Wild Zombies

[ReAnimator]

Why Death Spark and not Darkblast?  Is it that you can return Death Spark without costing you a draw?

Death Spark gives him even more Squees. Darkblast does not.

I just quoted this from earlier in the thread.

essentially you need red in the board any way and you have no problem supporting, so the spark is better. Also it theoretically gives you an option to burn out an opp with this and barbarian ring and possibly Khorror though that is really reaching

[Liam-K]

Yeah, for darkblast fans who haven't got it yet, death spark returning to your hand to be cast is only half the fun.  You also get to return it to your hand so you can discard it again.

[sean1i0]

Congrats on the win, dude.  I would really love to see this replace Fish as the "control-aggro" deck of the format.  I know that fish is really good when no one is prepared for it, but overall, I just am not a fan of the deck.  Anyway, how are the extra discard effects working for you?  It seems that with enough *efficient* discard (a.k.a. cabal therapy and duress), the wasteland effects, and a fast clock, you could simulate the effect of force of will and other such fish cards, controlling the opponent for enough turns to be at least as efficient against control-combo decks, including oath (because diabolic edict X 2 destroys oath), and, maybe, even combo decks as fish.

Some null rod or chalice like card might also be need for that though.

[yespuhyren]

biggest difference is fish is budget.  This turns power and 4 bazaars.  It might be the best aggro control deck around, but its certainly not cheap.  Good job on the win man, and i'll see you at OVC

[Zomar]

I like this deck. One question however, do you ever feel like only having one fetchable red source mainboard was a problem? Then again the only decks that you would really need red against are control and they don't usually play strip effects.

[knickers]

Yeah, for darkblast fans who haven't got it yet, death spark returning to your hand to be cast is only half the fun.  You also get to return it to your hand so you can discard it again.

I got it, but I was still wondering ...
But hey, thanks for being ignorant ...

[Buttons]

This is a great build.  Congrats on making a valid archetype.

I want aggro to be in Vintage, I really do.  Granted, I play UbaStax, (*grins*), but would love for aggro to be a viable tier 1 deck.  Even better if it was cheap, so people would have to meta for it.

UbaStax really does roll on this deck, though.  Luckily, it's so expensive to build.  You'll have to play me on MWS sometime.

[ReAnimator]

I like this deck. One question however, do you ever feel like only having one fetchable red source mainboard was a problem? Then again the only decks that you would really need red against are control and they don't usually play strip effects.

Exactly, also with loam you never need more than one, if they blow it up you get it back. Also you have no red cards maindeck except Squee and Spark.
I was happy to board in the Plateau whenever I needed extra Red but I never once wanted to cut any of the other lands to run it maindeck.

This is a great build. Congrats on making a valid archetype.

I want Aggro to be in Vintage, I really do. Granted, I play UbaStax, (*grins*), but would love for aggro to be a viable tier 1 deck. Even better if it was cheap, so people would have to meta for it.

UbaStax really does roll on this deck, though. Luckily, it's so expensive to build. You'll have to play me on MWS sometime.

I don't play online, you'll have to face me at a SCG or come up to Canada sometime.

As for this being a viable aggro archetype, it really reminds me of O-stompy (go go Canada) the most, fast beats with a bazaar draw engine, except this has hand disruption instead of pure land disruption. Obviously this is a result of a different Meta. Pure mana disruption isn't really viable vs gifts or Oath where as hand disruption is.

I'm wondering if this could actually support the Threshold creatures? I have a feeling that without blue you would need to have a bazaar or else your toast, but who knows.

Yeah I would love to see aggro as a viable deck too, I don't know if this will end up being it but I can hope.

[Zomar]

I'm wondering if this could actually support the Threshold creatures? I have a feeling that without blue you would need to have a bazaar or else your toast, but who knows.

I don't think they are necessary, regardless of being supportable or not. The creatures in this deck already have so much synergy as is, and with that synergy comes power. The clock wont get any better or smoother, the question is whether or not the disruption will last long enough for your creatures to win.

I proxied this deck up and I'm not entirely sure if I'm playing it correctly (when to dredge, etc), but it seems to be working well. The wasteland/stripmine lock seems to be the core of this deck, or the play that seemed to keep on occuring in my limited goldfishing. Once that is established, it doesn't matter what you win with. With the draw power, dredging, and tutors the 3 strip land seem to be enough, what is everyone elses opinion on this? Other than that though, all seems good here.

Duress and Cabal Therapy are amazing, especially cabal therapy and its synergy with discarding to bazaar and flashback saccing basking rootwalla off bazaar. Is 3 duress the right number?

