Black Fish

[doomhed]

why wouldnt you cut Negator for drinker of sorrow? at least drinker doesnt make you strip mine due to lava dart. a majority of the time negator either doesnt get blocked or it gets nailed big time for massive damage. So why not run the version that loses less overall permenants? you have nothing to lose.

Overall, this is nothing but a modified suicide decklist. if your going to play a budget deck, learn FCG or fish, decks that both have a remote chance. fish wins because it has force of will X4. and because it has (force of will )X4, it has (BLUE CARDS)X16+.

[AmbivalentDuck]

I disagree, the problem isn't the Negators or the fact that it looks like Sui.  The problem is that it can't deal with artifacts in an artifact heavy meta.

[Ozymandias]

I disagree, the problem isn't the Negators or the fact that it looks like Sui.  The problem is that it can't deal with artifacts in an artifact heavy meta.

I'm starting to think that the addition of a blue splash for Energy Flux might be a necessity. If you do, cut the moxen for rits. Also, +1 dark confidant, and put the two Therapies and a negator in the board VS combo.

[ROLAND]

If you can't deal with artifacts, you might as well switch from negators to hunted horrors.

Use exngineered explosives and powder keg along with wretch.

This allows you to eliminate your problem with chalice of the void and go unpowered. You will kill 3 birds with one stone. Eliminate the tokens, moxen, and chalices. 

You  don't have to splash a color, and you get a 7/7 trampler that fits the vial curve.  You can also add in the coretapper because he's kinda cute.

What it comes down to is deciding weather you want to:
 1. Control what your opponent can play
or
2.    Wipe out his permanents when they are in play

Right now you can eliminate his hand, but you can't control his permanents once they are in play.

Roland

[Das_Boot]

Those don't solve your problem, they make you a bad control deck.  There is no problem with Chalice of the Void.  Keg/EE for 0 blows 9 cards in our deck up, so they disrupt us as much as them.  Hunted Horror really really is no good at all without out these cards, and if we were playing a mediocre two card combo, we would play MaskNaught.  Coretapper sucks, period.

Splashes really help solve all your problems, whether you play StP and Kataki or Flux/Bouncer.  Daze might also be a good choice, as it aallows you to keep tapping your mana to play stuff while still putting up a counterwall.

To reiterate, the problem with the deck isn't that it looks like or is Sui, because it really plays way better cards than the Sui of old times, the problem is that it shares Sui's problem of dealing with permanents, and splashes help that.

[Ozymandias]

The problem is that Kataki/flux isn't so good for your Artifacts either.

Anybody else want to venture a decklist?
 

[Das_Boot]

Mana (25)
4x Swamp
3x Scrubland
4x Polluted Delta
3x Bloodstained Mire
1x Pearl
1x Jet
1x Lotus
1x Petal
4x Waste
1x Strip
2x Dark Ritual

Creatures (17)
3x Kataki
4x Negator
4x Wretch
3x Fiend
3x Confidant

Spells (19)
4x Chalice
4x Duress
4x Chains
4x Swords
3x Cabal Therapy

SB:
4x Shadow of Doubt
1x Kataki
1x Kami of Ancient Law
2x Disenchant
3x Jitte
4x Pithing Needle

or

Mana (25)
4x Vial
4x Swamp
1x Island
2x Underground Sea
4x Polluted Delta
3x Bloodstained Mire
4x Moxen
1x Lotus
2x Dark Rit

Creatures (18)
3x Waterfront Bouncer
4x Dark Confidant
3x Negator
4x Wretch
4x Fiend

Spells (18)
4x Duress
4x Chains
4x Chalice
2x Jitte
1x Time Walk
1x Ancestral
2x Cabal Therapy

SB:
4x Shadow of Doubt
4x Energy Flux
1x Waterfront Bouncer
1x Demonic Consultation
4x Pithing Needle
1x Demonic Tutor

Both of these are 61 cards, cut one of whatever you want.  The first list cuts Vials, which aren't that great in that deck, and suck with Kataki.  Both are pretty straightforward other than that, although note the 4 Pithing Needles in both which I think are absolutely necessary as a 4-of SB card.  The tutors in the side of the 2nd deck aren't great at all MD, but shine when you have a more singleminded gameplan (find and play Energy Flux, or find and resolve Waterfront Bouncer, or set Pithing Needle on Bazaar, etc.)  Daze is a card which I would love to play ini the 2nd list.

Both of these lists, IMO, are almost strictly superior to mono-B.

