New set coming in Summer 2006

[jpmeyer]

I dunno...if they re-print force of will in one of the theme decks that deck will probably be the only one that sells and it will sell sooooo much so fast that at some point I could see the market just dropping out on them...which would be bad (I see the same thing happening with ravnica right now...soo popular that the rares are starting to show up more like uncommons right now...at some point there will be so damn many of the rares from rav that they cannot possibly hold up their value over time....just the trend im starting to see happen, its part of the reason that birds of paradise have crashed so bad lately (at least around here anyways)

Id just hate to see them ruin something sacred like force of will....id much rather they re-release force as a special promo at some point instead like gemstone mine or balance or whatever....but hey thats just me.

All I have to say is: get over it. Lower card prices are incredibly good for players. I would MUCH rather have $10 Birds than $20 Pithing Needle. $20 for a Standard-legal rare is horrendous, and that price is so high just because no one wants to open the godawful Saviors packs.

There's nothing "sacred" about Force of Will or any other card.

I don't see how much the price on Force of Will could drop from this.  I figure it would be just like Umezawa's Jitte and the Rat's Nest precon.

[Bardo]

Id just hate to see them ruin something sacred like force of will....id much rather they re-release force as a special promo at some point instead like gemstone mine or balance or whatever....but hey thats just me.

We've had this discussion before, but I see no reason not to rehash it here: promotional releases of playable, high-demand cards aren't printed in sufficient quantities to satisfy players who need those cards. They just serve to pimpify the collection of folks that already have them. And there's no guarantee that those players will shed their non-pimp staples to the hungry proles.

There's nothing "sacred" about Force of Will or any other card.

Well, there's Phelddagrif, you know?

[Dozer]

Q. Will there be theme decks?
A. Yes. We're going to publish boosters, theme decks, and a Fat Pack for this release. Since this is the third set of the Ice Age block, of course, the theme decks will include a few cards from the first two sets of the block. For those cards we will be updating them to the new card frames (since Coldsnap uses the new card frames), but we will be keeping their original art.

Even if they put FoW into one of the theme decks, it will have the new card frame. Frankly, I am blasted away by the entire announcement. It is much more than I'd ever thought they would do -- introduce a non-block set into Standard, actually calling it "Coldsnap" (which still doesn't fit with "Ice Age" and "Alliances"), using the new card frame on an old set... I am not sure if I like it. I mean, I know I like it, because Ice Age was fun to play with and bringing the third set to Ice Age block is awesome. But how it actually turns out will remain to be seen. If they manage to convey the Ice Age flavor with the new card frame, it will be good. But it *could* turn out to be a horrible failure! We'll see and wait for the first few images to appear.

I am wondering why the usual rumor sources didn't pick this up, and I also wonder (fear?) what else might be in WotC's archives and filing cabinets, gathering dust...

Dozer

[Bardo]

I am wondering why the usual rumor sources didn't pick this up

I think WotC has really been clamping down their leaks since Mirrodin.

Even if they put FoW into one of the theme decks, it will have the new card frame.

Eh, it will work just as well.

To me, this is the real question: will they reissue Force? I hope so, but I have no idea.

[BigMac]

I am wondering if there will be official ice age block tournaments/Pro tour/Gp. As it will replace homelands in the Ice age block and it will be legal in Ice Age block. Would be fun as that is a set i actually know pretty well. Would be really nice to play with 4 necropotence again for a change. It would be nice to have a format in what red/black actually is viable enough to play. Would be so nice to see cards that have disappeared of the face of the earth because they are so bad nowadays, but then they were great.

hmmmm, memories, daydreams, hmmmm.

[Necrologia]

An Ice Age Block Tourney would be beyond amazing. Black Weenie with 4x Necro was my favorite pre-Donate deck ever. I'd love to see Counter-Post, B/r Necro, and R/G Beats duking it out again. The only question is what Cold Snap would bring to the table. Even the loss of Serrated Arrows is relevant, as it was one of the best answers available to the pump knights running around.

Then again, I wonder if I even have 4 Necros laying around anymore.

[Jacob Orlove]

actually calling it "Coldsnap" (which still doesn't fit with "Ice Age" and "Alliances")

Actually, it fits just fine. Ice Age was, well, an Ice Age. Alliances was when the world started to thaw out. So what happens when it gets cold again, but only for a brief period before fully warming up? A Coldsnap.

