More Vintage Tech with Randy Buehler: Meandeck GiftsOath

[doylehancock]

what is the correct count for basics in GOAT?  1, 2, or 3?  I am at 2 right now. 

what is the better card to board in needle or sacred ground? (or land hate)

how has your board changed versus randys?

[Methuselahn]

Against Welder + Mana Drain decks sometimes it is just easier and better to power out the Oath, Oath next turn, DREDGE THE DARKBLAST, then kill the Welder.  If they weld in response, big deal, you oath again next turn.  Oh, did they put out another Welder?  That's fine, just pick that Darkblast back up.

The manabase comes down to this, if you Oath right away, all of your fetches are potentially dead and your color access will likely be heavily disrupted because you just dumped a huge chunk of your islands into the graveyard.  It's hard not to run only 3 fetches, but 4 really seems to be the right number.

[cssamerican]

:shock: That sure does fix any problems associated with Goblin Welder. I can't believe it took three pages before someone mentioned Darkblast, apparently people are keeping tech to themselves.

[Dozer]

I can't believe it took three pages before someone mentioned Darkblast

It didn't. First page of this thread:

Darkblast should definitely be in there, but apart from that, I don't see what's missing (and Darkblast wasn't legal anyway at the tournament).

Maybe the reference was hidden to deep in this thread. I think the addition of Darkblast is an obvious one in any case, the only question remains if it should be main or sideboarded. In Gifts, maindeck seems correct if the metagame demands it, in Goat it is probably just a specialty for the Welder matchup. There's a whole thread on Darkblast, too.

Dozer

[Shean]

what is the correct count for basics in GOAT?  1, 2, or 3?  I am at 2 right now. 

what is the better card to board in needle or sacred ground? (or land hate)

how has your board changed versus randys?

I really want the 4th Forbidden Orchard in there somewhere, but I can't seem to find a place to put it.  Honestly, I'd like to cut an Island for the 4th Orchard, but I want to be able to have basic lands to cast Mana Drain.  I don't think you want to cut the Tundra, since you really want to fetch it out against Stax to play your Sacred Ground.  Currently, I'm looking at cutting either Mana Vault or Lotus Petal.  I don't want to cut Mana Vault because it looks so good with Gifts and I don't want to cut a Lotus Petal because it gives you another 0cc mana source for Turn 1 Oath.  Although, would you rather have 4 Forbidden Orchards + 7 0cc artifact mana or 3 Forbidden Orchards + 8 0cc artifact mana.  I'm not sure just yet, but I'm leaning towards cutting the Lotus Petal.  I'd like to hear what other people have to say on this matter.

The Pithing Needle vs. Sacred Ground match up really depends on the rest of your board.  You basically board in Pithing Needle against 3 things: Wasteland, Goblin Welder, & Bazaar (Occasionally).  In my opinion, Sacred Ground is a better answer to Wasteland than Pithing Needle.  On the other hand, Sacred Ground does nothing against Goblin Welder or Bazaar.

In my particular sideboard:

-2 Pithing Needle
+2 Darkblast

I believe that this change gives you the best answers to Wasteland & Goblin Welder.  Darkblast is astonishing in general, but the fact that you are playing with Oath is just icing on the cake.  The dredge ability is actually helpful in situations where you wouldn't expect it.  Example:

I was testing GiftsOath and got Colossus stuck in my hand.  I Brainstormed, but had no Fetchlands in play to shuffle the Colossus away.  Instead, I just put the Colossus on top and Dredged him away with Darkblast.  I followed it up with a Tinker for the win.

[doylehancock]

is darkblast better then needle or lava dart?

whats does everyone thing about a creature in the board?  Like spirt, akroma or exalted

I figure that would be an answer for welder as well

thoughts?

[Dralock]

I disagree that suppression field does "nothing" against bazaar and welder. Its a 3sphere for every land ability besides mana and makes the welder player pay 2 on your turn to weld out big man.

Darkblast, though, helps this out considerably.

I think akroma has a place in the deck though. Sure, you cant tinker for her, but she is the queen bitch for a reason.

*Edit* Edited.

[MoxMonkey]

I think you were talking about Suppresion Field which makes Welders and land abilitys cost 2.  Cause Sacred Ground doesn't do that much.  It does stop Smockstack and Strips so its very good vs Stax and helps vs Fish.

[Methuselahn]

Personally, I don't think you need Sacred Ground.  Not only do you not want to play a long game versus Stax (which sacred ground sets you up for) but the card costs 2 mana, much like Mana Drain and Oath itself.  The Chalice player will likely want to drop Chalice for 2 if Oath hasn't been resolved.  If he does, you are doomed.  I'd think that you'd want an answer like Oxidize, which can not only smite Chalice for 2, but also nuke Tangle Wires at instant speed.  Wires are the real problem because you have so few permanents.  Oxidize is one of the best ways to make your Turbo-Oath plan work.

