Re: Filling out 5 Colour Stax

[Sean Ryan]

I am attempting to renew the discussion on 5c Stax.  Mods, if this warrants a new thread let me know.

Stax, the Chang version in paticular (Welders/Tangle Wire) has had considerable success latley.  Even those who were originally advocating Cronstax ended up running 2 Welders for utility purposes.  However, with the release of Suppression Field Cronstax gains a very powerful weapon.  I am sure many of you have been testing this card as it has obvious potential, but little has been posted on these boards.

Specifically, I am playing in a tournament this wekend and hope to spur discussion on how to best "fill out" Cron Stax with Suppression Field. 

The major weakness of Suppression Field (SF) in a Welderlesss Stax build is that it makes Waste/Strip activation cost 2 mana.  Also, it makes Gorilla Shaman and Engineered Explosives more expensive than they are worth. 

However, the positives have the potential to far out weigh the negatives.  Adding another lock component that can come down off a mox and land is crucial.  First turn SF negates fetchlands and is a must counter for blue control. against control slaver it is especially devastating b/c. they are so dependent on activated abiliities. 

One of the challenges facing Cronstax is how to deal with the large prevalance of Welders which make the smockstack/Crucible lock near impossible.  SF aides in this department but should also be supplemented with other answers to Welders.  Previously, I had been running engineered explosives (EE) but with SF it is much less appealing.

Currently I am running 2xSuppression Field, 1 Gorilla Shaman, and 1 EE.  I am still running 1 EE to deal with welders and random mox clean up. 

Is 2 SF enough?  Originally, t thought that SF did not stack but it appears that they do.  In this case should they be run as a 4 of?  If so Shaman and EE are much worse.  Going down to 1 Shaman hurts but seems neccassary with SF, and remeber we still have chalice at 0. 

I have also moved Chains and In the eye of Chaos back to the maindeck for my paticular meta, full of control.  This has required me to move the Seal of Cleansings to the SB.  My match against the mirror is weakend pre board.  Post board I have Seals, RnR, G. Seal, Hurkyl's Recall.  I'm looking for anti Welder tech both preboard and post board. 

So, basically the question is, "how would you optimize Cron Stax to accomodate Suppression Field, taking into account the current meta dominated by Gifts, Slaver, and Stax?"

Thanks
Sean

         

[Jacob Orlove]

Is 2 SF enough?  I would not run more than 3 as they do not stack.

Just a quick rules note: they do stack.

For reference:
Suppression Field
1W   
Enchantment   
Activated abilities cost 2 more to play unless they’re mana abilities. 

[Disburden]

I think running four Suppression Fields would even be good in Cron Stax since playing this first turn and stacking one again second turn wouldn't be all that bad for you. You would still be able to cast Smokestack or Sphere of Resistance and win the game.

I think a lock in 5C Stax could be as follows:

4 Smokestack
4 sphere of Resistance
4 Suppression field
3 Crucible of worlds
1 Trinisphere
4 Wasteland
1 Strip mine
EDIT: I should also mention that if you have more than once S.Field stacked and then start a Smokestack lock you can sack the fields to the smokestack during your upkeep and then bring out the strip lock in you needed it that badly.

[PipOC]

So, basically the question is, "how would you optimize Cron Stax to accomodate Suppression Field, taking into account the current meta dominated by Gifts, Slaver, and Stax?"

Thanks
Sean

         

I would include none.  Field is almost completely ineffective against gifts as it only slows down 4 fetchlands, and a goblin charbelcher, and pithing needle is just so much better against CS, where you can completely stop the threat that's largest to you at that time, instead of still allowing them an opportunity to pull something off.  It's also more easily castable.  Field also hinders your own ability to effectively control the opposition, gorilla shaman is huge right now.

[Rapalaman1]

I would include none. Field is almost completely ineffective against gifts as it only slows down 4 fetchlands, and a goblin charbelcher, and pithing needle is just so much better against CS, where you can completely stop the threat that's largest to you at that time, instead of still allowing them an opportunity to pull something off. It's also more easily castable. Field also hinders your own ability to effectively control the opposition, gorilla shaman is huge right now.