[Royal Ass.]

I was mostly interested in the nostalgic apsect of seeing the old cardface, template, and art.   It looks like that isnt going to happen, at least with the cardface and template that is.  As for the art, since the set wasnt complete that probably means that a lot of the art was unfinished or never even commishened or if it was finnshed, due to legal reasons they can't use it over 10 years later (this is just speculation). 

I don't really care so much about the card abilities of the set because I dont feel that good card design is neccesarily inherant to the date the set was designed, plus any uber powerful cards would get axed out (probably for the better).

I feel like it could have been really cool if they would have made the old set look and feel old, and by this is mean, old style art, cardface, flavor text, symbols and YES- no foils (im anti foil by the way).

Oh well, it will be interesting to see how it turns out anyway...

[Moxlotus]

Q. Will there be theme decks?
A. Yes. We're going to publish boosters, theme decks, and a Fat Pack for this release. Since this is the third set of the Ice Age block, of course, the theme decks will include a few cards from the first two sets of the block. For those cards we will be updating them to the new card frames (since Coldsnap uses the new card frames), but we will be keeping their original art.

I hope they don't reprint force in one of these theme decks.  I will probably cry if I see a Force in updated templates...unless it is foil, but they don't put foils in theme decks.

[Joblin Velder]

Oh man, oh man.

Russian Force of Wills.

[PacmanXSA]

The fact that this set is going to be standard legal took away all of my hopes and desires that I culminated within the last few days...  I seriously thought that this was their big chance to cater to Legacy/Vintage without affecting Standard, etc...

Whether they reprint FoW is totally irrelevant seeing as it will be the big card in the set and will not really hamper the originals value; theoretically

Still upset though....

Pac

[Fubar]

They will never, ever print FOW or anything in the reserved list.  But they might continue with pitch or acc cards.
There will most certainly be foils.
It will be legal in standard & all,  their 3set 1block years have gotten stale (even if they do work) so it's time for a shakeup, which is a positive thing.
if it's comming in summer*06, then extensive work has already been done on it.

[jpmeyer]

They will never, ever print FOW or anything in the reserved list.  But they might continue with pitch or acc cards.
There will most certainly be foils.
It will be legal in standard & all,  their 3set 1block years have gotten stale (even if they do work) so it's time for a shakeup, which is a positive thing.
if it's comming in summer*06, then extensive work has already been done on it.

I'm not sure if you were implying this or not, but just to be clear: Force of Will isn't on the reserved list.

[dandan]

Basically someone making the Precon decks can decide if they are going to sell or not. Reprint FoW!!

Note that regarding reprints, proxies etc, Wizards DO follow their own rules i.e. Reserved List but have shown (with Coldsnap and previous Reserved List changes) that they are more than willing to change their rules for what gets printed. I would be rather surprised to see Mana Drain pop up in this set, however.

[rvs]

Basically someone making the Precon decks can decide if they are going to sell or not. Reprint FoW!!

Note that regarding reprints, proxies etc, Wizards DO follow their own rules i.e. Reserved List but have shown (with Coldsnap and previous Reserved List changes) that they are more than willing to change their rules for what gets printed. I would be rather surprised to see Mana Drain pop up in this set, however.

It won't, since it would show up in Standard and Extended as well, in that case.

[dandan]

FoW is only good in decks with Blue spells and heavy Blue isn't that hot in Standard (I guess you could FoW, pitching a Gifts). As far as Extended goes, would FoW be a problem?

In any case, although the Coldsnap cards would be legal in all formats, the other cards in the Precon packs wouldn't, so they can do what they like as far as choosing cards from IA/AL that aren't on the Reserved List.

[orgcandman]

#1 - I hope that they reprint force, and stp, at the very least.
#2 - I hope to see at least 1 or 2 staple cards from earlier sets (IE: factories/ritual/etc.) reprinted in this set.
#3 - RE: Reserve List:
  I don't think it will neccessarily apply in the same manner. This set was supposedly designed to go in the Ice Age block (IE: IA, AL, CS[?]) and therefore would have been designed around the same time as the other 2 sets, before the reserve list was really conceptualized. I can see this as a way of wizards putting in cards from the reserve list without breaking their obligation to collectors, as this is definately a corner case.

