The real Dragon power;)

[stichadou]

The real Dragon power:

Hi,
Let me introduce myself. I’m the French Vintage Championship. I played dragon deck for 2/3 years and this deck allows me to win a lot of prices and to accumulate top8:
-French vintage championship: co-winner: ½ beta P9+ 20 FBB bilands+ 3 boxes
-Tours co-winner: 1 black lotus
-Clichy: co-winner: 1/2 Black Lotus
-Swiss vintage championship: finalist: 2 boxes+ 1gemstone mine foil.
-Tours: #3: 1 LOA
-Sevres: co-winner:1/2 BOB
-Chambery: winner: 1 LOA
-Clichy: #5
…and I think, I forget one or two top 8;)
So, I know very well dragon and I propose to provide everybody an analysis of this deck.
I hope to answer your questions about my deck and about dragon in general. I hope too, you will understand my choices and will not flam me like somebody had done.
It was really fun to see somebody flaming dragon in May and watch the same people applauding the same deck in August.

Before, I’d like to excuse my bad English. I’m currently in California for an internship. I know there’s a lot of room for improvement  but my English is still very bad this is the reason why I didn’t answer some questions about my deck in May.
I hope a moderator will correct my mistakes. Sorry, I know, it's a lot of work;)

Witch version?

There are actually 4 different versions played around the world:
-the 5c
- U/B
-U/B/g
-U/B/r

Why green splash?

Green proposes 3 kinds of card for dragon deck: xantid swarm, crop rotation and pernicious deed (or naturalize + oxidize)
-Pernicious deed. Why? Of course, to destroy every dragon hate. But what are these hates? Tormod’s crypt, ground seal, planar void or ankh of mishra for example.
Each permanent cost less than 3 and can be destroyed by Engineered Explosive. So, green splash is not optimal for pernicious deed.
-Crop rotation is very good. This is a very good tempo card in response to wasteland effect. And, of course, this is also a very good bazaar tutor. But you never splash a color for one card.
-Xantid swarm: is a real question for a player who doesn’t test this deck. This card can be very good but it depends of the metagame. Currently, duress>>> xantid swarm because gift and combo decks are very played. Against gift or combo, very fast decks, this is important to use duress. It’s more important to discard a gift or a dark ritual to play a xantid swarm. With duress, you’ll win more turn than a xantid swarm.
If you play against a lot of TOG or Control Slaver, xantid is better, because these decks are slower than gift. Against tog or control slaver, you know to have 3 turns more.
Currently, the green is not optimal. Naturalize and oxidize don’t give Card Advantage like EE. This splash don’t improve the stacks match up because the mana base is more sensitive to wastelands and pernicious deed or naturalize are less good than EE.
With green, you improve good match up, as tog or CS but you‘ll lose few games versus stacks or gift, games that you should win with a U/B version. However, gifts and stacks are more present and harder to defeat.

What about the red?

There are only 2 kinds of card that explain people want to splash red.
-The first one is kumano or shivan. These cards allow killing in the turn and are better than caller of the claws in reality. Of course with the caller you can kill whereas there is a root maze on table, but killing in the turn is really better versus combo or oath (old version with akroma…). But in dragon, you play ambassador laquatus, and without gaea’s blessing, you kill every time in the turn. So the advantage to kill under root maze or without mana is more important than killing in the turn, because, if you want to kill in the turn, there is the Ambassador.
-Rack and ruins. In gift or tog, this card is very good versus stacks but in dragon, this is not really optimal. I explain:
Dragon is a combo deck, so, having 3 manas is rare and often useless. Versus uba/stacks or stacks, this is hard to have this mana, and when you have it, I prefer use a necromancy to win or and intuition. More, the red splash has an impact of the wastelands sensitivity. And versus stacks, without one or two moxes, you will never have 3 manas for a rack and ruins. And for the same mana, I repeat you can win with necromancy during your upkeep. Hurkyl’s recall gives you 2 turns in general and this is enough to win.
Finally, 4 basic lands+ hurkyl’s recall>>>> 2 basic lands (without mountain) + rack and ruins.
The red is worth than green and really not a good solution.

The 5c dragon:

5c allows optimizing the deck with the better cards of each color. Sacred ground, crop rotation, balance and red kill are very interesting solutions. But this version has a lot of weaknesses.
-The mana base:
This is really a big problem. Why? Because, you can’t use the combo with only city of brass. Because you can’t use more than three times your gemstone. Because, you can’t use orchard as you wish…
More, you have a lot of issues versus stacks or uba/stacks before side, because of watelands.
To be short, you can’t win if you don’t kill in the first turns.
- The Card disadvantage:
If you have tested the deck, you have observed the Card Disadvantages problem. Of course, dragon is a combo and need a lot of tutors, but versus control, Card Advantage is very important. With 3 LDVault, 1 vampiric tutor, 4 BOB and 0 Deep analyses, you can’t do the running versus control after the 5th turn. There are 4 squee, but this is really short because you will not have an intuition every time.

- The life:
“End of turn, I tap my city of brass to play a LDV. I keep the 5th combination. So, I lost 5. This is my turn, I play an orchard and I tap my orchard and my city to play an animate dead. Oh, you counter, ok, so end of turn. Oh, I lost 6 lives, you have 1 tokken, I don’t have any cards in hand because of LDVault CD, and you have two manas for the drain��
This is of course a caricature but it shows quite well the life problem. This for this reason, you can’t insert deep analyses in this build.

