situations mana is irrelevent, and thus the kill is too... Also from playing alot with Andy it has become apparent that he almost always severences the turn(s) before will.

keep in mind belcher takes up a maindeck slot.  with tendrils you arent taking up a maindeck slot.  I feel this is an extremely important issue because gifts is a tight deck

[Whatever Works]

To get tendrils of agony to 10 usually requires rebuild, or a good yawgmoths will. That being said... Yawgmoths will ends the game regardless in Andy's Deck...

To Burning Wish + cast tendrils is 6 mana... to get belcher and use is 7 (and 2 more for severence), but usually in those situations mana is irrelevent, and thus the kill is too... Also from playing alot with Andy it has become apparent that he almost always severences the turn(s) before will.

keep in mind belcher takes up a maindeck slot.  with tendrils you arent taking up a maindeck slot.  I feel this is an extremely important issue because gifts is a tight deck

The thing is that this isnt a "gifts" deck primarily. Gifts is a good/abused card, but the deck doesnt involve resolving this spell 100% for the win like it does with meandeck gifts.... Also when did it become a horrible thing to run more then 1 maindeck kill condition??? This is 1 reason I really like it, because it wont auto lose if a CS player drops turn 1 crypt/welder...

[Moxlotus]

keep in mind belcher takes up a maindeck slot.  with tendrils you arent taking up a maindeck slot.  I feel this is an extremely important issue because gifts is a tight deck

Andy already covered this.  If you can't win with DSC, for example you are playing against a deck with a few bounce spells or StP, then you must hold your Wish for the kill.  You can't use wish for utility, you must hold it.  By having to sit there and hold it it is a dead card in the MD, just like the Belcher would be.

[Darkmage]

To get tendrils of agony to 10 usually requires rebuild, or a good yawgmoths will. That being said... Yawgmoths will ends the game regardless in Andy's Deck...

To Burning Wish + cast tendrils is 6 mana... to get belcher and use is 7 (and 2 more for severence), but usually in those situations mana is irrelevent, and thus the kill is too... Also from playing alot with Andy it has become apparent that he almost always severences the turn(s) before will.

keep in mind belcher takes up a maindeck slot.  with tendrils you arent taking up a maindeck slot.  I feel this is an extremely important issue because gifts is a tight deck

The thing is that this isnt a "gifts" deck primarily. Gifts is a good/abused card, but the deck doesnt involve resolving this spell 100% for the win like it does with meandeck gifts.... Also when did it become a horrible thing to run more then 1 maindeck kill condition??? This is 1 reason I really like it, because it wont auto lose if a CS player drops turn 1 crypt/welder...

The deck doesn't autolose to crypt/welder if it runs Pithing Needle.

[andrewpate]

Now the real reason I don't like Tendrils is something I know some people won't agree with.  I hate the idea that in order to win with Tendrils, you need to have an all-in busted turn, most of the time involving Yawgmoth's Will and Rebuild (which, in my mind, constitutes a "dead maindeck card" necessary to run if you're winning with Tendrils).  I hate the idea that Time Walk becomes *worse* if you're trying to win with Tendrils.  If you're casting Will with a Burning Wish and enough moxen to Tendrils out, why isn't Colossus doing the trick? why wouldn't Belcher be?  In the *very* real-world situation that you have to cast Will early to get "just" an Ancestral and a Time Walk, it's a lot easier to win with a two-card kill you can assemble over a few turns.

I couldn't agree more with Andy on this point.  I have hated Tendrils of Agony in every Gifts build I've seen it in, because it forces you to dissociate your play between control and combo in a way that keeps you from optimizing certian situations.  By running Thirst for Knowledge, Andy's build generates the additional card quality advantage necessary to win long games, and playing long games ensures that this build will cough up a Gifts Ungiven by the time you need to cast it, even with only 2 copies, freeing up maindeck slots for great tech like Pithing Needle.