[ctthespian]

Basically someone making the Precon decks can decide if they are going to sell or not. Reprint FoW!!

Note that regarding reprints, proxies etc, Wizards DO follow their own rules i.e. Reserved List but have shown (with Coldsnap and previous Reserved List changes) that they are more than willing to change their rules for what gets printed. I would be rather surprised to see Mana Drain pop up in this set, however.

It won't, since it would show up in Standard and Extended as well, in that case.

Q. Will the Ice Age and Alliances cards in the Theme decks be Standard/Extended/whatever legal?
A. No. Only cards that appear in Coldsnap itself become part of Standard. The Ice Age and Alliances cards that appear in the theme decks are still considered part of those original sets.

Besides WOTC knows if they put FOWs into theme decks they will sell for like $20 and no where near the suggested retail.  Look what happened to the precons with Jittes.

[Bardo]

Besides WOTC knows if they put FOWs into theme decks they will sell for like $20 and no where near the suggested retail.  Look what happened to the precons with Jittes.

That's mostly on eBay and (maybe) speciality shops. All large distributors (WalMart, Target, bookstores), still sell Rat's Nest for MSRP. I know since the Target by me has a half-dozen Rat's Nest still on the shelves for $11 or so.

And the 'big box' retailers are among the largets sellers of MtG cards, I think. Actually, I have no idea how the primary market really works...

[Lunar]

This is jumping back to my earlier post and the two comments after, so if you dont care about that part just skip this post eh....

While $10 Force of Wills is neat for the player who is not willing to take a little time/effort or a little money for an $18-$25 dollar card, its bad for people who have a good chunk of these cards and all of a sudden their pile of 20 forces just got cut by half its price....I realize that a lot of you guys ONLY want this stuff for playability but you cannot cut out the other half of the formula...Collectors and Dealers and stuff rely on their card prices staying somewhat stable or going up...while im not really trying to compare what reprinting things like force of will in mass production would do to the great depression, many of the factors that led of the the stock market crashing and stuff was due to over production and the value of said products being cut out from beneath you.  Confidence in the system then falters and you start to have some major problems...While it might be a great boost to wizards in the short term (cause you would have pre-con packs selling by the fistfull until the market was spent..this creates a gigantic quick profit followed by a bunch of dead crap...heh...it will be similar to the saviors theme decks...all the rats ones sell as soon as somebody finds them...then every other deck sits there on the shelf since nobody wants one that wont get them their money back...

maybe im flawed in my thinking here...but since ive been getting more and more into the business side of magic (ie selling on the secondary market online store trading etc etc...and maybe soon to be a physical store in california) I realize that these player friendly ideas are not always very business friendly...wizards cannot afford to cut out the middlemen that get their product to the players...id hate to be a store that relied only on selling boosters and theme decks, singles is where a lot of the money is for a lot of stores and if forces or other highly sought after cards get reprinted in massive quantities there could be problems in the long run (ie it would be awful if the power was reprinted or anything on that kind of money level...forces arent as bad unless you take into account that some people have a TON of forces and the overall dollar drop is painful...)



What I would prefer to see is some NEW great cards of similar power level as some of the other older stuff (remember we already have stupid stuff like demonic consultation, necropotence, force of will etc in this "block") IF wizards does that then they should be able to have a good sales run with the new set without having to resort to cheap money making tricks like re doing force of will in quantity....

Maybe im selfish about this....I really do want to grow the T1 format (could really care less about the other formats to tell you the truth, I just dont like the players outside of T1 as far as tournaments are concerned) But I dont think that reprinting a ton of good cards is the way to go about doing it....

Okay ill end my rant now...disagree with me all you want...but id rather see TOs allowing more proxies before I want to see cards like force get reprinted.

[asmoranomardicodais]

I know you feel that collectors have the right to a stable market, but this is a game, and people should have the ability to be on par with anyone else playing the game. If you let cards continue to get more and more expensive, then it becomes a game of the rich versus the poor. I have our force of wills, and I wouldn't mind there price getting cut in half, because that would mean I could afford eight of them. I think that the game dimension of magic should be the part that is nurtured, not the collector side of game.

On a more practical note, reprinting these force of wills with the new card template shouldn't effect the price of the old ones that badly. When the new serra angels were released, the old ones actually went up in value due to the new demand. The same happened with savannah lions. Having more force of wills in the market would be a good thing for everyone, becaus eit would allow more people to play in legacy and vintage, and the price drop of the originals would probably be negligable, since collectors would still prefer the "Classic" Force of Wills. I really don't see what the fuss is all about.

