The Lack of Tog in the U.S.

[Smmenen]

Like, Josh has played in multiple SCG events and so Has bushman.

Bushman always makes like top 20 but I am not sure if Josh could have done the same in a 8 round event at a SCG tournament.

It's really not about Colossus being better so much as Tog sucks as a creature.  Tinker is just a better and more efficient win condition.

Why would you play Tog when you could play some combination of Shamans and Tinker? 

The win condition isn't Tog.  It's yawgmoths' will. 


Why play with Tog when you can randomly turn one Tinker and ride it all the way?   Not having the option of random turn one Tinker when you could is just bad. 

[NastyNate]

The only thing I can see going for Tog, over Tinker, is the abundance of goblin welders in the format. Tinker for colossus on turn one, is far less scary for a deck that plays a turn one welder, than say tinker for Sundering Titan, or Triskelion.

When Gifts is forced to win with tendrils of agony, than it really has no edge over Tog. The clocks are similar, the disruption is about equal, and the draw engine is slightly in Tog's favor.

[Smmenen]

You missed the point.  THe win condition in Tog isn't Tog.  It's yawgmoth's Will.  Your draw is all tempo loss.  The reason its good is because INtuition AK best sets up and protects Yawg Will more than any other draw engine in the format - including Gifts. 

The reason you run Tinker is because every good deck  should have the possibilyt of turn one Tinker.  If they weld it out, just use your draw to resolve Will and then you don't have to worry about Welder. 

[silvernail]

The reason Tog decks dont see as much play is because people feel other decks are more powerful, i said fell because perhaps they arent more powerful. Tog can do just fine if played well and josh has shown that. My friend Jesse gwen made 17th at the last waterbury with a tog list, missing the cut because of tie breakers. This was back when he had a suboptimal concauction of cards that happned to cast yawg will or tinker DSC and win.

The point of tog is to combo out, which it can do pretty well. The issue being it has to prevent others from doing that first, but it can randomly win even if it doesnt disrupt the opponent fast enough. In one of Jesse's games at waterbury he was in a feature match and the pressure realyl racked his brain such that everytime he cast duress in that match he picked the worst card he could have possibly picked. He still won the game because he had a tog on the board while the other player couldnt handle the tog.

The tog is inevitable because it gets bigger over time, and hopefully a short period of time. It can swing for 1 just like its friend goblin welder, which many of you know welder beats can win games at times.

Tog will win games matches and tournements simply because it can. It will win even if the opponent's deck can cast "better" cards because it has the power to handle such situations.

This deck was a strong deck for a reason, and the reason wasnt gush( that made it stupid ), the reason was yawgmoths will.Any deck that can setup and protect a yawgmoths will has some chance of winning and this is why tog will not just fade away.

[Anders Noer]

I'm not sure I follow the trend in this thread about Tog being a bad card.

It is so close to Tinker-Colossus in power level, that I find it amusing to see people diss the Tog, while advocating Tinker.

Tog kills in two swings just as often as Darksteel colossus does. And you can play 3 if you like.

What makes Tog interesting to me at the moment, is the fact that combo decks seem to be everywhere right now (mainly gifts).
There is no other deck I'd rather pilot against combo, than Tog. it has the nice blue counters and adds Duress which is obv a total house vs. combo. On top of that even REBs if deemed necessary. Fish may be better vs. some combo decks, but Tog is so versatile that it can handle a wide open metagame as we see now.

[NastyNate]

I'm so tired of hearing that Yawgmoth's will is the win condition in every deck. Many decks can and do win without ever casting it. The more a deck is built to rely on Yawg-Win for victory, the more vulnerable to workshop prison, or pro-active disruption in general, the deck becomes. Yawgmoth's Will is a bomb for certain, and resolving it often wins games, but stating that it is the win condition in deck X, makes it seem as though the only way to win games in this format is with will. This assertion is blatantly false.

I do agree that tog may have an engine that sets up and protects Yawg-win better than any other deck, but if you are relying on will to win for you, why play anything other than gifts or death long? These decks are built to win upon resolution of will more than any thing else, and yet neither is dominant.

The big splashy win is not the only path to victory; this is why decks like stax and control slaver win more games than other decks. They can go broken at times, but their game plan is not predicated upon the resolution of one spell. An equal balance of broken-ness and consistency are the most successful methods in vintage. Are they not?

