Skittles

[Nomad]

I was hoping to see some discussion of the new split cards from Dissension, since I've hardly had time to look at them thus far myself.

Any of them look good?

[Anusien]

Rise & Fall (how do you autocard the splits?) was fairly nutty for me in limited.  Here I guess you'd use it to abuse your 187 and get something back from the bin.  Only the allied color ones are legal.

Supply (of Supply//Demand) seems good since it's a GW burn spell, but the other half is fairly uninspiring.
Hit (of Hit//Run) suffers from just going to hit a Fellwar's Stone or something dinky later on.  Run is meh.
Pure//Simple seems iffy
Trial//Error seems really weak.

The problem is that these key on multicolored spells, and there are only a few of those per deck.  It's not like the effect is worthwhile enough to include.  Hrm, UB to counter a multi-colored spell, or 1U to counter any spell?

[Philatio]

Rise & Fall (how do you autocard the splits?) was fairly nutty for me in limited.  Here I guess you'd use it to abuse your 187 and get something back from the bin.  Only the allied color ones are legal.

Supply (of Supply//Demand) seems good since it's a GW burn spell, but the other half is fairly uninspiring.
Hit (of Hit//Run) suffers from just going to hit a Fellwar's Stone or something dinky later on.  Run is meh.
Pure//Simple seems iffy
Trial//Error seems really weak.

The problem is that these key on multicolored spells, and there are only a few of those per deck.  It's not like the effect is worthwhile enough to include.  Hrm, UB to counter a multi-colored spell, or 1U to counter any spell?

IMO, Rise/Fall is pretty damn solid.  I have wanted to run Hymn in skittles for a while but double black is pretty tough until it is so late hand size probably doesn't matter.  And the rise part I think can generate some good tempo.

I also think supply/demand is really really good.  It's a good control finisher and also a tutor for good stuff.  There are too few tutors in this format, and I think this one makes the cut.  Plus this has the same colors as one of the crappiest dragon charms.  If you run all the charms, I'd likely play this card instead.

Yeah, the others, not so good, usually because one side is either overcosted or too conditional.

In terms of other cards that Dissension brings us, I see the Azuorious Guiildmage as being strong, and I also like the 4G 4/4 that has the CIP naturalize, as well as Coiling Oracle.  Ghost Quarter might also be playable if you adore wasteland, or play against a lot of manlands or karoos in your meta.  Oh, and I like Trygon Predator; an evasive beater and removal in one is always nifty.

Here they all are though (the uncommon ones, as it has been mentioned, the other 5 are rares):

Hit // Run
1RB //3GR

Instant // Instant

Target player sacrifices an artifact or a creature. Hit deals damage to that player equal to the sacrificed permanent's converted mana cost.
 //
 Each attacking creature you control gets +1/+0 until end of turn for each other attacking creature you control.

Pure // Simple
 1RG//1RW

Sorcery // Sorcery

Destroy target multi-colored permanent
 //
 Destroy all equipments and auras.

Rise // Fall
 //

Sorcery

Return target creature to its owner's hand. Return target creature card from your graveyard to your hand
UB //RB
 Target opponent reveals two cards at random from his or her hand, then discards all nonland cards revealed this way.

Supply // Demand
 XGW//1UW

Sorcery

Put X 1/1 green Saproling creature tokens into play.
 //
 Search your library for a multicolored card, reveal it, and put it into your hand. Then shuffle your library.

Trial // Error
 UW//UB

Instant

Return all creatures blocking or blocked by target creature to their owner's hand.
 //
 Counter target multicolored spell.

[Jacob Orlove]

Here are the cards that are definitely going into my list:
Azorius Guildmage (this looks amazing)
Coiling Oracle (this should be very strong, and I can cut a blue card and a w/g card for this and the guildmage)
Silkwing Scout

Scout is technically just a test to see how good it is, but I have very high hopes for it.

These cards may make my deck and/or SB, but I don't know when I'll get to test them.
Azorius Herald (Better than Dragoons? Hard to say.)
Condemn (We'll see how often my Faith's Fetters gets destroyed).
Patagia Viper (over Thornscape Battlemage, if anything. Sigh @ Green being so good).
Rakdos Guildmage (not sure which two B/R cards I want in my SB--this, terminate, and spontaneous combustion are the three that look good).