In other words, this deck is more similar to 4cc than to MD Gifts, in that it is a control deck capable of going broken, especially with a big Yawgmoth's Will.  MD Gifts is too often a servant of two masters for my tastes, and this eliminates that problem by playing more similarly from game to game.

Has anyone else noticed that most of the players getting big finishes with MD Gifts seem to be ones known for exceptional playskill?  It is easy to say that this indicates a deck which rewards tight play, but in this case I would almost say that the better explaination would be that it takes great skill to make MD Gifts really do its thing consistently, a problem I think Andy has addressed pretty effectively with his build.  So maybe Thirst isn't the best card--even granting that, I think that this new gameplan deserves further work.

[doylehancock]

@Brassman

couple more things about the deck.

1) since you believe that one mana difference is huge whyare you running duress instead of the free casting misdirection?

2) I understand you did great with this deck (shit 2nd in anything is pretty damn good) but do you think that is because of TFK?  What about duress?  Belcher?  Or just you playskill?

3) If you would change anything about the deck what would it be?

4) You said you love library, do you play it first turn if you can or do you go to build you mana base?

5) with you lower number of basics did you have a problem with wastelands or is that why you are running needles main?

thanks again as I am just trying to fully understand why I should play this over md gifts. 

[MaxxMatt]

Also when did it become a horrible thing to run more then 1 maindeck kill condition???

Playing with dead cards in the maindeck is usually narrow.
At now, my deck count Recoup and DSC. These are cards that do nothing without being coupled to other and that are dead in a lot of matchups.
You have an added Belcher too.
Because you would randomly lose to Jester's Cap anyway, why are you advocating playing with the maindeck Belcher too?

Belcher usually won against Aggro and Combo
DSC usually won against Aggro, Aggro-Control and Combo
ToA usually won against Control and Combo.
Being a Storm-based spell, ToA is inherently better than DSC/Belcher while playing against any other Control.decs .
Platz is a non issue, because Rebuild will resolve al least once during the ToA's winning route.


Why should I play with a card that functionally overlap the DSC's role when I can power-up with a single ToA the matchups where both DSC and Belcher are weaker?

This is 1 reason I really like it, because it wont auto lose if a CS player drops turn 1 crypt/welder...

While I consider Crypts and Welders good threats, I would not refer to them such as "Auto-Lose".
If you play with MDGifts, you are going to play an heavy geared-grave-recurring deck. Welders and Crypts are strong against them.

I'm playing a deck similar to Brassmann ( that itself is similar to Gifts.fr ) and where he had Needles, I have Bouncers.
He didn't autoscope to any Welders/Crypts combinations such as me.
I play a deck that rarely put strong things into my grave for free and when I play "the gifts-gamble", I'm usually going to win anyway.




The ONLY argument that sometimes force me to think and talk about adding other things to the maindeck is to find another good Tinker target, excluding DSC and Lotus.
And Belcher's only added bonus and improvement to the maindeck consist on it being an artifact.
Unluckily, it isn't enough to worth me playing with it.



@doyle

I try to talk for my own and not to steal words to Brassman, but to try to explain why both of us prefer to play this gifts-stylish deck.

When you are carefully weighting your own resources, you are planning to play "slow".
Not defensively but projected to the mid, mid-late game.

You are not going to resolve killing cards' combos as soon as you can, almost depriving all your deck's resources.

If you are following my reasoning, I think that Mis.Ds' power is always almost completely obscured by the inherent stronger addition to the game plan that Duress usually is.

Duress could be played both to deprive opponents of their resources and both to have a secure path when you are choosing which would be the better kills for them.

This strenght is so game breaking and their sinergies with almost the entire deck are so ovehelming that I'm not going to consider Mis-Ds as possible substitutes for Duresses at all.

