Bird Sh*t, or u/w/g threshold

[doomhed]

in a larger tourney, you need the ability to counter first turn more than you need the Duressing power or chant. yo be honest, most times we use Mis-d to protect dropping a null rod in the first 2 turns of the game.

I said LARGER. meaning like 100+ players. like, oh, say waterbury.

[Imsomniac101]

i'm still not following you here. What are you refering to?

Also Predict is so shitty it's not funny.

[Nastaboi]

Shadow of doubt didn't fare as well. I have now 1-3 free slots to fill either meta cards like Naturalize/Annul or 4th Swords/Null Rod/stuff. However, I am still searching a proper SB plan against following:

-Gifts
-Stax
-Non-dragon combo decks that use GY as a resource (Salvagers/combo-Keeper/TPS)

Agains Oath I like Ray of revelations and some maindeck disruption, if meta calls for it. Agains Stax usually have Oxidizes and Naturalizes, but I could use Kataki, Sacred Ground or even Energy Flux. Which is the best configuration, if I think I am going to play 1-2 Stax decks in given tournament?

People have shown cards like Orim's chant, BEB and Cursed Totem in their boards. What are they for? BEB I see going in against Joblins, but does it get sided in in other matchups? One could try Galina's Knigh against them, given that the U/W fish player from the last SCG top8 used Silver Knights. First strike is rather irrelevant, but pro red is not.

Right now I have no ways to stop Yawgmoth's Will other than Meddling Mage naming it and Null Rod driven mana disruption. The latter usually does it, but can I SB in anything to help? Does Orim's Chant make it? Extract feels to crappy and card disadvantageous and Thief takes too much time and mana to do its trick.

Waiting for your input,

[The Chosen One]

In respect to playing the galina's night, with the mana cost of uw, it would seem to me that casting this little bad boy could be a problem... The U/W fish deck you referred to would be better suited to run them due to the aether vials in the deck. What about absulute law? This would make even the animated mishra's factory into an amazing blocker against goblins. I had considered running 2/3 absolute laws in the sb after having them in another u/w deck I was playing with that was having a major problem getting it's creatures burned away, they proved themselves to be very useful....

[Nastaboi]

UW to cast is just the same as with Meddling Mage, and since you are not relying on Wastelands to cast stuff, UW is as easy as it gets. At least it is times better than Silver Knight's WW. Absolute law does absolutely nothing on its own, and your creatures are already bigger than theirs. It does stop Kiki-Jiki though  :shock: . Anyhow, this not very common mathchup for me and I am more interested in those others I asked.

[The Chosen One]

Orim's chant in my opinion is definitely worth a few slots in the sb. As far as the rootwater thief, I can say from my own playing experience that if they have no way to block, they rule... If you have to pay 3 to get over their defense, and activate the "pick" ability, they tend to be  a little cost-ineffective. Although, they pair up well with the mages, and they can definitely give you edge in a game. I would say that they are good only if your meta is low creature, where I play on a normal basis, they are only good against a few decks. They would most likely be a 3 of in my sb if I was taking this to a tournament

[Nastaboi]

I tested a little bit Thieves against Gifts, and they could be goldy - if they only stayed alive. They just so die to REB. Preside, the matchup is rather even, but after boarding Gifts have REBs and you have nothing to match them. That is what makes the matchup in their favor IMO.

[j0bril]

I tested a little bit Thieves against Gifts, and they could be goldy - if they only stayed alive. They just so die to REB. Preside, the matchup is rather even, but after boarding Gifts have REBs and you have nothing to match them. That is what makes the matchup in their favor IMO.

BEBs are excellent vs Gifts.  It hits Burning Wish, Pyroclasm, Recoup, Rack and Ruins (for Null Rods), Flame Fusillade (if they are running Vault combo as a kill condition), as well as REBs that they most certainly would side in. 

[Imsomniac101]

I've been playing quite a few games even though I'm supposed to be studying (go me), and have come back to share more knowledge.

I play 3x Chill in the board exclusively for the FCG matchup. Just make sure you can answer a turn Lackey and you'll be fine. BEB solidifies the matchup a bit more, but that takes up a full 6 slots in the SB. Galina's Knights are unnecessary. While their not hard to cast, they still can't block a Piledriver.

As far as Rootwater Thieves go, you shouldn't be siding them in vs decks that can block them anyway. They are mana intensive, but as of current there is nothing better.

I still haven't tested Orim's Chants yet.