These 3 points show how the 5c dragon has problems after the 5th turns. Of course, the deck wants to be very fast. The Xantid swarm and the 5 moxen are also probes of this will to be fast. This version is faster than other dragon or TPS. That explains these weaknesses. This build is logic with him self, except for compulsion. It’s true, why playing this card so slow in this build. Compulsion is really bad in this deck, and it’s sad because this card is very important for dragon deck.

- Compulsion:
This card is a very good substitution to Bazaar of Baghdad. Of course, this is less good than BoB, but compulsion is very important during a long game if you haven’t BoB. But, in this deck, you can’t play it. Why? Because of the burning lands of course. To discard and draw one card, you will lose one life and compulsion is very good when you use it during 4 or 5 turns minimum. More, this is not a card for this version that wants to go fast, because compulsion is slow.
SO YOU CAN’T PLAY 5C DRAGON AND COMPULSION.

So, 5c dragon is very different to other versions. This one is very fast and very irregular. This is the best weakness of this deck: it’s irregular like every combo. You have to be fast but there are a lot of conditions to win, so, this is not always easy. Compulsions with orchard or CoB, or glimmervoid without mox, or also XS without the combo, are 3 examples of bad combinations. But there are a lot of others one, like city of brass to use combo…This is the 5c that wants that. This is not a build mistake.

Finally, the 5c dragon loses compulsion and regularity, for few quite well splashes and burning lands. For me, the fast costs too much to be a good solution. Crop rotations, XS, shivan or swords are so necessaries?
I don’t think so, and I prefer to play a dragon deck more regular and more adapted to defeat control thanks to CD after the first turns. I propose a deck that combines sometimes explosive games and a very good regularity.


This is my list:

Manas:
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mana crypt
1 Underground river
4 Underground Sea
2 Island
2 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta

Draw and discard combinations:
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
2 Compulsion
4 Worldgorger Dragon
1 Caller of the Claw
4 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Ambassador Laquatus
2 Deep analyses
1 Ancestral recall

Discards:
3 Duress
4 Force of Will
2 Stifle
1 Chain of vapor

Animate:
1 Dance of the Dead
2 Animate Dead
3 Necromancy

Tools:
1 Demonic tutor
1 Vampiric tutor
1 Time walk
3 Intuition

Side:
3 Null rod
2 Hurkyl’s recall
1 Duress
2 Sundering titan
2 Chalice of the void
2 Coffin purge
3 Engineered explosives

- Match up:

Be careful, these probabilities are approximates. It depends of the skills, the opponent side…
*Gift: 60/40
*T1T: 70/30
*STACKS: 65/35
* Control Slaver: 70/30
* Oath: 55/45
* Fish: depends of the version, but this is between: 70/30 to 55/45.
* Uba STACKS and Madness aren’t good match up, but this is not lost. Versus Uba, coutering welder and animate it after, is sometimes a good option to win
Verus UBA STACKS, this is between 50/50 and 40/60, it depends of the uba side.

-About my choices:

I have explained of lot of them before, like why duress and not XS. Or why caller and not witness?

* Why 2 Stifle? Of course to protect BoB. You can also use it versus combo, versus an opponent fetch or smokestacks /tangle wire.
* Why sundering titan? Because Gift is a good match up but not necessary a victory. This deck is much played and "animating" a sundering titan is very good.
* Why only 6 animate dead? Because one is sufficient and to have 2 animate dead in hand at the beginning, this is always synonym to mulligan. Currently, I’m testing a 5 animate dead version
I don’t have other questions for me, but if you have, give me its.

- The advantage of U/B:

With this version, you can kill turn one but this is not the real objective. The real objective is the card advantage. You will defeat T1T thanks to squee + BoB + deep and after 5 turns, you will play an animate dead. This deck draws a lot and can win in the beginning, the middle or the end of a game. This deck is very regular.
Compulsion is very good because you play only 2 colors and 4 basic lands. This mana base is very sure and versus Stacks or fish, this is a very big advantage. You can also play 2 deep analyses because you don’t have burning lands. Every choice has been optimized for 2/3 years and I can answer to your question to explain their.

For me, this deck is the best combination between the quickness and the regularity. Test it and you'lll see… you'll win.

[dexter]

Ive played dragon since -03 i think and i agree that running any other version than UB is a waste of time. BUT i have some questions.

1. Why caller over witness? The witness can do so much insane stuff thats its not even fun. And it wins the same turn you go into kombo mode.

2. Are stifles really that usefull preboard? I had them in my lists a year ago but they turned out to be fow food 9 outta 10 times so. and the 10th time they werent that amazing either so.

3. Why run vampiric over limdulsvault? The vault usually fetches 2-3 missing kombo pieces instead of just 1.

4. Why just 2 compulsions? I mean, you usually reeeeeally want an discard / carddrawing outlet round 1. Compulsion is worse than BoB sure. But vs fish and other wasteland packing decks they are amazing.

And finally, how do you handle Pithing Needles, normally with hate cards on the board you can just outdraw your opponent with BoB but when they cut of your main carddrawing engine it usually a pain in the a@@ to find the right answer in time. At least thats my experience.

[Moxlotus]

You have missed one very important point of the 5-color version.  Sacred Ground makes your manabase untouchable by wastelands AND makes their Stack completely useless.  This is huge-if you get a Sacred Ground on the table it is alost a win.  It's another 2 mana enchantment that wins the game against Stax-one that you can easily play on turn 1. 

