Mono R Sligh: Dead in the water?

[Zomar]

Fractured Loyalty is a red answer.

agreed. a combination of fractured loyalty and threatens can handle darksteel collosus.

nothing better than killing them with their own lame kill condition.

[Smmenen]

If your metagame is narrow and you only have a few decks to worry about and if you are set on playing sligh - do this.

Mock up an Oath list you think best represents your anticipated metagame.

Take your sligh list and throw it up against the Oath list.  Record the play by play of every game.  Afte ten games or so - take a look at the games you won and notate which cards saw play the games you won.  Analyze each game and then try to conceptually categorize each game.

For instance, lets say in 10 games, Oath resolved turn one Orchard Oath in 4 games and it won all those games.  Let's say you had two 1cc burn spells and a Fireblast in three games and you won all three of those games.  That would begin to tell you what cards win and then you could eliminate the cards that did not win and just test to see what works and what doesn't.   By process of elimination you will begin to put together the perfect burn deck to foil Oath.  It should'nt be that hard, it just requires work

Asking what works on a forum like this is mostly a waste of time because no one here is going to know anymore than you do.  And theorizing about card choices in a vacuum isn't very helpful.  The only thing people on this forum can help you out with is suggesting cards to test and try. 

Good luck.

[Kieranwolf]

Threaten/Loyalty are good ideas. I guess it was a little early of me to forget about the latter.

I will see about more testing, but my attitude about the archetype will remain the same unless I have a breakthrough.

[DeMarki]

I was using the following decklist for quite a while, even winning 1st at my local tournament scene. However, after a certain point, the pile started doing terribly, especially when Oath decks starting showing up. The metagame around here is different each week, depending on who shows up, but I am wondering what I can do in order to stay competitive with my version of Sleigh.

It's a bit more explosive and risky than traditional Sleigh, but I've found that it wrecks the mirror match because of that on almost every occasion. However, goblins can be a problem sometimes, especially goon.

4 Pyrostatic Pilliar
3 Price of Progress
4 Ankh of Mishra
4 Fireblast
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Mogg Fanatic
1 Wheel of Fortune
2 Fork
1 Black Vise
3 Incinerate
2 Gorilla Shaman
4 Seal of Fire

3 Wooded Foothills
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Mox Ruby
1 Black Lotus
6 Mountain

Side:
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 REB
1 Price of Progress
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Null Rod

I know that fetches are very damaging to me when I have ankh in play, but it's more of a compromise. I need deck-thinning in here in order to top-deck kill spells, and I usually must count on the fact that my opponent is nowhere near as aggro as I usually am. That's one reason why I drop Pilliar before Ankh, against just about every opponent.

As far as why I have so many burn spells: Well, I often find that I can race almost any deck as long as I aim straight for the dome, rather than killing weenies with my spells. The exceptions are decks that use Goblin Lackey, which needs to die immediately if I have no blocker, and otherwise only cards like an early Exalted Angel or CoP: Red have ruined this strategy.

Yes, I do realize that my matchup is pretty hopeless against Stax, but there are plenty of nights when Stax is absent from my metagame. It only started showing up when the proxy limit was set to 10, rather than 5, anyhow.

My explanation of cards:
Fireblast! Yes, it rocks the mirror match and any other aggro, and is awesome forked. It must get saved for last, though, because of the risk inherent in losing all of one's mountains. This deck rarely gets three mana, but can often get two mountains in play, so Fireblast often works quite well. On the other hand, what mirror match? I haven't faced Sleigh at the local tourney in almost a year.

Grim Lavamancer: I detest this card when I'm playing against a player who resolves it. It's great against opposing weenies, and has lots of fuel due to fetches, fanatic, and fireblasts, and even opposing removal. Basically a tad slow, but cheap and can beat if I'm still casting bolts etc.

Mogg Fanatic: It trades with weenies in combat and gets thrown directly at my opponent's dome in response. At best, its effect can deal the final point of damage. At worst, it becomes a one damage spell for R. Still, it's always been a good addition for me.

Seal of Fire: Mostly an anti-aggro card, meant to kill opposing creatures like Goblin Piledriver and Warchief, as well as Lackey. I have also used it to kill my own spirit tokens when facing Oath, and it always comes down all surrepticiously, innocent as an enchantment that only does two damage, but deadly as a finisher.

Fork: Great with Fireblast, and sometimes can do cool things like copy Demonic Tutor and Ancestral Recall. It's mostly good late-game to copy a PoP for the win, if my opponent tries to counter it.

