Jungle Lion Stompy {G/W}

[Goatman]

Essentially the goal of the deck is very similar to Oshawa and GPR2. Slow the game down via hate cards (null rod and root maze), potentially wreck the opponent's mana base via strips and rod, all the while beating face for the win. The sometimes inconsistent madness engine has been abandoned for smaller bodies and the availability of more hate in the form of swords and Kataki. Swords seems integral to any aggro strategy with colossus being the win condition of choice for just about every control and combo-control deck. Anyway, onto the list and breakdown:

4 Jungle Lion
4 Wild Mongrel
4 Basking Rootwalla
2 Kataki, War's Wage

4 Rancor

4 Root Maze
4 Null Rod
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Choke
1 Black Vise

4 Land Grant
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Mox Emerald
3 Treetop Village
3 Savannah
6 Forest

Sideboard:
4 Armadillo Cloak
4 Naturalize
3 Oxidize
3 Sacred Ground
1 Choke

Jungle Lion: 2/1 for G, nice artwork, no drawback, how can you go wrong? A relatively quick clock with a rancor strapped around it's neck.

Wild Mongrel/Basking Rootwalla: Solid fast drops, both easily start swinging second turn for 3 or more.

Kataki: Energy flux on a stick, beats face when rancored.

Rancor: Standard stompy fare, makes little guys beat harder.

Root Maze: Slows everything down immensely, especially with a reliance on fetches with basics. It compounds drastically when dealing with decks relying heavily on artifact mana. The added bonus of hosing dragon is cute too.

Null Rod: More mana denial, and anti-vial tech.

Swords to Plowshares: Sending colossus farming is it's main role, but is perfectly content working on welders, karn, and grumpy old men of the sea.

Choke: I hate control, what can I say? If I get it working with maze, well, it's sexy.

Black Vise: With a mana denial theme, an opponent with a full grip won't be hard to come by. Why not capitalize on that?

Sideboard:

Armadillo Cloak: Yep, jank common, loved it in draft... Against fishy things and other weenie aggro it has been absolute gold. A cloaked mongrel beats face and makes for a sometimes insurmountable life swing.

Naturalize: Busts chalice set at 1 and Oath, two of my biggest problems.

Oxidize: Stax seems to be quite a fixture in the vintage meta, and this couples with naturalize and sacred ground to hose it.

Sacred Ground: Anti-Stax tech

There we have it. I have won a little tournament around against everything from circa 2003 gay red to gifts slaver, and t8ed in 2 others. Any thoughts on better card choices would be really great, I'm anxious for some feedback and criticism.

[Moxlotus]

I can see how this is decent against Mana Drain, but how does this deck not roll to Workshops?

[Goatman]

Preboard I have Kataki and root maze to slow them down, which may or may not be enough. I haven't played against any shop decks as there aren't any around for me to try against. Post board I have 4 natuarlize and 3 oxidize, plus against stax I have sacred ground. Again, not quite sure if it's enough but 10 sideboard answers to stax and shop aggro sounds pretty potent to me.

[Prometheon]

Maindeck Choke is SUCH a beating right now.

A cool little trend has been popping up in VIntage lately; 2 color 'janky' aggro decks. From the well established u/w and u/g fish archetypes, to the much discussed r/w hate deck, to the semi-established r/g beatz and now this. There really is a ton of innovation going on in the aggro department, which is good to see.

A BRUTAL card in this kind of deck is Winter Orb. if you can get a Rod, Chalice, or Kataki down to nullify artifact mana, Winter Orb will desecrate your opponent. I'd definatly test it as a 2 or 3 of.

[Goatman]

I had thought about it, my question is what to cut? My dilemma is that I don't want to get rid of any of my threat density, nor do I want to cut the MD hate I'm running since it would defeat the purpose of the winter orbs in the end anyway. Two color jank aggro stretches back to gay red and u/g madness, but has kept drifting farther towards aggressive disruption as opposed to aggro control. It's a trend I kind of like seeing in that people are finding ways to make decks without a standard starting point of "4 Force of Will." I see MD choke as a HUGE beating, but I find the 3cc to sometimes be 1 too much to get it down when I really want it to, especially when I am under a root maze. Maybe it's the weak link that I'll cut for Orb, what does everyone else think?

