Black Fish

[Ozymandias]

Black Fish

The "Fish" Archetype is an aggro-control arcehetype in which low mana-cost beaters are combined with low-mana cost disruption in order to drop the opponent.
The most common form of this is generally U/x Fish, featuring the skeleton of Chalice/Jitte/Vial/Wasteland and fleshing it out with a bevy of creatures and permission, ranging form the ubiquitous Standstill and Force of Will, to Gaea's Skyfolk and Wild Mongrel.

Black Fish is a mono-black variation on this archetype. Keeping the same skeleton, Eschewing blue for black, and the commensurate counters for discard, it features a disruptive creature base of Mesmeric Fiends, Withered Wretches, and the like, along with Phyrexian Negator and the like to bring the big beats. Here's a sample decklist:

Disruption:
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Chains of Mephistopheles
4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
Beats:
4 Mesmeric Fiend
3 Withered Wretch
4 Phyrexian Negator
3 Skittering Skirge
Cardination:
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Demonic Consultation
Removal:
3 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Diabolic Edict
Mana:
4 Dark Ritual
4 Aether Vial
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Chrome Mox
11 Swamp

Sideboard:
3 Contagion
3 Diabolic Edict
4 Shadow of Doubt
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Metagame

You'll notice that with the exception of Chains, the deck doesn't have power of any sort. If you must replace the Chains, add in night's whispers, and if you're proxying, consider adding in Moxen and Lotus.

Playing the deck.

The plan is simple: lay some disruption, and then pick up the pieces at Jitte-point. You'll generally want to get you disruption- Chalice for zero, or Duress, or Fiend+Therapy, whatever- in on the first turns, follwing up with the beats later on. However, if you can sneak a quick Negator in against the very removal-light control decks of today, go for it. The lone maindeck Edict is in place versus Colossus, as you have otherwise 0 maindeck ways of dealing with "topdeck Tinker, I win." Early vials are key versus Drain Control.

The sideboard:

3 Contagion, 3 Edict- your plan verus creatures. A quick edict can stop Oath long enough to win, and contagion helps verus all of the nasty X/1s and X/2s running around Vintage these days.

Shadow of Doubt- In versus Gifts/Combo. It stops Gifts, Fetchlands, Tutors, Tinker, and a bevy of other search effects.

Jitte- in versus Aggro-Control to achieve Jitte Superiority.

Metagame- Got a lot of Belcher? In come the needles. Dragon? Hello, Tormod's Crypt! FCG? Engineered Plague to the rescue!

When to play this deck:

Play this deck in a field of removal-light control, aggro-control, and combo, like Gifts and Belcher. This deck has a few advantages over traditional U/x Fish:
1) The cost- no FoWs, Duals, or other really expensive cards(except for Chains, which I'd really like a substitue for.)
2) The manabase- not having to worry about colorscrew means you can run 5 strips and laugh at the opponent's wastelands
3) The clock- Negator's a lot more imposing than say Skyfolk.

That said, your disruption is really proactive, so if you've got a lot of Combo that folds to Force of Will, but goes off turn 1, this may not be the best choice. Also, you don;t have the same draw power as traditonal Fish.

When not to play this deck:

Do not, I repeat, DO NOT, play this deck in a field of quick fat- anything larger than 3/3 on t3. That means: FCG, Oath, and Workshop Aggro. Though you can win sometimes- usually on the back of a Ritual-powered flurry of discard- these matchups are bad for you.

In summation:

Play this deck if you secretly liked SuiBlack, but respect yourself too much to play it.

Feel free to mess around with the creature base to suit your metagame, and also to switch disruption around to fit your meta.

Suggestions are welcomed.

[Xyre]

There are already numerous threads discussing the merits (or lack of merits) of UB Fish. Please check for other threads before posting.
Besides, this looks like a modified Suicide Black. I wouldn't think it would do as well as real Fish, which has Force of Will.

[apoc7k]

There are already numerous threads discussing the merits (or lack of merits) of UB Fish. Please check for other threads before posting.
Besides, this looks like a modified Suicide Black. I wouldn't think it would do as well as real Fish, which has Force of Will.