WoF: Well, this is often a finisher when it resolves, especially with Fireblast and Mox/Lotus. Sure, my opponent will have a full hand after my turn, but late-game, most decks begin to run out of FoW, and aren't as likely to draw into them. Against other aggro decks, I will wait till my hand is gone before casting it, unless I only need a little bit of damage to win.

Ensnaring Bridge: Well, its mostly for boarding against Oath and Colossus, but it hasn't worked out that well. One shining moment saw me facing Oath, with no removal in sight for several turns, though, so it's always a consideration.

I have since altered the deck as follows:

-3 Incinerate
-1 Fork
-1 PoP
+2 Shrapnel Blast
+3 Pithing Needle

SB:
-4 E. Bridge
-3 Null Rod
+2 Rack and Ruin
+1 Pithing Needle
+1 Tormod's Crypt
+1 PoP

I decided that I needed some tech against Welder and even CoP, and I hope that Pithing Needle will help out, it being the cheapest method to nuke abilites, if a bit reactive. I added the Shraps because of the added artifact volume, and to replace Incinerate, which just didn't seem economic enough to me.

Also, I finally found R+R, which I am considering adding more of. 3CC is a bit high, but it's still useful.

Ensnaring Bridge never resolved after the last time It became useful, and it was too high CC anyhow.


This makes my games against Oath harder, but I am hoping to race it the same way I race Colossus, with lots and lots of burn.

Anyway, the point of this post is to ask the question: Is Sligh dead? Are there cards that would help it out against the changing metagame? I heard somewhere that Sleigh decks are  using more utility than before, and don't necessarily want to drop their hands either.

I've found no new lists so far ol, so I'm willing to accept that Sleigh is dead and go on, but the deck has been quite rewarding and fun to play in the past, and there is truth to the axiom, "Sometimes Sligh just wins."

Anyone have any suggestions or lists to post, especially with regard to how to kill Oath of Druids and other problem enchantments? Is pithing needle optimal, rather than Null rod?

Help would be greatly appreciated.

In my opinion a competative MonoRed Sligh should definitelly run:

4 Gorilla Shamans/Goblin Vandals
4 Ball Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
3 Price of Progress
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Hammer of Bogardan
4 Cursed Scroll
4 Barbarian Rings
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
4 Fetchlands

These are stamples, if you prefer not to use them in Sligh, then I feel sorry for you.

[Joblin Velder]

Hammer of Bogardan seems... awful. I've never seen sligh get enough mana for the recursion to actually matter.

I'd never run Ball Lightning simply because of Mana Drain. One of my favorite things about sligh is how all your spells SUCK for draining. Also, with a cost of 3, Ball Lightining is all you'd be casting in a turn. I'd rather have mana open to bolt/incinerate/price of progress when my opponent taps out.

[Fubar]

Maindeck Blood Moons appear to be the best thing going for sligh in a "normal" meta.

[Kieranwolf]

Hammer is definitely bad. My original list was all about speed, and Hammer neither improves on that play style nor makes the newer control aspects of the deck better. Scroll as well is usually much, much worse than Lavamancer, despite the fact that it was always run in red Sligh from like, the beginning of time or something. The first decklist's whole MO was outrunning CoP:Red. The new deck just Needles it.

Ball lightning was great and all, as a six-damage one-card spell. I used to run it, too. I also used to run Fling. The bad thing about Lightning, though, is that Black Lotus is restricted.

I will admit that Blood Moon is an awesome card much of the time, but it still costs three mana. Some points:

1. Lots of decks run enough basic lands to play around it.
2. Gifts can still win if it has only mountains, with Flame Vault or just artifact mana.
3. Oath of Druids will usually resolve before Blood Moon, and by then you'll have at least one spirit token if your Oath opponent kept a good hand.

Otherwise, it seems good against Stax and probably CS, but R+R, Null Rods, and lots of burn  are more attractive to me for those matchups.

[DeMarki]

Hammer is definitely bad. My original list was all about speed, and Hammer neither improves on that play style nor makes the newer control aspects of the deck better. Scroll as well is usually much, much worse than Lavamancer, despite the fact that it was always run in red Sligh from like, the beginning of time or something. The first decklist's whole MO was outrunning CoP:Red. The new deck just Needles it.

Ball lightning was great and all, as a six-damage one-card spell. I used to run it, too. I also used to run Fling. The bad thing about Lightning, though, is that Black Lotus is restricted.