Should this deck use five moxes?

[MoxMonkey]

Why no Imperial Seal.  It finds a Bazzar Squee and anything else.  You dont run that many instants anyway every thought of adding it?

[Zomar]

Why no Imperial Seal.  It finds a Bazzar Squee and anything else.  You dont run that many instants anyway every thought of adding it?

Some cards that have been suggested but not tested so far are:
Mox Diamond <-- Synergy with Loam and more accell, this also ups your splash colour count without taking away your GB sources
Crop Rotation <--- helps set up a strip lock or gets you a bazaar, Obvious synergy with Loam
Imperial Seal <--- this works well with Bazaar's as it gets you the card right now, the fact that I don't own one and my deck had zero proxies is why it got the cut.

I've noticed that most of the type you want to tutor for strip or bazaar and that often vamp or demonic just sit in your hand until you are done doing everything else. I think if another tutor is to be added it should be crop rotation as it puts the tutored card into play now.

[The Grim Reaper]

This deck is a lot of fun and I'm trying to throw together a budget version.
Can anyone suggest a replacement for Bazaars? Even if i have to splash another color?

Thanks in advance,

Grim

[Gorlo]

Congratulations for your win! You have made some good innovation in vintage not only by creating a deck, but mostly by metagaming it well.

Oh, and one question: Have you ever tried crop rotation? As I think of it, it could really help put a strip, ring or bazaar into play and its ''disadvantage'' is somewhat nullified by loam.

[meatpipeline]

I noticed you have a mountain (plus fetchlands) in the deck, plenty of discard outlets but no Anger.  Did you test Anger?  If so what made you opt to remove it from the deck?

-Phil

[Lunar]

3xDeath Spark is frickin savage...very nice...

I always run at least one death spark when possible in bazaar decks I use...very interesting deck man...

[ReAnimator]

I noticed you have a mountain (plus fetchlands) in the deck, plenty of discard outlets but no Anger.  Did you test Anger?  If so what made you opt to remove it from the deck?

-Phil

I like anger a lot but there are a few problems with him:

•In what situation would you ever tutor him up over anything else? If you spend a turn tutoring for him you sort of negate his speediness.
•If you aren't going to tutor him how many would you need to run to consistently find him on turn 2? Where do you find the room to include 3-4 angers?
•He does nothing in some of your matchups. Deathspark has no targets in some matches but can still be used as a bad squee, anger has no second function.
•Anger needs a mountain in play. In the early game vs. any non welder deck you don't want to tutor up a dual, you want basics (usually). How many mountains would you need to run to make him effective early?

Anger will speed up your kill by a turn (sometimes more) but a Duress or wasteland will usually slow down your opponent by a turn too and they are never dead (usually).

As for crop rotation
It is definitly the most asked about card. Where do you find the space? I think it should probably end up in here i just don't know where. As Zomar pointed out sometimes the tutors end up being dead (Bizare for sure) so I am hesitant to add it.  If someone wants to test it and tell me if it made a difference and what they cut for it i would be greatful (I'm busy with school so i am not going to test any changes for a while but i will take someones word for it if they say it's good.)
I do think that the crop rotation is better than imperial seal but it probably isn't better than vamp.

-Andrew
(anyone else have problems with the spell checker? buggy as hell for me)

[Lunar]

I cant use the spellchecker here...it makes my spelling 10xs worse in the long run...

[ReAnimator]

A fellow I have been chatting with on PM's just ran an anger list of this in detroit to a 4-0-1 finnish in the swiss! hopefully he'll post his mini report here.

His meta has more stax so he was running Sacred Ground in the board, What are your thoughts on this? does it make the matchup better or is it still bad.

I was wondering what peoples thoughts were on Seeds of Innocence over Rack n Ruin? is the casting cost a big deal or is the potential to blow up everything just strictly better?

[asi]

I don't know whether this is a stupid idea, but seeing you run 15 creatures, about 18 cards that have an effect in your graveyard, full amount of bazzars, and being fond of its performance in Singleton&Extended, would you consider Golgari-Grave Troll? Milling 6 cards almost ensures you get a LftL (even if you cut one to include him) and sometimes, he'll just be the biggest creature on the board.

[Zomar]

A fellow I have been chatting with on PM's just ran an anger list of this in detroit to a 4-0-1 finnish in the swiss! hopefully he'll post his mini report here.

His meta has more stax so he was running Sacred Ground in the board, What are your thoughts on this? does it make the matchup better or is it still bad.