I completely disagree with this. Pithing Needle sucks in this deck because, like you said, Gorilla Shaman is so popular right now. This is exactly what the deck needs right now, this would probably be the best single spell to play first turn right now (without doing something totally busted, obviously ).
As for the casting cost, it could not be better for the deck. Granted 1 of any mana vs 1 white and 1 colorless, it's obvious what's better, but this deck totally thrives on playing first turn bombs like this that cost either 2U or 1B (artifacts aside). It's not like the white mana is a big deal for the deck.
Finally, depending on what answers you have in the deck (1-2 Explosives,usually 1 Seal of Cleansing or sometimes 1 STP) or which and how many disruption enchantments you play ( most play 2-3 Chains if the meta is going to be Slaver heavy, or 1-2 In the Eye of Chaos if the meta is going to be Gifts heavy), it's tough to say what to take out. I personally have not even tried the card yet but i know i would play at least 2 somewhere, probably more because like I said, it's the strongest first turn play, it's game over for control if you can follow it up with Chalice for 0. So better yet, the deck should play 3-4.

Bob

[Sean Ryan]

@Pipoc

Against Gifts, Suppression Field(SF) is not that great.  This was the primary reason I hadn't made the leap from running 2 SF to the full 4.  However, SF really shines in the mirror and against Slaver in addition to other misc. things (Bazaar, Vial).  Overall, I found C. Slaver to be a tougher match for Stax than Gifts which was what motivated me to add Sfield.  I just don't want to comprimise the integrity of the deck by overloading on SFields.

 I have been running a build with 2 S.Field, 2 Chains, and 2 EyeChaos, as my supplemental lock peices.  Adding the SFields made me drop down to 1 Shaman, 1 EE.  This might be futile and may require a different approach that doesn't include Shaman at all, but as you said, "Shaman is huge."

Another idea I had to work with Sfield was to include H. Recall in place of a Shaman/SealoCleansing.  You bounce their moxes/Artifacts while you have Chalice at 0 and SField out.  Just an idea.

I would love to hear from people who have done testing if you are out there.

Sean

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

Hurkyl's recall is amazing right now. Like you said, if you have sphere or chalice out, it's as good as shaman. It's amazing in the mirror, and also gets around tinker-colossus. That being said, it definitely should replace 2 seal of cleansing (oath is waning in popularity), although seal is a permanent.

Field is tricky. At first glance it seems RIDIC, as it stops pentavus, welders (to an extent) and such, but also, it hurts your shamans tremendously. Paying 3 mana to destroy a mox (and probably using a counter on mine) is not nearly as good as paying 1. I don't think the wasteland issue is as big, as most players will just fetch out islands. I'm testing 3 right now and I'm not sure what to think just yet.

5c stax's biggest issue right now is Gifts. That deck is sick. The fact that they run multiple bounce spells and a quick kill spells trouble for you.

-Bob

[Sean Ryan]

Perhaps, running all 4 Chalices with 2 Hurkyls Recall would allow you not to run Shaman in a build with 3 SFields.  I just makes me cringe not to have a Mox Monkey. 

As far as the Gifts matchup is concerned, there are many nuances involved, many that depend upon the dye roll.  If CronStax is on the play games 1 it has a huge advantage, while Gifts going first game 1 has a slight advantage.  Games 2 and 3 Stax is hurt much worse by going second.  So win that dye roll!  Since adding SField I moved the Chains SB and am keeping 2xIEC MD to help with Giftz. 

If we are running SField does that change our choice of big men?  Should one still go with Karn/Trike or switch to Titan /Dup?  Titan's casting cost is very prohibitive and goes against some of the original designs. However,  Karn would end up being simply a big body with SField out until you start sacking them to a Smokestack and then go i for the kill with an army of Artifacts.  With SField slowing down Welders, Dup sounds like a better plan.

Sean   

[Disburden]

Karn was cut in Uba Stax due to Null Rod. So it can be done.

Also Chang used Titan in his 5C stax build at Gencon and ofcourse titan is always good, and yes I do mean ALWAYs. I don't see a problem with rearranging our creatures to a deck that can hose pretty much everything with Suppression Field. Stax WILL have to be rebuilt somewhat if it wants to fit this card in at full potential.