[xrizzo]

Personally, I don't think you need Sacred Ground.  Not only do you not want to play a long game versus Stax (which sacred ground sets you up for) but the card costs 2 mana, much like Mana Drain and Oath itself.  The Chalice player will likely want to drop Chalice for 2 if Oath hasn't been resolved.  If he does, you are doomed.  I'd think that you'd want an answer like Oxidize, which can not only smite Chalice for 2, but also nuke Tangle Wires at instant speed.  Wires are the real problem because you have so few permanents.  Oxidize is one of the best ways to make your Turbo-Oath plan work.

From the SB posted:

2 Rack and Ruin

[Sean Ryan]

Oxidize is a natural fit in any list running Oath, but what this deck really wants is a Mox Monkey.  Cunning Wish, (I know its slow) is another consideration that can play under Tangle Wire.  This would also allow you to move the Krosan Reclaimation to the SB.

Just a few observations.

Sean

[alban]

Oath up a mox monkey is NOT a clever idea 

[Gabethebabe]

How does Goat do vs Oath?

It appears that Goat has significantly worse game vs Oath than traditional Gifts builds. A major part of your strategy is followed by Oath as well, with the difference that Oath does it a whole lot better. Especially if the Oath is running strips you will not be happy with this matchup.

[Juzam]

Their Oath doesn't work, because we have Orchards too. And we just play Gifts. Against Strips we have to use our anti-Staxx Tech, Needle or Ground.

[Gabethebabe]

Their Oath doesn't work, because we have Orchards too. And we just play Gifts. Against Strips we have to use our anti-Staxx Tech, Needle or Ground.

Not convinced. Sure you can just "play Gifts", but will they resolve? Now that we have cut our draw from the deck (Thirsts or Scroll ==> Ancestral) and replaced it with a relatively unuseful enchantment (in this particular matchup) I don´t see our drawing engine (Gifts) a whole lot better than theirs.
You´re bringing in Sacred Ground and/or Pithing Needle against Oath? Surely you will do better bringing in your red blasts. Pithing Needle or Sacred Ground don´t pull their weight in this matchup. Investing a card in something that has little effect on the game state is not impressive, especially with your draw engine being on-par with theirs.

[doylehancock]

this should beat oath because you can match creature for creature (because of orchard) and you are running one of the best 4 of spells in magic: Gifts

but to make the match up easier I was thinking of Akroma or some other creature in the board. 

thoughts?

[Gabethebabe]

this should beat oath because you can match creature for creature (because of orchard) and you are running one of the best 4 of spells in magic: Gifts

You´re exaggerating Balance, Ancestral, Will, Lotus, Tinker (not in that order) are all better.

I don´t think you should beat Oath the Oath way, because they´re better suited for that. My idea of this matchup is to avoid Oath triggers and outdraw them. Relying on Oath and you creating more tokens doesn´t feel like a real good idea.

[doylehancock]

this should beat oath because you can match creature for creature (because of orchard) and you are running one of the best 4 of spells in magic: Gifts

You´re exaggerating Balance, Ancestral, Will, Lotus, Tinker (not in that order) are all better.

I don´t think you should beat Oath the Oath way, because they´re better suited for that. My idea of this matchup is to avoid Oath triggers and outdraw them. Relying on Oath and you creating more tokens doesn´t feel like a real good idea.

none of those are 4 ofs they are restricted

[xrizzo]

How does Goat do vs Oath?

It appears that Goat has significantly worse game vs Oath than traditional Gifts builds. A major part of your strategy is followed by Oath as well, with the difference that Oath does it a whole lot better. Especially if the Oath is running strips you will not be happy with this matchup.

The answer is that it doesn't fare particularly well.  5 strips v 0 strips makes thoughts like these unfounded:

this should beat oath because you can match creature for creature (because of orchard)

I think that 'regular' oath is not sufficiently played however, and the concern over that matchup may not matter as much as it did say a year ago...

[cssamerican]

After doing some testing of my own, I am convinced that adding Oath is not necessarily an improvement to the deck. Does it give you some stupid easy wins? Yes, but it also comes with its own set of problems.

You become dependent on Oath of Druids for wins. This dependency is caused by two factors. The first is that by playing a deck based around Gifts Ungiven you need a lot of mana available. This is a problem when you run so few basic Islands, and it is compounded by the deck’s desire to frequently play Duress turn one. Because of this it is quite easy for a deck to keep you off a large portion of your mana, and in turn slowing any strategy based on Gifts Ungiven down to a crawl.

