The real Dragon power;)

[UR]

why doesnt anyone mention pithing needle that totally killed the deck?

Because the needle does nothing against the Eternal Witness win and most dragon decks have two win-conditions anway. If you play the needle on Ambassador, they will just use the Hellkite or Sliver Queen (par example).

[nataz]

to be fair,

I think most people would play the needle on bazaar unless they were sure the deck wasn't running witness.

[stichadou]

You are changing your story. And now you attack StP?

Read this 3 sentences, I wrote before:

I agree with you. 5c is a good idea and some cards are very goods but some choices are very bad like swords or compulsion in this deck.

I thnk a 5c version is a very very good idea, but for me some cards are not good. I repeat, for example, XS or compulsion. Some ones are very good like ground seal or crop rotation.

Of course, Ground seal is very very good versus staks, but that is not enought for a splash in my opinion. Of course, XS is very very good when you can kill turn 3, but it's very bad when you have a quite good hand.

Sacred ground, crop rotation, balance and red kill are very interesting solutions. But this version has a lot of weaknesses.

Maybe my English is too bad and theses sentences are very different but for me, I never changing my opinion about 5c. There are very good cards, and some bad choices and bad combo (compulsion and burning lands, sorry Mox Lotus, but if you don't understant, why this card is bad in this deck, I don't do anything for you).

I would actually cut the card in the latest iteration of the 5C build, but that's a discussion for another time.

I agrre with you. sword is very bad in this Sideboard.

I repeat my question:
For you, Gencon was THE REFERENCIAL EVENT, even if French Championship accounted 400 players??

No, but it (for whatever reason) seems to be a "referencial event" for you. I don't look at any one specific event as a defining point in determining the best version of the deck; my interest lies in understanding how the deck performs against the field REGARDLESS of what event its played in, be it a 30 man event or a 300 man event. Yet you probably think that 30 man (or even 100 man) events where almost everyone is fully powered and playing good decks AND gunning for you with powerful SB hate is automatically inferior to 400 man events that are sanctioned. If you believe this, don't let me stop you in indulging in your delusional fantasies.

I think our discuss about results is very stupid. I know, this result (top 4 with 5c) come from a lot of tests and work, and i hope you understand this is the same for dragon u/b.

[dicemanx]

I think our discuss about results is very stupid. I know, this result (top 4 with 5c) come from a lot of tests and work, and i hope you understand this is the same for dragon u/b.

I'm totally in agreement with you. U/B is obviously a very fine choice in your neck of the woods, given your success.

[Moxlotus]

compulsion and burning lands, sorry Mox Lotus, but if you don't understant, why this card is bad in this deck, I don't do anything for you

Apparently you can't go infinite with Compulsion and Gemstone Mine or Orchard or Glimmervoid...

[stichadou]

I didn't have enough time to test good substitutions in 5c but compulsion is for me a big problem.

I remember, I tested ( in 5c) to do:
- 2 compulsion
+1 LDVault
+1 Imperial seal
The deck was better but you are too dependant of bazaar of baghdad, and you can't manage a needle:(

[UR]

I think most people would play the needle on bazaar unless they were sure the deck wasn't running witness.

But that doesn't 'totally kill' the deck. It will make it harder to win, yes... but the same goes for all decks (Goblin Welder, Goblin Charbelcher, Auriok Salvagers, etc. are all good choices).

[Dante]

I think most people would play the needle on bazaar unless they were sure the deck wasn't running witness.

But that doesn't 'totally kill' the deck. It will make it harder to win, yes... but the same goes for all decks (Goblin Welder, Goblin Charbelcher, Auriok Salvagers, etc. are all good choices).

True, you can still win.  But in most versions that run 0-2 Compulsion and 2-3 Intuition, you're stuck trying to dig up one of those few Compulsions OR you have to intuition TWICE (if your first Intuition has 2 Dragons and kill, you're stuck with the kill in your hand.  Vice versa if you get both kill conditions + 1 dragon).  Or you have to dig for your 1 maindeck bounce spell.  all of these are probably enough to slow the Dragon player down enough where the other player will win.