5 color also allows you to play with Ray of Revelation-which is freaking amazing against Oath.  It also gives you the advantage in the mirror.

Who cares if you can only use Gemstone Mine 3 times before it dies-your opponent should be dead before then.  And it is perfectly fine whle comboing out.  Who cares if you are giving your opponent d00ds with Orchard-they can attack for 1, woohoo.  You are going to kill them before damage actually means anything-or you should be with 6-7 Animates and 4 Bazaars to find them.

I guess a big part of it is the metagames.  Tog is (essentially dead) in the US, therefore you don't need try to win through card advantage, you can win with SB bombs (because maindecks are essentially the same.

SO YOU CAN’T PLAY 5C DRAGON AND COMPULSION.

http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=13134

2 Compulsion

[MoxMonkey]

I have to agree while gaining Card advantage is good having SB bombs such as Sacred Ground and Rays are huge.  Dragon is a good deck but you need to play it above and beyond what you shuld be doing.  Dragon also really likes it Swarms since once he resolves its Good Game.  The 5 color Mana base hasn't had many problems as of yet although NE is low on its Stax matchups.

[Disburden]

Hale Simon got fourth place at Gencon Worlds this year with 5c Dragon. I've tested his list many times and even though he ran a 5c mana base his list was probably the best Dragon list I have played so far. I am not an expert at all with Dragon but Sacred Ground, Xantid Swarm maindecked,and other tools from the 5c mana base won me most games that I wouldn't have won without them.

Boarding in Sacred Ground against anything that runs Wasteland after game one makes the 5c lands not really an issue at all. You just need to figure out how to tap your lands to suffer the least from Orchard tokens and Brass damage. This isn't as hard as it seems.

I also feel Simon's win conditions were optimal at Worlds. I loved the Shivan Hellkite/ Sliver Queen win over Eternal Witness. It wins you the same games without having to deck your opponent. Using the Recall win can cause confusing arguments against players and judges sometimes just don't know what they're doing when it comes to complex combo stack wins.

[dexter]

@disburden

i hope that judge argument was a joke. and besides with witness you dont have to recall to death you can just take inf time walks or whatever you feel like.

[Disburden]

@disburden

i hope that judge argument was a joke. and besides with witness you dont have to recall to death you can just take inf time walks or whatever you feel like.

It obviously was a joke. I was merely saying I find the Sliver Queen/ Hellkite win a lot easier to pull off.

[dicemanx]

I thought it might interest some as to why exactly the 5C build evolved, and why I think that stichadou's list and discussion has a lot of merit (not to mention the results to back it up - were all of those with U/B WGD?).

5C made its first appearance (unless there was an independent development of the build that I am not aware of) at Waterbury earlier this year (Jan or Feb). It was designed primarily to increase the chances against two problematic archetypes at the time: Control Slaver and Drain Oath. Both decks had their respective bombs against Dragon; Control Slaver was running main deck Platinum Angels at the time, and Oath was SBing Ground Seal. Oath's Blessings also completely invalidated Ambassador Laquatus as a sole win condition; Eternal Witness was a natural substitute, but it had obvious issues associated with it. The other two possibilites, Sliver Queen and Caller of the Claw, sometimes were not sufficient to beat Oath even because of the turn delay before winning. It was clear at that time that the most ideal win condition that would solve a lot of problems, including the Platinum Angel issue, was Shivan Hellkite. However the B/r builds were completely insufficient - blue is much too powerful to cut. Splashing red as a third color was also pretty much out of the question - if red was required for the kill, then just about every land you could play in the deck needed to produce red. Hence the birth of the 5C manabase. This opened the way to Shivan Hellkite as the primary win condition, but another win condition was still necessary, since the deck had to use Cities of Brass (or it sometimes needed a way to win off Moxes only). Sliver Queen was a natural choice, because she was also an alternate reanimation target and could actually be hard cast fairly easily.

While it's true that running 5C lands weakens the mana base dramatically, the format was experiencing another drop in tThe 5C mana f Revelation. Ray was a huge against not only Oath of Druids itself, but it could nail one of their nastiest SB cards - Ground Seal. While it's true that Ground Seal doesn't shut off the draw engine like a Tormod's Crypt could, you could at least work around Crypt or bait them to blow it. Oath had Wastelands anyways to kill Bazaars, and they could find them very quickly with their Intuition/AK draw engine. Seal forced you to find a solution, and something like Deed didn't cut it because it was difficult to reslove or even find in time before Oath simply won.The 3 Rays in the SB took care of Oath quite nicely. There were of course other SB cards that could (and still can) take advantage of the 5C manabase. Sacred Ground seems to have some consensus as a necessary hedge against Stax, although it wasn't a popular archetype in Waterbury so no special SB cards were included to fight against it.