Tinker and Yawgmoth's Will are not the only spells that matter, and if they are the only spells that matter to you, than you are being narrow-minded. Some decks, like Oath for example do not even benefit from these spells at all; I would not consider Oath unplayable. Sure it isn't as well equipped to do broken things as gifts, but it still can win games.

Tog is underplayed because of three factors.

A) Without a four color mana base, a casualty of sundering titan and crucible of worlds, it has been forced into a sub-optimal mana configuration in order to maintain stability, which took away some of it's best weapons. Artifact mutation for example

B) A resolved mindslaver makes winning next to impossible. Though Tog can stop mindslaver from resolving, In order to beat control slaver it has to stop mindslaver, tinker, will, goblin welder, and platinum angel, which is a tall order.

C) Other decks abuse the big two (tinker and Yawgmoth's will) better than Tog does. If one can play a deck with a gameplan equally as powerful as Tog, but better able to do broken things, why should you play Tog?

[Godot]

Tog kills in two swings just as often as Darksteel colossus does. And you can play 3 if you like.

But when you're playing a Tog it is orders of magnitude harder to make those 2 turns happen in w/in the first 3 - 4 turns.  They are basically interchangable cards in a long game, but TInker/Colossus is infinitely better in the early game.

[Whatever Works]

This debate about creature efficiency is being soooo overmagnified... The answer is incredibly simple:

1.) Tinker turn 1 wins games... tog turn 1 does not...
2.) Tinker/Collossus says GG to fish (if it resolves turn 1 or turn 30)... Tog is horrible vs. Fish
3.) Tinker is win big... Tog is win small (over and over) until either yawgmoth's will resolves, or card advantage is HEAVILY scewed...

That being said I think every tog list MUST run tinker/collosus for the deck to have any chance in any current metagame regardless if your afraid of welder or not...

There once was a big topic about how tog was the best deck because of strategic superiority... That superiority is a thing of the past, because the metagame changed, and the formats pace changed...Oh and its not exactly easy to play.

In general I agree with Smennen, but his arguements tend to make me look for a dictionary so I simplified it, and added in some concepts that might have been over looked.

Kyle L.

[Anders Noer]

I agree on some of your points, but the way you present them doesn't do anything to convince me any further...

1.) Tinker turn 1 wins games... tog turn 1 does not...

True - this random fact, can't be denied. It is however uncomparable that way...
Turn 1 Channel + Fireball wins games, turn 1 FoW + [blue card] does not ?
Tinker decks are made to combo out. Tog is meant to take control of the game and combo out when that has happened.. You can't say decks are bad if they can't win on turn 1.

I do however agree that Tinker is better and more broken than an Atog. I'm just saying that Colossus vs. Tog is a pretty close call.

2.) Tinker/Collossus says GG to fish (if it resolves turn 1 or turn 30)... Tog is horrible vs. Fish

Berserk

3.) Tinker is win big... Tog is win small (over and over)

I don't think I quite understand what you're trying to illustrate here. Sorry.

That being said I think every tog list MUST run tinker/collosus for the deck to have any chance in any current metagame regardless if your afraid of welder or not...

It seems to me that a lot of people think of an early Darksteel Colossus as an invincible win condition... it is far from that as every deck has ways to deal with him by now. Relying on Tinker Colossus is bold. Gifts wins on tendrils most of the time anyway...
Tinker/Colossus is obviously far more vulnerable than 3x tog.

[doylehancock]

2.) Tinker/Collossus says GG to fish (if it resolves turn 1 or turn 30)... Tog is horrible vs. Fish

Berserk



what?

berserk only kills of dsc attacks if he attacks and you berserk you are dead.
please berserk my DSC because I will win

[Revvik]

2.) Tinker/Collossus says GG to fish (if it resolves turn 1 or turn 30)... Tog is horrible vs. Fish

Berserk
-----------------------------
what?

berserk only kills of dsc attacks if he attacks and you berserk you are dead.
please berserk my DSC because I will win

I think you misunderstand completely.
A Berserked Psychatog is often FAR bigger than even a Berserked Darksteel Colossus.  He's also not saying Berserk the opponent's Colossus to kill it.
And Tog is NOT horrible versus Fish - Colossus is.  Especially if you pull your Turn 1 Tinker (the reason it's better than Tog, right?) and your only win condition gets RFG with STP.  Because running more than one Darksteel Colossus is folly.