I was wondering what peoples thoughts were on Seeds of Innocence over Rack n Ruin? is the casting cost a big deal or is the potential to blow up everything just strictly better?

I've played sex for a really long time and one thing I've learned is that workshop decks completely can't recover from a seeds of innocence. It leaves them with absolutely nothing to work with. I don't believe I have ever lost a game after playing a seeds of innocence.

Both seeds of innocence and rack and ruin cost three, the double green in seeds will not be a struggle to get into play. If you have trouble playing one spell, it will be the same for the other. The problem is getting to 3 mana, or 4, or 5 if they have spheres out. But since often stax can't capitalize on it's lock pieces, it's very possible to get enough mana over time.


and you do have plenty of time.

[madmanmike25]

This seems like a zany deck(which i like) and as such i have a zany recommendation.  Have you considered adding abandon hope???  At first the card simply looks more mana intensive than last rites.  But read carefully.  Choose X cards!!!!  And yes they can be LANDS.  Think about casting this first turn with some acceleration, you pitching squees and such to get rid of a few lands.

ok, thats my 2 cents.  sorry if my suggestion blows.

[Dante]

This seems like a zany deck(which i like) and as such i have a zany recommendation.  Have you considered adding abandon hope???  At first the card simply looks more mana intensive than last rites.  But read carefully.  Choose X cards!!!!  And yes they can be LANDS.  Think about casting this first turn with some acceleration, you pitching squees and such to get rid of a few lands.

ok, thats my 2 cents.  sorry if my suggestion blows.

If it didn't have X in the casting cost and it was just "discard X to cause opp to discard X" or something like that, it would be great, but in order for it to really be used, you need like 4-5 mana.  There are better things for a deck to do with 4 mana I think.  If the deck were more focused on resource denial, it might not be a bad plan.

[Jacob Orlove]

Last Rites is Abandon Hope without that annoying X.

[GMontag]

One suggestion that I haven't seen mentioned in the thread yet is Vampire Hounds. Most of the cards you are going to be discarding are creature cards (Squee, Horror, Rootwalla). Replacing Mongrels with Vampire Hounds doubles the damage you're doing and you still have ZI and Bazaar as discard outlets for Death Sparks, etc.

[yespuhyren]

Andrew hasn't posted back, but at Ontario Vintage Champs yesterday, he went 0-3, and not sure after that.  It is a great deck, just didn't work for him.

[bebe]

I did the same. i won every first game and then just couldn't bring it home games two and three although I scared a few people. Every game I brought my opponent to 4-7 life and  LOST! I've now tweaked the deck in the hope that this will not happen again. Ontario Vintage had too many rogue builds and a lot of aggro (very loss was to goblin or fish builds which I tatally did not expect - I really expected mostly combo and workshop. Strangely those decks did win in the end but I never faced them which my deck was designed to beat. I'll make changes and then see only combo and lose again. Sigh ...

[yespuhyren]

I also played random shop aggro, made at 10:30 AM for the 12:45 registration time.  I lost to landstill where I usually win, but even so landed in 11/12/13th place or something like that.

[Zomar]

One suggestion that I haven't seen mentioned in the thread yet is Vampire Hounds. Most of the cards you are going to be discarding are creature cards (Squee, Horror, Rootwalla). Replacing Mongrels with Vampire Hounds doubles the damage you're doing and you still have ZI and Bazaar as discard outlets for Death Sparks, etc.

Mongrel is going to be better because he is cheaper to cast. Bazaar and three casting cost things don't work well together. Missing a land drop because of Bazaar sucks. Mongrel is better overall because you can discard anything to him. The extra damage vampire hounds may provide is going to be negated by the lack of speed he has.

[NicolaeAlmighty]

A fellow I have been chatting with on PM's just ran an Anger list of this in detroit to a 4-0-1 finnish in the swiss! hopefully he'll post his mini report here.

His meta has more stax so he was running Sacred Ground in the board, What are your thoughts on this? does it make the matchup better or is it still bad.

He's referring to me. Sorry I've been behind on posting, but well... College life is tough.

He and I have been having lots of conversations about the deck, but frankly our opinions are widely different. Here's the list I played that I went 4-0-1 with:

Dawn of the Dead

4 Zombie Infestation

4 Basking Rootwalla
4 Wild Mongrel
4 Squee, Goblin Nabob
3 Krovikan Horror

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
3 Life From The Loam
2 Death Spark
2 Anger
1 Crop Rotation
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Entomb

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby

4 Bazaar Of Baghdad
4 Bayou
3 Badlands
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Wasteland
1 Swamp
1 Barbarian Ring
1 Strip Mine

Weird, eh? Lets talk about some card choices here then I'll get to my report.