If Pithing Needle becomes more popular, Dragon will need to adapt with other discard outlets (or find other ways around Needle).

[carlossb]

If Pithing Needle becomes more popular, Dragon will need to adapt with other discard outlets (or find other ways around Needle).

Maybe playing with Thirst solves this (future) problem. It also helps you to discard those CoTv and NullRods you´re holding after sideboarding.

[dicemanx]

you have to intuition TWICE (if your first Intuition has 2 Dragons and kill, you're stuck with the kill in your hand.  Vice versa if you get both kill conditions + 1 dragon).

True, but not always. For instance, if you get at least one activation out of Bazaar and dump a Squee into the graveyard, just make sure you leave it there if they Needle the Bazaar afterwards. Alternately, you still have Xantids and Squees that can be cast and might find their way into the graveyard after blocking or getting countered. Then you can Intuition for 2 WGD + your kill spell, Animate WGD, generate enough mana, stop the loop on the Squee or Xantid in the grave, then hardcast the kill card and win. The last option is to of course just hard cast Sliver Queen in 5C (if that is one of the kil cards).

These options are not amazing or anything, but one always has to be wary of not making the "automatic" play like always returning Squees from the graveyard.

[adrienger]

you have to intuition TWICE (if your first Intuition has 2 Dragons and kill, you're stuck with the kill in your hand.  Vice versa if you get both kill conditions + 1 dragon).

True, but not always. For instance, if you get at least one activation out of Bazaar and dump a Squee into the graveyard, just make sure you leave it there if they Needle the Bazaar afterwards. Alternately, you still have Xantids and Squees that can be cast and might find their way into the graveyard after blocking or getting countered. Then you can Intuition for 2 WGD + your kill spell, Animate WGD, generate enough mana, stop the loop on the Squee or Xantid in the grave, then hardcast the kill card and win. The last option is to of course just hard cast Sliver Queen in 5C (if that is one of the kil cards).

These options are not amazing or anything, but one always has to be wary of not making the "automatic" play like always returning Squees from the graveyard.

or you can just use your squee as usual and use your BoB in response to the needle...what's the point in leaving a squee in the grave after the first activation?

[Dante]

you have to intuition TWICE (if your first Intuition has 2 Dragons and kill, you're stuck with the kill in your hand.  Vice versa if you get both kill conditions + 1 dragon).

True, but not always. For instance, if you get at least one activation out of Bazaar and dump a Squee into the graveyard, just make sure you leave it there if they Needle the Bazaar afterwards. Alternately, you still have Xantids and Squees that can be cast and might find their way into the graveyard after blocking or getting countered. Then you can Intuition for 2 WGD + your kill spell, Animate WGD, generate enough mana, stop the loop on the Squee or Xantid in the grave, then hardcast the kill card and win. The last option is to of course just hard cast Sliver Queen in 5C (if that is one of the kil cards).

These options are not amazing or anything, but one always has to be wary of not making the "automatic" play like always returning Squees from the graveyard.

or you can just use your squee as usual and use your BoB in response to the needle...what's the point in leaving a squee in the grave after the first activation?

If there's no other creatures but a Dragon in the graveyard, you can't stop the loop.  If you bring Squee to hand with no discard outlet and no other creatures in graveyard, you can't stop the loop.

[dicemanx]

or you can just use your squee as usual and use your BoB in response to the needle...what's the point in leaving a squee in the grave after the first activation?

Yes, but what I meant was this kind of scenario: You play Bazaar. On their turn they play Needle, to which you respond with Bazaar, dumping Squee. On your turn, you don't return the Squee to your hand.

If you resolve Compulsion at some point (if you are running it),then you can return Squee.

[UR]

I think I would sideboard in the Verdant Force plan if I knew my opponent was going to hit me with a Needle...

Needle isn't strong enough to be in a sideboard and half the time you won't be running it mainboard either because you have so many choices in this format on how to play a deck and needle won't really be necessary. Most people will just try to use Wasteland on your bazaar anyway...

For now, I'm not really worried about the needle... this may change ofcourse.