3.) Tinker is win big... Tog is win small (over and over)

I also don't understand.  Often, where Colossus kills in two turns, Psychatog wins the turn after he was cast (unless he's fulfilling Moat duties - a rarer occasion these days).

I personally think this argument is moot anyways.  The people who think Control Slaver and Meandeck Gifts are better will continue to play those decks until something better comes along.  Fine by me, I'm sick of weakening my sideboard to prepare for the AK mirror.

[Liam-K]

His point is berserk gives tog trample and enough overkill to attack for the win through a field of fishes.

The post he was quoting's point is that DSC is a large change in board position against decks with men and psychatog is not.

I think looking at psychatog as a creature is incorrect, so technically I believe the latter is true but less relevant than it first appears.  Laying tog is not how you win.  Comboing out is how you win.  DSC is a win CONDITION and tog is a win ENABLER.

[keratinx]

DSC is a win CONDITION and tog is a win ENABLER.

I have to agree with Liam-K here. DSC at times is the win condition. The only situation and match-up I can see that is the Fish match up pre boarding. Tinker/Colossus is normally protected for 2 turns and Tog just wins via Colossus. Post board would be brutal for 'Tog because Fish will board in Red Elemental Blast, but 'Tog will have Cunning Wish/Firestorm to back up its winning plan. Tog has become more control than combo these few seasons. You can call it the Neo-4c Control with a more stable mana base and faster win condition

Steve Menedian stated also that Tog cna play without Psychatog and just play Gorilla Shamans in its stead. I'm going to test this theory and see if it works. Right now, I'm satisfied with the list I'm playing.

Psychatog, like Oath of Druids, can play the Aggro or Control role when necessary without being Aggro-Control. This switching of roles is very important during the Fish and Prison match-up. The timing of casting Cunning WIish is crucial to success. Take a game against Cron/Chang 5c Stax. Both these builds have irritating cards like Sphere of Resistance, followed up by Wasteland/Strip Mine. This play, no doubt simple, is GOLDEN. The tempo gained from a resolved Sphere is 1x Time Walk and the Wasteland is another 1x Time Walk. Whether Tog survives the lock depends on whether the CLOCK components are in play, namely, Titan or Karn. If these 2 are not yet out, 'Tog can Wish for a solution at the correct time. My personal favourite is Hurkyl's Recall. More importantly, when one Wishes, his/her game plan is almost and always fixed. So proper planning and correct assumptions will win you the game. Don't be complacient and think that Cunning Wish is out there to out broken and win the game.

[the boogie man]

I kind of feel like debating the red/green issue, because that was largely unsettled. I personally like red, because it is the green that I find superfluous. It seems that people are screwing with their mana base to include berserk exclusively, and that's it. and maybe naturalize. I think that fling is a very viable substitute, while red still brings other game-breaking cards to the table, such as rebs, rack and ruin, gorilla shaman, firestorm, pygmy pyrosaur, and other metagame choices. green over red become even less important when you have tinker-collossus, since metal elvis has trample and is indestructible, requiring less protection.

and I personally think that the "collossus is a win condition and tog is a win enabler" is a load. not to be offensive at all, but tog is collossus without trample, but winning requires you to dump your hand/graveyard, where as collosus is great on it's own, and can randomly win on turn 1. and why would collossus not be able to be a moat? it seems that this argument is moot, because you can just as easily sit back and not attack with collossus, it's just usually a stupid idea. this just further proves that collossus is superior. to me, being able to win through opposing creatures is a better idea that sitting and waiting for your tog to become lethal. if you're aorried about only running1 win condition, then run 1 collossus and 1 tog. that is what I'd do anyway.

the main concern, though, is green vs. red vs. both. I assume that nobody finds it viable to run both colors. since gree has little impact on anything but the sideboard, I'd find it viable to at least try. seeing as how the deck runs around 25 mana sources, here is a provisional base

green or red:
4 underground sea
3 trops;volcanic
4 island
3 delta
2 strand
solomoxencrypt
1 library

both:
3 underground sea
3 delta
2 strand
solomoxencrypt
4 island
2 trops
3 volcani island

is library really all that important ? if it is, then you can remove an island or a volcanic island, seeing as how neither affect the maindeck much, and you're running 5 fetch.