This is the deck list I was testing last week, but due to work I stopped for a little bit:

The Lock:

4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Smokestack
4 Chalice of the void
3-4 Suppression Field (if you have one more slot you can run Demonic Consultation, Yawgmoth's Will, etc.)
1 Trinisphere
3 Crucible of Worlds

Men:

2 Sundering Titan
1 mox monkey

5c Bombs:

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Balance
1 crop rotation
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vamp Tutor
1 Tinker
2 In the Eye of Chaos
2 Chains of Chains of Mephistopheles

5 Moxen
1 Black Lotus
1 Crypt
1 Vault
1 Sol Ring


4 COB
4 Gemostone Mine
4 Wasteland
1 Strip mine
4 mishra's workshop
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Barbarian ring

The biggest, and I do mean biggest problem I have come across when testing this was you're forced to make a lot of decisions on what you would rather do with yourself in the matchup. Things like this come to mind:

Would Suppression Field or Mox Monkey be a better first turn play in this matchup?

Should I start to find the Crucible Lock or pile more fields on and lose the Crucible lock?

My point is you will have to decide what kind of pressure/ denial is working for you in this matchup you're currently playing and may make Stax even more difficult to master than it already is. I should express the fact that I mentioned earlier though, which is you can always have 3 fields out, play a smokestack and then once that lock kicks in sacc your Fields and play strip mine.

Does anyone have any real matchup analysis?

[vroman]

w/o welders, s-titan is a longshot to hardcast, which only leaves tinker as a win condition. Ive been testing a 5C cronstax derivative w 4 supresion field and found razormane masticore is the preferred singleton fatty to replace karn. also Ive become a huge fan of fastbond + 4 crucibles. this is way better than sacred ground. tolarian acdemy bcomes very important to generate mana to pay for s-field wastland and such. thus denying the opp academy is even more important. premptively crop rotating for academy is frequently worth it, bc lack of academy is probably going to mana screw them more than stripmine, w multiple s-fields on the table if theyre deck is dependent on activations, ie control slaver, fish, ubastax. I dropped eye of chaos bc it cost the most non-shop mana of all the locks and its effect is meta game interchangable w s-field for cheaper

weve been changing the list a lot but this is pretty much it:

4 resistor
4 smoky
4 chalice
4 crucible
4 supressor
1 trisphere
1 razormane
1 monkey
1 ancestral
1 balance
1 crop
1 d-tutor
1 v-tutor
1 d-consult
1 yawgie
1 tinker
1 fastbond
2 chains
lots of mana
3 ice bridge (no gemstones)

sideboard
typical stuff
2 stoneshaker shaman

resolving stoneshaker is actually a bomb against drain decks, and puts them on a mana burn clock if nothing else. tendo has much better synergy w this card than gemstone, which is another subtle reason for the change. Im putting stoneshaker in my ubastax board also.

[Smmenen]

I don't see how your list could possibly be right.  There is no Imperial Seal. 

[Lunar]

@ vroman

razormane masticore is the preferred singleton fatty to replace karn

how has the discard effected you ability to keep dropping permanents? with no welder to take great advantage of the discard effect do you find masticores drawback to be a hassle at times?  Since generally masticore is slower than karn do you ever find opponents taking advantage of 4 turns to get rid of your stuff that is harder to answer without keeping the cards coming in...

obviously in a welder deck masticore is a badass...without welders your only real bonus is with crucible and only then if you are discarding lands to masticore...even then you arent really turning it into an advantage....

just some thoughts.

[vroman]

I don't see how your list could possibly be right.  There is no Imperial Seal. 

thats true, I-seal belongs in there. is that your only criticism?
I havnt tested as much portal as ravnica.

@ lunar
I usually hold back razormane until they have atleast one target, to ensure permanent/hand size parity. the key thing is welder removal that isnt a 1 shot spell or something hosed by multiple supresors.

[cssamerican]

To echo what other people have already said in this thread, Hurkyl's Recall seems like a better card in this deck than Gorilla Shaman does, at least in the maindeck. It isn’t affected by Suppression Field, so in many cases it will much cheaper to use, and in conjunction with Chalice of the Void the effect should be much more widespread than the shaman’s. My only concern would be Misdirection; however, this could be rectified by running ItEoC instead of Chains as a built-in defense to combat this. Some other up sides of using Hurkyl's Recall is the deck would have another non-dedicated answer to Darksteel Colossus, which while not always needed it is nice to have. I could also see it being an effective way to turn the tide in a Workshop Aggro match, as well as being a possible bomb versus other Stax decks.

I have a couple of questions for Vroman concerning his current build. Demonic Consultation looks a little risky for this deck simply because it would be fairly easily to consult your win condition away and put yourself with fewer cards in your library than your opponent. Do you really think Demonic Consultation is worth the risk? Would it be if Gorilla Shaman weren’t in the maindeck? Does CronStax even need another tutor? Also since Crucible of Worlds abilities don’t stack it would seem to me three would be the right amount. I am curious, why do you feel that you need four of them in the maindeck?