Also there is a creature in Ravnica called Watchwolf which my be a perfect fit at a 3/3 for GW. Again my dilemma is what to cut... Jungle Lion is the most efficient 1 drop green has, and the dynamic duo of Superdog and Wonderwalla are pretty sweet. Kataki isn't really counted as a creature, more like hate on a stick. Thoughts on the new gold doggy?

[Ocat]

I would prever Jitte above Armadillo cloak. although jitte does not give trample it does give a way to get rid of creatures by giving them -1/-1 and you can choose to either gain a 2 or 4 life or just do more damage when you dont need the extra lifepoints.

[lordmayhem]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Sacred Ground won't work against Smokestack since you're the one that chose the permanent to get sac'd. If I am correct, then Crucible might be the spell you are looking for.

The idea behind maindeck Choke is excellent and I love it.

@Ocat: How would you replace Rod's disruption to include Jitte?

[yespuhyren]

It works against smokestack because they smokestack is their permanent, therefore, when your land is put into your GY, it is from a source, being the permanent, that they control, and as such sacred ground triggers

[Moxlotus]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Sacred Ground won't work against Smokestack since you're the one that chose the permanent to get sac'd.

Wrong.  It doesn't matter that you chose that permanent.  The effect that is forcing you to put a land into your grave is controlled by the opponent-so it works.  It's on last week's Saturday School or a SCG Ask the Judge or something recently.

[lordmayhem]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Sacred Ground won't work against Smokestack since you're the one that chose the permanent to get sac'd.

Wrong.  It doesn't matter that you chose that permanent.  The effect that is forcing you to put a land into your grave is controlled by the opponent-so it works.  It's on last week's Saturday School or a SCG Ask the Judge or something recently.

*looks it up*

Heh. Damn. Live and learn. Can't suggest using CoW for recurring wastes either thanks to Maze. Sacred Ground it is.

[karlake]

Why not remove Mongrel&Rootwalla for Watchwoolf and another onedrop (Savannah lions, skyshroud elite)?

[LouGodKingofDustBunnys]

Why not remove Mongrel&Rootwalla for Watchwoolf and another onedrop (Savannah lions, skyshroud elite)?

It's Simple. Mongrel and Rootwalla do more damage over the long run then Watchwolf and any random one drop. For you to even have asked this question it makes me wonder if you have ever played with Mongrel, and if you haven't try it. Mongrel is simply (for a creature) insane.

[TheStu]

Looking at Ravnica, I can see 2 cards that would be possible fits in this deck.

First is the much-discussed Suppression Field (1W Enchantment; Activated Abilities cost 2 more to play unless they're mana abilities). Even more hate, slows down a lot of relevant threats to your deck, like Jitte & Triskelion, as well as opposing welders, fetches, bazaars and anything else relevant in the format.

Second is Life from the Loam. This card has to be one of the more broken ones in Rav. I have found a multitude of uses for this card already (With trade routes in standard, tog fuel w/ cephalid coliseum in ext), and vintage is no different. This card digs deep for lands when you're hurting, as well as recurring strip mine and wasteland, and feeding your wild mongrels.

[MaxxMatt]

I think that StPs are uneeded in a deck such as this one.
Root Maze steals a full turn to your opponent
You have larger beasts
You can easily race you opponent's turn 2 DSC with ease, without wasting other space with pseudo-solutions.
Add 4 creatures with good abilities in these 4 spots and you would achieve this goal far easier that plowing away the random early DSC.

I would suggest you 4 River's Boa for an enviroment with a lot of Island-based control decks.
They have a nice ability against the same decks against which you would have played StPs, but they are more sinergiistic with all the deck.