In any case, that ends the little history lesson. Conclusion? Things have changed drastically since then, and 5C does get stiff competition from both the U/B and U/B/g versions again. While Hale did an AMAZING job piloting the 5C build to a top 4 finish at Gencon, I think he could have just as easily accomplished it by running a better mana base - I did not see anything in his report or in the decklist that flagged any sort of advantage that the 5C build could give him. In fact, I consider that Waterbury 5C build to be outdated - I would not be playing that version today. Cards like Platinum Angel and Ground Seal have almost disappeared completely, while the Wasteland count seems to have gone up again. Shivan Hellkite is also no longer so critical anymore - Ambassador, for instance, does the job just fine. Furthermore, 5C WGD has to concern itself with Pithing Needle. The card isn't that popular just yet, but it shuts down Bazaar which might force Dragon to either return to the Compulsion plan with some number of basics, or look for alternate solutions (and trust me, there are some *excellent* solutions for the 5C mana base  ).  What really amazes me about this archetype, and why I keep returning to it periodically, is the staggering number of possibilities in terms of the main deck or SB - there is SO much room for innovation, that I'm actually a little disappointed that so little work has been done on the deck. I also always take with a grain of salt any post that claims it contains a definitive WGD list. A significant amount of strength of this archetype comes from two things - the surprise factor and metagaming properly. Of course it also happens to be a difficult deck to play consistently well, even though it does quite frequently get some mindlessly easy wins.

[Dante]

Not running full power is horrible.  Get those extra 2 Moxes in there.  The 1 turn faster you might be is often the difference between winning and losing (esp vs decks like Oath where they give you 1-3 turns once Oath hits).

With 4 U. Sea, 4 Fetch, and 4 basics, there is no need for Underground River - there's room for 1 Mox right there.

Your business cards are animate, necromancy, Intuition, compulsion and they all have at least 1 colorless in them.

[stichadou]

Dexter: I'm sorry, i'd like to explain more but my English is too bad.

1. Why caller over witness? The witness can do so much insane stuff thats its not even fun. And it wins the same turn you go into kombo mode.

I think, it depends of your metagame.Caller>>>witness because it allows to win without mana. If you want to kill in the turn, you have Amabssador. Versus Oath ang gaea's blessing, just side in 1 coffin purge, if you think it's necessary;)
This is a metagame choice.

2. Are stifles really that usefull preboard? I had them in my lists a year ago but they turned out to be fow food 9 outta 10 times so. and the 10th time they werent that amazing either so.

Stifles have different objectives. This card is very polyvalent. Sometimes, this card is bad, no problem, discard it;) But when you use it on wasteland effect, you take a big advantage (tempo). This is also very good versus combo.

3. Why run vampiric over limdulsvault? The vault usually fetches 2-3 missing kombo pieces instead of just 1.

SLOT problem. I like Limdul's vault, but it's too slow. You need two colors, and so 2 lands (except with jet or sapphire, but it's rare). Vampiric allows turn 1 to have a Bazaar. LDV can be counter easier because it's for 2.

4. Why just 2 compulsions? I mean, you usually reeeeeally want an discard / carddrawing outlet round 1. Compulsion is worse than BoB sure. But vs fish and other wasteland packing decks they are amazing.

Compulsion is very slow. This is a very good substitution, because 4 bazaar is not enough.
Yes, it's very good versus fish, but it's too slow. to win versus fish, you have to use 3 or 4 times a bazaar and play a duress before your animate dead. Versus fish, I prefer to have a stifle in hand with a bazaar than compulsion.

Moxlotus:

SO YOU CAN’T PLAY 5C DRAGON AND COMPULSION.
http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=13134

Quote from: Hale Simon's 4th place GenCon deck
2 Compulsion

For me, you can't because it's a very bad choice. But, you do as you wish.

Disburden:

I am not an expert at all with Dragon but Sacred Ground, Xantid Swarm maindecked,and other tools from the 5c mana base won me most games that I wouldn't have won without them.

Then, let do the experts, please;)
You just want to criticize and say anything.
I'd like to see you with your XS versus gift. Gift goldfish turn 4, faster than dragon with a bad hand. Duress can give you more time than XS. I don't know if you know oath/gift, but this is very different when you play turn 1 duress or turn one XS, in this matchup.

Dicemanx:

I thought it might interest some as to why exactly the 5C build evolved, and why I think that stichadou's list and discussion has a lot of merit (not to mention the results to back it up - were all of those with U/B WGD?).

Sorry for the list of results, it was just to be more serious.

I think you're right. The 5c was a very interesting choice for a competition but I tested it for 2 weeks and I find it very irregukar. Ideas are very goods but for me this is impossible to have a 5c dragon better than the 2c one. Some cards are too importants in Dragon and can't be played in 5C.
Sacred ground, Red kills and crop rotation are very goods but we can find good substitutions with Amabassador, Hurkyl's recall, stfile...
But a good mana base can't be exchanged.
Do you agree?

Dante:

I'm full powered but moxens are not really good in Dragon.
Sometimes, I test with Antoine Ruel ( a very good French pro tour player) and he told to me:
"Why, you didn't play dark ritual to play duress+animate dead? You have never enough black mana to play the 2 cards"
And, it's right. Often, you have to play duress+animate dead in the same turn. Blue manas (for compulsion) or black manas are very important.
But I can understand you, and sometimes I tested a full powered version, but I was desappointed;)

[Moxlotus]

You have missed one very important point of the 5-color version.  Sacred Ground makes your manabase untouchable by wastelands AND makes their Stack completely useless.  This is huge-if you get a Sacred Ground on the table it is alost a win.  It's another 2 mana enchantment that wins the game against Stax-one that you can easily play on turn 1. 

5 color also allows you to play with Ray of Revelation-which is freaking amazing against Oath.  It also gives you the advantage in the mirror.

You never addressed the most important part of my post (which is quoted above).  You repeat that the deck has a bad mana base-which it does-but this is completely negated by Sacred Ground.  Sacred ground makes your manabase BETTER against Stax than a U/B version because it stops all Strip effects and Stacks.  No replacement like Stifle or Hurkyl's does that.