Hammer of Bogardan is one Old School Sligh powerhouse because it deals with the fact that if Sligh fails to quickly finish the opponent and has no cards in hand or the Scrolls were somehow destroyed you have the chance to slowly finish your opponent rather than sitting and topdecking lands.
It used to be a solution and a winning condition vs control decks who used to counter every spell. Hammer kicks bluemages asses cause you can use it every single turn in the mid-lategame, without problem.
Anyway 1 Hammer won't mess up your deck, it's just one slot for god's sake and it still does 3 damage for 3 if not reccured, so think about it. Old School BABY!

Regarding Ball Lightning, it's still the fastest damage available. 6 damage for 3 mana is a bargain so what's your problem? You want to play Sligh but you're just so afraid of the so-called metagame that you prefer not to use the greatest cards ever created for this type of deck.

Oh, and I forgot the major finisher of this deck: FIREBLAST. Yes sir, 2 out of 3 games I used this babe as a finisher. Play 2 Fireblasts for free after after you're tapped out on turn 3 to finish your opponent unless he runs Misdirections. GG

[Jank Golem]

I have been testing sligh out some lately and here are my thoughts.
Genju of the Spires is almost always better then ball lightning. It is a great finisher but also reausable. Barbarian ring is but running it prevents you from running fireblast which is a great finisher. I have been testing fork some and have found it very usefull with fireblast, but it makes the deck a little more fragile then I would like.

Goblin Vandal, Mox Monkey and Hearth Kami are all great ways to deal with chalice of the void and other artifacts. I have not found the best number of each to run yet though

Blood moon is okay but I find it to easy for decks to get around and price of progress damage more useful. Oh and hammer is horrible.

[Joblin Velder]

@DeMarki - Ball Lightning can be fast damage in the right match ups. I just think its garbage against control. Instant speed damage is just plain better against those decks. I'd rather have red open to bolt a threat or Price of Progress when they tap out.


Divining Top is a card I've been looking at lately. I've been kicking around an artifact heavy list running those and shrapnel blasts. After some testing this weekend, I'll post a tuned decklist.

[49 Cents]

Blood moon is okay but I find it to easy for decks to get around and price of progress damage more useful. Oh and hammer is horrible.

Blood Moon and PoP work together. Moon changes everything to Mountains but they are still Non-Basic Mountains..

[TheDeadMan]

All this talk about sligh and no one asks me for my opinion As I have been playing sligh on and off for afew yrs and have taken it to top 16 at waterbury I'll share some thoughts and my current decklist.

Divining Top: I have tried this afew times and each time I have found it lacking. It gives you card selection not advantage which is one of the flaws of sligh. To correct this I have been using mask of memory and have been loving it, though it may not be the best or tools given your list is abit creature light.

Hammer of Bogardan: No no and more no, as a burn spell it is very slow and lacking(CC and sorcery). I have found that against control you don't want to come out to fast, or wait for a late game. You need to dictate the pace of the game through usage of ankhs and pillars.

Bloodmoon: I have tried this maindeck on and off, but keep cutting it because it breaks the golden rule of sligh: CC above 2 is terrible. As for a Sb card its your choice again I have used it on and off.

Ball Lightning: This breaks the golden rule so I must caution against it. If you feel the need for a 6/1 thats going to walk into removal I would suggest 1 - 2 genju. 

Fork: I haven't run these main for years its your call their. I sometimes run them Sb depending on the meta I expect

So as I said before I'll post my latest decklist:

1 genju of the spires
3 kris mage
4 goblin vandal
4 grim lavamancer
4 hearth kami

4 magma jet   
3 price of progress
2 lava dart
2 shrapnel blast
1 black vise
1 fireblast

4 ankh of mishra
4 pyrostatic pillar

3 mask of memory

1 mox ruby
1 chrome mox
4 mishra's factory
14 mountains

[Kieranwolf]

So as I said before I'll post my latest decklist:

1 genju of the spires
3 kris mage
4 goblin vandal
4 grim lavamancer
4 hearth kami

4 magma jet   
3 price of progress
2 lava dart
2 shrapnel blast
1 black vise
1 fireblast

4 ankh of mishra
4 pyrostatic pillar

3 mask of memory

1 mox ruby
1 chrome mox
4 mishra's factory
14 mountains

I see that you went with Ankhs and no fetches. That means that you're a better player than me. 

Drawing cards is awesome, but aggro in my meta usually needs Null Rod (for the CS matchup at the least), so I don't think that Mask of Memory would make it into one of my lists. Kris mage is another interesting choice which seems to combo with Mask and Lavamancer, but Its ability seems too expensive for just one damage. Fiery Temper, anyone?