[Disburden]

I know the question is for Vroman, but I felt like I should give another opinion also.

I don't think that you need more than three crucibles. It doesn't seem in the least bit necessary and I would also like knowing why it was considered. Drawing more than one in the opening hand can suck sometimes, I would just run something else in that slot, like lets say another Gemstone mine.

I don't feel running three gemstone mines is good. I feel there should be four like in Kevin Cron's decklist. Chang's list ran three but his list is more dependent on Workshop mana than Colored mana. Cron's is the complete opposite and relies more on colored spells.

This would than give you a very good reason to run In the Eye of Chaos over Chains as a two-of. To me anyway the effect of EtEoC is much more powerful in Cron Stax than Chains ever was, which is why lately it was removed from the deck and used more of a sideboard type of card. I would much rather just counter instants than try to shut down Brainstorms, etc, especially when brainstorm would just be countered anyway a lot of the time with ITEOC.

I am also wondering about Fastbond in Vroman's list. Why is it needed to complete the game plan of the deck? It's an awesome card and I even ran it when Cron's 5c stax was revealed as my "Tech" but I removed it shortly there-after since it was a dead draw sometimes and wasn't a lock piece.

This is what I believe to be the ideal land base for Suppression Stax:

4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Workshop
4 Wasteland
1 Strip mine
1 Barbarian Ring
1 Academy

I haven't gotten much into the Tendo Ice Bridge point that Vroman pointed out, but I think I would much rather run Mines over Ice Bridges.

[Komatteru]

Ok, here's something you need to consider.  When you're more dependant on colored spells, you're going to need Gemstone Mine.  An important part of Stax is the synergy between Gemstone Mine and Crucible of Worlds.  Tendo Ice Bridge cannot get you more colored mana unless you can sack it to Smokestack when you have a Crucible out.  However, in that case, you're likely winning, and you aren't going to need to cast a whole lot more colored spells.  Recurring Gemstones is an important source of colored mana--one of the fundamental synergies in Stax.  Ice Bridge plus a Crucible does absolutely nothing for you in terms of making more colored mana.  You can say that playing with more Mines makes you more dependent on Crucibles, but that's only true to an extent.  Crucible is already fundamentally important to the deck, since it creates locks by recurring Wasteland/Strip Mine, creates a lock with Smokestack, allows you to build back up tempo from missing a land drop by wasting something, and protects you from opposing Wastelands.  The four of those things are already so huge, and adding another depedence on Crucible isn't really going to change much.  The fact is, you get 3 shots out of Gemstone before you need to worry, and if you can't produce a Crucible reasonably quickly anyway, your life is going to be a lot more difficult.

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

Dizzle is pretty much right. The one advantage bridge has is that it sticks around. When you run 3-4 sphere + Nether Void, you'll often want a permanent source of colorless mana. City can be painful, and gemstones wear out.

Also, If you run supression field, I see no reason to run barbarian ring. you'll need atleast 3 sources of manato use it's ability. Plus, without bazaar, bitting threshold before you see a field is unlikely. The creatures you want to deal with (with ring) are dealt with with the fields.

After testing field a bit, I think it's too narrow to play maindeck. I'd much rather have the ability to waste/use shaman than to potentially shut off fetches. The fact is, it doesn't stop them from casting spells. One weld activation may be all slaver needs to win the game. Plus, I really hate the idea that it sometimes works against your deck. I'll give you an example. Your opponent is playing some control deck. He has 2 mana up and you have 4 mana untapped, a field in play, and you draw a strip mine/wasteland, holding crucible/stack. Now, instead of wasting a land a playing a threat, you're faced with a choice of disrupting the opponent in hopes he doesn't have another land, or to play into drain. I may be entirely off, but my first impressions of the card aren't very good. I can see it being a great SB card against slaver though.

-Bob

[Disburden]

I am seeing lot of arguments about Suppression Field being bad in stax. In testing I have found it to be nothing less than awesome against control, I play in the North East. It is, to me, nothing at all narrow.

Also the argument to me about it affecting you at certain times seem like a minor concern to me.