I have to advice you about a thing, too:

Don't change the correct approach to the deck ONLY beause you are holding or drawing into a Duress.
Focus on the opponent and try to think if it would be better to re-shuffle it back and play some Islands or not. Or try to think if they are playing a deck that cannot affect your own manabase. Wait and plan carefully your moves SINCE the first turn. You don't have to do play errors only if the deck is "suggesting" to you the wrong cards.

The only real goal of this deck consist on conquering the midgame in the best position he could have planned to achieve.
You are the one who would decide which methods and spells are going to be used from time to time.




MaxxMatt

[forests failed you]

If you didn't play Charbelcher, you could play Damping Matrix which is much better than Pithing Needle in a variety of matchups/.

[doylehancock]

If you didn't play Charbelcher, you could play Damping Matrix which is much better than Pithing Needle in a variety of matchups/.

I disagree needle costs 1 to cast.  thats it just one.

[TheBrassMan]

keep in mind belcher takes up a maindeck slot.  with tendrils you arent taking up a maindeck slot.  I feel this is an extremely important issue because gifts is a tight deck

as an aside, besides the Burning Wish I mentioned, you need to run Rebuild to make Tendrils an effective kill card.  I know Rebuild cycles, and can be used against Stax, etc.  However, I ran Rebuild main for a very long time in my build, and the amount of times it was useful was so slight, I decided to cut it and not look back.  If you need to use it to kill, and it's not that great on its own, it's not really a utility slot.  Nevermind the fact that with the extra Thirsts, as opposed to just Brainstorm, "dead" cards are "less dead" in my build.

1) since you believe that one mana difference is huge whyare you running duress instead of the free casting misdirection?

MaxxMatt gave a great answer which I agree with entirely.  Duress is a better effect all around, nevermind that MisD is actually uncastable in plenty of very important matchups (outside of 1 Ancestral), where duress just becomes "not optimal."  (and if you actually miss on a Duress, I wouln't be too worried about the rest of the game).  Even in the matchups where MisD is good, like against Gifts, I'd rather have a Duress, as it answers cards like Tinker and Yawgmoth's Will, which, you know, I hear are pretty good.  Besides all that... it costs a damn card!  There's a reason I'm not running Unmask over Duress, either.

2) I understand you did great with this deck (shit 2nd in anything is pretty damn good) but do you think that is because of TFK?  What about duress?  Belcher?  Or just you playskill?

I'm not going to say I would have scrubbed if I played MDGifts, or that I would have won that finals match either.  MDGifts is very good.  Duress, Thirst, and Belcher all won me games.  Maybe if I ran the cards MDGifts runs instead, I would have won games with them, there's really no way of knowing.  All I can do is tell you that my list has given me very good results, I've played with both, and I play with the cards I do for a reason.

3) If you would change anything about the deck what would it be?

I'm definitely not under the impression that nothing can be improved.  I've tried *many* configurations, trying to see what actually works about the list, and what doesn't.  This includes such gems as maindeck Disrupt, Mishra's Factory, Wastelands or Damping Matrix, all of which I either split for, or won power with.  I'm going to keep trying ridiculous combinations of cards, but at a large event like SCG, chances are I'll be playing something very similar to the Gen Con list.  My sideboard at Gen Con was terrible for a number of reasons, but the main I've been more than satisfied with.  If I decide to change anything, it will probably be manabase related.

4) You said you love library, do you play it first turn if you can or do you go to build you mana base?

If I'm on the draw I'll play it first against just about anything.  If I'm on the play, playing it is based on my hand more than anything else.  I personally feel that the extra card a turn helps me develop a manabase quickly, by assuring I'll see more moxen, and never miss a land drop.  The exception to this is if you have a blue land, a Sapphire, and a Drain in your opening hand.  Against something like combo or Stax I'd rather have the drain up first turn.  Against Control Slaver, Gifts, or Fish, however, I'd still rather play Library in that scenario.

5) with you lower number of basics did you have a problem with wastelands or is that why you are running needles main?