Also, Pithing Needle is crap. Null Rod and Swords to Plowshares will handle everything; unless you want to Manascrew an opponent by naming a fetchland with it.

Kataki is crap vs Stax. This is especially true if it is Uba Stax. These will definitely be Energy Flux instead.

Also, graveyard hate is definitely unnecessary as you destroy decks that utilize the graveyard as a resource (sans YawgWill).

I'm testing a bunch of Drawing options at the moment. Cards I am testing are:
Ninja
Standstill
Cephalid Coliseum
Curiosity
Standstill looks like the preferred draw engine right now. I know it sounds weird,  but just try it. Any other suggestions?

Also Annul is definitely MD material. I played vs CS today and countering moxen is far more devastating than you think.

[The Chosen One]

I am not so sure I would agree with the addition of standstills. I mean, I love standstills, and I mean LOVE them(almost everyone I play with knows me to run them if I run a deck with blue), but I have found that they really work only if you can seriously empty your hand by playing threats and drop one in that same turn. Cloud of faeries loves standstill, but they don't think throwing them into this deck is really a good idea, but who knows? I play U/R fish and that deck loves hands that play out turn one volcanic with a daze in hand, then turn two, factory, cloud, cloud, standstill.... =)

Cephalid collesium, hmmm, I like it, but would have to play it to prove it's worth.. Curiosity is good, except with no evasive creatures, could be a dead card(but it does pitch to force/misdirection)

[Nastaboi]

Cephalid Colisseum is -1 card advantage AND requires threshold, and thus cannot be draw engine even by definition. Cantrip draw engine is prefered, because it lets you see many cards in short period AND fills your grave. Standstill does not fill your grave. And Curiosity really rocks with Nimble Mongoose.

I have not tested BEB versus Gifts yet, but I wonder if they really would bring in Rack and Ruins. I mean, they have to kill their own Mox because you have no other targets. One Echoing truth and Rebuild is enough for them.

[The Chosen One]

Oh, yeah, I forgot that you need threshold for the colesium, my bad. Ok, then it sucks 
If the decks' mana base could be finaggled to make ww an easier casting cost, true believer would be a way around gifts.

[Imsomniac101]

The idea of the above set of cards I mentioned is to re-vitalise your mid-late game when you're stalling for the win. I've been playing Gifts for quite a while too, and I realised that Gifts can just wait for you to play disruption while he plays Card Advantage spells (TfK, Gifts etc) then just combo you out when you don't have anything left.

Brainstorm and Mental Note fulfill early game cantripping just fine. I'm just worried about the late game where the Gifts player has around a 2 turn window of opportunity to combo you out.

Also, Coliseum can just act as an Island while you gain Threshold which isn't too bad.

Also Ninja is shit. Curiosity is shit. Does anybody have any ideas for more card draw? AK anybody?

Also note that all the suggestions for card drawers are for the SB, and are only to be used in the Control Matchup. I hav already found what I believe to be the optimum MD.

I have also shifted the 3rd MisD to the MD as it is godly. I didn't realise how much i missed it. I have also put Mystical Tutor in the SB to make room for it. I didnt want to cut the 3rd Mental Note as running two is just a waste of time and space. I still like Mystical though and will side it in in the Control match.

[Nastaboi]

Colisseum cannot act as an Island because it is a nonbasic and don't evade nonbasic hate, which was the reason we play basics at first place. One damage per use might also count sometimes.

For some extra draw against control, I'd go with Ninja's. They have worked before, why not now? But rather than extra draw I'd go with Rootwater Thief, because two hits from it get control player's win conditions removed. They are not half bad against combo, either.

[j0bril]

First of all, I believe having exactly 60 cards is the only choice.  Adding more than 60 cards contributes to not seeing ancestral as much (not to mention forces, mages, etc.).

Secondly, running anything less than the maximum amount of creatures has given me problems in the past.  Against aggro and aggro/control, I couldn't compete with their superior numbers of creatures.  Against control and combo, I require the constant pressure of 2 or 3 creatures mowing them down before I run out of disruption to hold them off.

If I had to build a list of BS today, expecting a gifts/combo heavy meta, it would look something like this:

Creature Base (12):
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
4 Meddling Mage

Disruption (20):
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Null Rod
3 Stifle
3 Daze
3 Orim's Chant

Draw/Utility (7):
4 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Gush

Mana Base (21):
4 Flooded Strand
1 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Savannah
1 Island
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Black Lotus

Sideboard (15):
3 Annul
3 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Ray of Revelation
3 Suppression Field
3 Sacred Ground


This build is very similar to the list I ran at Samite's tournament a couple weeks ago with a few noticable changes.  