[Purple Hat]

since a lot has been made of my use of swords in the sideboard I guess I should explain why I did it.  I hadn't tested the gifts matchup going into gencon.  I had graduated from college and moved and hadn't had much time.  I saw the numbers smennen was claiming and read some about gifts and thought it might be a problem, swords was a sideboard card for DSC.  if I was gonna do it again I'd put something else there I think because I no longer believe gifts to be a problem.  but I think it's important to note that it's a SIDEBOARD CARD.  it's not integral to how the deck functions.  its there to give you an answer to a specific narrow threat.  the ability to add these types of answers, efficient narrow answers, is one of the strongest ponts of 5c dragon.

[Fatality4Life]

I liked the idea of a 5-color Dragon very much from the beginning, especially because of the always mentioned Sacred Ground and the win condition Shivan Hellkite, which is the best available dealing with Platinum Angel.
Stephane, you asked us to ask you question about Dragon, so if and only if (even if it's debatable worse than your UB-build) you were to play 5c-Dragon, what changes would you make in comparison to Hale's List ?

[Bulls on Parade]

5C Dragon is a good deck, but I don't really understand the necessity.
U/B has all the answers, and is plenty fast and  consistent.
I've been playing this list for _ever_ (EE and Witness are obviously relatively "new") but the idea has been the same as long as I've played the deck.

4 Duress
4 Force of Will
4 Worldgorger Dragon
1 Eternal Witness
3 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
4 Intuition
2 Compulsion
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Animate Dead
3 Necromancy
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
3 Island
3 Swamp

Lots of basics, simple game plan. We should refer to Duress and Force of Will as Bacardi and Cola, because they ALWAYS get the job done. I've played thousands of games both with and without Xantid, and I prefer Duress because it's always good enough. Sure I occasionally wish I had Xantid, but much more often I would wish the Xantid were a Duress.  Fast combo (Belcher) can be tough to handle, and you actually need Duress here. To be honest, I'd probably cut Force for Xantids before I cut Duress.

[UR]

Right now I'm running the Swarm but I'm thinking about going with Duress. I agree with cutting the FoW because there are 'few' blue cards in the deck and even fewer that you'd want to throw away...

But in a Stax-heavy meta you need Sacred Ground. Balance isn't a bad card either...

[Bulls on Parade]

But in a Stax-heavy meta you need Sacred Ground.

I'm quite confident you don't. It does make the matchup much easier, but you do not need it to win. Dragon will still take a large amount of games vs. Stax without Sacred Ground.

[goobafish]

Five colour dragon also has the enormous advantage of Xantid Swarm (of which I MD 3). This card is ridiculous and eliminates almost all hate against dragon. Not only can they not counter, they can't stifle or StP. All they can possibly have is seal which once it hits table you need to get rid of it before you go off. Sacred ground is definately a plus against Stax or Fish, Dragon's manabase is fragile, especially 5cc, but with Sacred Grounds it increases considerably. Duresses are fine, but they impede tempo and are a 1 for 1 trade while Xantids can shut down way more than 1 card.

[merfolkOTPT]

I have two questions is, a is there  a non 5C or BU list floating around that is current?  I think BUG is decent but there hasn't been much discussion past the fact that is might be useful. Secondly, has anyone considered Shadow of Doubt  in any of the builds it answers Gifts, is in our colors, and can be pitched to FOW.  Is there something i am missing about this card that makes it suck?

[Lunar]

sorry to skirt around the previous post...but I wanted to speak on some other things...

*Duress vs Xantid Swarm....

I am currently running a 5c mana base...the flexibility in the SB it offers is just too much for me to ignore, ray of revelations and sacred grounds are just really nice to have access to (among others) That being said I am currently running Duress over Xantid Swarm.... :shock:

Duress gives me an option that XS doesnt...disruption...plain and simple XS does nothing to stop other decks from just doing their thing. Duress at least gives me the option of nabbing tinkers and forces and other nasty tidbits out of opponents hands. While XS is certainly juicy if it resolves against control, it really does me no good in any other matchups where Duress/force of will, will most likely be able to deal with any hate that is coming my way...Duress gets the nod here from me, XS can still go into the SB if you feel you need it (heck right now im running 2 xantids on top of it all in my SB)

*Compulsion-LimDulsVault-ThirstforKnowledge-Deepanalysis....