The basic count is a little low for playing against Stax, but not against most other decks.  Without the Spheres of Resistance and full set of Crucibles, 3 basics is plenty to keep most Wasteland decks from punish you.  However, after GenCon, chances are Stax numbers are going to go up around the country, and I'll probably be upping the basic count, starting with the Tundra from the con list.

Belcher usually won against Aggro and Combo
DSC usually won against Aggro, Aggro-Control and Combo
ToA usually won against Control and Combo.
Being a Storm-based spell, ToA is inherently better than DSC/Belcher while playing against any other Control.decs .
Platz is a non issue, because Rebuild will resolve al least once during the ToA's winning route.

I'm not actually sure where you're getting these results from.  Personally I find aggro decks are the most likely to have a random answer to Colossus, be it Bouncer/StP/Artifact Mutation, or whatever.  Either way, the real issue is that you feel Tendrils storm makes it easier to resolve against control, and I don't agree at all.

Most obvious, and most important, if you're not running Tendrils main, storm doesn't really matter, does it?  Who's <i>not</i> going to counter the Burning Wish when you have 2BB floating and a million storm.  If they're not able to counter the Wish, they wouldn't have been able to counter any of the other threats.  I'm sure you know that games don't play out that way though, when you've set up thoroughly with Thirst and Gifts, you can handle just about any disruption a control deck throws at you, no matter what you're killing with. Even if you were running Tendrils main, you'd still be vulnerable to well timed counters on Will, Rebuild, or even Lotus in the right situation.  If it was as simple as "storm can't be countered" combo decks would place a lot higher in fields of control.

It could be argued, even, that the other kills are actually <i>more</i> effective against control.  The fact that you're running Recoup and YawgWill means Tinker and Mana Severance have to be countered three, which is pretty damn relevant against control.  Yeah, technically Tendrils can be Recouped, too, but like I said in my first argument against it, chances aren't too likely you're going to have the storm/mana necessary for Tendrils twice in a game.

Okay, you're right about Platinum Angel, but that was mostly a joke on my part   Your statement, however, just reinforces the fact that Tendrils is pretty reliant on a number of very counter-able spells.

If you didn't play Charbelcher, you could play Damping Matrix which is much better than Pithing Needle in a variety of matchups/.

Interestingly enough, I tested this, it started as board tech for Slaver, and then I tried a build with Matrixes main, and the Tendrils kill.  The card is very good in play, against a surprising number of decks, but in the end the cost was too prohibitive.  The three mana was only really worth it in the Slaver match, and there are other choices there that work just as well there.  After I lost a game single-handedly to Artifact Mutation tokens from my Matrix, I decided to pursue other options

[FiReiSFuN]

Hey Brassman, congrats on your finish at Champs.  I've been considering playing this deck at some of the local T1 tourneys in my city, and as such have been practicing with various builds of it.  Perhaps I haven't been following closely enough, but why the evolution from Welders/maindeck Mana Severance, to Burning Wish/maindeck Pithing Needle and Engineered Explosives.  Also, it seems to me that the build just can't answer a Chalice for 0 (though I might be overlooking something?).  Could you (or anyone else) address these issues for me?  Thanks!

[Methuselahn]

Perhaps I haven't been following closely enough, but why the evolution from Welders/maindeck Mana Severance, to Burning Wish/maindeck Pithing Needle and Engineered Explosives.  Also, it seems to me that the build just can't answer a Chalice for 0 (though I might be overlooking something?).  Could you (or anyone else) address these issues for me?  Thanks!

I would guess that Needle and Explosives are a meta call as well as a way to get around Chalice for 0.  Mana Vault, Sol Ring, 2 Needles, and 2 Explosives give you alot of options at 1 casting cost+ to fuel a Tinker if your opponent casts Chalice for 0 on the play.  Burning Wish is simply a tutor for answers and Severance, but I bet opponents have scooped to a resolved Burning Wish thinking there is a Tendrils in the side.  You could definitely use that tactic in a pinch, setting up a psuedo ToA kill.