Uh, not to bicker, but I have one thought. You say "This looks like...". That basically tells me that you are bashing the deck without seeing how it actually does in the field. Instead of bashing a deck for it not doing as well as another deck, why not give us insight about why you believe this? Unless you explain why you say this, we might just as well take your comment with as much consideration as a 3 year old trying to explain to you how to save a victim of a gunshot wound.

Anyways, I'm happy to see the thread re-made. I personally enjoy Black Fish. The stability of a mono-colored mana base, the stronger hate cards of black, and nice beaters.

My big question is this. Is a lone Edict sufficient against the random Tinker-Colossus? Obviously, Games 2 and 3 can be much more favorable, but I'm just curious how well it works.

[policehq]

I think with all the disruption and Chalice of the Void, Tinker isn't as bad of a problem.

Three things I notice off-hand:
1) If you're putting both decks into top-deck mode with Chains of Mephistopheles, why not play Polluted Deltas/Bloodstained Mires over some of your basic Swamps? Are you concerned about Shadow of Doubt/Pithing Needle/Stifle?

2) I think Vampiric Tutor would suit the deck better for finding Diabolic Edict, and in any versions of the deck with more power, those pieces of power. Also, in the environments you listed, Necropotence dodges Chains of Mephistopheles and speeds up your clock.

3) Have you tried Nezumi Graverobber in Withered Wretch's place? It can be Vialed out, and since you're playing Vials, the extra one colorless may not make a difference on your available mana, and later it turns into a nice clock.

[ROLAND]

Why not drop the negator for Hunted horror?

You could the add engineered explosives and powder kegs to kill the tokens. (Not to mention moxen!)

 Also what about coretapper?  Isn't the goal of the deck to beatdown as quickly as possible?

Roland

[xrizzo]

Proper thread: http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/index.php?topic=24938.0

Why no Dark Confidant? 

As mentioned, this is more like suicide than fish.  Diabolic Edict?  There has to be a better maindeck slot than that... how about Darkblast? 

[Ozymandias]

1) You very well could, and I will consider it- maybe even splash b/r for blood moons/artifact destruction, or b/u for Back to Basics and time walk, ancestral, etc.

2) Vampiric tutor is alright, but it causes card disadvantage, and is slower than a turn than the Demonics. Necro is good, alright, but not getting the cards now hurts, and with a curve this low, you'll ofen be unable to truly abuse the extra cards. That said, it can fill your hand with threats, and if you can find space for it might be a good idea.

3) The 'robber is alright, but he'll often end up being just a 2bb 4/2, compared to a BB 2/2 Tormod's crypt on legs.

4) Hunted horror is absolutely terrible in this deck. In fact, any card that absolutely needs other cards to be good is terrible in this deck. Also, Explosives is not so good in a monocolor deck- I'd rather play chalice. Powder keg might be good, but I don't see where I'd put it.

Also what about coretapper?  Isn't the goal of the deck to beatdown as quickly as possible?



No it's not- it's to provide a steady clock backed up by awesome disruption.

And why would you play coretapper in beatdown? Jitte? better to play a skirge. Vial? Defeats the purpose. Chalice? Cute, but unnecessary.

Why no Dark Confidant?

As mentioned, this is more like suicide than fish.  Diabolic Edict?  There has to be a better maindeck slot than that... how about Darkblast?

Confidant is an option, especially given the deck's low curve. But it's not disruptive or a super fast clock...the idea has merit though.

And this deck isn't suicide! It can bring fast 'Gator beats, yes. But there are no sarcomancys. No Flesh Reavers. Just disruptive spells and disruptive beaters.

As for the Edict...let's see darkblast stop DSC.

[Negator13]

Let's see Edict stop DSC.

(Hint: they're going to have Fow/Drain backup when they Will/Tinker/Walk/Wish)

[Ozymandias]

Not after 12-odd discard spells they won't.

Not after they rip it off the topdeck.

[lordmayhem]

Confidant is an option, especially given the deck's low curve. But it's not disruptive or a super fast clock...the idea has merit though.

And this deck isn't suicide! It can bring fast 'Gator beats, yes. But there are no sarcomancys. No Flesh Reavers. Just disruptive spells and disruptive beaters.

That AND you are packing 3 Chains. Confidant doesn't count as a draw meaning you get 2 cards a turn and they don't. That said, I think its a mistake to not make room for him.