[EnialisLiadon]

A card I'm currently testing in my skittles deck is Spikeshot Goblin.  Without any help, he's a decent pinger...but as my deck has Skullclamp, Armadillo Cloak(omg tech), Rancor and Bonesplitter(probably not optimal, but I've yet to pick up an Etched Oracle), he's been performing well when he hits the table.

The viper looks like a solid creature--sick with Crystal Shard.

[Kowal]

I've actually been running Spikeshot/Splitter/Clamp/Cloak/Rancor for a while.  I actually love Bonesplitter--  It lets your stupid little guys trade with huge issues with Moroii, and speeds up your clock a good chunk.  Gives you something to Trinket for if Clamp is already gone too.

[Matt]

I actually Trinket for Vial about as often as Clamp. And yeah, Bonesplitter is pretty sweet.

[Jacob Orlove]

I actually Trinket for Vial about as often as Clamp.

I always get Vial if I can, but Clamp is nice if I have a token generator or if it's late enough in the game. Vial is INSANE.

[Mr. Nightmare]

I tend to get Clamp asap, because if nothing else, it becomes the focus of the opponent.  Everyone knows Clamp wins games,  Mine even has "Good Game" written on it.  This means they focus resources on removing it, rather than the other threats that actually win you the game.  Compare it to Platinum Angel.

[Hi-Val]

Some of these split cards are really tempting, which makes me want to run the assy Dragon charms to supplement them. Oh well.

Also, Captain's Maneuver is patently insane.

The hondens have been really, really good for me but I feel like they're cheesy, which is the same reason I cut Capsize from the deck. Now I want to find a good way to control and kill that isn't Psychatog and that is halfway fun. Attacking ftw is the nut low, sadly.

[Jacob Orlove]

Doug: Hondens are only busten because people aren't willing to play cards that kill enchantments. You should really keep playing them if people refuse to adopt even the most basic countermeasures.

I love winning via creatures, but if you want a different kill, what about splice stuff and izzet guildmage? With enough tutoring, you could probably get the Lava Spike/Desperate Ritual combo going at least some of the time, which would be neat.

[EnialisLiadon]

My friend's control deck is packed with creature removal, land-d and card advantage engines.  He usually ends his games with a huge Fireball or Disintegrate.  I think such kill methods suck, but it's not using the attack phase.

I end most games with Moroii, personally.

What do people think of Condemn to supplement StP for indiscriminant removal?  I run scepter in my skittles deck, so I try to pack 7-8 instants for imprinting.

[ashiXIII]

A friend and I played a bunch of games last night. It made me realize which cards in my deck are ridiculous and which probably need improvement. It showed me that a good aggro build could actually be competitve. It also made me realize how completely gay LD is. He had an Avalanche Riders in his deck, and in mine were an Avalanche Riders, Wasteland, Wrecking Ball, and Reap and Sow. Now, with both decks running a good number of the new bounce lands, whichever one of us would fire off LD first would usually be far enough ahead that it was too difficult to catch up. BTW, Reap and Sow is so much better than it seems. It acts as acceleration and color fixing, but can also be used to tutor up powerful lands such as Vitu-Ghazi and the like. In addition, it can destroy a problem land your opponent might have, and on top of all that in the mid-late game, you can hit one of their important lands while fetching out one of your own. All this being said, we might need a rule in the format along the lines of 'no more than 2 cards capable of destroying lands in your deck.' I can brainstorm the majority of a list for an LD deck, and I don't think any deck in the format can really handle it due to the slow nature of the format and the several turns of mana-base building before any deck really does anything.

[Jacob Orlove]

I have played against several LD-based builds, and they really do not dominate. Anusien's list is solid, but doesn't have room for many of the really broken cards, and the other lists I've played against (built by Simon and Kowal) were both just bad.

The basic problem is that a LD deck is full of cards like Stone Rain that just are not very good. You will kill a bunch of lands, but your opponent's deck is generally going to be much better than yours. The only games where LD was really threatening was when my hand randomly had 3+ cards of a given color and all my sources of that color were destroyed.

The Guild lands are actually really good against LD, as long as you don't rush into playing them too soon. They let you keep making land drops, which is really good, and if any of them stick, that's two mana instead of one. They're a great topdeck against LD decks.