[onelovemachine]

About Tinker Vs. Tog: I agree that Tinker is a better card than psychatog, but I don't think collossus is.  Random turn one tinker adds inconsistency in that half the time you have a turn one tinker and the other half of the time you have an opening hand with darksteel collossus which can't even pitch to force of will.  With mystical and demonic in my list I did do some testing with tinker.  I don't like dead cards and I happen to be the most unlucky player evar because I draw Kevin 70% of the time and tinker only like 30. 

Clearly the win condition is will so it shouldn't matter, but sometimes the optimal game plan doesn't work out and tog swings for the win old school style.  Tinkering up a collossus at Gencon would have been a bad gameplan to have with welders running amok.  Again, I am playing gifts right now and I'm doing well with that too.  But Collossus isn't the strong point of that deck, it just adds a backup plan and a neat trick.  Gifts is the strength of the deck and winning in a single turn with tendrils of agony is far more efficient than tog or colossus, but requires much more setup and is in some ways easier to stop. 

Tog is underplayed because of three factors.

A) Without a four color mana base, a casualty of sundering titan and crucible of worlds, it has been forced into a sub-optimal mana configuration in order to maintain stability, which took away some of it's best weapons. Artifact mutation for example

B) A resolved mindslaver makes winning next to impossible. Though Tog can stop mindslaver from resolving, In order to beat control slaver it has to stop mindslaver, tinker, will, goblin welder, and platinum angel, which is a tall order.

C) Other decks abuse the big two (tinker and Yawgmoth's will) better than Tog does. If one can play a deck with a gameplan equally as powerful as Tog, but better able to do broken things, why should you play Tog?
 

These are the most commonly accepted misconceptions about tog.  Sundering titan and cow have nothing to do with the fact that tog needs a consistent mana base to win.  Every control deck in the format needs at least 10 basics/ fetches to not get hosed by stax and fish.  Slaver isn't even playing platz, but when it was there was no problem with that.  Against that deck tog needs to prevent tinker, will, and thirst.  Welder is a little beater without his backup and at some point he is either killed, shut off or trampled over.  Other decks abuse tinker better because they retrieve mindslaver which is broken, but if you want tog to be able to turn one tinker up a collossus then fit it in and DO IT.     It has no less capability there.  Togs will is as broken as every decks except for gifts at times.  Sometimes gifts doesn't need to timewalk to win which is pretty ridiculous, but as long as your opponent doesn't ever get another turn it really doesn't matter if tog does.

Psychatog can play the Aggro or Control role when necessary without being Aggro-Control. This switching of roles is very important during the Fish and Prison match-up. 

I could not have put that better.  The people that do well with tog understand how to switch roles and at which points.  It is all about "who is the beatdown" the whole time you are playing tog.  You can be the control deck and then suddenly switch roles to the aggro, or be in the aggro role and see a situation developing that will not allow you to combo out and change roles there. 

[xrizzo]

All of these arguments about Tog v. DSC assume that you have to run one or the other...  I personally agree that DSC is just better, and you don't need to waste any slots on Togs, but there have been multiple Tog & DSC lists from Italy emerging as successful.  A quick search for 'T1 Tog' gives the following couple lists:

T1 Tog

3 Island
4 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Library Of Alexandria
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring

3 Duress
1 Mind Twist
4 Mana Drain
4 Force Of Will

4 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Accumulated Knowledge
2 Deep Analysis

3 Intuition
4 Cunning Wish
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Tinker
1 Time Walk
1 Yawgmoth's Will

1 Engineered Explosives

1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Psychatog


Sideboard:
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Fact Or Fiction
1 Firestorm
1 Fling
1 Gush
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Chain Of Vapor
1 Misdirection
1 Pyroblast
1 Rack And Ruin
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Rushing River
1 Shattering Pulse
1 Snuff Out
1 Stifle

and...

Lorenzo Fedeli - T1Tog

4 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
3 Island
2 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol ring
1 Library of Alexandria

4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
4 Accumulated Knowledge
2 Deep analysis
3 Intuition
4 Brainstorm
4 Cunning Wish
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Psychatog
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
4 Duress

SIDEBOARD:

1 Fling
1 Firestorm
1 Lava Dart
1 Snuff Out
1 Stifle
1 chain of Vapor
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Shattering Pulse
1 Rack and Ruin
1 Rushing River
1 Gush
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Misdirection

Tog and DSC need not be mutually exclusive.