[Ozymandias]

I tend to agree. It's so easy to splash a second color that it's almost a certainty. Looking at your decklist, I made a few changes:

Mana (25)
4x Swamp
3x Scrubland
4x Polluted Delta
3x Bloodstained Mire
1x Pearl
1x Jet
1x Lotus
1x Petal
4x Waste
1x Strip
2x Dark Ritual

Creatures (14)
3x Kataki
4x Negator
4x Wretch
3x Fiend

Spells (19)
1x Diabolic Tutor
1x Demonic Consultation
4x Chalice
4x Duress
4x Chains
3x Swords
1x Seal of Cleansing/Serenity/Vindicate
3x Cabal Therapy

Adding in the mini-toolbox of Tutor, Consult, and some MD disenchant FX is quite helpful against a deck like oath. Turn 1 orchard/mox/oath is no longer an absolute GG- particularly if you're on the play. (This is particularly helpful vs. meandeck GOAT)

[AmbivalentDuck]

No answer to an early/topdecked pyroclasm -> Not viable.  You need at least one non-Negator that will live through Pyroclasm.  The turn you stop applying pressure is the turn you start losing.  Absolute Law, while unusual, would be a key sideboard card in two tough matchups: Anything running 3 SB pyroclasms against Fish (most of the non-combo environment) and FCG.

Unforunately, I think maindecked Darkblasts used by other decks as anti-Welder tech will be cruelly effective against this strategy.   Working in 3-4 Samurai of the Pale Curtain would negate that.  Maybe cut two Kataki for them?

[Lunar]

Unforunately, I think maindecked Darkblasts used by other decks as anti-Welder tech will be cruelly effective against this strategy.   Working in 3-4 Samurai of the Pale Curtain would negate that.  Maybe cut two Kataki for them?

How does samurai affect darkblast??? seeing as how darkblast is not a permanent???

[Ozymandias]

SotPC would be nice except for the WW in the CC and the non permanat status of a lot of broken. Perhaps(gasp) Flesh Reaver? It is a bit Sui, but it laughs off Darkblast and Pyroclasm, and it's a fast clock. It is bad vs. creatures though. Maybe Lurking Horror/ other manenchs/artifacts? They're good for not triggering oath, ignoring current creature destruction and evading.

Maybe a green splash would be better than white- add a Deed, a Putrefy, and some Mongrels/Sex Elves. Also, could the deck support a vampiric tutor and a bigger toolobox with say, Crucible, Planar Void, etc.

[War]

Firstly, I feel that Mishra's Factory would be a logical inclusion to the deck, especially in the face of concerns over excess mana or Pyroclasm.  On top of that, Nantuko Shades seem like a logical compliment, as they are less of a liability than Negator (both in the face of opposing creatures and direct damage)  and sit at the 2-spot for your Vial.  Concerning Darkblast, Wretch can remove it, and as mentioned, Samurai cannot.
I have seen Green played as a splash -- I'm fairly certain that you do not want to be using Deed with so many small creatures and Vial present.  It only offers Mongrel, Rootwalla, and Root Maze where other colors offer FoW/B2b, Swords/Kataki/Kismet, or Mox Monkey/REB.

[Leon PD]

With the inclusion of dark confidant, tutors like imperial seal and vampric tutor lose a lot of their drawback.  Perhaps they deserve a spot along side the confidant in the builds that used him.   Just a thought.

[Lunar]

since imperial seal is a sorcery you still need to wait until next turn unfortunatly...but vampiric might be worth considering...unless the life loss is simply too great in the long run...

[Whatever Works]

From my 1/2nd place split at the 70 person waterbury event with UB "FiendStill" I definetly belive blue is a much stronger inclussion to the deck then white. I beat 5c stax and 2 seperate aggro workshop decks 2-0 during the tournement, and a list should be posted up by ray soon.

Mono black version is horrible and cant deal with artifacts... White inclussion is just plain weaker then the blue inclussion, and will get completly trounced by darkblast (which the blue version willl not). Also Rootwater Thief is a complete house in this format right now, and pwns against oath/gifts/combo and almost anything I can think of.

Umezawa's Jitte I really like as a 3 of, and makes aggro matchups winnable. Adding in bigger creatures like horror etc. is just not as good as ANY creature with an equiped Jitte, and with factorys they become that much better.

[Das_Boot]

Whatever Works:  The white version is not "just plain weaker" than the blue version.  The deck you played at Waterbury was way different than this one, so explanations and evaluations of more card choices would be nice, and your results certainly lend credence to whatever you say, but broad, dismissive generalizations help no one.

Lunar:  Vamp is horrible, at least pre-sb, because a ton of the time, there won't be an effect worth paying 2 cards, 2 life, and its mana cost plus B for.