Now, a land destruction subtheme in an otherwise good deck could be very solid, because then you can gain some tempo while still playing with good cards, but then your opponent just has to worry about maintaining tempo, rather than keeping lands on the board at all. If they're careful about when they play their Guild lands, the game is probably still fair.

Frenzied Tilling is a good option if you like Reap and Sow.

[ashiXIII]

I have played against several LD-based builds, and they really do not dominate. Anusien's list is solid, but doesn't have room for many of the really broken cards, and the other lists I've played against (built by Simon and Kowal) were both just bad.

The basic problem is that a LD deck is full of cards like Stone Rain that just are not very good. You will kill a bunch of lands, but your opponent's deck is generally going to be much better than yours. The only games where LD was really threatening was when my hand randomly had 3+ cards of a given color and all my sources of that color were destroyed.

The Guild lands are actually really good against LD, as long as you don't rush into playing them too soon. They let you keep making land drops, which is really good, and if any of them stick, that's two mana instead of one. They're a great topdeck against LD decks.


Now, a land destruction subtheme in an otherwise good deck could be very solid, because then you can gain some tempo while still playing with good cards, but then your opponent just has to worry about maintaining tempo, rather than keeping lands on the board at all. If they're careful about when they play their Guild lands, the game is probably still fair.

Frenzied Tilling is a good option if you like Reap and Sow.

Frenzied Tilling is good, but I really like the option of getting nonbasics with Reap and Sow. I can get a huge jump on mana by grabbing a guild land, or I can get a powerful land like Vitu-Ghazi. Also, I somewhat agree with your take on LD decks. The deck does still need to do something broken. However, with the inheritly bad manabases in the format, your deck doesn't need to be dedicated entirely toward LD. I would probably only play LD spells that do something else in addition. Examples are: Avalanche Riders, Wrecking Ball, Reap and Sow (the 3 I already play,) Creeping Mold, Pillage/Demolish (probably not Pillage due to RR,) Befoul (again probably not due to BB, but these are just examples,) Benalish Emissary, Nightscape Battlemage, etc. These are all cards that can destroy lands, but also have other utility to them as well.

[Jacob Orlove]

Yeah, Anusien's list is good because he runs random Portal creatures that CIP to kill a land (there's a 1/1 for 3R and a 3/3 for 4R), and other useful spells.

I'm not sure how useful cards like Befoul/Creeping Mold/Wrecking Ball really are though, because they never actually do more than one thing. They're flexible, but I'd rather play something like Rolling Spoil, to kill a land and any 1/1s on the table. Playing a lot of skittles, I've found flexibility to be mostly overrated, but inherent card advantage (from multiple effects) is really good. I would honestly consider running Earth Rift and possibly even Implode, to get more than just a Stone Rain effect.

Another good approach would be Annex and Confiscate.

The real danger here is that so many of these cards are double mana and/or green. This deck would need a LOT of mana fixing, but be short on the green cards to get it done.

[ashiXIII]

Yeah, Anusien's list is good because he runs random Portal creatures that CIP to kill a land (there's a 1/1 for 3R and a 3/3 for 4R), and other useful spells.

I'm not sure how useful cards like Befoul/Creeping Mold/Wrecking Ball really are though, because they never actually do more than one thing. They're flexible, but I'd rather play something like Rolling Spoil, to kill a land and any 1/1s on the table. Playing a lot of skittles, I've found flexibility to be mostly overrated, but inherent card advantage (from multiple effects) is really good. I would honestly consider running Earth Rift and possibly even Implode, to get more than just a Stone Rain effect.

Another good approach would be Annex and Confiscate.

The real danger here is that so many of these cards are double mana and/or green. This deck would need a LOT of mana fixing, but be short on the green cards to get it done.

Yeah, I didn't even think about the Annex-type cards. I contemplated Earth Rift. You do get a lot of color fixing, though. You can run the appropriate signets/talismans. You get Wayfarer's Bauble, Darksteel Ingot, Fellwar Stone. These are all colorless options in addition to the staple Gemstone Mine, Mirrodin's Core, etc.