Explainations:

Swords to Plowshares:  These have been golden.  From removing a chump blocking mox monkey to sending a DSC farming, I'm never unhappy to see these in my hand.  The fact is, mostly every deck in vintage right now is running some sort of creature base.  Even if just against DSC, I believe they are well worth a 4x slot.

Orim's Chant:  This card has so many uses in this deck, it is sick.  It can act as a psudo time walk stalling your opponent while smashing his face with threshold men.  It can act as a duress to either bait out a counter or force your important spells (like mage or null rod) through.  It can counter dark ritual.  It can counter yawgmoth's will.  It can be used during your opponent's upkeep to make them burn on their mana drain mana.  It can stall a DSC while you hope to draw an answer.  It can help win counter wars.  Or it can be thrown in the graveyard just to increase the card count toward threshold.  Plus a bunch of uses I haven't even touched on.  This card is a clear winner.

Savannah:  If not just for the "WTF ARE YOU PLAYING?!?"  look at tournaments.  At Waterbury, I played Windswept Heath, popped for a Savannah.  My opponent had no idea.  The single Savannah has may seem out of place, however, it has been the right choice to fetch in the right circumstances.  I'm surprised how happy I've been to see this land on many circumstances.

Suppression Field:  This is something new I've been wanting to try.  It seems that this is an excellent foil to the Vault combo that many gifts decks run now.  Granted, Null Rod shuts down the combo also, but Suppression Field cannot be Rack and Ruined (or REB'd).  Also, it could be devistating to drop an early Suppression field distorting their mana development disrupting their fetches.  Also, this might be an idea to run against other decks in the field such as CS, Madness, and random combo builds.  This does hurt our fetches and Wastes, but I believe the benefit far outweighs any drawback.


As for additional draw, I'm not sure what could be used.  But more importantly, I'm not sure what would have to be removed in order to add this new draw.  Most likely, the deck would have to be rebuilt from the ground up with some draw engine.  If this were to happen though, it would most likely look like WTF/w or something.

[Imsomniac101]

Since when do control decks side in non-basic hate? I think you're all misinterpretting me. I said put extra Draw in the SB for control matches. Also Ninjas are hidious. I don't want to bounce Mage to my hand so that's only 6-8 creatures to NInja out.

Also, Supression Field is crap. Tried and failed. If you want to hit fetch activations, Pithing Needle is better and even that is crap.

Also I disagree completely with the 4th Werebear. There is no match up in the world where I would want the 4th unless I'm playing against some deck with 8x StP, but that is illegal.

[edit] why the hell am I posting 1 hour before my exam.

[j0bril]

Since when do control decks side in non-basic hate? I think you're all misinterpretting me. I said put extra Draw in the SB for control matches. Also Ninjas are hidious. I don't want to bounce Mage to my hand so that's only 6-8 creatures to NInja out.

Also, Supression Field is crap. Tried and failed. If you want to hit fetch activations, Pithing Needle is better and even that is crap.

Also I disagree completely with the 4th Werebear. There is no match up in the world where I would want the 4th unless I'm playing against some deck with 8x StP, but that is illegal.

[edit] why the hell am I posting 1 hour before my exam.

Which matchups have Supression Field been awful in?   Have you tested them against decks that run Vault combo?  How is pithing needle better when there is so much artifact hate around now?   Have you tried it against a current gifts build?

Just curious as I've never actually used the card yet.

[Imsomniac101]

Supression Field actually kills your own mana development. Look at your mana base. 5 fetches is a huge part of it. Disrupting it is just asking to get whacked over the head with your own limbs. It's like saying I'll cut off my arm because my enemy gets freaked out by dismemberment.

Also I haven't tested vs Vault combo yet. But looking at it as is, I think that Null Rod will be all you need. Who the hell sides in artifact hate vs BS? I'd be glad if somebody did that cuz their wasting slots. And even if they do play one vs you they'd hav to target a mox of some sort. Not to mention MisD.

Needle is terrible in IMO. Null Rod and StP deal with most of the threats. After that you have Stifle + Wasteland.

Has anybody tried Crucible or Life of the Loam? I'd be interested in your results. Also does anyone have suggestions for card draw.

[j0bril]

Supression Field actually kills your own mana development. Look at your mana base. 5 fetches is a huge part of it. Disrupting it is just asking to get whacked over the head with your own limbs. It's like saying I'll cut off my arm because my enemy gets freaked out by dismemberment.