You can add some StPs in the board to be safer during game 2 and 3.
 
I really appreciate Choke maindeck. They are a real pain in the ass for all the control decks and a possibily usual start with Land, ESG, Lion, Maze cannot be improved more if not through a second or third turn Choke.

Nice job!.

[vroman]

one thing Ive noticed when playing against crappy aggro decks is that rancor works against smokestack as a recurring permanent. Ive also noticed that these kind of decks fold to turn 1 chalice @ 1. winter orb would be terrible in this deck; you untap a forest, I untap workshop.

my advice: if your deck is functionaly identical to a legacy deck, then you should play legacy.

[Goatman]

Wow, lots of response...

@OCat: Since I can't rely on blinding speed or the ability to say no I need the disruptive ability of null rod on board. Jitte is cute, but here I think the dildo cloak just makes more sense. In the games it is brought in for it has shown itself to be brutal, and usually another crap aggro deck can't get past life gain, especially on a 4/3 or bigger body.

@LordMayhem: Crucible of worlds as anti-Stax tech seems counter-intuitive to me with sacred ground available. Getting a recurring strip or even waste going, and being able to get 3 mana to drop it soon enough to matter is also a problem. Then of course there's the whole "add a second counter" tech... sacred ground just seems like a bigger beating for Stax, just my opinion though.

@TheStu: I'm not a huge fan of either of them, and actually think suppression field would eat donkey balls. Making my mongrels, rootwallas, and wastelands not work is not the best of ideas. As for Life from the Loam, I really don't think it's effect is profound enough to warrant inclusion.

@MaxxMatt: How exactly does a 4/1 jungle lion or even a 5/2 mongrel race a colossus? I think swords is integral to the deck's targetted game, namely control and control/combo. As for river boa, he sounds great but I run into the same problem with him as I do with Watchwolf since I'm leaving the plows.

[policehq]

I love Root Maze as disruption, but when you topdeck a Plains or Land Grant trying to find a Plains, and your opponent has an untapped Wasteland, and you need to cast Swords to Plowshares (and with little guys only, this happens a lot), things get very sad. Maybe you should play Null Rods in their place.

[Arvid]

I think you instead of 2 Kataki, 4 Null Rod should play a 3/3 configuration. Extra Null Rods are useless and Kataki can join the beatdown.

The new dual from Ravnica could be tech (with Root Maze) if you want more duals or don't like Land Grant enough.

I play a similar archetype (WW/u) and what I miss most is a Seal of Cleansing- or at least Oxidize-type of creature (Kami of Ancient Law exists but it's too narrow), since I don't want to play the actual spells (Seal etc.) since they can't attack. So if I were to play the color green I would strongly playtest Viridian Zealot or Elvish Scrapper.

[Goatman]

@policehq: The decks that play wastelands don't play colossus which is plow's main role. Also I already play 4 rods along with the 4 mazes. One doesn't do the other's job any better, they have their own role. Rod shuts down permanently, root maze buys me the critical turn to go lethal or set up further. Also, zealot doesnt go online until turn 2 when I am extremely lucky, and turn 3 if I'm only somewhat. As for scrapper, he cant beat and do his job, takes a turn to get online, and isn't a substantial body for cost.

@Arvid: I already only play 2 savannahs, so why exactly would I want to play a new dual without a full compliment of savannahs (which is completely unnecessary). As for the 3 Katakis, pulling a second one is bad stuff, and doesn't fill the mana denial role that rod does. A first turn rod is sexy, first turn Kataki, not so much.

[Arvid]

If you don't play full set of Savannah, you're right.

Pulling a 2nd Kataki is as non-sexy as pulling a 2nd Null Rod imo.


Ever considered Suppression Field?

[Fubar]

no fetches?  this would get you more access to white allowing you to play ww spells, esp. samurai which is one of the best hate cards I can think of around.  If your worried about stax, doesn't post board serenity lay the beats?  While river boa is a great weenie, choke is a better slot in that meta, unless you need more men. (if say, you're gong the equipment route)
Can someone tell me why jungle lion is better than lions or ismaru?