Otherwise, with 16 red sources and four Mishra's Factories, this list seems pretty good...except for its lack of Mogg Fanatics and its single Fireblast (What about the mirror match?  )

Here's my latest:

4 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
3 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Vandal
4 Grim Lavamancer
3 Price of Progress
4 Magma Jet
2 Shrapnel Blast
3 Fireblast

3 Ankh of Mishra
3 Null Rod
1 Black Vise

1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Ruby
1 Chrome Mox
1 Black Lotus
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
6 Mountain

SB:
4 Goblin Bombardment
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Rack and Ruin
3 Fractured Loyalty


I decided to finally add Null Rod to the MB after seeing Trike and Pentavus in action against aggro (Bad, bad robos!). It also puts the hurt on your opponents mana base early-game, along with Vandal and Ankh.

I still favor strip effects for the same reason. Sligh needs a way to keep its opponent from winning until it can get in those final points of damage. Most decks use mana to win, and need lots of it. Sligh, however, never needs more than two mana to win. It may seem as though strip effects are anti-synergistic with PoP, but you really only need PoP to deal 4 damage or so. Like Fireblast, it's a finisher, and still a BOMB against most decks.

I do like Factory and its whole not-being-a-spell deal, though. Perhaps I'll test it, since it's the biggest creature in the deck and all...

[Joblin Velder]

If you must use a poopy mox, us Diamond. Chrome Mox makes you lose 3 damage.

@Deadman - COme down to YMG on Saturdays. MoxMonkey and MastaQ stop by for testing. I'd love to see what you've done with sligh. I miss testing our shitty decks.

[Kieranwolf]

Umm...14 lands, dude. Not enough for Diamond. Besides, Chrome is only there to help resolve Pillar or Ankh first turn. If those drop, soon enough, I won't need that 1/1 creature or burn spell. I consider it worth the risk.

But as always, testing will decide whether it's the proper crapmoxen to run.

[TheDeadMan]

Drawing cards is awesome, but aggro in my meta usually needs Null Rod (for the CS match up at the least), so I don't think that Mask of Memory would make it into one of my lists. Kris mage is another interesting choice which seems to combo with Mask and Lavamancer, but Its ability seems too expensive for just one damage. Fiery Temper, anyone?

Otherwise, with 16 red sources and four Mishra's Factories, this list seems pretty good...except for its lack of Mogg Fanatics and its single Fireblast (What about the mirror match?  Razz )

I have played alot against Rich Shay, one of the best cs people around and we have found that null rod is all well and good until they decide to win. I would suggest running them Sb if anything. As for kris mage I cant say enough how much better this is then mogg fanatic. It keeps welders off the board, it stops aggro in its tracks, and it makes sure you never lose whatever you steal with fractured loyalty. As for the single fireblast thats something I have been testing, and am not all together sure that I want to keep it in the deck.

If you must use a poopy mox, us Diamond. Chrome Mox makes you lose 3 damage.

I used to play diamond but cut it some time ago. After losing 2 games because of have a shrapnel blast in hand and a diamond with no land I switched to chrome and haven't looked back.

[Wikoogle]

How about a pure burn deck ala....

4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Lava Spike
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt

4 Magma Jet
4 Incinerate
4 Chain of Plasma
4 Flame Rift

4 Price of Progress
4 Fireblast

1 Wheel of Fortune

1 Mox Ruby
1 Black Lotus
4 Barbarian Ring
13 Mountain

You get around all of the artifact, enchantment and creature destruction, have a great answer to all the fish and goblins and welders and what not in flamebreak and mogg fanatic. It seems to work at legacy.

Edit: Thanks for the suggestions, I've revised the list.

[pyr0ma5ta]

Um, I'm pretty sure that you want some hate like Null Rods in there somewhere, if you're going to play goforthedome.dec.  Maybe not, but it's worth a try, I think.

Also, try cutting Flamebreak for Firebolt.  4x Price of Progress is a MUST, it's going to do more than 4 damage every single time.  Besides, you have plenty of creature kill should you need it.  Genju of the Spires smashes for 6 after 3 mana investment, and from then on makes any 2 mana into 6 to the face.  Pretty solid.

Barbarian Ring is hot and should be a 4-of.  Also, you forgot the best red card ever printed so far: Wheel of Fortune.

Finally, any reason you're not using Mox Ruby/Black Lotus?

What enchantment removal are you thinking of, exactly?  Disenchant/Seal of Cleansing?

[Kieranwolf]

How about a pure burn deck ala....