Yeah, but the thing is BS needs 2 mana to operate (which is safe to assume the 2 mana used to cast the Suppression Field).  Gifts needs more mana by FAR.

Also I haven't tested vs Vault combo yet. But looking at it as is, I think that Null Rod will be all you need. Who the hell sides in artifact hate vs BS? I'd be glad if somebody did that cuz their wasting slots. And even if they do play one vs you they'd hav to target a mox of some sort. Not to mention MisD.

In the 2 large proxy tournaments I've been to since Ravnica has become legal, gifts players have sideboarded R+R both times.  Null rod is just THAT much of a threat.

[Imsomniac101]

But why Supression Field?

You won't be able to optimise your brainstorms half of the time, which is actually key to this deck. I'd go as far to say that Brainstorm is far more savage in this deck than any other. If you're willing to cut off your own mana and make a good card in your deck unplayable then go for it.

I hate it when a new set comes out, people keep mentioning horrible cards to put in decks where it obviously doesnt work. This card is a classic case.

[j0bril]

But why Supression Field?

Because it is an answer to the Time Vault combo which evades just about every non-bounce hate they have.  That in addition to Null Rod is a formidable defense to most gifts builds.

You won't be able to optimise your brainstorms half of the time, which is actually key to this deck. I'd go as far to say that Brainstorm is far more savage in this deck than any other. If you're willing to cut off your own mana and make a good card in your deck unplayable then go for it.

Brainstorm is far from unplayable with Suppression Field in play. 

I hate it when a new set comes out, people keep mentioning horrible cards to put in decks where it obviously doesnt work. This card is a classic case.

Again, I said that I haven't tested this card yet.  It seems solid and very disrupting to the CS/Gifts builds out there now, not to mention an amazing complement to Null Rod. 

As to your claims of mentioning "horrible cards to put in decks where it obviously doesn't work"...how does it obviously not work?  Snowfall obviously doesn't work.  Suppression Field obviously has not been tested enough against the most popular decks to determine its worth.

While on the subject of horrible cards that don't work, I believe Mental Note is a horrible card people try to put in Bird Sh*t, where it obviously doesn't pull its weight.  Want proof?  Check the last successful build of Bird Sh*t that placed at Waterbury and let me know what you think.

[Imsomniac101]

Why doesn't Supression Field work? because it is Anti-Synergetic with the rest of your deck. I would venture as far as to say that Null Rod is all you need. If you are that worried about the Vault, play Needle which doesn't disrupt your own mana base.

Note that unplayable= not optimal. Sure you can still play Brainstorm, but you won't be able to shuffle those cards away which is what makes Brainstorm so savage (being able to see 3 new cards).

As to Suppression Field's invulnerability, BS should be able to protect Null Rod well enough without adding random junk to the deck. Play 3x MisD and you'll be fine.

Just because a deck placed highly in a large tournament doesnt mean that it is optimum or that certain card choices are optimum. I have found through personal experience that Mental Note is good. Yes I have played without Mental Note, with a full playset of creatures and it was horrible.

[doomhed]

Why doesn't Supression Field work? because it is Anti-Synergetic with the rest of your deck. I would venture as far as to say that Null Rod is all you need. If you are that worried about the Vault, play Needle which doesn't disrupt your own mana base.

Note that unplayable= not optimal. Sure you can still play Brainstorm, but you won't be able to shuffle those cards away which is what makes Brainstorm so savage (being able to see 3 new cards).

As to Suppression Field's invulnerability, BS should be able to protect Null Rod well enough without adding random junk to the deck. Play 3x MisD and you'll be fine.

Just because a deck placed highly in a large tournament doesnt mean that it is optimum or that certain card choices are optimum. I have found through personal experience that Mental Note is good. Yes I have played without Mental Note, with a full playset of creatures and it was horrible.

This from the guy who wanted to cut a misdirection and a mana source for 2 mental notes (and then going to 61 cards for the 3rd).

Have you tested ANY matchup other than stax or oath? This seems to be your error. you keep focusing on the oath matchup as if it is completely a shutout in thier favor. It is not. same with stax. Game 1 is sometimes hard, but the surprise factor of your deck makes it harder for stax players to figure out how to Stop you.

By the way. J0Bril is the person who made both T8's. He is Brian Rozzero.   he and I have been working on this for the better part of a year. if he tells you it is suboptimal, it has been tested and found wanting.