[mr_rogers]

Can someone tell me why jungle lion is better than lions or ismaru?

It's better then Ismaru because it's not a legend.  Savannah Lions are better though, but looks like Goatman went more heavily into the green creatures. 

[bebe]

I've played G/w off and on for a few years and even wrote a mini primer on it about a year5 and half ago - might be searchable.
I have no plans on changing my list for awhile as it competes against most archtypes as is. Here is what I use now ...

Threats - 19
4 Savannah Lions
4 River Boa
4 Rogue Elephant
4 Skyshroud Elite
3 Quirion Ranger

Pump/Removal - 14
4 Rancor
4 Giant Growth
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Wax/Wane

Disruption - 8
3 Null Rod
3 Root Maze
2 Choke

Mana - 18
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Land Grant
4 Savannah
3 Forest
3 Temple Garden


Sideboard - 15
3 Serenity
3 Oxidize
3 Naturalize
3 Rule of Law
3 Tivadar’s Crusade

Things I've found about playing GW -
You need to win as fast as possible. Protracted games will almost always result in a loss. To that effect a minimum of eight pump spells are required.
The best spell in the deck by far is StP. All the other hate spells ( other than wax/wane which is ALWAYS useful) are somewhat conditional at times. You need to try and get lucky game one and then bring in what you need from the side. 
The bigger and faster the creature the better - despite the drawback of a Rogue Elepahnt, he is a very fast beast when Rancored and Growthed. Rangers are your friend - the deck is mana light and he often provides the extra boost you need - you can always attack with him.
You need to be as aggressive as possible when playing this deck. The hate is secondary to laying down the quick beats.
Sideboard -
Well it is metagamed. I hate being beat by FCG - you will be without Tivador's. Serenity is awesome - it has won me a number of games. The Rule of Laws are either a complete bust or a game saver but what else do we have?

[Goatman]

After some ideas from here and outside TMD the deck has been changed up a bit. For reasons why I'm not using suppression field, see the earlier posts. For reasons why I'm not using fetches, please read root maze. First turn null rod good, first turn Kitaki bad, so 4 null rods makes it that much more likely one will drop turn 1. Jungle Lion is better than savannah and isamaru because he's green, plain and simple. The deck is base green with splashed white. Commiting to more white forces huge manabase adjustments, and I'm not a huge fan of having to ditch root maze for fetches. Anyway, here's the new list:

//NAME: Jungle Lion Stompy

SB:  3 Sacred Ground
SB:  4 Armadillo Cloak
SB:  3 Oxidize
SB:  4 Naturalize
SB:  1 Choke

        4 Mishra's Factory
        4 Forest
        1 Plains
        4 Savannah
        1 Strip Mine
        4 Wasteland
        1 Mox Emerald
        4 Elvish Spirit Guide
       
        1 Black Vise
        3 Choke
        4 Swords to Plowshares
        4 Null Rod
        4 Root Maze
        4 Rancor
       
        2 Kataki, War's Wage
        3 Watchwolf
        4 Basking Rootwalla
        4 Wild Mongrel
        4 Jungle Lion

I'm finding the moderate thinning ability of land grant pretty lackluster, so I opted to run a full compliment of factories in their place. Watchwolf is a beating, and less needy than the villages I had in his place. I was a bit mana loaded before, so I opted to just ditch the treetops for an actual body. Factories have been absolutely wicked, an extra body and mana source in one, which is exactly the type of swiss army knife the deck needed.

@bebe: Your deck is very different in playstyle than mine. Yours looks to beat face, mine looks much more to deny mana as it beats face. You dont run any strips which really hasn't been in style since the Dojo... Mana denial + Vice is some good, and keeping someone off 4 mana to gifts is even better. The theory of laying men and beating face with no plan ridin shotty doesn't work anymore.