Crop Rotation: Where's that damn Bazaar? The deck kind of needs it last I checked. This finds it and is a great tempo card when facing an opposing Wasteland activation.

Entomb: Entomb? Am I crazy? He thought I was a bit off my hook, but seeing as how I ran Anger, I needed a way to tutor it out (like he originally mentioned when debating Anger). Also, I found it is AMAZING with Life from the Loam! Whether I'm getting a Life to get my engine going, or a Strip to get the lock together... Entomb isn't bad at all. Worst comes to worst, I can always pitch it to Bazaar if it's not useful.

Anger: Here is where he and I split. I think Haste is what gave me the power I needed. I'll get to my report below but honestly there was a game where a guy went Orchard -> Mox -> Oath. After getting rid of the token (yaaay Therapy!), my only way to win was to get out Infest and wait until I had the card advantage needed to alpha strike his ass to Hell! Also, I did manage to bust him with an angry Mongrel twice, then sac it to Therapy. Haste is too powerful to ignore... Naturally I had to change up the mana base a wink, but everyone loves a few more Badlands...

Everything else is pretty basic. My sideboard was for my metagame, but I'll show you anyways:
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Ray Of Revelation
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Artifact Mutation
2 Sacred Ground
2 Pithing Needle
2 Rack and Ruin
1 Plateau

Alrighty, everythings set and ready... Lets see the report.

Round 1: Dragon
First off, this wasn't just "Dragon". This was THE MAN. If anyone out there has heard of Ben Perry... Wow. He is THE MAN.
Game 1
I hit him early with some discard, like it mattered. He combos out and I... pout.
Game 2:
I'm on the play, and check out this opening play:
Bazaar -> Activate, draw 2, discard Ray of Revelation, Squee, Swamp. Play Mox Emerald, Tormod's Crypt. Pass. He sits and thinks about it... Draws his card for the turn, and scoops. Too much hate for him.
Game 3:
He has a slow start, but plays a Pithing Needle naming Tormod's Crypt then Bazaar! Doh! I didn't see that coming, seeing as how he has just shut down his engine too... Or did he? He has Compulsion... Good for me! Now I have the time to find an answer. And I did... Pithing Needle! I play it naming Compulsion... well... I suppose that wasn't a true answer... but at least now I have the time I need to start doin ma thang. He has a Sliver Queen in his yard, so I play my final Needle naming Queen. I get an Infestation out and begin making my army. He reanimates Queen... I have the Ray, but I don't care. The thing ain't got Trample and I have an infinite source of Zombies. He Intuitions for 2x Verdant Force and Dragon, but it's too late. This game is over as the angry Zombies run him over.

1-0

Round 2: Oath
Game 1:
I never knew what he was playing! I thought it was Gifts or Slaver... I saw Mana Drains and a Thirst before an angry bunch of Zombies smashed his face... I boarded in Red Blasts and Tormod's Crypt. Wasn't sure enough to bring in Needles or Rays.
Game 2:
Here we go- he goes Orchard, Mox, Oath... Shit! Wait, I'm ok. I have Cabal Therapy and Wasteland in my hand... Wait... That's not good... But luckily I'm savage and topdeck a Jet. Damn. There goes the Orchard and the token. What now? I play the waiting game. I begin to build resources via Life/ Bazaar. I get a MASSIVE hasted Mongrel swing in, then sac it to another Therapy. I play an Infestation, which he lets resolve. He's at 6 life, but after dumping my hand I'm low on fuel. I only have a Squee and Horror to work with... A turn later, I make my Zombie during the end of his second main, then my final one during his turn. He regrets not countering the Infestation... Duh.

2-0

Round 3: Metalworker Combo
Game 1:
This deck is mainly Suicide Virus with Genesis Chambers/ Staff of Domination thrown in. I get him to seven before he combos out via Staff/ Metalworker. The weird thing is, he kept drawing tons and tons of cards looking for Staff, when he had a Ravager and a Trike... and enough mana to gattling gun me to death. He won either way.
Game 2:
I bring in my normal artifact hate and Needles... He brought in Chalice of the void. I keep a hand with a Rack and Ruin and Bazaar in it... And enough lands for both. I figure I have time. He goes turn 1 Chalice for 2, AND Metalworker! ... Irritating, but not impossible to deal with. I play another land and use Bazaar and pass. He plays Staff of Domination with 2 cards in his hand... This is bad. I draw my card for the turn, play a land... and Bazaar hoping to find a Mox or Lotus to play that damn Rack and Ruin... No luck!! Damn! If he draws an Artifact I'm screwed. I pass and pray... Long tension and anticipation during upkeep... He draws... an Ancient Tomb! Whew! I play my land, Rack and Ruin the Staff/ Metalworker, and proceed to beat him with Basking Rootwalla! Too close!
Game 3:
Over before it began. Time was called before we resolved mulligans.