[Anusien]

I really really like my LD list but Jacob hit it on the head that you don't have room for as many bombs as you'd like.  It is very much a tempo deck, so getting as many beaters as you can is important.  Occasionally you blow the other guy out where they run out of lands, but more often it's turn 3 bounce/kill your bounce land, hit another land and try to get beaters on the table.  It's not uncommon to run into situations where you either basically start drawing blanks, or to get blown out by a powerful card advantage engine.

[ashiXIII]

I really really like my LD list but Jacob hit it on the head that you don't have room for as many bombs as you'd like.  It is very much a tempo deck, so getting as many beaters as you can is important.  Occasionally you blow the other guy out where they run out of lands, but more often it's turn 3 bounce/kill your bounce land, hit another land and try to get beaters on the table.  It's not uncommon to run into situations where you either basically start drawing blanks, or to get blown out by a powerful card advantage engine.

My friends and I have been playing more and more over the past week or so. We've each built a couple of new decks, and each time we play, almost every game comes down to who gets to fire off an LD spell first. Either color screwing or hitting a guild land with the spell. It gives the player a large enough early advantage to either get  his engines online first, play beaters and attack ftw, or even just recur the spell a couple of times for even more of an advantage.

[jpmeyer]

I got nothin'

        1 Dimir Aqueduct
        1 Golgari Rot Farm
        1 Rakdos Carnarium
        1 Boros Garrison
        1 Simic Growth Chamber
        1 Gruul Turf
        1 Mishra's Factory
        1 Vitu-Ghazi, the City-Tree
        1 Wasteland
        1 Gemstone Mine
        1 Treetop Village
        1 Swamp
        1 Plains
        1 Mountain
        1 Forest
        1 Island
        1 Snow-Covered Swamp
        1 Snow-Covered Plains
        1 Snow-Covered Mountain
        1 Snow-Covered Island
        1 Snow-Covered Forest

        1 Etched Oracle
        1 Crystal Shard
        1 Phyrexian Furnace
        1 Wayfarer's Bauble
        1 Chromatic Sphere
        1 Sensei's Divining Top
        1 Aether Vial

        1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
        1 Kodama's Reach
        1 Civic Wayfinder
        1 Thornscape Battlemage
        1 Eternal Witness

        1 Remand
        1 Probe
        1 Annex
        1 Honden of Seeing Winds
        1 Steamcore Weird

        1 Terror
        1 Smother
        1 Phyrexian Reclamation
        1 Trench Wurm
        1 Honden of Night's Reach

        1 Swords to Plowshares
        1 Radiant's Dragoons
        1 Orim's Thunder
        1 Honden of Cleansing Fire
        1 Devout Witness
        1 Faith's Fetters

        1 Lightning Bolt
        1 Tin Street Hooligan
        1 Flametongue Kavu
        1 Honden of Infinite Rage
        1 Dwarven Miner
        1 Fireball

        1 Putrefy
        1 Hull Breach
        1 Terminate
        1 Mortify
        1 Moroii
        1 Minister of Impediments
        1 Trygon Predator
        1 Coiling Oracle

[ashiXIII]

How's Coiling Oracle? He seems really friggin' good, 'specially with Shard (duh) but I can't fit him into my deck due to his u/g cost.

[Mr. Nightmare]

So far with my testing, Oracle is the nut high.  I cut Clutch of the Undercity and Kodoma's Reach (ouch) for Oracle and Putrefy.  So far, so good.

[Jacob Orlove]

Oracle is sweet. I fit him in along with Selesnya and Azorius Guildmages.

[Jacob Orlove]

I really really like my LD list but Jacob hit it on the head that you don't have room for as many bombs as you'd like.  It is very much a tempo deck, so getting as many beaters as you can is important.  Occasionally you blow the other guy out where they run out of lands, but more often it's turn 3 bounce/kill your bounce land, hit another land and try to get beaters on the table.  It's not uncommon to run into situations where you either basically start drawing blanks, or to get blown out by a powerful card advantage engine.

My friends and I have been playing more and more over the past week or so. We've each built a couple of new decks, and each time we play, almost every game comes down to who gets to fire off an LD spell first. Either color screwing or hitting a guild land with the spell. It gives the player a large enough early advantage to either get  his engines online first, play beaters and attack ftw, or even just recur the spell a couple of times for even more of an advantage.