I hate compulsion....I really do....sometimes you just have to have it, but it most cases I just cant stand the darn thing.  With Sacred Ground in the SB against Crucible/Waste recursion and anti-stax in general do we really need to be running compulsion?

LimDuls Vault is another question for me...sometimes its great for me, sometimes I hate it....its always frustrating for me to draw it when I need something NOW and it wont get it for me until next turn (if I dont have bazaar or something on the table) How many of you guys have tried running Thirst or Deep Anal or even both?  Right now in my list (originally based off Hale's worlds list) I am running several thirst for knowledges in place of vaults...the mana requirement is not too much more in reality for a powered deck and thirst yields me answers now...its a discard outlet to make up for me only running 1 compulsion as well right now.  Thirst also has shown me that Force of Will can be really really really good compared to previous lists I used that ran vaults...The ease of getting into force or a blue card are easily accomplised via Thirst (well at least easier than vault which really does nothing to help force other than being blue.) and Thirst also digs me deeper sooner...

Deep Analysis as well isnt a bad option if card advantage is something you are in real need of. Right now I am finding Thirst to be better for me, simply due to the discard taking precidence over advantage...especially with only 1 compulsion for me right now...

In initial testing friday night the list went...3-0 vs JDizzles belcher list, 2-2 against a Shay like CS, 2-0 against UW Fish, and 6-1 against Gifts (no MD needles though...) I realize this is just minor testing, but it is a good sign (since I feel my teammates are pretty decent players, so the testing is quality) Thirst was definatly an all star in a number of cases for me...although my favorite thing in Hale's list is the 3:3 ratio of Necromancy:Animate Dead....no messing around with 2:2:2 or 3:2:2 adding in dance of the dead and stuff in there....if I could justify adding one more animate spell into this particular list id probably toss in another necromancy since it was so very good for me.  I will try to get up a list today for it...give me an hour or two for business to slow down at my work though, heh...

[goobafish]

I agree that duress is great in a combo match, but currently most of the decks that i see (im not sure about elsewere) are control. Xantid>Duress in a control matchup, as it stops counters aswell as swords, disenchant, stifle ect. I also am not a fan of cumpulsion as it provides no immediate effect when played and slws down Dragon tempo. Lim Dul's vault is great in UB but not good in 5cc.

[Lunar]

but Duress>Xantid in the Workshop matchup and the Combo matchup thats 2 to 1...heh...I also dont find duress to be bad at all against control, it gets rid of a counter or a major threat (like will or tinker) and still protects against disruption aimed at the combo...

[Bulls on Parade]

If you're playing the deck well enough, you're going to beat control a LOT with Duress anyway. I feel like a lot of inexperienced players (as far as Dragon goes, anyway) need Xantid as a crutch.

[goobafish]

I am fairly experienced with the deck, especially against workshop based.
While I agree that Xantid is a dead card against stax and against some combo, it is still quite strong.
First of all Lunar, it is not 2 to 1, you are forgetting that there is a ratio of control to others, control includes combo/control, fish based decks and other of those sorts. Xantid is also strong against most decks that run SB disruption like swords and stifle, which is very important to stop.

[yespuhyren]

Duress is usually better than Xantids, still, because its never a dead card.  If your opponent has 2 answers, then duress can only get 1.  Then again, they can just use 1 on the Xantid and 1 on the dragon.  Both are good cards, but I would still play duress over Xantid.

[Lunar]

in your response gooba you mention that it isnt a 2:1 ratio...I disagree...certainly in some areas this isnt the case, but im speaking to the general meta...

You specifically mention combo/control...I would MUCH rather have Duress in this matchup than Xantid swarm, to stop BOTH their combo and their control, being able to nab away things like tinker and will among many others can be every bit as key as preventing them from blue elemental blasting your dragon...