Take this opening hand:

Workshop
mine
Mox
Mox
Suppression field
Trinisphere
Chalice


 Any opening hand without a strip effect first turn is going to kick your opening in the pants if Suppression field is an ingredient. You can cast Trinisphere, Chalice, or Field. All of these options would be great against virtually anything that is in the format right now considering it resolves. Why would you not want the option to cast field game one?
 
 The card CAN affect your spells, but then you need to learn how to replay the deck where you can make the decision of what you would rather play at that moment in time. Stax, especiall Cron's version, has multiple forms of spells that affect eachother in a negative way but work out well in the end if you play the deck correctly.

Chalice for one hurts your Ancestral, Vamp, Shaman, Imperial sea, Crop Rotationl and swords (if you run it).

Chalice for two hurts your demonic tutor, Chains (if you run it), Field, Sphere of Resistance, balance and pyroclasm if you sideboard it in without taking out chalice.

Chalice for three, although not as common hurts your Crucible, ITEOC,and Will.

Trinsphere hurts your own spells like moxen, lotus, sphere of resistance (although minorly), and everything else in the deck that cost less than 3 within the first few turns, including Shaman.

Sphere of resistance does the same but in a totally minor way.

Cron Stax has always, and I do mean always, had spells that totally affect eachother in the deck and in turn affect what you would or should play because of it. Running Field is really nothing more than the same that goes for all the other cards in the deck. Cron Stax is entirely about knowing what to play and when, considering what spells you play affect your next turns permanent drop, and still consider what your opponent is doing. That is why not so many people have success with the deck. It is amazingly complex.

I'm surprised Steve or Cron himself have chimed in on their opinions of Suppression Field in Stax lately.

[Komatteru]

Workshop
mine
Mox
Mox
Suppression field
Trinisphere
Chalice

This hand is exceptional and there are few ways for you to lose with it. Either way, you're going to have 3 mana on turn 2 (6 if your opponent has no wastes) and shut down the world depending on what resolves.  This is not a good hand to do analysis on.  It's like analyzing any combo hand that has Black Lotus in it, really.  You just win with it.

[dogleg969]

Initially in my 5c Stax build I opted for a 2x Tendo 3x Gemstone and 0 Lotus Petal configuration. I think for the way the deck runs you really don't want that many one-shot colored sources.  Which basically echoes what JD and others said above.

However, my initial logic behind cutting a Gemstone for a Tendo was that I wanted to be able to pay for all my cost modifiers without having to rely on a random Mox, since Cities and Gemstones were hurting me one way or another.  I had long since gone back to 4x Gemstone 1x Tendo.

Does CronStax even need another tutor?

With no draw engine, I think you'd take about every castable one you can get.  The D-Con in Vroman's list can easily become Imperial Seal.  I have run Consultation in Stax before, and most of the time it's worth the risk.  We aren't playing Storm combo here, so you really never *need* to consult for a restricted card.

[vroman]

Ive lost bc of d-consult before, but still its the most efficient tutor in the game... for 4ofs you havnt drawn yet. its really powerful just as a 5th turn 1 chalice. as for where I-seal fits in, Id probably run it in adition rather than over d-consult. possibly cutting the 4th crucible, however;
I like playing 4 crucibles, bc its the triumphant centerpiece in the mirror, which is now my most frequent matchup. fastbond is strictly better than sacred ground if you can guarantee a crucible. I dont really count on it as early game acceleration, but more of a late game 1 mana continuous lands only yawg will.
the Stl metagame has polarized into I would guess: 40% stax, 40% CS, 10% gifts, 10% workshop aggro, 0% bad decks. keep in mind the majority of our weekly tournaments are infi proxy.
I concur that gemstone is better than ice bridge, and have dropped the latter.
re: razormane, I agree its suboptimal, and its vaguely annoying to me that stax has to actually win after locking the game. if only there was a rule whereby if you could logicaly prove your opponent can never effect the gamestate again with any combination of legal cards, then you automaticaly win. razormane is very efficient though at smashing face under suppresor and is a single card win condition against second tier aggro decks, (fish/goblins).
b-ring is questionable w supresors and no milling engine, but I wanted a back up welder killer and win condition that didnt compete for space w non-mana locks. I will keep it for now.

[Polynomial P]

I really dont agree with running D-consult when you have only 2-3 win conditions. I ran D-consult for a while in my stax deck, and yes, it was amazing, but I was also running about 11 cards that could win the game. D consult is very scary when you can easily remove your only win conditions. Also, its not like you can deck your opponent, since you have removed so much of your library from the game.