[spawn]

@the boogie man:

I agree with you that red is the better coulor to run, and 4c is not an option.

green gets you:
oxidize
naturalize
berserk
groundseal

while red gives you:

fling(in my opinion, in many ways better than berserk)
Rack&ruin
Lavadart/fire(good against welders)
shaman
red elemental blast

also, i think library sucks.(in almost every deck)

Smmenen: "I think Tog is now a terrible card.  Tog has gone from being, in my view, the best creature in type one to mediocre."

-Has tog ever been better than Goblin Welder??

@xrizzo:

I think its VERY bad just to run 1 win condition(tinker/dsc)
any deck should run a secondary win condition, tog is the best suitable win after tinker/dsc.
althogh 3 togs is too much.

I dont see any reason for not including tinker/dsc in any deck that uses 8solomoxencrypt.

I think 4 cunning wishes is needed, and a big wishboard.
And I think deep analysis is way too slow(in a combo meta), it could be sided in against control maby.

/spawn

[forests failed you]

Green also gets you deed.  Quality of cards wins games.

[Liam-K]

and I personally think that the "collossus is a win condition and tog is a win enabler" is a load. not to be offensive at all, but tog is collossus without trample, but winning requires you to dump your hand/graveyard, where as collosus is great on it's own, and can randomly win on turn 1. and why would collossus not be able to be a moat? it seems that this argument is moot, because you can just as easily sit back and not attack with collossus, it's just usually a stupid idea. this just further proves that collossus is superior. to me, being able to win through opposing creatures is a better idea that sitting and waiting for your tog to become lethal. if you're aorried about only running1 win condition, then run 1 collossus and 1 tog. that is what I'd do anyway.

I'm not sure if you're agreeing with me here or not, but you're definitely making my point.  DSC wins by being played, Tog wins by being in play when condition X is met.  Condition X (met by abuse of yawgwill most of the time) is the condition that allows you to win with tog (grammar usage = "win condition").  DSC being in play IS DSC's condition X, therefor DSC is a condition that allows you to win the game/win condition.

My point is Tog is to Tog as Tendrils is to Deathlong.  Tendrils deals the lethal damage, but it is NOT what wins you the game.  It's the card that enables your win condition (9 storm + 2BB), just like Tog is the card that enables your win condition (a lot of cards in hand/graveyard).

If you want evidence to the point, search the type 1 forum for "counter the tog" in posts by JP, and compare that sort of thinking with how you use your counters against Long.  You don't counter tendrils, you counter the "scare resource" as the phrase was coined (or as I think of it, time your counter such that it stops their spell chain).

[Smmenen]

DSC is a win CONDITION and tog is a win ENABLER.

I have to agree with Liam-K here. DSC at times is the win condition. The only situation and match-up I can see that is the Fish match up pre boarding. Tinker/Colossus is normally protected for 2 turns and Tog just wins via Colossus. Post board would be brutal for 'Tog because Fish will board in Red Elemental Blast, but 'Tog will have Cunning Wish/Firestorm to back up its winning plan. Tog has become more control than combo these few seasons. You can call it the Neo-4c Control with a more stable mana base and faster win condition

Steve Menedian stated also that Tog cna play without Psychatog and just play Gorilla Shamans in its stead. I'm going to test this theory and see if it works. Right now, I'm satisfied with the list I'm playing.

What I said was that you can go:

-3 Tog
+ 1 Tinker
+ 1 Colossus
+ 1 Shaman

And be fine.

I didn't say you could just cut Togs for Shamans - but you can cut Togs for Shamans + Tinker/Colossus. 

[Moxlotus]

Green also gets you deed.  Quality of cards wins games.

Engineered Explosives is better a lot of the time.

[keratinx]

DSC is a win CONDITION and tog is a win ENABLER.