If you look at Hale's deck, the maindecks are very similar.  Switch Xantids for Duress and the decks are about 2 spells different only (with the obvious changes in manabase/SB).  I don't see how 5-color can feel irregular when the maindecks are essentially the same.

[MaxxMatt]

I don't see how 5-color can feel irregular when the maindecks are essentially the same.

Playing with Wastable Lands <<<< Playing with Fetch and Basics.
He is trying to argue about the Irregularity brougth from the possible most colored but wastable mana base ever made.

While Fetch + Basics would stop Wastelands by themselves, Sacred Ground would steal space to your maindeck and essentially do nothing if they opponent is going to kill you without using Wastelands or Smokestack locks.

Stifles coupled with Fetch and Basics are the best configuration to have ESSENTIAL tools to trade tempo with opponent's resources.
Wasting space in a combo deck with static cards is ALWAYS fool.
Especially if you can play different blue cards that have a dynamic role on the development of your game plan.

And you have to draw Sacred Ground before opponent's Wastelands and CotVs for 0.
Think about possible and frequent starts with CoW and CotV for 0, or Wastelands and CotVs for 0 or Spheres.
In the worst scenario, you could not be able to reach the second mana on table.
And this scenario can be avoided ONLY by playing a better mana base.

Basics >>>> Hate since two years.
Gifts play 4-5 Islands.
C-Slavery too.
Atog too.
TPS too.
Control based decks too.
Some aggro and aggro control decks too.
All the good NON-MW-Based decks run basics too.

Preventing things is ALWAYS the best way to get rid of problems.



On the Sacred Ground/Smokestack issue I have to add something.
I play with Sacred Ground in the side of my control decks with white (because it is perfect to stop Smokestack ) BUT ITDOESN'T stop it always.
Usually, playing first and wasting resources on finding Sacred Ground to stall a bit the game is really a good plan against them.
On the other hand, a MW.dec's player can rise up the number of Stacks' counters every turn aside with playing more permanents than you every turn, until you have to sacrifice the Sacred Ground itself. A combination of a couple of Smokestack and Wires/Spheres would always stop your game plan, possibily giving him some times to recover from that bad position.
And there are a lot more realated problems while playing with 2-3 or even 4 Sacred Grounds against MW.decs. They are stealing space to other good cards that could have won you the game. Sacred Ground is a stalling good card. Even  if you fail a single lands' drop, you are going to help him "countering" your Sacred-Ground strategy, ompletely ruining your plan.


Maxx

[And11]

"I thought it might interest some as to why exactly the 5C build evolved, and why I think that stichadou's list and discussion has a lot of merit (not to mention the results to back it up - were all of those with U/B WGD?)."

He asked you if you won all of those prizes with a U/B build of Dragon.

[Gabethebabe]

@MoxLotus: Playing SB Sacred Ground does not justify playing a non-basic mana base. Sure, against MW.dec your Sacred Ground will come in, but what to do if you play against some random deck that just support a couple of Wastelands? You are going to side in Sacred Ground, just to protect against their Wastelands?

[dicemanx]

OK, this is getting a little silly. WGD, regardless of whether its the 5C build or the U/B build, doesn't roll over as easily to Wastelands as you would think. Keep in mind that both builds have almost equivalent vulnerabilities to Wastes, because they both play and rely on Bazaar to a significant extent. Getting a couple of non-basic mana producers wasted early might not be so troublesome if you drop a Bazaar and start seeing up to 3 cards a turn.

It is also curious that there's a lot of criticism of the 5C mana base vulnerability, and yet no mention is made of the fact that stichadou's posted list runs ONLY 19 mana sources, and is NOT fully powered?


Regarding Sacred Ground: if the best counter argument against this strategy vs Stax is them getting amazing draws of 1-2 Stacks with multiple counters, some Tangle Wires, Wastelands, and of course some way of stopping the combo (how quickly we forget that WGD can combo out Stax pretty quickly), then it looks like Sacred Ground is a pretty effective tool.

Stifles coupled with Fetch and Basics are the best configuration to have ESSENTIAL tools to trade tempo with opponent's resources.
Wasting space in a combo deck with static cards is ALWAYS fool.
Especially if you can play different blue cards that have a dynamic role on the development of your game plan.

It is not "fool"ish to "waste space" in the combo deck if the card buys you a significant number of turns and protects a very significant combo piece. Either comboing out quickly or protecting your resources so that you can combo off later are both consistent with the "game plan".

Basics >>>> Hate since two years.

This rule doesn't apply so rigidly to fast combo decks, especially when the combo deck relies on a non-basic land to begin with. Perhaps you were hoping that by CAPITALIZING so many words you'd make your argument more effective and hope that people would overlook this fact? Here's an interesting tid-bit: I have actually had games where I opened my first couple of turns with NON-BASICS playing U/B splash builds in order to bait Wastelands, so that I could drop Bazaars without fear of them getting destroyed.

@MoxLotus: Playing SB Sacred Ground does not justify playing a non-basic mana base. Sure, against MW.dec your Sacred Ground will come in, but what to do if you play against some random deck that just support a couple of Wastelands? You are going to side in Sacred Ground, just to protect against their Wastelands?

The answer to that question depends on whether you think 5C Dragon scoops to decks with multiple Wastelands. I won't answer that question for you, because you'd really have to experience it for yourself to appreciate the extent of the perceived vulnerability.