Have you given any thought to Planar Void btw?

[verduran]

There are already numerous threads discussing the merits (or lack of merits) of UB Fish. Please check for other threads before posting.
Besides, this looks like a modified Suicide Black. I wouldn't think it would do as well as real Fish, which has Force of Will.

Uh, not to bicker, but I have one thought. You say "This looks like...". That basically tells me that you are bashing the deck without seeing how it actually does in the field. Instead of bashing a deck for it not doing as well as another deck, why not give us insight about why you believe this?

He already told us; the lack of FoW.

[Ozymandias]

If you want to run confidant, do it like this:
-3 Skirge
+3 Confidant
The problem is that your draw engine is a less than impressive threat without evasion, and there's no guarantee the extr acrds will make a difference in relation to the testing. Perhaps you might be even better off with Specter(!) because it works under chains, has evasion, doesn't cost you life, and has a disruptive effect all by its lonesome.

Or I might be high.

Anyway, if your entire metagame is like turn 1 combo crud like MD Tendrils, this deck might not be the best choice, because its a coinflip. But any combo that gives you aturn to get your disruption on is gonna get beat down by Duress, Chalice 0 a lot. But yes, this deck has no turn 0 mojo.

[twiggy]

To see some other people thoughts on it here is another mono B fish thread

If you want some thoughts on B/x there are two threads going righ now  here and here that might be interesting.

Now I am all for mono b fish but i don't really agree with your build.  Chains+Confidant = sexy.  Therapy goes well with the confidants and fiends as well.  Contagion is  a good call but darkblast might be more convenient (and easier with the confidant).  Can you tell I like confidant?

And why would you play coretapper in beatdown? Jitte?

I think thats what he was going for, but I don't dig it either.  I played against someone who was trying it out and it just seemed cumbersome.

[AmbivalentDuck]

You virtually scoop to Chalice for 2.

[Das_Boot]

A splash is painless and helpful.  6-7 Fetches are good anyway.  In an environment with blockers this deck sucks anyway, so Confidant is way way better than Skirge.  You look to play really quick disruption/threats and as such, your hand empties quickly.  The 4th Chains really is more important that the 4th Cabal Therapy.  Vamp sucks because of the card disadvantage.  Withered Wretch is your best creature by 3465463476754 miles.  Play 4.  The SB IMO should be:
4x Shadow of Doubt
4x Pithing Needle
3x Null Rod (If you stay unpowered)
1x Jitte
4 (or 7 without Null Rod) cards from your splash color.

Back to the splash, there is no reason whatsoever not to splash white or blue and improve your matchups across the board, even if only to add StP or Stifle MD, because it doesn't hurt at all and drastically improves your SB.

Also, shouldn't we be discussing this deck with power?  It's easy to budgetize, so I think we should discuss an optimal version and then people wanting to budgetize can just cut the power and replace with swamps or something.

Finally, you play Vial, so no, you don't scoop to Chalice for 2.

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

Has nobody tested skullsnatcher? It's better than wretch, IMO. Wretch ties up valuable mana, where skullsnatcher comes out for B, and immediately impacts the board.

Honestly, 4 duress, 4 therapy, AND 4 fiend is excessive. Therapy flashesback, and most times, after the first duress, you should be in a winning position. I think something like 4 duress, 3 therapy, 3 fiend should suffice.

Also, chalice is ridiculous. Every powered deck in the format relies on some sort of acceleration. Chalice shuts that down. I can see something like turn 1 duress/chalice 0, being devastating for a control deck.

-Bob

[lordmayhem]

Has nobody tested skullsnatcher? It's better than wretch, IMO. Wretch ties up valuable mana, where skullsnatcher comes out for B, and immediately impacts the board.

BUT, it also only works on combat damage, meaning you can't do any grave-hate tricks on your turn and you won't remove anything with a random blocker in the way. Plus you're limited to 2 cards only. Wretch is better IMO.

[twiggy]

I agree, I really like the wretch.  Being able to his his ability in response is a big deal.  At the end of their turn  being able to select as many cards as you would like is a fun bonus.  I tried out the ninja rat because of the easier mana cost and found it to limited for my tastes.