2-0-1
Not a bad record for playing a Rogue deck in not only a proxy environment, but a very experienced and powerful environment.

Round 4: Oath... Again
Game 1:
Damn... I know this guy, and he's good. I've played and been smashed by him many a time. Real nice guy though, so I don't mind losing if I should. This game was ridiculous! I mean honestly, he had such a strong opening hand but then his deck crapped like a million lands on him... He couldn't find an Oath for the life of him! My deck was being very slow, though... so he had time. I finally got out an Infestation, but was using double Bazaar activations (can you believe we can support such crazyness so easily??) so my hand was depleted. At one point he had one card in hand and kept counting his land. I worry he might have an Akroma in his hand so I Therapy him naming her... He reveals the Boros Angel. Crap... He's one mana short! I can't flash back till next turn so I pass and once again pray. He topdecks... a Flooded Strand! Crap! He passes, though. As confused as I am, I go to my turn, Flashback Therapy and get rid of it. I ask him why he didn't play it... Turns out he was short a Red mana, and Flooded Strand can't quite fetch that one out... Irony! Zombies finished this one shortly after.
Game 2:
He gets another strong start with Tropical -> Mox -> Oath. I have Ray of Revelation in my hand with Bazaar, but he doesn't have an Orchard so I wait. I get my engine going, hitting him left and right with discard. His hand is depleted save one Vampiric Tutor. I finally hardcast Ray of Revelation on his Oath so I can get my beats going. He Vamps in response... Starts to go for something... Asks to read Ray... Curses and goes for something else. He got and played a Chalice for 2! Bold! Without my Infestations or Mongrels, I'm forced to go to the extreme- Squee. I play and attack with an angry Squee! The best part is, I kept flashing back Therapy to keep his hand depleted, only to return and replay the Squee and attack over and over! I got out a Rootwalla and a Horror and he scooped. Nice.

3-0-1

Round 5: Tog
He's undefeated, but offers to concede to me so that he's not top seat (he didn't want to play who was last, apparently). I gladly accept, and thats it for the swiss.

I'm 4-0-1 going into T8 and I'm paired against the Dragon player from Round 1! Score! I know that my hate can outweigh his strategy... Then the judge calls me in. I get a game loss for forgetting to put a Mox Ruby on my decklist. Damn. Now I have to start as though it were Game 2, but without sideboarding. I'm screwed. The one friggin opponent that it is damn near impossible to beat game one and I screw myself over! Oh well... The day taught me that the deck was the one for me.

Some thoughts:

I've sinced changed some things in the deck... I dropped Barbarian Ring in favor of a Forest. I'm currently trying to find something better for Wild Mongrel... cause as fun as he is, if I have a hand with only him and no Bazaar, he's not that amazing. I have something in mind, but I'll keep it to myself until I playtest some more. I've PMed the maker with the idea, but I'm not sure how much he'll like it. I also want to fit in the fourth Duress... somewhere.

The Sideboard needs tweaking too. Those Blasts need to go! I never have the mana open, or they're never around when I need them. Maybe another Needle and... a Sacred Ground. Stax is huge in my meta... Must be prepared. That's all for now! Any questions, let me know and I'll try and answer them. Let's keep this thread alive with new ideas!

[Chamelet]

This deck is a lot of fun and I'm trying to throw together a budget version.
Can anyone suggest a replacement for Bazaars? Even if i have to splash another color?

Thanks in advance,

Grim

Cephalid Coliseum can replace Bazaar, but it's SLOW.

I would try a Riftstone Portal, so your Bazaars can add mana too.
Crop Rotation is also great, since it makes your Draw engine more reliable and dodges wasteland, which is important.
And the big thing: have you ever thought of adding 4 CotV? It's a great tempo card that can slow your opp down while you beat him to death. Maybe taking out 2 Last Rites, 1 Therapy and 1 Death Spark... Bazaar has also a great sinergy with CotV since you can discard your unuseful stuff at will.