[Jacob Orlove]

If Stifle is so good because it stops one Wasteland activation and occasionally other stuff, why not just run Pithing Needle, and stop all Wastelands for good?

[Shean]

Firstly, I'd like to address the Xantid Swarm vs. Duress discussion:

You have to look at the two lists a bit more closely to realize why Xantid Swarm is better in 5C Dragon (Even against Gifts) than Duress.  If you notice, the 5C Dragon list runs 5 moxen & 3 Lim-dul's Vault.  The list is designed to go: Turn 1 -> Xantid Swarm, Turn 3 or 4 -> win.  Against any control deck, Xantid Swarm is the definite MVP in the 5C list.  The ability to combo  out with no disruption or counterspell backup is invaluable.

On the other hand, the UB Dragon list looks good with duress.  Then again, how hard would it be to turn the Underground River into a Tropical Island and a Swamp into a Bayou?  This would give you 6 green sources (counting fetchlands).  The problem is that the UB Dragon list simply isn't built to combo out as quickly as 5C Dragon.  Xantid Swarm looks great when you are trying to win on turn 3-5, but it will usually be killed shortly thereafter.

As for the sideboard, I believe that the 5C Dragon list will perform better in a heavy stax metagame.  Regardless of how "irrelevant" Sacred Ground is to Dragon's win condition, it effectively makes 12-13 of Stax's weapons completely useless (1 Strip Mine, 4 Wasteland, 3-4 Crucible of Worlds, 4 Smokestax).  While Sacred Ground doesn't help you combo out, it keeps your manabase and, more importantly, your draw engine intact.  Sacred Ground means that you don't have to scoop to Turn 1 > Crucible, Turn 2 > Crop Rotation or Strip Mine.  Running 4 Fetchlands and 4 Basic Lands will never be able to accomplish that.

Regarding the Gifts match up:  Look at the top 3 lists from SCG Richmond.  They're running Belcher + Mana Severance.  While it's true that Gifts Tendrils can goldfish on Turn 4, Gifts Control (Gifts Belcher) needs to grab some Mana Drain mana to do so.  Keep in mind that Gifts will rarely get more than 2 mana off a Mana Drain against Dragon.  The Belcher + Mana Severance combo is simply not fast enough to race Dragon's immediate win condition (Note: this may change with the new Time Vault + Flame Fusillade win condition on 10/20). The fastest win condition that the popular Gifts list can produce is Tinker + Colossus.  Once they Tinker in a Colossus, you have at least 1 turn to try to win (Perhaps 2 turns, if they don't Time Walk).  Keep in mind that Gifts doesn't use Wastelands, your manabase and draw engine are intact.  Couple that with a good 0/1 flying Insect on your side of the board and suddenly you only need to find a single animate or bounce spell.

[MaxxMatt]

@Jacob

Stifle is a good blue card that rise a bit the total number of cards to feed FoWs.
Needle is better because of his global effect but I think that the surprise effect of not seeing it on board or fearing it every turn, can play a better role.
On the other hand, Needle would swap in and out during the Dragon-Combo.
You cannot protect with Needles yourself from Tormod's Crypts.

In summary, Stile is Tricky and blue.
Two fat things to weigth.

Maybe Stifles can be coupled to Needles to enanche the sinergies.




@Dicemanxx

Try to think about Wastelands PLUS CotVs for Moxen and you would easily see how the NONbasics configuration would autoscoop to them.

Only Wastelands usually did not so much to that combo deck, but as can be easily read, I argued to other hate COUPLED with Wastelands.

[Dante]

I'm full powered but moxens are not really good in Dragon.
Sometimes, I test with Antoine Ruel ( a very good French pro tour player) and he told to me:
"Why, you didn't play dark ritual to play duress+animate dead? You have never enough black mana to play the 2 cards"
And, it's right. Often, you have to play duress+animate dead in the same turn. Blue manas (for compulsion) or black manas are very important.
But I can understand you, and sometimes I tested a full powered version, but I was desappointed;)

Moxen aren't good in Dragon??  What do you think allows you to go turn 1 Bazaar, turn two land, mox, animate Win.  Or turn 1 intuition, turn two bazaar, animate.  Etc. 

You still only get to play 1 land per turn.  With a 21-card mana base including the 8 artifact mana, I've never had a problem getting two mana-producing lands on the table in two or three color.  Full power helps you cast Intuition, your animate spells, compulsion, etc - everthing that sets up your deck to win (or actually win if it's the animate) except bazaar.  I could MAYBE understand your arguement if you replaced some of the Moxen with dark rituals, lotus petal (it's on color), or something, but you just dropped them.  That's not "faster" or "better", it's just less.

Anywhere in the US, especially Chicago-area, a 19-card mana base that's not fully powered wouldn't last.

Bill

[cssamerican]

Basics are oviously better at preventing the random Wasteland from setting you back a notch in tempo; however, no deck can do anything about a CoW/Strip lock without some kind of dedicated answer. Now that Stax has four tutors to get Strip Mine and four tutors to get CoW, I am not sure how much better basics actually are in decks other than blue based control. This because those are the only decks that have reliable counter magic to stop the Tutor for Strip Mine play. So, I don't think there is much to be gained by running basics in Dragon. Now if for some reason everyone starts packing Blood Moons and/or Back to Basics then this argument for basics might hold some water. Also this idea that life loss from the rainbow lands is going to bite you in the ass on a regular basis is foolish, the only decks where that really matters is aggro and you should beat aggro all day long.