The second factor is you don’t have the ability to see Gifts Ungiven as easily as you did when the deck was sporting four copies of Merchant Scroll. You don’t have the ability to jump in front of the card advantage war like you did with Merchant Scroll->Ancestral Recall. And you lose some ability to search for removal for cards like Chalice of the Void. All these factors make the combo route much more difficult to achieve in MDGoat than it is in MDGifts.

If you don’t plan on playing Oath of Druids in the early stages of the game then there is no compelling reason to run it all. So, this leads me to the first problem with being dependent on Oath of Druids, if you don’t resolve an Oath of Druids in very early stages of the game and use it, then the deck is weaker than MDGifts in virtually every way. You have a weaker mana base, and additional cards that require you to expose that mana base in order to use them.

Gabethebabe has already mentioned another problem I have with this dependency. If your opponent is using Forbidden Orchard (Oath and 5-Color Dragon) it is quite possible your Oaths become dead weight because you have no way to remove opposing Orchards. The other thing to consider when facing Oath decks is that they will be able to Oath after you because Colossus will be forced to kill their spirit tokens. This could be a real problem versus Salvager versions simply because they might be able to win immediately after Oathing. This could also pose a problem versus the more traditional version if there are multiple Oaths in play with multiple tokens. In which case you will lose the life battle from creatures unless you can pull out a combo win on your next turn.

Another issue when facing Oath is Platinum Angel. You need to bring in bounce game two if your opponent is a creative player or this simple tech will pawn you.

The last problem I found was actually quite funny when it happened to me. I was playing game 2 versus Uba Mask and he opened up with a Wasteland, a couple of moxen, and a Chalice for 0. At which time I Forced the Chalice and he then passed the turn. I then played an Orchard, mox, Oath. He then activated wasteland blowing my Orchard up and then he played a BoB activated it and passed the turn. I Oathed DSC dropped an Island and passed. He then played a Null Rod, which resolved. I play a Polluted Delta then I attacked with the Colossus. He blocked with the token and took 10 damage. During his upkeep he Oaths a Duplicant!!! When I glance back down at the table and see the Null Rod I scoop. I laugh and say, “What are the odds the Oath hits Duplicant.� He then fans his deck out face up and says, “Pretty good when they’re the only creatures in the deck.� Unknowing to me he boarded out all of creatures except his Duplicants, which he bumped up to four. I got totally pawned.

The moral of the story is simple, giving people the opportunity to Oath can blow up in your face in a big way. And in this deck it comes up a lot because you can’t make them keep the tokens because DSC as no evasion. I still think the deck is really good, but it definitely opens up a whole new set of problems you have to deal with. I am just not sure if the added problems outweigh the problems adding Oath fixed, at least for me anyways.

[doylehancock]

I like your points and I have been testing trying to figure out if the mana base is worth it.

I love basics this is why I love MDGifts so much its basically a mono blue deck.

This list can help us think if cards in MDGifts can be cut.  For example what if we moved gifts more towards this and brassmans.  here is what I mean.  We drop the misdirections for duress.  We can then add darkblast to the board.  Put some more seas in the deck.

it sounds like a good idea but I dont know

[Liam-K]

Adding Akroma is bad tech because she only helps if you find DSC first AND your opponent has somehow lost 3 life AND your opponent could have dealt with DSC on the third turn but not the second.  That's just not common enough to justify a dead card.

Token-killing shouldn't be a big deal most of the time as you can just tap orchard after you attack and before you pass the turn.  Wasteland can ruin your day if they oath into something relevant but wasteland already ruins your day, so this isn't saying much.  At least you have the krosan to fall back on if this happens.

For the record, this change sets off alarm bells for me.  The logic pans out but I have a bad feeling about it.

[Shock Wave]

This deck is an absolutely terrible choice for a metagame filled with Wasteland, Chalice, and Null Rod. In the Greater Toronto Area, there are a slew of fish decks (the same decks that owned Rochester) that are just begging to see this matchup. If you lose the die roll, early plays such as CotV = 0 and Null Rod are absolutely devastating, especially if coupled with a Wasteland. Other problematic cards such as Meddling Mage can really ruin your day. I'm sure this deck had a strong surprise factor, but now that it has been exposed, it seems almost strictly inferior to more streamlined Gifts strategies with better manabases, answers, and opening draws.

[yespuhyren]

I agree with Rich, as I am in the same area as where he plays, and if you bring this here, you won't win very often.  Its great in some metagames, but I'd much rather play meandeck gifts

[exit music]

I actually disagree with you on this point, Rich.

By effectively exchanging Merchant Scroll for Oath of Druids, this Gifts hybrid does a very good job of improving matches like Fish. I don't even think Null Rod is an issue at all against this build because it no longer requires Artifact mana to go off - all it needs is an Oath of Druids. I tested against a Fish deck that contained Rootwater Thief, Meddling Mage, Chalice of the Void and Swords to Plowshares and easily took the games about 3/4 of the time. Oath of Druids gives you access to 5 cards that put Darksteel Colossus into play - no matter how strong the hate, putting DSC into play so reliably gives aggro decks fits.