[AmbivalentDuck]

While it's true that you can still use Vial to play creatures under a Chalice for 2, you lose most of the non-creature spells in your deck.  Further, you have no way of dealing with an artifact once it's in play.  Therefore two-thirds or more of your draws will be wasted under a Chalice for 2.  Since the deck most likely to play said Chalice for 2 quickly is Stax, you would be beaten handily as you have no recourse to the strategy other than going first to Duress it.

[Das_Boot]

So basically, if Stax goes first, it is not game one, and you have no Vial or Negator, they have Chalice + 4 mana, and they are smart enough to play Chalice at two, you are hurt.  Even so, your disruption is still effective, and, while it looks bleak, you can occasionally squeeze out a win.  The only non-creature spells that it hits post-SB are Null Rods and Jittes.  Also, if you fear Stax that much, SB Rebuild, it's really really good here.

EDIT:
Withered Wretch is an auto-4-of, and consider Thirst for Knowledge and Gifts Ungiven when you think about why it is so much better than Skullsnatcher.

[Ozymandias]

Taking your suggestions into consideration, I present...version ~1.1

Disruption:
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Chains of Mephistopheles
4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
Beats:
4 Mesmeric Fiend
4 Withered Wretch
4 Phyrexian Negator
2 Dark Confidant
Cardination:
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Demonic Consultation
Removal:
3 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Diabolic Edict
Mana:
4 Dark Ritual
4 Aether Vial
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Mox Jet
1 Black Lotus
10 Swamp

Sideboard:
3 Darkblast
4 Shadow of Doubt
1 Umezawa's Jitte
7 Metagame

On the subject of a splash...A large part of this deck's appeal is its ability to laugh at nonbasic hate of all kinds, Splashing is appealing, but it detracts from the decks resilience (in terms of mana), (but adds to it in terms of threat resilience). Nevertheless, the idea has merit. Anybody else testing this? Anyway, I tested Vs. Oath, and unless I can get some disruption on before Orchard/Oath, I'm losing. Generally, Orchard Mox Oath is game, so I just tend to shout out "Creature of the Night!" and move on to game 2.

Also, only 8 spells in the deck get shut down by chalice=2. You'll vial most critters anyway.
One game vs Enchantress of all things I vialled in a

[Methuselahn]

Nice presentation on the opening post, for sure.     Ok, let's take at look at all the cards that don't use colorless mana:

4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Necropotence
4 Dark Ritual

That's not alot of cards.  Cabal Therapies have alternate casting costs, the Rituals are just mana accelerants, which I propose that you cut, and the Necropotence I threw in because it's painful to not see it in there.   

There are so many cards in the deck that use colorless mana, moxen should definetly be considered.  Having more permanents by using Moxen will also help you against that dreadful Stax matchup.  I think Dark Ritual's best role right now is in fueling Tendrils combo and even that is being largely replaced with Rebuild/Moxen as a storm generator.

Your other matchups I'm not going to touch.  Keep working on the deck!

[Das_Boot]

Moxen are really good.  The 4th Chains IMO is way more important than the 4th Cabal Therapy, since you already have no trouble emptying their original hand, but you want to keep them from refilling it.  I prefer a third Confidant to the 25th mana source, also.  For the sb, Pithing Needle >>>>>>>>>> Darkblast.  I'll elaborate on that if you want me to, but I think it's pretty obvious.
  Splashing still leaves you with a rock-solid manabase.  Just a tiny splash of blue, adding only Time Walk, Ancestral, and Rebuild/Waterfront Bouncer sb improves your matchups across the board.  Rebuild is so good here, because it makes Chalices on the draw and newly drawn Chalices extremely relevant, and it lets Duress, Cabal Therapy, and Mesmeric Fiend equal Vindicates.  The only requirement is like 1 or 2 basics becoming nonbasics, but even still, 23/25 of your mana is non-Wastable, and them Wasting your land isn't even that bad, because your curve is really low, you run acceleration and Vials, and it kills one of their lands.  The other potential splash is White, which gives you STP and again, a vastly improved sb which improves all your matchups.  These splashes also open up room for experimenting with cards such as Daze that help the deck's vulnerability to topdecks.