Beyond that however you mention that Xantid is important for stopping things like STP and others...well, duress can do that, and you also have Force of Will in the deck...you also have cool things like Necromancy that allows you to respond to things like this and win with their stuff on the stack still...Xantid swarm lets people win games they shouldnt win at times, but Duress does the same but also rewards careful play and strong skills.

Xantid swarm is going to be just about as effective coming out of your SB in the control matchups you feel you need them in anyways...

Remember, I am NOT saying that Xantid cant be used or even that it shouldnt be used (I am sure there are metas out there where you might need to run them MD) I just find Duress to be a better option in the long run for the reasons previously stated.

[dicemanx]

I've always greatly favored Xantid Swarm over Duress, but I do recognize that Duress can be the superior card at times depending on the meta. However, I don't think the debate is really this simple, because it doesn't just come down to "Duress vs Xantid". The question of which card is "superior" can heavily depend on what other disruption cards (if any) are run, and what the rest of the MD looks like. For instance, when running Duress it is more important to run 7+ animate effects, because you cannot always rely on Duress to force through the combo. In fact, because control has *increased* its goldfish (from slow decks like Keeper to the much faster decks like Gifts, CS and Oath) it is more important to Duress early to stop your opponent's goldfish rather than save it to force through your combo. As a result you need to see enough Animates to force them past their disruption, and cards like Lim Dul's Vault increase in importance because it is extremely important to set yourself up with Bazaar + WGD to limit your opponent's game plan and make him worry about what you are doing rather than having him focus on winning by playing his own game.

In any case, my philosophy with the deck is the based on the following assertions:

1) Xantid over Duress improves all control match-ups. Early Xantids allow you to set up faster than your opponent. You cannot neglect WGD's goldfish speed! I think the best game plan is to lower your horns and charge instead of concerning yourself with your opponent's gameplan. WGD *must* assume the beatdown role in its matches against control, and Xantids are a huge part of that game plan. There is also one other consideration, and that is the post SB gameplan. They will likely increase the number of MD hate cards against you, and you might be overwhelmed by the sheer numbers. There's nothing more depressing than Duressing and seeing multiple Bounce/Drain/FoW/BEB/Coffin Purge etc in their hands. Lunar's suggestion was to potentially put Xantids in the SB, but I find that SB space is at a premium and there is little room for such luxury. I'd pick my disruption spell and stick with it rather than interchance them after game 1.

2) Xantids are weaker than Duress against Stax/Shop decks, but only marginally. In fact, both are largely unneccessary, *unless* you get lucky and nab an important Stax piece turn 1 that would otherwise prevent you from comboing off faster. Xantid is not entirely useless though - it does function as a permanent that sacrifices to Smokestack and taps to Tange Wire. Still, WGD should have an edge in this match-up, and it is questionable if Duress improves it significantly. If it doesn't, then it doesn't add enough to the argument of Duress > Xantid.

3) WGD concedes game 1 against fast combo (Belcher, Long) unless it gets stupid lucky and combos faster. Fast combo is already very rare in the format, and unless you anticipate a *lot* of such decks showing up to your local event, I would not design any WGD main deck with such decks in mind. Sure, Duress is orders of magnitude better here, but again it is debatable whether this is going to be significant enough. I anticipate getting crushed game 1 in this match up regardless of whether I am running Duress or Xantid. The best strategy to contend with these decks has been in my opinion a combination of Null Rod and CotV in the SB. I've dropped the Null Rods a lng time ago because the fast combo decks have all but disappeared locally, and I seriously doubt that Smmenen's (or JDizzle's) recent fine performances at SCGP9 Chicago will spark a resurgence in these archetypes. (Plus, Belcher suffers from a *huge* drawback of getting nailed by Pithing Needle, which is another card that WGD can run in the MD).

4) Last but not least, the mirror. The mirror can come down to two cards: Xantid Swarm and Ray of Revelation. Yes, the Ray means that this is a post SB battle, but I doubt there is room to allow for the luxury of SB Xantids. Simply put, the WGD with the Xantid will beat the WGD with the Duress, with all other things being equal, because Duress and FoW cannot deal with multiple Rays. Of course the mirror can be improved with other cards like Tormod's Crypt or other graveyard removal (or even stuff like StP), but usually WGD lacks the SB space for such cards. Still, as with fast combo, the mirror might very well be much too infrequent for any of this to matter.