I also agree with Dante, its crazy not to run the full set of power. You have lots of spells to dump  colorless mana into, and there is no reason why you should give other decks a chance to goldfish faster than you.

[dicemanx]

@Dicemanxx

Try to think about Wastelands PLUS CotVs for Moxen and you would easily see how the NONbasics configuration would autoscoop to them.

I believe that this comment, plus others in the thread, fail to appreciate the fact that non-basic hate hits both the 5C and U/B decks hard. Running a few basics won't always miraculously save you if you don't have a Bazaar to play with. Well, at least with U/B you will have some pretty little Islands and Swamps to look at on your side of the board as you are in the process of losing. Plus, given the fact that the originial deck listed has a grand total of 0 Lim Duls' Vaults, a Bazaar might end up netting you nothing when it counts (when they have an untapped Waste on their side of their board). At least with Vaults you can set up Bazaar + Dragon before it gets wasted and you can try to go off with Intuition (it would be good to actually run 4 Intuition of course).

In any case, while I haven't made a full comparison, I might even dare to suggest, in MaxxMatt style,

5C + Sacred Ground >>>>>>>>>> 4 measly basic lands

Is that enough ">"  in there? .


 

[dexter]

Kinda amusing this discussion about the wasteland killings of dragon, why doesnt anyone mention pithing needle that totally killed the deck? Second the list in the first post can easily go up to 5 basic by cutting the very random underground river. 5 basics + 5 fetches is very good vs a deck thats packing full strip 5 effects.

IF you really are that much for the sacred ground i dont see a bigger problem with cutting (in this list) 1 underground river + 1 island to add 1 tundra and 1 scrubland to get steady access to sacred ground AND perhaps more importantly Abeynce that stops alot of the dragon hate running around out there.

[stichadou]

Anywhere in the US, especially Chicago-area, a 19-card mana base that's not fully powered wouldn't last.

This is the PROBLEM. How do you explain my resuls with this deck? Because Europeans or Frenches are less good than Americans?
No, it's wrong. look at the first DCI Player Olivier Ruel is French, look at also the Rookie and the player of the Year, last year: Nassif is French too.
This is not because we are not american, that we are bad.
This is the problem of this discuss. I think you forget, you are talking to a man who won 4 or 5 tourney WITH DRAGON. We were 400 in French Vintage Championship, and not 120/130 like at the Gencon, don't forget it.
So, please stop to judge before to know.
yes, there is 19 manas in my build, but for me, to have only a Bazaar is the same to have a mana land, because between the draw 2 and the next turn, you will find a mana land.
And I don't talk about your wish to play 5 moxens with 3 null rod in side;)
This is totally stupid to judge about the number of manas. Test and you will see.

This is really easy to criticize the build with theory and superiority feelings.

I will answer to the other question tonight because I'm now at the office.

[PipOC]

Anywhere in the US, especially Chicago-area, a 19-card mana base that's not fully powered wouldn't last.

This is the PROBLEM. How do you explain my resuls with this deck? Because Europeans or Frenches are less good than Americans?

Chicago is a workshop playground, meaning vast fields of wastelands, he wasn't saying anrhing about nationality.

[stichadou]

Anywhere in the US, especially Chicago-area, a 19-card mana base that's not fully powered wouldn't last.

This is the PROBLEM. How do you explain my resuls with this deck? Because Europeans or Frenches are less good than Americans?


Chicago is a workshop playground, meaning vast fields of wastelands, he wasn't saying anrhing about nationality.

Maybe, you're right but:

Anywhere in the US

...
This is not the problem, i'd just like to recall that Europeans aren't less good than Americans, that's it.

About this workshop playground:
I prefer to have 4 basics+4 fetchs and 3 mox versus staks to have o basics and 5 moxens. 2 wasteland+chalice at 0, and 5c dragon can't do anything.
Of course after side, I prefer to have ground seal but, if i'm sur to lose the first one, I'm not sure.

I think, in French vintage chmpioship, for example, I played versus 4 workshop deck, so...

[dicemanx]

No, it's wrong. look at the first DCI Player Olivier Ruel is French, look at also the Rookie and the player of the Year, last year: Nassif is French too.
This is not because we are not american, that we are bad.

Keep in mind that pros are also capable of coming up with some horrid decklists, and they too can be wrong in their theorizing. Citing endorsement by pro-players who likely don't fully understand all of the subtleties of a deceptively simple but actually quite complex deck doesn't carry much weight.

This is the problem of this discuss. I think you forget, you are talking to a man who won 4 or 5 tourney WITH DRAGON. We were 400 in French Vintage Championship, and not 120/130 like at the Gencon, don't forget it.

Don't forget that the more players you have, and *especially* if the event is sanctioned, the more it favors a deck like WGD. I'm not trying to diminish your accomplishments, but keep in mind that what works for you in Europe won't translate automatically into success over here. On top of it all, there are a handful of players that have enjoyed success with a *variety* of WGD builds, 5C included. The important thing is to understand under what conditions certain builds thrive, rather than come up with some sort of definitive WGD list which quite frankly doesn't exist.

2 wasteland+chalice at 0, and 5c dragon can't do anything.
Of course after side, I prefer to have ground seal but, if i'm sur to lose the first one, I'm not sure.