4 Crucibles is good tech. You can always side them out and you always want to see one. So what if you get 2, you can sack it to smokey if you need to.

[cssamerican]

Does CronStax even need another tutor?

With no draw engine, I think you'd take about every castable one you can get.  The D-Con in Vroman's list can easily become Imperial Seal.  I have run Consultation in Stax before, and most of the time it's worth the risk.  We aren't playing Storm combo here, so you really never *need* to consult for a restricted card.

I was talking in addition to Imperial Seal. I wasn’t concerned about consulting for a restricted card; I was concerned about consulting for a four of and watching my one win condition get consulted away in the process. Plus, in a cog style deck like this I believe it can have too many tutors and not enough actual lock/solution pieces. So, I am not sure if the deck wants a sixth tutor, and if it did I am not sure if it would outweigh a drawback as serious as losing the game. I just don’t think risk/reward ratio is worth it.

Vroman, Fastbond’s strength would seem to be much weaker in this build than in previous CronStax builds simply because with multiple Fields in play you wouldn’t be able Strip Mine their entire board when it resolves. I say this because many people felt that is wasn’t that good before, hence it seems to me that it would be an even weaker addition now. Would you care to explain why you feel that it so good now?

Regarding a win condition someone should try Gods’ Eye, Gate to the Reikai if just for the WTF factor. It is quite elegant in combination with Crucible/Smokestack because you could ramp up to two soot counters and still maintain your permanent count, you never have to worry about it getting plowed, and it could be that ninetieth land which would free up one slot in the maindeck.

[vroman]

fastbond + crucible lets you ramp smoky indefinitely w no concern. this will surely erase opp board before life loss becomes critical. it also is sacred ground and more against opp smokies. I agree suppresor makes it a slightly less broken play, but this just means academy is more important to the deck. crop rotating for academy is often better than stripmine if opp is suficiently bogged down by cost modifiers.
Rekai is a card Id considered for that exact reason when it came out but never tested. the synergy is beautiful in theory.
introducing more 1 ofs would lean me towards I-seal over d-consult, if I only had room for 1. truly d-consult is far riskier than m-crypt and Ive been in situations where its sat dead in my hand bc I was in a slightly superior position, and I was too afraid to throw the game away w an unlucky consult and hoped to draw into a more solid lock naturally. I-seal in that situation wouldve imediately improved my position to domination.

[Shean]

4 resistor
4 smoky
4 chalice
4 crucible
4 supressor
1 trisphere
1 razormane
1 monkey
1 ancestral
1 balance
1 crop
1 d-tutor
1 v-tutor
1 d-consult
1 yawgie
1 tinker
1 fastbond
2 chains

Vroman - I like your list, but those add up to 34 which puts you at 26 mana sources?  I'd like to have all those tutors in the deck, but I don't feel comfortable cutting a Crucible or mana.  I've been testing the same 4-of's that you have.  And using these tutors:

D-Tutor
V-Tutor
I-Seal
Tinker
C-Rota

I have one more slot for a tutor-type of card.  I'm looking at Yawg's Will or Fastbond (I'm not a fan of D-Consul).  I've been running Yawg's Will because its just a better card.

After my testing, I feel that the deck wants 4 Crucible, 4 Chalice, 4 Suppression Field, 4 Stax & 4 Resistor.  I don't think that putting D-Consul in the deck adds anything if you are cutting one of the cards you might D-Consul for (i.e. Crucible).

[Sean Ryan]

Good discusion. 

So far, I have found the primary difficulty with adopting the 4 SField strategy is: a) more difficult decisions that often must be made with incomplete information, b) not having reliable access to GShaman and moxen. 

By running 4 SField you basically negate GShaman and your ability to deal with moxen before Chalice at 0 comes down.  I have been testing H. Recall and it has promise but, it does is not filling Shamans shoes.

The other issue is one of space.  Lets take a look at a list of hypothetical choices:

Artifact Lock:14-16
4 Smoky
3-4 Resisto
3-4 Chalic
3 Crucible
1 Trini

Enchantement Lock: 1-9
0-4 SField
1-2 IEC
0-2 Chains
0-1 Nethervoid
 
Megaton Bombs: 9
Will
DT
VT
Imperial Seal
Crop Rotation
Tinker
A.Recall
Balance
Karn

Lesser Bombs:2
H.Recall
Fastbond

Mana: 28
Standard 27 slots plus either:
1 Tendo Ice Bridge
1 Gods Eye, Gate to the Reiki
1 ???