War:  Factory hurts the manabase's stability a huge amount, but it still is worth testing as a 2 or 3-of.
Nantuko Shade sucks up all your mana, preventing you from playing threats or disruption. You are the control deck in almost every matchup and therefore this is horrible for you.  Negator is awesome, but obviously, if you commonly see Lightning Bolts, don't play him.  Otherwise, he is an insane beating against every top-tier deck.

Ozymadias:  Samurai isn't that good.  It stops Welding decently, and Crucible, which are both good, but as the White deck is now, even if he was 1W, there would be room for at most 2-3 of him, and there are probably better ways to fill those slots.


The idea of a tutor toolbox seems good, but in practice, it makes the deck a lot more clunky.  Also, running 14 creatures and no Jittes is probably 2-3 too few cards that actually win.  There really is no problem with cutting a StP for a Demonic Consultation, because that card, costing one mana, can efficiently search for a tons of bombs even without the toolbox.  IMO the two-mana cost of Demonic makes it too much of a tempo loss to play.

Also, Orchard Mox Oath was never game on the play.  You have 15 effects that stop that on the play plus 4 Swords.

Edit:  Lunar, I understand, I was just voicing my opinion which related to your post.

[Lunar]

well copious use of the Might and Could words should have indicated that I wasnt really sure...I was simply eliminating Imperial Seal right off, and that Vampiric Tutor COULD work with confidant if you wanted something right away during your draw step...I was neither advocating its use in the deck OR the deck iteself...

I should post disclaimers on things more often.

[Ozymandias]

I'm pretty sure you want 14-16 creatures, and 24 mana sources, Leaving you 20-22 slots for disruption. Let's do a breakdown.

Creatures -Negatron is awesome versus this deck's prey- if your meta is FCG, this is not the deck you want to be playing. Four pleas
             -The same applies to the graveyard-hosing Wretch.
             -Fiend is good, depending on how much darkblast you can expect.
             -That leaves 3-4 slots open for a metagame creature- I'm sure we can come up with a good list of them. As a general choice, I'm liking Confidant More and more. if only it didn't fold so bad to lava dart/darkblast..
Mana: -Ritual- Worth keeping? It allows for some awesome starts, like Duress/Chains, Mox/Chalice1/2, or Fiend/Therapy, but it doesnt stick around
         -Splash- Blue offers some excellent stuff, but White has better pinpoint removal and antiartifact/enchantment solutions.
          -How necessary are Vials?
          -The moxen, lotus, Wastes, etc. are selfexplanatory.
Disruption:
          -Duress is an automatic 4-of IMO
          -Chalice is also great, and combined with ritual, can lead to some awesome starts. Chalice 2 hurts oath even more than it hurts you.
          -Therapy and Chains are also very good, and deserve at least 3 slots apiece.
          -Now you have an option. Build a toolbox- style approach with the remaining 8-10 cards, or go for a more consistient, less versatile redundant setup.

An example toolbox might look like this:

R Demonic Consultation
R Demonic Tutor
R Vampiric Tutor
R Enlightened Tutor
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Seal of Cleansing
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Metagame Slot(Planar Void, ETC)
1 Umezawa's Jitte.

The redundant approach would vary based on your Metagame.

Any thoughts?

[sean1i0]

I think that this deck will have a horrendous time against combo decks; however, I think that goes for any non-blue, non-combo, non-mishra's workshop deck.  Even with a lot of discard, combo will probably be a really bad matchup.

[lordmayhem]

@ Ozy : If you're cutting vials, could you cut moxen and Lotus to go for a Rod approach?

[Ozymandias]

The problem is that you don't get to use jitte with null rod. And jitte is wht turns fiend and wretch into 4-turn clocks.

[Das_Boot]

I strongly prefer 17 creatures and 25 mana sources.  The reason 14 or 15 creatures is acceptable is the presence of Jitte regularly, but the toolbox deck forsakes that for the ability to pay two cards to get a disenchant effect.  Don't get me wrong, I see the power of tutors, but it seems to me that you are dropping better all-around cards for these cards, cards that oftencome with tempo and CA losses.  The only relevant thing that toolbox does that 3x Swords 3x Jitte (or Kataki if you prefer) 1x Chains 1x Consultation 1x DT 1x Shadow of Doubt doesn't do 100 times more effectively is, well, nothing that I can really think of.  The less toolboxy configuration hates more effectively, streamlines the deck, wins faster, and doesn't make you pay 2 cards in an already ridiculously draw-light deck in order to get an effect.  I can elaborate on this if anyone wants me to.

Re: Null Rod:  It is a ridiculous bomb, to be sure.  It would require reconfiguration of a lot of the deck but I think it wouldn't be bad.  I would definitely play Shadow of Doubt md in that deck.