I have to agree with Liam-K here. DSC at times is the win condition. The only situation and match-up I can see that is the Fish match up pre boarding. Tinker/Colossus is normally protected for 2 turns and Tog just wins via Colossus. Post board would be brutal for 'Tog because Fish will board in Red Elemental Blast, but 'Tog will have Cunning Wish/Firestorm to back up its winning plan. Tog has become more control than combo these few seasons. You can call it the Neo-4c Control with a more stable mana base and faster win condition

Steve Menedian stated also that Tog cna play without Psychatog and just play Gorilla Shamans in its stead. I'm going to test this theory and see if it works. Right now, I'm satisfied with the list I'm playing.

What I said was that you can go:

-3 Tog
+ 1 Tinker
+ 1 Colossus
+ 1 Shaman

And be fine.

I didn't say you could just cut Togs for Shamans - but you can cut Togs for Shamans + Tinker/Colossus. 

@Smmenen: Yup, I get what you mean. My Tog list can be found on page 1 that is highly similar to that of the previous 2 lists that xrizzo posted that runs only 1 Psychatog and Tinker/Colossus. I haven't tested out the Gorilla Shaman over Tog thingy, perhaps you can give us some insights on why Shaman is a more efficient inclusion over Tog. Another question is that whether Tog needs Library of Alexandria, and how should the mana base look like if I'm playing Ubr Tog. This is my mana base at the moment.

4 Island
5 Fetches
5 Moxen
1 Lotus
1 Sol Ring
4 Volcanic Island
4 Underground Sea

[Moxlotus]

Is there a reason not to play Mana Crypt?  It allows for turn 1 Wishes or Intuitions.

Also, pulling ideas from Meandeck Gifts, do you need the full complements of both duals?  Especially the Volcanics.

[keratinx]

@Smemnen: Gorilla Shamans did wonders, gaining advantage and at the same time, improved the match-up against 5c Stax. Got rid of poesky artifacts like Pithing Needle, Null Rods, Chalices, etc However, I still found Psychatog to be another kill condition in the deck. Here is my revised list.

T1T 2k5 ver1.0

3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Island
4 Volcanic Island
4 Underground Sea
7 SoloMoxen

1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Psychatog
1 Darksteel Colossus

1 Engineered Explosives

4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
2 Duress

1 Demonic Tutor
1 Tinker
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Mind Twist

4 Brainstorm
4 Accumulated Knowledge
3 Intuition
2 Deep Analysis
4 Cunning Wish
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk

SIDEBOARD

1 Fact or Fiction
1 Firestorm
1 Fling
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Lava Dart or Fire/Ice
1 Misdirection
2 Rack and Ruin
1 Gush
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Rushing River
1 Shattering Pulse
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Snuff Out
1 Stifle

I took out both Misdirection and Skeletal Scrying from the sideboard to add in Gush and Vampiric Tutor. Initially, I tested the original version with the sideboarded Skeletal Scrying and found that it had synergistic factors with Cunning Wish. It's like a regrowth factor without needing the tog to be in the field. However, I found that paying 2 life is much better than playing >3 to draw cards when you can find the game ending Yawgmoth's Will or a utility card like Shaman. In addition, since I took out the mainboarded Mystical Tutor for Gorilla Shaman, I felt that Vamp Tutor deserves a place in the sideboard to function as how Mystical Tutor functioned in the mainboard. Regarding Gush, I found that it won many games 2-3 turns earlier with Psychatog. Cunning Wish/Gush is often (NOT EVERYTIME) a game winning combo by itself.

[forests failed you]

Firstly, that list looks absolutely awful to me, it doesn't look metagamed to beat anything in the format.  The mana base of 8 dual lands is way to many, and I don't think that you can beat Fish with their Wastelands and Chalices.  Secondly, Engineered Explosives is much better in control decks that play some combination of Wasteland, Strip Mine and Library so that you can play it for zero to kill opposing Moxes and Chalices.  Also, I would not play Mind Twist in the main right now, because everybody seems to think Misdirection is such a savage maindeck card. 

I think it is also important to note that Tog is not a mainstream deck; rather, it is a metagame deck that can be tweaked to do very specific things and win quite handily against very specific matchups.   One of the key bonuses, or reasons to play Tog, is its consistency of draws.  It plays very similarly to its old extended counterpart, because it draws a shitload of cards, plays situational answers to things that slip through the counterwall that it can easily find via Wish or Scroll, and gets to Yawgmoth's Will on average a turn before the other control decks.  In this sense Tog is very similar in style to Gifts.