[fatalist.remix]

Jeebus, I'm starting to sound like the people I play with, but:

How is this better than any other aggro strategy?  FCG is faster and almost as disruptive with less dead cards against other aggro, Oath is quite possibly faster and more able to protect itself and also runs less random dead cards.  Furthermore, most of your disruption can be played around effectively due to your rather slow clock.  And like all Stompy, combo will run over you.

That said, I proxied this up.  It's fun, I just don't see it going very far.

[bebe]

You dont run any strips which really hasn't been in style since the Dojo... Mana denial + Vice is some good

I'm now entirely entertained. Thank you for that. You run a single Vice with no means of searching it out. You rely entirely on top decks and believe this to be good approach? I will top deck better with my deck I believe. Factories are your secret tech? They are vulnerable to both non basic hate and creature removal.

My deck was predicated upon the old nine land stompy builds. I use ten lands total. Land Grants serve to thin my deck out allowing me to top deck better. Root Maze as you mentioned runs counter to fetches - not a good thing. EsG can beat if played from my hand which is common after the first ione or two are used as a mana source.

The deck I run has a whole lot of answers without resorting to strips. To get to four mana, you need to stop my rods and  roots from coming down ( the same as in your build) or by the time you hit four mana you will be down to a few life. Yes, my deck has it tough with new Gifts. I don't see your deck doing that much better against it and its weaker in other aspects of the game. It is too slow for an aggro deck and has too few answers for a control deck. I base this on my experience with these arch types. Oshawa was developed here in Toronto by my friend Ray with a little help from me and others. I was one the originators of Fish when only Marc and I played it. I have some exerience with the aggro/control archtype. I don't see G/w as the best mix for that archtype.

We do agree that G/W is an archtype with issues. It remains to be proved that it is any more effective than a ww deck - which can do the same more consistently or even an aggro control u/w deck ( with emphasis on the white creatures ). The only reason to use G/W is to go more aggressive - otherwise I think there are a number of better options. However, I do like the effort put into your deck.
 

[Arvid]

Suppression Field kills your Mongrels, Rootwallas and Wastelands - yes - but it also kills (slows?) welders, bazaars, fetches (even more!) etc. Anyway, I can totally see why you don't want to play it. Although you could playtest a version that replaces Mongrel/Rootwalla with some combination of Savannah Lions, Isamaru, River Boa (no regeneration tough) , Rogue Elephant etc. etc. It'll be a different approach, vanilla creatures with high p/t instead of techy ativated abilities - but I can't see why this approach is the wrong way to go. I mean - Watchwolf is just a plain vanilla beater, right?

[Goatman]

Bebe, we have different theories on what is needed to make the deck perform, so I think we'll just put it to bed before it gets out of hand and the thread gets locked. On a lighter note, for all you with a boner the size of Wisconsin over suppression field, I've made room and adjustments for it's inclusion. I don't know if I like how it feels as much, but I also haven't had a chance to play with it in hand (obviously). Here's the updated list:

4x Jungle Lion
4x Watchwolf
4x Skyshroud Elite
3x Kataki, War's Wage
2x Isamaru, Hound of Konda

4x Root Maze
4x Null Rod
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Suppression Field
3x Choke
1x Black Vise

4x Rancor

4x Land Grant
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Savannah
7x Forest
1x Mox Emerald

I really don't see a need for 3 more duals, so if people could keep conversation on that point to a minimum it would be appreciated. It's been sound theory for thew past year or better that basics are pretty awesome, and I see no reason why this deck doesnt fit into that scheme as well. The sideboard remains unchanged.

[Pave]

You need to win as fast as possible. Protracted games will almost always result in a loss. To that effect a minimum of eight pump spells are required.

@Bebe: Shouldn't at least one of those pump spells be Beserk?

[mr_rogers]

Why Land Grant over Fetchlands?  Fetches are uncounterable and they don't tell your opponent you hand.