One last thing: DEATH TO THE RESERVED LIST!!! REPRINT PHELDAGRIFF!!!

[Bardo]

its bad for people who have a good chunk of these cards and all of a sudden their pile of 20 forces just got cut by half its price...

That's really unlikely. If the availability of Forces gets more people interested in FoW-legal formats, the original Alliances circulation may actually increase in value, since more people placing demand on a scarce resource will raise their value.

But I couldn't give two tugs of dead dog's dick about any of that. Forces are $20 cards, not PSA 9 Beta Loti. And fuck the market. These are essential cards for people to play Legacy and Vintage and they should be spread far and wide across the land.

People should collect stamps, coins, or corporate stock if they really want to preserve their investment. But MtG is first and foremost a card game.

What I would prefer to see is some NEW great cards of similar power level as some of the other older stuff

Due to the limits of MtG design, it's hard to top Force of Will at what it does.

But I dont think that reprinting a ton of good cards is the way to go about doing it....

1 =/= ton.

Okay ill end my rant now...disagree with me all you want...but id rather see TOs allowing more proxies before I want to see cards like force get reprinted.

We're just talking about Force of Will; not Mox Sapphire. Jeez.

Like Matt said earlier, there's nothing sacred about any card. It's not like St. Augustine used to play MtG.

REPRINT PHELDAGRIFF!!!

Word brotha'. Luckily you can still pick them up for $1. And it's P-H-E-L-D-D-A-G-R-I-F. The double-D, throws everyone one of. Me, I'm more of B-cup man myself.

[Jacob Orlove]

Fun Fact: cards drop in value ALL THE TIME. How much did Ravager and Clamp sell for pre-ban? And post-ban? If collectors and dealers don't expect some cards to lose value over time, occasionally in unpredictable ways, they're in the wrong business.

[Moxlotus]

I doubt they would print enough pre-con decks to have much of an effect on the number of FoW in existance.  Besides, I think the originals would keep their value because of the old templating. 

[Lunar]

@ asmormandicsusjehslacxinasd

your whole post is based on it being a card game whereas you are missing a key word in why Magic has been so succesful...its a COLLECTABLE card game...sorry man...but collectors and non tournament players probably make up for waaay over half the players in the game (I know at least the non tournament players side does) Unfortunatly what you think and what should actually happen are probably not the same thing.  Players (and I am still a player, even with some more business like aspects coming into it) tend to only want whats best for them, not what is necisarily best for everybody else or the game itself....

people should have the ability to be on par with anyone else playing the game

first off this isnt the case and has never been the case...as much as some people would like it to be, it simply is not the case (I dont have full power for myself but I dont complain about not being able to play a real deck at a gencon like event...it just motivates me to get those cards through work and trading and stuff) Magic is a capitalist like game, not a socialist like game, sorry. There wouldnt be any money in it for anybody if everybody could just have every card for next to nothing.

@ Bardo...

if wizards is doing a big print run of these new ones why would the demand actually raise on the old ones? Players who cannot afford an $18-20 force now arent going to do it in the future either, they will just get the cheapest version...since everybody will just stop trying their hardest to get the old ones they will go down since demand for them will drop...

you also are falling victem to the ideal that this is only a card game...you also are forgetting the COLLECTABLE part in front of the card game part. Collectability is a major part of magic's success.

But I couldn't give two tugs of dead dog's dick about any of that. Forces are $20 cards, not PSA 9 Beta Loti. And fuck the market. These are essential cards for people to play Legacy and Vintage and they should be spread far and wide across the land.

While I can skip any comments about you and your dog, your comment on them only being a $20 is both valid and not at the same time...while $20 isnt much for a single card (considering Jitte and Needle are both near this) but when you consider that there are shops and collectors that have large amounts of forces this money really adds up...8-10 dollar hits over the span of a stack of them is every bit as damaging as the loss on one mox might be if they were reprinted...

The second part of your comment may be valid about vintage needing force of will (although Stax is pretty good last time I checked and it doesnt run force) but isnt Goblins the best deck in legacy right now (forgive me if im wrong, i dont really play legacy) and while force of will is good, it really shouldnt be in a Ru goblin deck of any kind...