I think it is unfair to say that Tog is a bad card, or that it is outdated.  The little guy is a savage creature and a wonderful combo piece all built into one.  Styles and metagames change and decks go in and out of fashion with players; right now Gifts is is the fast control deck of choice.  And that is fine, it is a good deck.  However, a deck like Tog can be an absolutely savvy metagame choice, as Josh Franklin clearly proved.  Playing the correct deck is a difficult thing to do.  One must evaluate and predict the metagame and then chose a decklist that is able to beat whatever one predicts.  Even more importantly, one must predict correctly. 

Playing Gorilla Shaman's and Engineered Explosives in a deck that wants to race to Yawgmoth's Will is an awful decision.  If one wants to play that particular style play a slower control deck that actually wants to control the board and build up.  Slaver or 3cc are both good examples of decks that might utilize this strategy.  Josh Franklin hit the nail right on the head, if you speed Tog up and give it consistency you can actually race the other control decks and outdraw one's opposition.  Merchant Scroll in the maindeck is an extremely powerful addition, and the fact that you can scroll for Echoing Truth and other maindeck situational cards, as well as Recall or Intuition makes his list clearly better than one that runs Gorilla Shaman and Explosives. 

Also, Tog is a much better threat against FCG and correct builds of fish. I cannot stress this enough, Psychatog kills an opponent in one turn.  Draksteel takes two swings.  Psychatog races better than any other creature in the game.  Also, the issue of Duress.  Duress is only good against Combo, because that is the only match up in Magic where I would be willing to spend my mainphase mana (tempo) and a card to trade for one of my opponents cards.  It is usually a much stronger strategy to just play your own threats and make an opponent react to you. 

And, in my opinion as powerful as paying 3 mana and and artifact to play an 11/11 guy is, adding the Tinker / Colossus combo to every single deck seems 'newbalicious' to me.  Decks don't need the option of doing that to win.  If your deck is streamlined to do a specific job, and the pilot understands how to do that job correctly, then one shouldn't need to rely on the Colossus Crutch to win games.  Cutting Psychatogs from a Tog deck simply means that ones gameplan becomes more muddled and uncertain.  Not only is Colossus a dead card when he is in your hand, but he also makes Tinker a dead card.  Tog is almost never dead.  He pitches to Force of Will and is an extremely aggressive threat, especially against Stax.  There is nothing I hate more when playing a slow Stax hand than an early beatdown Psychatog, because he wins the game.

Tog is a metagame deck.  In order for the deck to be good, one has to evaluate the metagame and play with a variant of the deck that can win against a predicted field.  Franklin did this with his Green-Atog list, and it paid off in spades.  However, Tog has never been a deck that rewarded netdeckers. or somekind of standardized version of the deck, the way that Stax and Slaver do.  Tog has many, many, open card slots and it takes a really strong player to figure out what they should be for any given tournament.

[cosineme]

onelovemachine - the list is tight, but running 4x each of trops and u seas seems excessive. is there any reason you chose not to run sol ring...one of the best mana enabler's in tog? i can't really see any reason not to run the sol ring for either a trop or sea (trop most likely) especially given the fact your mana base is already fairly strong. 

also, this brings up another point. at what point is an additional basic island redundant? it seems as if 3x basic islands in play is good enough to overcome most any situation. 4x basic islands in play would be even better, but is 5x redundant of 4x islands in play? Obviously I'm not talking about the total amount of mana, just the amount of mana

[Mr. Sligh]

3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Island
4 Volcanic Island
4 Underground Sea
7 SoloMoxen
1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Psychatog
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
2 Duress
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Tinker
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Mind Twist
4 Brainstorm
4 Accumulated Knowledge
3 Intuition
2 Deep Analysis
4 Cunning Wish
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk

SIDEBOARD
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Firestorm
1 Fling
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Lava Dart or Fire/Ice
1 Misdirection
2 Rack and Ruin
1 Gush
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Rushing River
1 Shattering Pulse
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Snuff Out
1 Stifle

Hi all!!! I'm a new registered italian player (so sorry for my bad english ).. I have read very carefully this discussion and I have understood you have a different kind to build a tog deck... In italy this deck is very used by all the most famous players (like Lorenzo Fedeli for example) and me too i play this deck for a small time  ... so I want to ask you something about your build... here is my list, for the most curios users  :