[twiggy]

I like the new list much more (it's much closer to what I have been working on ).
The thing I would suggest you test from there would be something more like this.  With chains out the confidants give you an excellent draw engine that is a hindrance to your opponent.  If the life loss starts to get out of hand you should be able to offset it with the jitte or sac'ing the confidants for your therapies.  This might come down to a playstyle issue but this has been working better for me.

Beats:
3 Mesmeric Fiend
4 Withered Wretch
3 Phyrexian Negator
4 Dark Confidant

[Prometheon]

I love this deck, but the Negators are terible. Trust me, a friend of mine played it at a tournament, and lost because of his Negators all day.

T1 is full of creatures right now, be they Gorilla Shamans, Medling Mages or Mishra's Factories. I don't know what a suitable replacement would be, but right now I'm leaning towards either Skittering Horror or Drinker of Sorrow.

Also, I've been questioning the neccessity of Dark Ritual in the MD, and thought opf maybe replacing it with more beats.

[Das_Boot]

I love Negators.  The top three decks all have problems dealing with him.  If you are playing against a lot of Fish, leave him out, but most people aren't.

[lordmayhem]

T1 is full of creatures right now, be they Gorilla Shamans, Medling Mages or Mishra's Factories.

And Welders and Hearth Kami and Fluxes on legs......etc. Plague Spitter and Cuombajj Witches would have made great choices in creature-infested metas except that they're very unsynergistic with Confidant and Fiend.

[twiggy]

@Prometheon  If you dont like the negators I would swap them out for Skittering Skirges or Skittering Horrors.  The new Hunted Horrors might be worth looking into but would probably require EE.  I personaly hate Drinker of Sorrow

[Ozymandias]

Disruption:
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Chains of Mephistopheles
4 Duress
2 Cabal Therapy
Beats:
4 Mesmeric Fiend
4 Withered Wretch
4 Phyrexian Negator
2 Dark Confidant
Removal:
3 Umezawa's Jitte
Splash:
4 Cards
Mana:
4 Aether Vial
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
5 Moxen
1 Black Lotus
4 Swamp
4 Fetches
1 Dual
1 Colored Basic
Sideboard:
4 Shadow of Doubt
1 Umezawa's Jitte
10 Metagame

There's a splash decklist. I just cut another therapy and my tutor-edict stuff. Also, I cut the rituals for the moxen. Now that we're doing this, it might be worth mentioning the ever-loving Masticore, along with Phyrexian War Beast. I'm a little concrened with chalice of the void, becuse doing it for 0 hurts me now, (and pithing-needle->fetch is a kick in the nuts). Perhaps just cut one Ritual for the splash mox and that's all.

Here are my current configurations:

Blue: Ancestral, Time Walk, Rebuild + Tutor(SB Bouncer/B2B?)
White: Swords, Disenchant, Tutor, Consult (With a sideboard Balance)
Green:(???)
Red: Blood Moon, Rack and Ruin?, Terminate? Not quite sure. I think the blue and white splashes are the best for their ability to deal with problem permanents. If you're gonna play white, the Wayfarer-fetch-Strip Engine could be good. Perhaps a tutorable cruicble to go with your LD?

EDIT: vs. Oath side in the Jitte. You can kill your own orchard tokens while you dig for answers.

[Das_Boot]

Blue gives you Ancestral, TW maindeck but the most important thing is Flux/Rebuild and Waterfront Bouncer sb.  Waterfront Bouncer is a good maindeck choice too IMO, because it effectively deals with the deck's main weakness.  The choice of extra Moxen/Rituals isn't a huge deal, as Chalice doesn't affect them if youo just play them first, and drawing them late- and mid-game, even with a Chalice out, if almost the same because you will rarely need mana then.

I'd maybe cut a Negator for another Dark Confidant, because Negators, especially without Rituals, really can clog the hand up.   Also, you really need to play 6 fetches if you are going to splash.

If you play white, obviously StPs are really really good for the same reason that Waterfront Bouncers are, only without the summoning sickness and discard (Bouncers can be Vialed, though).  Also, Kataki is worth looking into for a 3-of creature slot.  It really is amazing against everything.  I'm not sure if Weathered Wayfarer is good or not, but i certainly warrants testing.  The deck probably doesn't have the space for tutors -> Crucible though.