Despite this philosophy I have towards WGD's disruption of choice, there might be one card that could dissuade me - Darkblast. Right now I'm not seeing this card played in the MD's at all, but if it becomes at least a 1 of in any deck sporting black that might be enough to tip the scales in Duress's favor. 
 

[stichadou]

1) Xantid over Duress improves all control match-ups. Early Xantids allow you to set up faster than your opponent. You cannot neglect WGD's goldfish speed! I think the best game plan is to lower your horns and charge instead of concerning yourself with your opponent's gameplan. WGD *must* assume the beatdown role in its matches against control, and Xantids are a huge part of that game plan. There is also one other consideration, and that is the post SB gameplan. They will likely increase the number of MD hate cards against you, and you might be overwhelmed by the sheer numbers. There's nothing more depressing than Duressing and seeing multiple Bounce/Drain/FoW/BEB/Coffin Purge etc in their hands. Lunar's suggestion was to potentially put Xantids in the SB, but I find that SB space is at a premium and there is little room for such luxury. I'd pick my disruption spell and stick with it rather than interchance them after game 1.

Your example is very interesting and i desagree with you  :?again :lol:
Imagine a game versus gift for example, after side. A "typical" hand is:
1 or 2 counters (fow or drain), 1 hate, 2 land, 1 mox, 1 gift, 1 brainstorm.
If the hate don't stop my draw engine, like blue elemental, bounce or something like that, my first target for duress is brainstorm or gift, if the mox is a mana crypt
With turn 1 Xantid, your opponent can force it and have also 1 hate, can play brainstorm and take an advantage against you. This advantage is very big if you're playing a deck since CA cards like deep analysis.
Against control, Xantid and duress are very different depending of your hand and your opponent hand. For me, using a duress allows to choice a way:
-1 : stopping opponent broken hand
-2 : discarding fow or a drain because you have a broken hand.
With Xantid, you don't have the first solution even if the second one is better with Xantid than with duress.

4) Last but not least, the mirror. The mirror can come down to two cards: Xantid Swarm and Ray of Revelation. Yes, the Ray means that this is a post SB battle, but I doubt there is room to allow for the luxury of SB Xantids. Simply put, the WGD with the Xantid will beat the WGD with the Duress, with all other things being equal, because Duress and FoW cannot deal with multiple Rays. Of course the mirror can be improved with other cards like Tormod's Crypt or other graveyard removal (or even stuff like StP), but usually WGD lacks the SB space for such cards. Still, as with fast combo, the mirror might very well be much too infrequent for any of this to matter.

The key of a mirror is bazaar of baghdad and squee, not duress or xantid swarm. And to have this bazaar and have a chance to stop your opponent to find it, i prefer use a duress and maybe find a demonic or other tutor. In mirror, if i can force a vampiric turn 1, i do it;)
What is the difference in this matchup, between coffin purge and ray or revelation? Just coffin purge is better, because this card allows to stop the draw engine and ray of revelation, don't do it.
I don't know for you, but the mirror is not very quick. If i won the first one, i side out my 4 dragon and the caller, and waiting for an opponent mistake. Like in a controle game, the draw engine is the more important point.
Like in every other matchups Xantid is better with a broken hand and duress is better with a quite well or a slow hand.

Xantids are weaker than Duress against Stax/Shop decks, but only marginally. In fact, both are largely unneccessary, *unless* you get lucky and nab an important Stax piece turn 1 that would otherwise prevent you from comboing off faster.

I desagree again. It depends of your build. If you play non basic land and Xantid versus stax, this is very bad. if you play swamp+duress, this is not the same. You can stop a good turn 1 and show if your opponent have a wasteland for your bazaar or a lot of other stategy clues.
These cards are unneccessary only if you can't play duress in the firsts turns.

To resume, versus control/combo like gift the choice is not easy but versus every other matchup this is very easy tp fond wich card is better:)