[austinnadz]

This deck is an absolutely terrible choice for a metagame filled with Wasteland, Chalice, and Null Rod. In the Greater Toronto Area, there are a slew of fish decks (the same decks that owned Rochester) that are just begging to see this matchup. If you lose the die roll, early plays such as CotV = 0 and Null Rod are absolutely devastating, especially if coupled with a Wasteland. Other problematic cards such as Meddling Mage can really ruin your day.

I believe that is why knowing how to properly sideboard makes the deck useable against multiple archetypes. For wastes, you've got sacred ground, (edited due to brainfart). And don't forget, a lot of times when an opponent CoV's, it slows them down a little as well, because they do probably have 2 cc spells, 1cc spells, etc. Sure it might be part of their game plan, but it does slow them down and give you room to play.

I actually disagree with you on this point, Rich.

I don't even think Null Rod is an issue at all against this build because it no longer requires Artifact Mana to go off - all it needs is an Oath of Druids.

I think exit is right here. You can play under null rod. Sure it's gonna hinder you, but what game doesn't have a few curve balls thrown in your face? You roll with the punches and play through them. This is also why familiarity with the metagame is also clutch. One certainly has to know what to look out for and when to hold their cards and show them. When to explode all over their face and when not to.

[Juggernaut GO]

this deck just screams " I auto lose to any stax deck".  Yay to Randy for winning with it, but from the other reports I read about his tourney plays, all his opponents just sucked.  I put together a deck very close to this with akroma and it was a little more reliable  then if your opponent happens to cast swords to plowshares to kill your 1 win condition in the deck.  you can't burning wish for colossus.

Sacred ground is an irellevent card, for every time you resolve it, your stax playing opponent will have already boarded in multiple ray of revelation/seal of cleansing on you.

[Shock Wave]

I actually disagree with you on this point, Rich.

By effectively exchanging Merchant Scroll for Oath of Druids, this Gifts Hybrid does a very good job of Improving matches, such as Fish. I don't even think Null Rod is an issue at all against this build because it no longer requires Artifact Mana to go off - all it needs is an Oath of Druids. I tested against a Fish deck that contained Rootwater Thief, Meddling Mage, Chalice of the Void and Swords to Plowshares and easily took the games about 3/4 of the time. Oath of Druids gives you access to 5 cards that put Darksteel Colossus into play - no matter how strong the hate, putting DSC into play so reliably gives aggro decks fits.

Well, why not ask the GiftsOath players who faced off vs. OFM at BigB last weekend how they faired? I'll tell you this: the matches I watched played out *exactly* how they did in my testing. A Wasteland or Null Rod stunted the early game until some other form of disruption became available for the Fish player (either another Wasteland, a Mage, or a FoW to stop the next critical spell).

You're insinuating that because Merchant Scroll is replaced by Oath that the matchup is now immediately favourable which is absolutely incorrect. First of all, this particular Oath plan is actually very weak against Fish because it is essentially an all-in gamble in the early game. If the DSC is removed, your only out is a very fragile combo plan which must be executed almost immediately before your mana is cut off. One of the strengths of a standard gifts deck is that it is inherently more resilient vs. OFM because of the combined factors of a *stable* manabase and *answers* to the fish gameplan. A resolved Null Rod does not force you to adopt a completely different strategy, whereas with GiftsOath, you now MUST win with the Oath plan, which is rather vulnerable. Your contention that recklessly putting DSC into play vs. a deck that packs 3-4 STP is not accurate, especially considering that your "out" after losing DSC is effectively neutralized by OFM's mana denial.

I've also tested this matchup extensively, as I was also considering playing this deck at BigB. I am very thankful that I did not, seeing as how my testing results seem to coincide very precisely with how GiftsOath performed vs. OFM at the event.

[yespuhyren]

Not to forget, that if you look up the OFM 2k5 list, you will see that there is the option for up to 4 STP post sideboard, and there is 2 MD.  this, coupled with wastes, strips, mages, and forces, IS enough to beat the deck. 

[dicemanx]

This deck tries to do two distinct things, but it doesn't do either one very well. The Oath kill is very flimsy and requires some serious counter back up in case your lone Colossus is taken out or your Reclamation plan is stopped. The regular Gifts plan is also weakened on account of the shoddy mana base and the fact that it doesn't have any good draw spells outside of Ancestral. This deck frankly looks like a mess that tries to do too much. I do not see how this can be superior to the regular Gifts deck running 4-5 basics and TfKs.