4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Lava Spike
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt

4 Magma Jet
4 Incinerate
4 Lightning Helix
4 Flame Rift

4 Flamebreak
4 Fireblast

2 Price of Progress

2 Plateau
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
8 Mountain

You get around all of the artifact, enchantment and creature destruction, have a great answer to all the fish and goblins and welders and what not in flamebreak and mogg fanatic. It seems to work at legacy.

Helix and Flamebreak aren't what I consider all that great for Sligh. The latter, though, should be good in Legacy, because people (at least in my local meta, apparently) use Troll Ascetics and other similar annoyances. I did actually use Lava Spike at one point, but I never liked having a burn spell that I couldn't use to kill a creature with. The same goes for Rift. PoP is usable just because it does so much freakin damage most of the time.

I really don't advocate a splash. Why take so much damage from PoP?

What enchantment removal are you thinking of, exactly?  Disenchant/Seal of Cleansing?

Whatever kills Pyro Pillar/Ankh/Genju etc. isn't useful against that list. Bounce is also pretty much useless. Only counterspells really do much.

[orgcandman]

K, I hate to toot my own horn or anything, but have you seriously considered TMWA?

It has plenty of ways to deal with gifts and control slaver (since those were the main decks it was aiming to beat) and it has incidental hate vs. oath, and uba stax. Its traditional stax matchup is not quite as good, but adding things like abolish, or crash, or mogg salvage can certainly make matchups better depending on the stax build.

Also, you were struggling with adding white to your original list, whereas TMWA incorporates it both in the side and in the main. 4 swords main is no joke when the majority of tinker targets are darksteel colossus, and/or sundering titan. With Pyroblast / ReB backup, you're in a reasonably good position to get the job done.

It has great defense against other aggressive decks due to the amount of burn it packs.

I'm just all in favor of running TMWA vs. traditional mono-red sligh due to flexability.

[pyr0ma5ta]

A possible mod to the Mono-R sligh: add some fetches for a Swamp.  Add Yawgmoth's Will.  Replay a Bolt and a Fireblast from the grave, and win. 

Does Browbeat deserve a slot in gototheface.dec?

[Kieranwolf]

K, I hate to toot my own horn or anything, but have you seriously considered TMWA?

It has plenty of ways to deal with gifts and control slaver (since those were the main decks it was aiming to beat) and it has incidental hate vs. oath, and uba stax. Its traditional stax matchup is not quite as good, but adding things like abolish, or crash, or mogg salvage can certainly make matchups better depending on the stax build.

Also, you were struggling with adding white to your original list, whereas TMWA incorporates it both in the side and in the main. 4 swords main is no joke when the majority of tinker targets are darksteel colossus, and/or sundering titan. With Pyroblast / ReB backup, you're in a reasonably good position to get the job done.

It has great defense against other aggressive decks due to the amount of burn it packs.

I'm just all in favor of running TMWA vs. traditional mono-red sligh due to flexability.

I'm totally not knocking TMWA, but it does not equal red Sligh. I'm not looking to change archetypes, I'm trying to figure out whether Sligh obselete or not. I originally started out under the impression that it was, but many folks have already given me reasons to consider that it may not be.

I don't feel that a white splash would help with the current game plan, although there's no doubting that it's quite useful if one doesn't want to lose to Colossus et al. As folks have already mentioned, though, red does have answers to decks like Stax, Gifts, CS, and Oath. Fractured Loyalty, Goblin Bombardment, Rack and Ruin, Null Rod, Tormod's Crypt and Pithing Needle are all what I would consider superb for hating the more popular archetypes.

REB is a card I have trouble loving, despite it's obvious benefits. I had four in the sideboard for the longest time, but never ended up using them, instead opting to keep burn cards main and possibly side in PoP.

A possible mod to the Mono-R sligh: add some fetches for a Swamp.  Add Yawgmoth's Will.  Replay a Bolt and a Fireblast from the grave, and win. 

Does Browbeat deserve a slot in gototheface.dec?

Yawg Will would be great with lotus, but that's about it. Remember, if Fireblast is in the graveyard, all of your mountains are too, and there's no way for you to cast it without six mana. If Fireblast is countered, you lose the game, so going for a Yawg Win just isn't feasible.

A black splash, IMHO, would have to include mostly hand disruption. Namely, Duress and Cabal Therapy. Otherwise, there's not a whole lot of cards that come to mind that would fit in sligh that don't have double black cc's.

Oh, and I did try Browbeat at one point. It was fun, but it didn't resolve enough to be truly useful. Oh, and just in case this still needs to be said: 3cc is almost always too high. Wheel of Fortune is the only 3cc card that I would run, and it gives you seven cards, not three (almost always winning you the game that turn!).