Vintage Forum

[Gabethebabe]

Is it good for anything at all?

If you look at the rate people post there, this forum is just near dead. It is the forum with the lowest turnover of threads. The pride of TheManaDrain is just sitting there, being pretty and being ignored.

There are already two kinds of T1 forums and if you do bad in the Open Forum you get moved to Newbie. Is it really necessary to have three levels?

Why do people that can post in the Vintage Forum, post in the Open Forum instead? Because they like to have more response and have no problems ignoring the 'dumb' responses that pop up occasionally.

[forests failed you]

To be honest the last time I started a thread in the Vintage forum it got ignored and nobody even posted in it. 

I think that the Vintage forum really shines when there is an extremely relevent topic that deserves discussion and/or attention, but is likely to get a lot of stupid responses from people who don't know what they are necessarily talking about.  For instance, I think that Windfall's "let's Talk About Trinisphere" thread was a great Vintage forum discussion because it was a relevent topic, but had it been (and it was in the open forum) in the open forum people were just saying a bunch of stupid shit that was ridiculous and detracted from any kind of productive dialog.  For instance, "now my Stax deck sucks!" or "That card was so annoying" et cetera.  I believe that thread got closed in the open forum.

In my opinion, for the most part the Open Forum is a better place to start a post if one is brainstorming ideas or concepts, because it includes more people.  However, sometimes in extreme cases I think the Vintage forum is necessary if there is a topic that needs discussion where random newbs would turn the whole conversation into an off topic argument about irrelevant things.

[Dozer]

The Vintage Forum is also the place where in-depth articles that are too narrow for SCG should be placed. We haven't had someone discuss the finesses of a draw engine versus the other or something similar to the old "Keeper Kernels" in a while. But I think that especially for discussing testing results that seem incredible or unbelievable, or discussing topics that migth get out of hand otherwise, the Vintage Forum should be there.

Maybe posts in the Vintage Forum are so well done that even the full users don't feel a need to reply? Posting a quality reply in Vintage instead of Open needs much more effort because nobody wants to drop the level of quality from the original post. That is a valid reason why threads lie dormant a lot.

Dozer

[nataz]

I kinda agree with Dozer and FFY,

But at this point in time I feel like its more of an E-penis thing.

[Dozer]

But at this point in time I feel like its more of an E-penis thing.

Sometimes it's good to have an e-penis.

[SpencerForHire]

The arguement of elitism and E-Penus is as old as TMD itself it seems.  Is TMD elitest, maybe. 
Does anyone but the moderation staff have any say in the issue: no. 
So should we use that as the basis of any arguement: no.

I am not a Vintage player any more, but I do recognize the need for the closed vintage area.  The reason being:  Sometimes you need a more in depth discussion that it is OBVIOUS the Open forum cannot give, simple as that.

[TracerBullet]

The arguement of elitism and E-Penus is as old as TMD itself it seems.  Is TMD elitest, maybe. 
Does anyone but the moderation staff have any say in the issue: no. 
So should we use that as the basis of any arguement: no.

I am not a Vintage player any more, but I do recognize the need for the closed vintage area.  The reason being:  Sometimes you need a more in depth discussion that it is OBVIOUS the Open forum cannot give, simple as that.

Keep going back.  BD Rakso lockdown, anybody?


Not to flame Smmenen, but I can remember a time when even he was locked out of the Beyond Dominia boards for supporting Prohibit in Mono-U.  Brown Paper Bag.

[Godder]

The arguement of elitism and E-Penus is as old as TMD itself it seems.  Is TMD elitest, maybe. 
Does anyone but the moderation staff have any say in the issue: no. 
So should we use that as the basis of any argument: no.

I am not a Vintage player any more, but I do recognize the need for the closed vintage area.  The reason being:  Sometimes you need a more in-depth discussion that it is OBVIOUS the Open forum cannot give, simple as that.

It's a nice theory, but the practice suggests that it simply isn't used that way, possibly because team boards are more popular now. It could also be a simple problem of numbers in that we don't actually have that many active Full Members/Adepts any more, so perhaps some more promotions are in order, if we want that forum to be a bit more active.

Maybe we should look at allowing anyone to reply, and making it clear that warnings and bannings will follow if people post stupid replies, and actually following it up?