MAINDECK
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Library of Alexandria
3 Volcanic Island
3 Island
4 Undergroud Sea
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
3 Intuition
4 Ak
2 Deep Analisys
3 Duress
1 Mind Twist
1 Psicatog
1 Tinker
1 Darkstell's Colossus
4 Brainstorm
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Yawgmoth’s Will
1 Demoniac Tutor
4 Cunning Wish
1 Mystical Tutor

SIDEBOARD
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Fling
1 Lava Dart
1 Snuff Out
1 Hurkyl’s Recall
1 Firestorm
1 Shattering Pulse
2 Misdirection
1 Rushing River
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Rack and Ruin
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Gush

now you can see i use your's list with some little difference: 3 duress no e.e. no shaman no vampiric
... welll so my final question is: this building choices, that you have done bacause of your particular meta-game, very different for my own, is better than mine choices??? gorilla shaman is a good card in this deck??? is it important to do denial with this deck??? Well i don't know the answer but i think tog is one pf the most powerfull tier1 in europe and imho slots like vampiric tutor in side can probably be improved... while e.e. in an aggro-fast creature with low casting cost metagame it can be the difference...
Thanks for attention and i wait your reply to my answer and my consideration...

p.s. Little OT (sorry  ): Do someone of this forum come to Doomsday in Italy next Sunday??? i may post it in Tournament Forum but i can't...  .... sorry again...

[Vegeta2711]

Also, Tog is a much better threat against FCG and correct builds of fish.

Not really. FCG is going to race Tog in the majority of it's games if it's playing Tog or Tinker -> DSC. In fact the only real difference I've ever noticed is turn 1 DSC has a decent chance of racing me. Tog is a cute little 1/2 wall that's blue, nuff said about that.

Since I don't know what your definition of 'correct' fish is, I'll leave that for now.

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

Does Lorenzo have a TMD account? His list at GenCon was pretty savage, as he T8ed with it in the $500 event. I remember watching him crush Lou. It was a bit weird, as it had merchant scrolls and a single recoup. I don't think he ran tog, just tinker-colossus. It also didn't have green. The recoup did seems pretty savage, as he'd just recoup duress half the time. It also works wonders when you intuition for lotus/will/recoup.

On another note, why is everyone running deep analysis? It's such crap right now. You almost HAVE to intuition for it first, and it's sorcery-speed draw. Plus, AK is almost non-existant in the format. merchant scroll should be a good substitute.

I'm still on the side that says tog sucks. You need to invest so much inorder to make him big. Intuition, AK, cunning wish. With a deck like Gifts, all you need to do is resolve gifts for the setup. With Slaver it's more like hit 5 mana and a welder. The only advantage i can see with Intuition (over gifts) is that you can intuition on your turn 2(before drain comes online) and then cast your ak with drain backup. Even then, you're only drawing 3 cards, as opposed to setting up the win.

-Bob

[Anders Noer]

I agree with you that red is the better coulor to run, and 4c is not an option.

green gets you:
oxidize
naturalize
berserk
groundseal

while red gives you:

fling(in my opinion, in many ways better than berserk)
Rack&ruin
Lavadart/fire(good against welders)
shaman
red elemental blast

also, i think library sucks.(in almost every deck)

Ground Seal > Lava Dart
Berserk >>>>>>(Brushwagg)>> Fling
Rack and Ruin is Savage, no discussion there. But Oxidize/Energy Flux gets the job done as well (albeit with less ease).
Naturalize is nice and all, nut it sits in your board filling up a slot, being used only once every 6th or 7th game until you finally switch it for an(other) Echoing Truth.
Duress > Red Elemental Blast pretty much most of the time.

I see very little reason to play red. Shaman is no argument to me as I agree with our italian friend, who questions: "Does tog really need mana denial ?"
Chalice may be huge in some areas in America, but is a rare sight in Europe these days... It is not to be feared. If it rears its ugly head, Cunning Wish will solve it with Oxidize or Echoing Truth.

I myself would stick to a more controllish version than the explosive 4x Merchant Scroll list. I'd rather have instant draw and more disruption. No Tinker for me either at the moment, but it's random win effect might push me over - especially since i play Berserk for utter b0rkenness