Warzone in France

[Britanny]

I'm sure you all heard something about the events in France. I don't know what your newspaper told about the current problems in the French suburbs but I want to know. So, let me know what did you read about this problem in your newspaper or TV .

If you want some more informations about it (I'm quite concerned with this problem since I actually live in the suburb).

I'm waiting for your reactions, comments about that.

N.B : I'm back !

Brit.

[Moxlotus]

This is what I got from the US media

2 teens/early 20s were accidentally killed nd riots started happening.  It's gone for however many days now and spread to around 300 cities/towns/whatever.  Fires are being set to cars and buses.  And recently a 65 yr old man was killed.

Other than that, not much else.  No real explanation as to why its continuing.  1 analyst of something says that they are mostly young muslims rebelling against a country that doesn't like them because they have nowhere else to go that will accept them.  Another analyst of whatever says it is continuing because of the crappy job situation in France.

[SpencerForHire]

I'm not going to watch US news as I'm sure they'll throw in Propaganda.  Anyone from Europe wanna give the real deal?

[Britanny]

I don't know if there is some other europeans who want to give their poitn of view on these events. The problem is that the main events happened in Paris, Lyon and Marseille, the three biggest cities in France. (You knon who is the other french on this forum.. anyway).
I'll write another more detailed post tomorrow with the main informations, and I specify, I'll give you the information from what I see and not the informations from the newspaper or TV, which are, as you said, full of propaganda.

[Limbo]

As I read in the papers / on the net, this is what they claim that happened:

12 or so days ago two young parisien guys were killed (electrocuted) in a transformatorhouse in a suburb of Paris (Clichy-sous-Bois). They were supposedly running from the police and tried to shake them by hiding in that structure. In the beginning, people from that specific suburb wanted to know what actually happened or wanted someone to apologize / take the blame. They started small riots to get attention for their claims, burning some cars and stuff.

Somehow, after 4-5 days or so, the riots suddenly intensified. Extending not only to other parts of Paris (both other suburbs and main city), but also "slowly" to more and more cities in France. By this time, the "demand" is not to know what happened with the two kids, but the people just want to be heard so the government knows that they won't take being neglected any longer (most people in the riots are poor people living in suburbs that slowly turned into the french equivalent of "Ghetto's"). Hundreds of cars are burned every night and also some (public) buildings are being set on fire (schools, McD and such).

By day 9-10 the rioters are not only more organized, but also turning their attention to the police instead of just cars. Some policemen are being shot at, getting wounded in the proces. Two nights ago a man got killed after being beaten by some rioters. Apparently, the French government is thinking of "unleashing" the french army to get control back in the cities. Some cities already have a curfew to protect against riots. The origin of the riots (Clichy-sous-Bois) is already calming down.

That is the story how it was (approximately) in the papers in the Netherlands. But as you already know, I was quite sceptical about it, that is why I asked for your knowledge on the subject. Although the info in your mail was quite clear, I would like to see the more elaborate story you are going to post here.

PS: There has been no mention in the dutch papers about the handicapped girl being killed. According to the papers, the old man was the first lethal victim of the riots.

[Royal Ass.]

Just a side note. France in general has a lot more riots and demonstrations than most western democracies due to that fact that their form of government is far less representational and accessable than say America's.  Because of this, people are forced to turn to rioting(in the case of the poor) or driving their tractors into the city (farmers) in order to be heard.  Though I am not saying this is the reason for the recent riots, it could add to it...

[Smmenen]

I have posted my thoughts in my livejournal which is in my sig.

[Klep]

My impression is that over the past few decades, discontent among North African immigrants over discrimination (perceived or otherwise, I don't know enough about internal French politics to judge) and poverty has been slowly rising to a boiling point, and has now been touched off by these two dumbasses who got themselves killed trying to hide in a power station from police they believed were chasing them.  Now the rioting is spreading to other areas in the nation where similar discontent exists, and is being bolstered by your generic malcontent taking the opportunity to get away with a bunch of random criminal activity.