[Imsomniac101]

This from the guy who wanted to cut a misdirection and a mana source for 2 mental notes (and then going to 61 cards for the 3rd).

Why the hell are you trying to discredit me!? Please stick to the topic at hand and don't start a flame war.

Have you tested ANY matchup other than stax or oath? This seems to be your error. you keep focusing on the oath matchup as if it is completely a shutout in thier favor. It is not. same with stax. Game 1 is sometimes hard, but the surprise factor of your deck makes it harder for stax players to figure out how to Stop you.

By the way. J0Bril is the person who made both T8's. He is Brian Rozzero.   he and I have been working on this for the better part of a year. if he tells you it is suboptimal, it has been tested and found wanting.

Yes. I suspected he was, as his list was very similar to the one from Samite's tourney.

He is suggesting a card that negates 10 lands in your deck that also makes Brainstorm horrible. His credits mean nothing if he doesn't have any common sense. For all I know, it could have been savage lucksacking.

Yes, FYI, I have tested more than the Oath & Stax matchup. I have played against CS, Fish (all sorts), Goblins, MUC, Zombie Infestation, Dragon, Gifts (non-Vault), Workshop Aggro.
But Oath and Stax are frequent matchups which is why I'm concentrating on them.

Also the surprise factor is all but gone as everyone knows what BS is.

[j0bril]

Why the hell are you trying to discredit me!? Please stick to the topic at hand and don't start a flame war.

He is suggesting a card that negates 10 lands in your deck that also makes Brainstorm horrible. His credits mean nothing if he doesn't have any common sense. For all I know, it could have been savage lucksacking.

I think you need to step back and take your own advice.

[Methuselahn]

Suppression Field obviously has not been tested enough against the most popular decks to determine its worth.

Then why put it in your sideboard and post the list?

Personally, I see Suppression Field as not narrow enough to be a sideboard card for this deck.  Okay, it stops Time Vault, but that is just a lucky hit by nailing a quirky two card combo involving an obsure, archaic artifact.  Besides, as you said, Null Rod is just as good and comes down earlier than Flame Vault goes off. Your whole deck is set up to hate and disrupt, this is adds an extra step to have to play around, two mana, like Energy Flux.  Energy Flux can be played around and I think this can be played around in the same manner, to the point, in that context, that it is not worth having as a sideboard card.  I know that my welders ain't scared of no Suppression Fields.

Imsomniac101 cries of Brainstorm/Suppression Field masochism!

It really doesn't hurt j0bril's deck that much.  It's not like he has alot of shuffle effects anyway.

 

[Imsomniac101]

Imsomniac101 cries of Brainstorm/Suppression Field masochism!

It really doesn't hurt j0bril's deck that much.  It's not like he has alot of shuffle effects anyway.

Then the question is why is he playing Brainstorm then? If you can't abuse it, then why use it? (hey, that rhymes!)

Also, you're forgetting that it stops you from being able to use your strip effects.

@Jobril:
My most sincere apologies about my last post. In future I will be civil and will stick to the topic at hand instead of making personal attacks. I hope that your teammate can do the same. I thank you for not reacting rashly like I did. I hope that you accept my apology.

[Methuselahn]

Actually, I think you are misreading my post.  I don't believe that Suppression Field is hurting his own spells/strips. 

And no, I forget nothing.

[Imsomniac101]

OK. These last few weeks gave me more time to test. I've "discovered" some tech. I played over MWS with an Italian player, and he showed me some tech. Forget Suppression Field, it's not a card that you can use vs a wide range of decks. Extract is a much better card to use.

Extract - U
Sorcery
Search target player's library for a card and remove it from the game. Then that player shuffles his library.

It's far cheaper than Rootwater Thief and isn't as vulnerable as REB. And unlike Suppression Field, it affects all builds of Gifts and not just the Flame-Vault variety.

[Shikari]

Why Extract? It've tested it already and it doens't seem to have that much of an impact. Most of the time, you need around 2 to hinder your opponent, and drawing it isn't that easy in this deck. Furthermore, you need 3 of these for it to be really effective, and the deck doesn't really have alot of empty slots.

I thought Birdshit is a Aggro/Prison/Control deck. Extract doesn't really seem to suit the deck. Also, Meddling Mage does roughly the same thing. In my opinion, Meddling Mage is far superior at denying cards than Extract.

Also, is Orim's Chant really that good? It's only useful in certain situations. Anyway, you're not supposed to let your opponent Mana Drain your spells away in the first place right? Cause that'll shift the tempo in their favor already..