Alternatively, is it a problem at all? Do we really care that it lies dormant?

Also, I disagree that we don't have a say - we do, we just don't have a vote .

[jpmeyer]

The T1 forum mattered back when 1) people didn't submit articles to SCG and 2) when there was far more activity in the format.

[Triple_S]

and when WoW didn't exist.....

[Godder]

Further to what I posted above, I did some digging and counting using the member search function...

There are 65 Full Members have fewer than 100 posts, from a total of 120, and there are 41 Vintage Adepts, a fair number of whom have either stopped posting, or mainly post in community forums. I realise that there are some newish Full Members who haven't really had time yet to get past the 100, but for every one of those, there's at least one Full Member (well) past the 100 mark who has stopped posting or who only posts in the Community Forums. I know post count isn't everything, especially here where quality is valued over quantity, but TMD has been effectively losing Full Members (and above) much faster than we've been adding them.

There was a reset in January 2004, and of our 120 Full Members, maybe 30 aren't listed as registered January 2004, and most of those were registered in February or March 2004. I realise that some of our Full Members have been promoted since then, but it still indicates that's there's not terribly many fresh members coming through. Of our 41 Vintage Adepts, only a handful were registered after January 2004, which, while it's not as alarming, is some extra weight.

Looking at the numbers, I don't think that we have 100 Full Members/VAs/LAs/Moderators who actively post about Vintage, and the number is actually probably more like 50 - 60. That said, the questions we have to ask ourselves are: Do we care? Does it matter? Do we need the forum at all? If the answer to those is yes, what are we going to do about it?

[The M.E.T.H.O.D]

You can't really pin the lack on posting on a singular reason.l

There are infinite reasons a couple being
teams
scg articles
legacy
wow
aging out
and a ton of other stuff

[SpencerForHire]

I blaim WoW.
In all seriousness though we know that Legacy has played a decent part in it since even the big names of Vintage are starting to get into it,  It's something new and people like it.  Vintage Closed will pick up slightly when Legacy becomes just another format.

[LotusHead]

It takes a lot to come up with something NEW worth posting in the closed Vintage Forum.

Since the restriction of Trinisphere (for example), the only thing to REALLY shake up T1 is Gifts Ungiven.

Saviors of Kamigawa hasn't broken much, nor has Ravnica (yet, I guess).

It's not like Fifth Dawn's impact (SALVAGERS and Crucible of Words, for example), DarkSteel's impact, Mirroden, Scourge, Onslaught, etc.


Besides, the Vintage forum has always had a slow reply rate. Always.

[Methuselahn]

Looking at the numbers, I don't think that we have 100 Full Members/VAs/LAs/Moderators who actively post about Vintage, and the number is actually probably more like 50 - 60. That said, the questions we have to ask ourselves are: Do we care? Does it matter? Do we need the forum at all? If the answer to those is yes, what are we going to do about it?

You bring up some interesting sets of numbers.  In the end, the forum is not needed, but it's not really hurting anyone.  In fact, I suppose it is a nice option.

[Bram]

We have a vintage forum?

[nataz]

Team Boards killed it more then anything I think.

Everything that I would want out of the vintage board, team boards have been able to supply. I still like it though, after all,

e-penis.
 
8=|D

[ctthespian]

Team Boards killed it more then anything I think.

Everything that I would want out of the vintage board, team boards have been able to supply. I still like it though, after all,

e-penis.
 
8=|D

I agree that team boards destroyed discussions more that anything.

Many friends and I joke that TMD is no longer The Mana Drain, but The Mean Deck.  It's sort of Meandeck's public message forum where old Mana Drainers hang out and shoot the shit.  Just take a look at the moderation staff and their team affilitations.  Despite having to sift though unexpierenced posts in SCG forums, you may find more open responses to ideas over there than here.

The Mana Drain is more of my calendar of events and what's happening in magic than anything else.

-Keith

[Komatteru]

Many friends and I joke that TMD is no longer The Mana Drain, but The Mean Deck.  It's sort of Meandeck's public message forum where old Mana Drainers hang out and shoot the shit.  Just take a look at the moderation staff and their team affilitations.