I find it highly amusing that the big metric for the intensity of the riots is "# of cars burned."  I don't know why.  Stay safe Brit.

[Matt]

What I know:

A bunch of Muslims, mostly young, are angry about something or other. I heard it's because they were being treated with disdain for not being French but that was on the Daily Show so I don't know if that was a joke or not. And the paper's headlines today said it was spilling over in Brussels and Berlin.

[Jacob Orlove]

A bunch of Muslims

That's getting a lot of coverage in American media, but this is much more of a racial issue than a religious one.

Also, there's a certain gallows humor to France invoking an old curfew law that was originally created to suppress dissent during their war in Algeria--a war that brought most of these immigrants to France in the first place.

[Demonic Attorney]

Yeah, that was a counterrevolutionary measure in Algeria's colonial days, I think.

For me, this underscores the danger in stratifying society into insular, isolated groups.  This isn't to blame the French or say that their social model is bad...every country does it, to some degree.  It's just something everyone should work to minimize to prevent the "us versus them" mentality from exploding into episodes like this. 

I've heard reports from the American TV media that in the earlier stages of the riots, the French police were arresting Muslim juveniles, detaining them for a day or two, then releasing them whereupon the suspects would rejoin the rioting.  Now, the American media is not exactly sympathetic towards France in all things related to security policies, so I was wondering if anyone could confirm/disprove this.

[Pyromaniac]

Well, it seems yesterday they declared a state of national emergancy. This grants cities the power to put a limit on the time people can spend outside at night.

As far as I can tell, the news in Dutchieland said that it was slowly getting less and less worse, and that most of the guys involved in it were only in it for the voilence and publicity, bot to achieve anything. (Violence usually achieves nothing..). They also fail to see that their chances of ever finding any work have diminished. Employers will see where they came from and be like "dude, you were rioting.."

Rather disturbing though, is the fact that riots have broken out in Berlin and a few other German cities, as well as in Denmark, even though you hear little-nothing of it.

[Bram]

Dutch news has been preoccupied with these event. The major concern seems to be if this could spread to the Netherlands (seeing as how it's already spread to Belgium and Germany). There has been some high-up debate about that and questions were asked to your government.

So far, riots in The Netherland's have been few and far between, the last notable one some 3 years ago because of the death of a soccer supporter in 's-Hertogenbosch, iirc. The social situation in the Paris suburbs is thought to be incomperable to that in the Netherlands, but anyone who's ever been in Amsterdam's Bijlmer suburb would probably beg to differ.

Brit: are there tensions/problems in your suburb, too?

P.S. Glad to have you back on the boards!

[UR]

Like Bram I'm Dutch and he did an admirable job of describing the situation here. The debate around immigration and tolerance was already polarized here and I feel that this will only add to the tension.

The (far) right-wing French aren't going to see people whose chances in life are few and far between. They will see immigrants causing trouble. I'm not too happy with Jean Marie Le Pen (or whatever his name is) and I feel this situation may strenghten his cause.

Although I don't think there will be rioting in this country, I do think it will increase racist feelings... we have a reputation for tolerance around here, but I don't think we deserve it.

[knickers]

To add a little humor to a very serious topic ...



I love that photo ...
"lol"

[Bram]

...further proof that France is little more than Satan's IRC channel.

[Dozer]

Rather disturbing though, is the fact that riots have broken out in Berlin and a few other German cities, as well as in Denmark, even though you hear little-nothing of it.

Looking at the German "riots", we had four burned cars in Cologne and eleven cars and a scooter burned in Berlin, over two nights. Authorities here aren't worried, they say. Personally, I am not worried either about full-scale violence like in France. Some youths seem like they have to vent their frustration this way, but for a full-blown riot, the situation hasn't gone bad enough. The events in France are a signal, though; governments have to make a real effort to integrate immigrant youths and to give them a perspective in life. The underlying problem exists in Germany, too. It's not too late, but we need to develop a better integrated society in the near future. Otherwise these guys will not understand why they should acknowledge our society's rules when this society does nothing for them.