@ Jacob

while cards drop ALL THE TIME like ravager did when it was banned...these are not really things that just happen all the time. It doesnt happen often and im sure a lot of people that owned a stack of ravagers were a little upset (although it was a great time for me since I was picking them up from disgusted players at $2.00 each for a while) When card prices drop from a set rotating these are things that everybody has known would be happening for a while...if went and invested in a bunch of tooth and nails 2 weeks before they rotated and then were confused when they dropped a few bucks recently then shame on you and you deserved it...the problem here with coldsnap is that we wont know for certain if force will be re-printed until almost the time of its release.

Insert Quote
I doubt they would print enough pre-con decks to have much of an effect on the number of FoW in existance.  Besides, I think the originals would keep their value because of the old templating.

the problem here is that most players dont care...in fact a lot of players actually prefer only the newest stuff (I get it all the time with people ONLY wanting 9th pain lands and only rav birds etc etc etc) Assuming that everybody will still want the old style card is a mistake IMO...it just doesnt always work like that.

[BigMac]

People should collect stamps, coins, or corporate stock if they really want to preserve their investment. But MtG is first and foremost a card game.

I resent this comment as MTG is a collectible card game. As soon as people say it is collectible a certain value is put on certain cards. I am not saying this because i am concerned about the worth of my cards, as i am not. It has everything to do with being able to get an insurance. As long as those prices are fluctuating you will never be able to get a decent insurance for a normal rate. it will always be way more expensive.

And for the record, i am more a player that collects than a collector that plays. You just sound like somebody that resents the fact that it is not easy to pick up certain cards. That it actually takes a lot of effort to get certain cards. This however is exactly the meaning of a collectible cardgame. It is for a reason they put the word collectible on the boosters and starters. Instead of sounding bitter you could be supportive of the people that actually put in a lot of time and effort to get the cards they want. Not everybody is bitter about the fact they have to put in a lot of work and money to get certain cards. If you resent this you should be better of playing drafts and type 2, as those are formats with available cards with no extra effort to getting them. (still costs money though)

[rvs]

Basically someone making the Precon decks can decide if they are going to sell or not. Reprint FoW!!

Note that regarding reprints, proxies etc, Wizards DO follow their own rules i.e. Reserved List but have shown (with Coldsnap and previous Reserved List changes) that they are more than willing to change their rules for what gets printed. I would be rather surprised to see Mana Drain pop up in this set, however.

It won't, since it would show up in Standard and Extended as well, in that case.

Q. Will the Ice Age and Alliances cards in the Theme decks be Standard/Extended/whatever legal?
A. No. Only cards that appear in Coldsnap itself become part of Standard. The Ice Age and Alliances cards that appear in the theme decks are still considered part of those original sets.

Besides WOTC knows if they put FOWs into theme decks they will sell for like $20 and no where near the suggested retail.  Look what happened to the precons with Jittes.

Uh Keith, if that is a direct response to my post, then you totally misunderstood. I was commenting on Dandan's observation about mana drain, not about fow or the precons.

[Moxlotus]

I resent this comment as MTG is a collectible card game. As soon as people say it is collectible a certain value is put on certain cards. I am not saying this because i am concerned about the worth of my cards, as i am not. It has everything to do with being able to get an insurance. As long as those prices are fluctuating you will never be able to get a decent insurance for a normal rate. it will always be way more expensive.
 

Just because a card is collectible, doesn't mean it is valuable.  How valuable is Mudhole?

Cards fluctuate in value all the time.  Why should FoW be stable?

[jpmeyer]

I'm pretty sure that the price of Mana Drain has gone down over the last six months, too.

[orgcandman]

While $10 Force of Wills is neat for the player who is not willing to take a little time/effort or a little money for an $18-$25 dollar card, its bad for people who have a good chunk of these cards and all of a sudden their pile of 20 forces just got cut by half its price....

Actually, since they're not reprinting Alliances, but just a few cards, I'd doubt that they would cut the price of forces in half. As can be seen with Umezawa's Jitte, they'll still be $20 cards. They'll just be $20 that you can find for $10 at Wal*Mart

On this subject, I have no problem with them reprinting most of the staples of vintage. The only ones I'd be afraid of seeing reprinted from a value standpoint are power. Even drains probably wouldn't be terribly affected.