SB:
Choke
G. Seal
RnR (no more Heretic w/SField)
Seal o Cleansing
Ray
Stp
Seal o Removal
Razormane

**************************************

Taking  a look at the assortment of lock peices availble, choices must be made as to what belongs MD, SB, and what should be cut.

The other thing is you really don't want to cut any of your bombs either, ecpecially the Megaton Bombs.  Also, without any draw I don't like running any less than 20 lock peices.  Which doesn't leave much room.

You could go the route that Clown of Tresserhorn laid out and run 2-3 SFields in the SB leaving you the ability to run GShaman/Trike MD.  Depnding upon your meta this might be better than trying to make the deck do unreasonable contortions to fit in SFields.

For example, in Seattle, Giftz and a new Oath-Gifts hybrid are the 2 most played control decks making up the largest percentage of the field.  Sure on the play turn 1 SFields is great in these matchups as any other but its power steadily declines after that.  In this instance I would much rather have GShaman and possibly even 2 Welders, leaving the SFields in the SB.

One thing I am certain of, however, is that SField will have an enormous impact upon the metagame as a whole.  And those last 4-8 slotz in Cronstax, which SField inhibits, are compleltey dependant upon the expected meta.

Its a very exciting time to be inovating with Stax.

Sean

 

[vroman]

heres the list I tested in the last few days

4 chalice
4 smoky
4 crucible
4 resistor
recall
yawgie
crop
dtutor
vtutor
Iseal
fbond
trisphere
balance
monkey
razormane
3 supresor
1 eye of chaos
1 chains
1 nethervoid
27 total mana:
1 b-ring
1 gate to rekai
0 tendo

nether void is a game breaker, but in 3 days of playing I NEVER ONCE GOT IT IN PLAY except after I had already completely locked the game. the difference between 3 and 4 nonshop mana is aparently the threshold for what you can reasonably expect from this deck. I will happily make this back into a chains or chaos eye.
rekai is a fun card and I think its worth a slot in any stax deck. I cut jens in my ubastax for it.

[NastyNate]

I couldn't resist any longer. There are some great ideas in here, but some very simple and overlooked things too.

1) Enlightened Tutor: um, it gets almost everything in the deck.

2) Titania's Song: Armageddon all moxes in play and swing for the win. Of course this makes chalice less compelling, but um who cares. Chalice is as fragile as it gets these days.

You also need an inexpensive costed creature removal effect, or hoser. Suppression field may stop activated abilities, but not attack phases. Getting smacked around by FCG is not something I wanted to experience.

I've been playing with this.

MANA [ten 5C lands because of the increased need]
4 Shops
4 CoB
3 Gemstones
3 Ice Bridges
3 Wastes
1 Strip
1 Academy
1 Lotus
1 Crypt
1 Vault
5 Moxen
1 Sol Ring

Colored Spells [locks, tutors, draw, anti creature tech, and win condition]
3 Titania's Song
3 Suppression Field
3 Meditate [this is still good with tangle wire and smokies]
3 Propaganda [anti aggro]
1 Ancestral
1 E-Tutor
1 D-Tutor
1 V-Tutor
1 I-Seal
1 Balance

Artifact locks [only 14 but it does the job with song]
4 Smokestack
3 Tangle Wire
3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Sphere
1 Trinisphere

I decided I didn't need want any activated abilities in the deck at all, besides a few wastelands, so that I could really maximize the fields to their fullest. I was looking at potential win conditions when I remembered titania's song, and thought it might make a nice karn replacement. Well actually it is often better than karn, if you play it quickly, it makes tinker all but impossible to resolve too!

I guess if we just keep pooling ideas, the best will rise to the top.

[Lunar]

song is interesting

has anybody tried Null rod in this build yet?  Seems to work well with suppresion field to turn off an opponents deck...do we need our own moxen too much though? 

what do you all think?

[vroman]

e-tutor doesnt get stripmine or academy, which I tutor up at least 50% of the time.
titanias song is terrible. it costs 4 nonshop mana which is actually very hard to do. chalice costs ZERO. chalice is awesome bc you look at your opening hand play some mana and a threat and then on top of that you get chalice @ 0 for free as a bonus. the point is to stop your opp from going broken in the first couple turns, not kill moxes long after theyve been pumping out mana for several turns.