What I'm really worried about, though, is this: There was an incident a couple of months ago which worried me far more: On "Father's Day" (were men go out on the streets and in the parks to get drunk), 1000 young Germans in Dresden started rioting over two bottles of beer and beat the shit out of the sausage stand, burned it, destroyed a couple of cars and made the 20 or so police officers that first arrived on scene retreat. When the quickly called riot police came, about a 100 strong, some of the violence had already subsided but they still got a savage beating. They couldn't do more than just contain the violence in the park area, which was subsequently ruined.

Violence from nothing, without a cause and any reason, is what I fear most. The French have a reason, there was an event sparking the violence, and the situation in the suburbs seem to be -- from what I read here -- very depressing and hopeless. The French Secretary of State, Sarkozy, said that the suburbs should be "cleaned out with a high-pressure vapor cleaner" and more, so it is reported here. That is enough to call up such a resistance against officials and government when the mixture is already dangerous.

Dozer

[Moxlotus]

I'm unfamiliar with the causes/conditions of racism in France.

To the people who know about both America and France--would it be comparable to blacks in the American South before the 1960's?  Only now, instead of civil disobedience, it is full scale rioting to attempt change and reform?

Why are the suburbs a shithole in France?  In America the 'burbs are the place to be.

[Britanny]

I'm safe for the moment, thanks. The cities which are currently concerned are on the North of Paris, I'm living in the South.

Limbo told you what happened at the very beginning, they're now saying that the two young Muslims who hide in a transformatorhouse weren't pursued by the police... Then our Minister of Interior Department (Nicolas Sarkozy), came to what we call a "cité" (which is actually a huge residence with cheap flats and where the atmosphere is pretty hot since the population is rather poor), and said he was fed up with "the rabble" as he called the guys who live there (these guys are the one who are burning car at the moment). So, these guys weren't happy that the Minister had insult them so they started burning cars to protest.

Where are we now ?

-Four of the sixteen articles of the law of the 3 April 1955 are maybe going to be implemented in twenty-five districts of France. This law hadn't be implemented since The Algerian War.. This law involve a curfew, the closing of the rooms of spectacles, bars and places of meeting of any nature, the handing-over of the weapons of first, fourth and fifth categories, and give the capacity to order searchings in residence by day and night.
-Today, N.Sarkozy said that he was going to expel "without delay" foreigners in regular or irregular situation condemned for their participation in urban violences.

Next news tomorrow..

Moxlotus: the creation of the french suburbs (the closer ones from Paris) was between the XIXth and the XXth century, they were either industrial towns or dormitory towns for the people who were used to work in Paris. The buildings who were built in the 60s-70s are now in a very bad condition (because they were cheap and were built very fast). During the massive immigration after the war of Algeria a lot immigrants went to these residences because they were cheap.
Then, the time has past and nobody didn't care anymore with the suburb. So, it became the place of all traffics and delinquencies. They excluded themselves as they were a Muslim majority. When they saw that when you are excluding you (they didn't go to school, they were sstealingcars in other districts...) you couldn't have no job and that nobody want to hear you ; they start shouting, since nobody were listen to them even when they were shouting they started beating some people and now they are burning cars...


-Our Minister of the Interior ddepartmentthinks that we have to expel the people whe are involved in the urban violences...
-Our Prime Minister thinks that we must give money to associations in these hot districts and to set up a social action plan in schools...

[jpmeyer]

I'm unfamiliar with the causes/conditions of racism in France.

To the people who know about both America and France--would it be comparable to blacks in the American South before the 1960's?  Only now, instead of civil disobedience, it is full scale rioting to attempt change and reform?