[Ozymandias]

Here's a putative Null Rod- sporting version:

4 Wasteland
R Strip Mine
3 Polluted Delta
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Scrubland
7 Swamp
4 Dark Ritual

3 Null Rod
3 Chains of Mephistopheles
4 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Demonic Tutor

4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Withered Wretch
4 Mesmeric Fiend
4 Wretched Anurid
1 Devout Witness

Witness can really screw up an artifact-based strategy, taking out the pieces that the Rod doesn't.

I'd really like to fit in a chalice or 4, but what to cut?

Wretched Anurid is basically there to not die to pyroclasm, but we'll see how well it works.

[Das_Boot]

You have 11 effects to take Pyroclasm out of their hand, so I wouldn't be THAT worried about it, and certainly not enough to add Wretched Anurid.  I'd cut those for 3 Confidants and a Rod, cut something for the last Chains, and cut two swamps for a Jet and a Lotus, and maybe another one for a Petal.

[And11]

Please don't talk about cutting LoMoxen, when you're playing with Null Rod. They're way too powerful and can even power out Null Rod, you know?

[AmbivalentDuck]

Unforunately, I think maindecked Darkblasts used by other decks as anti-Welder tech will be cruelly effective against this strategy.   Working in 3-4 Samurai of the Pale Curtain would negate that.  Maybe cut two Kataki for them?

How does samurai affect darkblast??? seeing as how darkblast is not a permanent???

Samurai can't be killed by a lone Darkblast, unlike most other 2/2's.  Further, it prevents excessive recursion of a single Darkblast.

[Jacob Orlove]

Unforunately, I think maindecked Darkblasts used by other decks as anti-Welder tech will be cruelly effective against this strategy.   Working in 3-4 Samurai of the Pale Curtain would negate that.  Maybe cut two Kataki for them?

How does samurai affect darkblast??? seeing as how darkblast is not a permanent???

Samurai can't be killed by a lone Darkblast, unlike most other 2/2's.  Further, it prevents excessive recursion of a single Darkblast.

Samurai of the Pale Curtain
WW
Creature — Fox Samurai
2/2
Bushido 1 (When this blocks or becomes blocked, it gets +1/+1 until end of turn.)
If a permanent would be put into a graveyard, remove it from the game instead.

Darkblast is not a permanent, so Samurai won't RFG it. That was his whole point.

[AmbivalentDuck]

I'm sorry, I misread the card.

[AmbivalentDuck]

It seems like the deck's main problems are artifacts (in general), and Fish hate in the form of Pyroclasm and Darkblast.  Bad Moon would be an interesting response to the Fish hate as I expect Darkblast to start replacing Pyroclasm.  A red splash for Viashino Heretic and Gorilla Shaman would also provide key leverage against Welder-based strategies.

Not tested at all, just as a talking point:

4   Dark Confidant
3   Gorilla Shaman
2   Viashino Heretic
4   Withered Wretch
4   Negator
   
3   Darkblast
1   Yawg Will
1   Demonic Consultation
2   Bad Moon
4   Duress
3   Chains of Meph

4   Swamp
4   Badlands
5   Black Fetch
6   LoMoxen
1   Mana Crypt
4   Dark Ritual
5   Strip

Bad Moon gives you access to 3-toughness creatures. This is a key feature in that it allows your creatures to survive most of the burn floating around (Fire/Ice) and Darkblast.  In addition, it gives you a better game against other aggro and aggro-control decks.  The Will should probably be replaced.

[Das_Boot]

Well, artifacts are only really a problem when they are creatures too.  This deck really tends to do fine against Stax.  The die roll is crucial in this game, but overall a lot of their cards just aren't that good against you, and all of your cards except Chains are really good against them.  I MD three Katakis (and would encourage others to play this bomb too) which helps too, but I have honestly found that Stax just isn't that huge of a problem.

Your deck is dramatically worse against everything, to put it bluntly.  Your effects dealing with Pyroclasm:
2x Bad Moon, 4x Duress.  My deck's effects dealing with Pyroclasm:  4x Duress, 3x Cabal Therapy, 3-4x Mesmeric Fiend.
Dealing with Darkblast:
Yours:  2x Bad Moon, 4 Wretch.  Mine:  3-4x Fiend, 4x Wretch.
Dealing with artifacts:
You run extra non-land and non-permanent mana sources, no Chalices, Darkblast instead of StP, Shamen instead of Kataki, Bad Moon and Yawgwill instead of Cabal Therapy, and hate in Heretic that, while definitely better against artifacts than Chains, still is narrower and less effective than DT -> any number of bombs.

I can dissect the list's flaws more if you need me to, but in a summary, you have cut staples of the deck, good against everything and necessary for the deck, for narrow hosers that are worse than others we have available and 5 mana slots.