What do your mana curves and mana bases look like? I have 13 1 and 2 mana spells (not counting Phyrexian Reclamation which I normally don't cast without 1B open), and my manabase is built to strongly emphasize the colors I care about (green first, for mana fixing, then blue and black). When I pick up the Simic and Azorius Guild lands, I'll have 12 green sources, 8 Blue, 7 Black, 5 White, and 4 Red, although that's with a Salt Marsh that I don't love and might replace. Red has the fewest sources because it has no gold cards, and thus is only necessary for 6 spells. Green gets maximum emphasis because it's my manafixing color, and to support Eternal Witness and Yavimaya Elder. Blue and Black are next because I have 4 U/B cards, and I need double black for my recursion enchantments and double blue for drift. Especially with transmute, blue and black are colors that can really help solve mana problems, if I have green mana to begin with. Red and white are basically removal colors, so they get much less emphasis in the mana base. This mana base has been very helpful in making sure I get to cast my spells, although it has a couple too many CIP tapped lands.

[Cross]

Earlier in the thread people were posting sideboards, but as of late none have been posted. Are you guys still building them, and if so are there any restrictions on what colors they have to have?

Also, has anyone taken advantage of any of the new karoos? I havent yet but Im considering. Right now Ive got 6 (golgari, dimir, selesnya, izzet, gruul and orzhov). Is there a point where you have too many karoos?

[Hi-Val]

When you open hands that contain 2 karoos, you have too many. I think running 4-5 is fine, but beyond that you run into risks. Also, as more Karoos are run, it increases the power of the opponent's Annexes and Confiscates.

[Philatio]

Earlier in the thread people were posting sideboards, but as of late none have been posted. Are you guys still building them, and if so are there any restrictions on what colors they have to have?

Also, has anyone taken advantage of any of the new karoos? I havent yet but Im considering. Right now Ive got 6 (golgari, dimir, selesnya, izzet, gruul and orzhov). Is there a point where you have too many karoos?

Sideboards have to be 15 cards, no more than one of any card between the sideboard and main deck (ie the sideboard is highlander, too).  also can't have any rares or restricted cards in the board, just like the main.

that being said, the sideboard can be whatever colors you want - you could have a 15 red card sideboard if you want.

the only thing is that post sideboarding, your library needs to have the correct color distribution.  so when you board, it is easiest to swap a UG card in for a UG, but you can do a UG and a UW for a WG card and a blue card.  or anything that keeps your main color-legal.

[Jacob Orlove]

When you open hands that contain 2 karoos, you have too many.

I find that's only a real problem when you have more karoos than regular lands. In any case, I think the benefits of the karoo lands outweigh the drawbacks when you compare them to pretty much any other CIP tapped lands. I would feel comfortable with 6-7, but I think running more is a mistake because you have to run ones with colors you don't really need, which messes up your mana base (Boros Garrison is not going to find itself in any of my Skittles decks).

[Nomad]

Earlier in the thread people were posting sideboards, but as of late none have been posted. Are you guys still building them, and if so are there any restrictions on what colors they have to have?

The restriction is that after board you still need to obey the deck construction rules.  I haven't run a tournament in a while, but when I do and care, I examined the likely metagame (I anticipate my own decks and Phil's decks making maybe half of those present, much of the time...) and figured out what I need and what I can drop - so it was really all a bit organised.  Far more than my real type 1 playing ever is...!

Since other groups (Jersey Coast guys in particular) have now started building decks and getting keen, I might have to actually do some deckbuilding myself.  Major obstacle is my deck is currently all foil, and additions are much harder to keep it that way...

Also, has anyone taken advantage of any of the new karoos? I havent yet but Im considering. Right now Ive got 6 (golgari, dimir, selesnya, izzet, gruul and orzhov). Is there a point where you have too many karoos?

I think this is why people are thinking LD leaning decks are the buts, since Karoo lands are inherently slow, and it'll get you enough tempo to get a Flametongue/Etched Oracle even maybe an Avalanche Rider to do enough for the win.

[TD]

my friends and I have been playing skittles more and more and we find there should be a change in the rules. With the way the mana bases are  so inconsistant and how easy it is to win with a single LD spell we feel there should be a free mulligan rule. I think allowing a free mulligan will help the format and make the games less one sided. What do you guys think?