Jacob, JP, and Toad are the mods on Meandeck.  Toad isn't even around much anymore (when's the last time you saw him moderate a thread?), and JP doesn't even play Magic anymore.  Hyperion and Matt are both on Team Reflection.  So, it seems the score is evened at 2-2.  Plus, you can't even say that Meandeck owns TMD anymore.  I have no idea where you're getting this.

[Bram]

Me neither.

Just take a look at the moderation staff and their team affilitations.

Hyperion: not a Meandeck member
jeek: not a Meandeck member
Matt: not a Meandeck member
Jebus: not a Meandeck member
Me: not a Meandeck member

The only Meandeck members are JP (who no longer plays actively) and Jacob (who's a relatively recent addition to MD and was already our most respected moderator way before he made the team). Zherbus is out, too, so I don't see the meandeck thing at all.

[ctthespian]

Many friends and I joke that TMD is no longer The Mana Drain, but The Mean Deck.  It's sort of Meandeck's public message forum where old Mana Drainers hang out and shoot the shit.  Just take a look at the moderation staff and their team affilitations.

Jacob, JP, and Toad are the mods on Meandeck.  Toad isn't even around much anymore (when's the last time you saw him moderate a thread?), and JP doesn't even play Magic anymore.  Hyperion and Matt are both on Team Reflection.  So, it seems the score is evened at 2-2.  Plus, you can't even say that Meandeck owns TMD anymore.  I have no idea where you're getting this.

Having just read the thread about SCG acquiring TMD and I agree, I also stress that my post was in jest.  Still there was a time not that long ago that almost every mod was a member or closely affiliated with Mean Deck.

[bebe]

Who's Mean Deck? Should I know these guys? I know Team Rogue Canuck. Are these guys as good?

[Komatteru]

Woo! New full members means some activity!! Yippie!!

[MuzzonoAmi]

We have new Full Members?

[Dante]

We have new Full Members?

Part of the promotion exam is the details on what the first thread they would create in the closed forum.  Then they need to post that thread once promoted.  So a lot of the new threads there are from newly-promoted Full Members.

[Machinus]

That's an awesome idea. Good work to whomever came up with that.

[Komatteru]

That's been part of the exam since as long as I can remember.  I know I had to do that when I first got promoted like over a year ago.

[Limbo]

That's been part of the exam since as long as I can remember.  I know I had to do that when I first got promoted like over a year ago.

Same here. Talking about the exam, did anything interesting change in the new exam?

As for the Vintage Forum, I would like to see it stay around. There is a good discussion in there once in a while, and the part of the promotion exam where you need to create your first topic in there is one of the most interesting and challenging parts of the entire exam.

[Bram]

Talking about the exam, did anything interesting change in the new exam?

Yes

Oh, you mean stuff he would know about already

[Joel Rojo]

This whole thing with team forums impacts in more than one way, I'm sure. I retired years ago, but the reason why I was so into BD, and afterwards TMD (and respectively #BDchat and #Themantrain, which were huge parts of the experience) was the community, that's the reason why I still hang around even though I have no idea what the fuck is going on nowadays on vintage.

As time goes by, most of the awesome people have been going away, in some way or another, and this is still a cool place to hang around and see what's up, but I remember back in 2001/2002 I could just sit on the computer having fun with everyone. Today, not even Bram or Rudy spam as much as they used to, JP's appearances are scarce, and so on.

Anyway, my point is that the community has been fragmenting itself, first it was mostly regarding the game, but it HAS gotten weaker, progressively, and as the community loses cohesion, players lose motivation to stop around, which makes this whole thing even weaker, and we have this vicious circle that brings us to this. We created forums and message groups to discuss strategy away from TMD, and then we found we drew much more than just strategy from it, and now ironically we find that we drew much more strategy away from TMD than we initially thought.

Thinking as a marketer though, to make it through in a competitive environment, TMD should have a hook. If the discussion of strategy is weak (I don't know, but it's what I gather from the other posts), and the community aspect isn't as strong, then we don't have anything, and we should find a way out of this.

Anyway, to end this nonsensical fling of randomness of a post, the elitism thing DOES go back to the earliest days, Darren would go NUTS about it, precisely because elitism wasn't the correct term to discuss it, and nobody would seem to listen to him, which I always found entertaining, really. Damn I miss all that.