That might be an issue...if all the US builds actually played Chalice of the Void main. Perhaps they all should, who knows, but tell that to the winner of Gencon this year. Plus, 5C WGD autolosing to Stax is certainly news to me; if anything, the average Stax player probably fears WGD the most because of how fast it is and because of its ability to win at instant speed.

This is totally stupid to judge about the number of manas. Test and you will see.
This is really easy to criticize the build with theory and superiority feelings.

Our criticism is not solely based on theory. We test and play the deck with some success in this country too. You can win with 19 mana (its been done here before), but it involves a significant risk because you become much more dependent on early Bazaars. If you're lucky (in terms of how well you draw with the deck and who you get paired against), the pay off from having 2 extra business spells will of course be beneficial. If I knew I'd be facing T1T and Gifts all day, you bet your ass I'd be playing 19 mana too!



Edit:

Just a more general note - it is a little arrogant to believe that the size of an event is correlated with its importance in terms of determining the strength of a given deck or build. It's not that at all - it really comes down to the individual matches and the competency of the opposition. A 30 man event can be just as rigorous as a 300 man event if you are facing top tier decks every round. 

[stichadou]

So, if I say: FRENCH Vintage Championship was harder to win than th Gencon, you will kill me??

I agree with you about metagame choice. This is not because a deck is good in Europe that this deck will be good in USA. For example, Madness is a very good deck in Europe but I never see it, in an American top8, why??

I have only one way to show you that this deck is very good, this is to win a lot of tourneys in USA, but I can't...That's too bad.
I don't just win this tourney, if I listed every result, this is to show you, that was not an exploit. And some friends played the same deck in Tours or clichy, and good ones, did also good results.

[And11]

When you open a thread on TMD, you'll have to learn to adress questions/critisisms in a reasonable way, instead of going defence on us, man But remember that most of the helpful guys on this board plays in a whole different environment than you, and therefor will respond differently than you might have expected. Be open minded.

Another thought: What's the point in starting a thread about a deck, you've already won a bunch of tournies with and you feel that you have fully explored? That's kind of how I read your replies. That "you're not gonna tell me how to play/build d4rgr0n" and you already know what's optimal. Then why start this thread?

It's getting late here in Denmark, so never mind the pi**ed off attitude

European love etc.,
/Andreas

[Dante]

Anywhere in the US, especially Chicago-area, a 19-card mana base that's not fully powered wouldn't last.

This is the PROBLEM. How do you explain my resuls with this deck? Because Europeans or Frenches are less good than Americans?
No, it's wrong. look at the first DCI Player Olivier Ruel is French, look at also the Rookie and the player of the Year, last year: Nassif is French too.
This is not because we are not american, that we are bad.
This is the problem of this discuss. I think you forget, you are talking to a man who won 4 or 5 tourney WITH DRAGON. We were 400 in French Vintage Championship, and not 120/130 like at the Gencon, don't forget it.
So, please stop to judge before to know.
yes, there is 19 manas in my build, but for me, to have only a Bazaar is the same to have a mana land, because between the draw 2 and the next turn, you will find a mana land.
And I don't talk about your wish to play 5 moxens with 3 null rod in side;)
This is totally stupid to judge about the number of manas. Test and you will see.

This is really easy to criticize the build with theory and superiority feelings.

I will answer to the other question tonight because I'm now at the office.

Dude - settle down.  If you weren't prepared to discuss things on merit, other than "I won tournaments, I'm right", then please go away.

Anyhow - I came in 9th at Worlds in 2004.  I had full power + null rods in the side. Guess what moxes let you do - cast turn 1 Null Rod!  Against decks that it matters against (like Belcher), turn 1 null rod or chalice for 1 gives you enough time to win.  Against my matches vs Deathlong and Belcher, turn 1 Null Rods (both powered by Mox pearl) were the difference between winning and losing (Chalice helped as well, but they could have gotten out from Chalice).  You don't want to give those decks an extra turn NOT to drop that bomb.  Running full power and Null Rods are not mutually exclusive.

My comment on the manabase had to do with the amount of workshops I see in my area, not your country's playskill.  19-card mana bases don't work in workshop heavy areas, regardless of 4 basics or not.

The only Pro players who have had any sustained success at Vintage (at least that post here or are otherwise known) are Andy Stokinger and Tom Vand....(I can't spell his last name, former World Champ).  Funnily enough, they both played Dragon most of the time.  Other than Pros with EXPERIENCE in the format, they haven't done well.  So I'll take their comments and ideas to heart as much as any other player, but not more.

Maybe, rather than posting your decklist, saying "I won this stuff", and expecting us to fawn over it, you could tell us what your environment looks like and why you chose certain things.  You start to do this, but then every time criticism comes up, you get defensive and lash out.

On a more constructive note, do people thjink that the addition of Darkblast to decks like Control Slaver and Gifts (preboard from what I'm hearing, especially in CS) are going to lessen the impact of Xantid Swarm?  XS is huge in those matchups, both in terms of winning if resolved (and a decent hand to go with it), as well as being a surefire way to pull FoW.

[And11]

I still think that Darkblast is way too narrow to make to any maindecks. There are other ways to deal with Welders pre-board, that are also useful in other matchups/situations. Cunning Wish, MoxMonkey or Fire/Ice to name a few. Obviously, these are not as good as Darkblast at hating out Welders, but are way more useful in every non-Welder matchup and remember that we're pre-sideboarding, so you can still pack all the focused hate in the board.