Why are the suburbs a shithole in France?  In America the 'burbs are the place to be.

The term in French for "suburbs" ("banlieues") actually has connotations more like what we would label in America as "the ghetto" or "the projects".

[Moxlotus]

I'm unfamiliar with the causes/conditions of racism in France.

To the people who know about both America and France--would it be comparable to blacks in the American South before the 1960's?  Only now, instead of civil disobedience, it is full scale rioting to attempt change and reform?

Why are the suburbs a shithole in France?  In America the 'burbs are the place to be.

The term in French for "suburbs" ("banlieues") actually has connotations more like what we would label in America as "the ghetto" or "the projects".

Wow-that is news to me.  Thanks a lot guys (and girls).

[Britanny]

I don't think you can compare your ghettos and our suburbs we don't have no fights between gangs or some stuffs like, people are sometimes quite rich because of our social system (a lot of children=a lot of allowances). We just have some stupids guys who are smoking cannabis and hanging around all day and sometimes beatting people..


Note ; just want to say that 6 months ago I was a full user , 5 days ago I was a community member and now I'm a basic user ... Somebody can explain that ? ...

[SpencerForHire]

Well all I can say is stay safe TMDers of France / Europe / where ever the violence spreads/has spread to.

[vartemis]

We just have some stupids guys who are smoking cannabis and hanging around all day and sometimes beatting people..

I think these kinds of people are the natural evolution from those guys who used to sit on the bench drinking bottles labeled XXX and heckled everyone that walks by.

The photos I have seen are incredible... and, as everyone has said, stay safe. 

j

[Kasuras]

The situation in those suburbs is indeed very bad, or at least; it was 2 years ago. I went to Paris with school, and the situation there has impressed me a lot. Coming from the Netherlands, and especially from the more rich neighbourhoods; this kind of poorness was completely new for me.

It was like a movie situated in Mexico City: everything was gray, black people everywhere (really, the amount of black people there is a LOT), mattresses under the bridges, little children cleaning the carwindows.. everything that you don't want to see when entering a wonderful city such as Paris.

[Smmenen]

I don't think you can compare your ghettos and our suburbs we don't have no fights between gangs or some stuffs like, people are sometimes quite rich because of our social system (a lot of children=a lot of allowances). We just have some stupids guys who are smoking cannabis and hanging around all day and sometimes beatting people..

With comments like that you wonder why these riots are happening?   You sound like the conservatives in the 80s bitching about the "welfare queen."

[jpmeyer]

Oh man, "the welfare queen".  That was hillarious.

[Matt]

I don't think you can compare your ghettos and our suburbs we don't have no fights between gangs or some stuffs like, people are sometimes quite rich because of our social system (a lot of children=a lot of allowances). We just have some stupids guys who are smoking cannabis and hanging around all day and sometimes beatting people..

With comments like that you wonder why these riots are happening?   You sound like the conservatives in the 80s bitching about the "welfare queen."

80s? They're STILL doing that!

[nataz]

With comments like that you wonder why these riots are happening?   You sound like the conservatives in the 80s bitching about the "welfare queen."

liberal pansy!
If it was up to you, we'd be letting homeless people into college. AND paying their tuition, while giving minorities and other lazy people, free trips to Europe, all on the honest tax-payers dime!

I'm pretty sure you meant minorities and lazy people were two separate groups, so I fixed your post - Dante


Actually I was trying to imply that miminorities = lazy.
Sarcasm on the interweb is like like having a threesome for the first time.
It's fun for you, but no one else there understands what you are doing,

except steve, and maybe jacob. But that would be a pretty sucky threesome

[vartemis]

liberal pansy!
If it was up to you, we'd be letting homeless people into college. AND paying their tuition, while giving minorities, and other lazy people, free trips to Europe, all on the honest tax-payers dime!

would that mean i could play in some of the vintage tournaments in europe? sweet!

j